In message <ujfmq3$auhr$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023 00:26:27,
Daniel65 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>J. P. Gilliver wrote on 20/11/23 9:07 pm:
[]
>> I could see justification for the whole planet to use the same
>>clock;
>> it'll never happen, though, as for any one suggestion, there will be
>> far more people/places/whatever who would have to change than not. To
>> a small extent, GMT (or UCT I think) _is_ that, and is used in
>> scientific circles.
>
>GMT used in Communications cycles as well ..... and renamed to Zulu for
>Military Communications as well!!

I think that originated from GMT being "+0000", or zero offset - and
zulu being the international phonetic alphabet for Z.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The first banjo solo I played was actually just a series of mistakes. In fact
it was all the mistakes I knew at the time. - Tim Dowling, RT2015/6/20-26

On 20/11/2023 12:45, Java Jive wrote:
>
> On 19/11/2023 23:59, Java Jive wrote:
>>
>> On 19/11/2023 22:56, Paul wrote:
>>>
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
>>>
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
>>>
>>>
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
>>>
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
>>
>>
>> I've left them going on my NAS, will report back to-morrow.
>
> All failed, at least one I checked was indeed around the 2GB mark.

We seem to need more information to find out what really has gone / is
going wrong here, so ...

1) The logical approach:

The following link gives us the captures for these URLS ...

https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102*

.... and for the first file of your two pairs of download links above ...

https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip

.... there were 2 captures - Dec 16, 2019 and Jul 12, 2022 - with 0
duplicates and 2 uniques, so an alternative URL for the same file is ...

https://web.archive.org/web/20220712131421/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip

.... but that failed immediately.

Similarly, for the second file ...

https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip

... there were 8 captures with 6 duplicates and 2 uniques, so alternative
URLs for the same download are ...

https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211351/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190830062021/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190830062208/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190830105630/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190831051451/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20191127032205/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20220712131429/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip

.... of which the last also failed immediately.

So, in short, it doesn't look as though any of these so-called captures
actually worked, and the resulting downloads are corrupt and useless.

2) The brain-storm approach, wherein I throw a thought out there in
case someone else can pick it up and run with it:

It's not going to help with the now corrupted downloads, but if, as
claimed by the index, the truncated files are exactly 2GB-1 bytes long,
how did that happen? If it had been 4GB-1 then that would have been
explicable as someone using a FAT32 storage media somewhere in the
chain, but 2GB-1? I know of no disk format or other simple explanation
for that. For reference, the maximum file sizes supported by different
disk formats are listed here ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_size#Maximum_size

.... but while there are 2GB limits - FAT16 without LFS, HFS, and HPFS
- there are no 2GB-1 limits.

ISTR that Samba on Linux had a 2GB or so file size limit in v2, but that
was over a decade ago, maybe even two decades ago, surely no-one in any
serious setup would still be using v2?

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
<daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>John Hall wrote on 20/11/23 8:38 am:
>> In message <ujdo3p$3u7fg$1@dont-email.me>, Bob F
>><bobnospam@gmail.com> writes
>
><Snip>
>
>>> So how is that affected by daylight savings time?
>> Not art all, since we are dealing with time as shown on the clock.
>>Even when daylight savings time isn't in force, noon on the clock
>>rarely precisely corresponds to when the sun is due south.
>
>Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
>south' at Noon!! ;-P
<snip>

Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
--
John Hall
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 08:55:48 +0000, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <an3ilitnlcet80mq984nuk8402o61jcjd0@4ax.com>, Char Jackson
><none@none.invalid> writes
>>On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 10:13:35 +0000, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
>>><daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>>>>J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
>>>>> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
>>>>>11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes []
>>>>>> 38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023
>>>>>> 12:00 AM for 1 day).
>>>>> [] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
>>>>
>>>>Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
>>>>'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
>>>
>>>I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
>>>uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour
>>>clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any
>>>ambiguity.
>>
>>I don't think I've ever met anyone (until now?) who found 12 AM and 12 PM to be
>>ambiguous. Interesting.
>>
>
>AM stands for "ante meridiem" and PM for "post meridiem", i.e. before
>and after midday respectively. But 12 noon is neither before nor after,
>so logically it should be 12 M. Midnight is both 12 hours before and 12
>hours post, but I suppose it would be more logical to call it 12 PM (or
>maybe 0 AM).

I think most people learned how to tell time when they were young kids, long
before any ambiguity could set in. Learning the difference between 12A and 12P
is part of that. It's like learning the difference between a red traffic light
and a green one. There's nothing inherently logical about the color assignments,
but we learn them and we carry on.

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
><daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>>John Hall wrote on 20/11/23 8:38 am:
>>> In message <ujdo3p$3u7fg$1@dont-email.me>, Bob F
>>><bobnospam@gmail.com> writes
>>
>><Snip>
>>
>>>> So how is that affected by daylight savings time?
>>> Not art all, since we are dealing with time as shown on the clock.
>>>Even when daylight savings time isn't in force, noon on the clock
>>>rarely precisely corresponds to when the sun is due south.
>>
>>Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
>>south' at Noon!! ;-P
><snip>
>
>Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?

I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would describe
the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say it was due
south.

J. P. Gilliver wrote on 21/11/23 1:11 am:
> In message <ujfmq3$auhr$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023
> 00:26:27, Daniel65 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>> J. P. Gilliver wrote on 20/11/23 9:07 pm:
> []
>>> I could see justification for the whole planet to use the same
>>> clock; it'll never happen, though, as for any one suggestion,
>>> there will be far more people/places/whatever who would have to
>>> change than not. To a small extent, GMT (or UCT I think) _is_
>>> that, and is used in scientific circles.
>>
>> GMT used in Communications cycles as well ..... and renamed to
>> Zulu for Military Communications as well!!
>
> I think that originated from GMT being "+0000", or zero offset - and
> zulu being the international phonetic alphabet for Z.

Correct .... but, in a Military situation, where you could be
communicating across Time Zones, without actually knowing what the
originating and destination time zones are, Zulu (i.e. GMT) was often
the reference Time zone with both ends of the Comms link making the
appropriate adjustment to 'Local' Time!!

Here in Victoria, Australia (bottom end of the globe!!), we are
currently in Daylight Savings Time, so would be using 'Lima' time
references but our 'normal' Time Zone is 'Kilo'
--
Daniel

John Hall wrote on 21/11/23 5:23 am:
> In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
> <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>> John Hall wrote on 20/11/23 8:38 am:
>>> In message <ujdo3p$3u7fg$1@dont-email.me>, Bob F
>>> <bobnospam@gmail.com> writes
>>
>> <Snip>
>>
>>>> So how is that affected by daylight savings time?
>>>  Not art all, since we are dealing with time as shown on the clock.
>>> Even when daylight savings time isn't in force, noon on the clock
>>> rarely precisely corresponds to when the sun is due south.
>>
>> Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
>> south' at Noon!! ;-P
> <snip>
>
> Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?

Correct!! .... The Great Southern Land .... Australia
--
Daniel

In message <ujhsp1$p740$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023 20:20:34,
Daniel65 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>J. P. Gilliver wrote on 21/11/23 1:11 am:
>> In message <ujfmq3$auhr$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023
>>00:26:27, Daniel65 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
[]
>>> GMT used in Communications cycles as well ..... and renamed to
>>> Zulu for Military Communications as well!!
>> I think that originated from GMT being "+0000", or zero offset - and
>>zulu being the international phonetic alphabet for Z.
>
>Correct .... but, in a Military situation, where you could be
>communicating across Time Zones, without actually knowing what the
>originating and destination time zones are, Zulu (i.e. GMT) was often
>the reference Time zone with both ends of the Comms link making the
>appropriate adjustment to 'Local' Time!!
>
>Here in Victoria, Australia (bottom end of the globe!!), we are
>currently in Daylight Savings Time, so would be using 'Lima' time
>references but our 'normal' Time Zone is 'Kilo'

Interesting: I knew about Z for zero, but didn't know all the other time
zones had a letter too.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

science is not intended to be foolproof. Science is about crawling toward the
truth over time. - Scott Adams, 2015-2-2

In message <38eoli9gt1t7jqlao7duhnckl4sh1186tb@4ax.com> at Mon, 20 Nov
2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
>><daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
[]
>>>Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P
>><snip>
>>
>>Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
>
>I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would describe
>the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say it was due
>south.
>
It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23½ºN),
and then on only two days a year.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

science is not intended to be foolproof. Science is about crawling toward the
truth over time. - Scott Adams, 2015-2-2

J. P. Gilliver wrote on 21/11/23 9:08 pm:
> In message <ujhsp1$p740$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023
> 20:20:34, Daniel65 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>> J. P. Gilliver wrote on 21/11/23 1:11 am:
>>> In message <ujfmq3$auhr$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023
>>> 00:26:27, Daniel65 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
> []
>>>> GMT used in Communications cycles as well ..... and renamed to
>>>> Zulu for Military Communications as well!!
>>> I think that originated from GMT being "+0000", or zero offset -
>>> and zulu being the international phonetic alphabet for Z.
>>
>> Correct .... but, in a Military situation, where you could be
>> communicating across Time Zones, without actually knowing what the
>> originating and destination time zones are, Zulu (i.e. GMT) was
>> often the reference Time zone with both ends of the Comms link
>> making the appropriate adjustment to 'Local' Time!!
>>
>> Here in Victoria, Australia (bottom end of the globe!!), we are
>> currently in Daylight Savings Time, so would be using 'Lima' time
>> references but our 'normal' Time Zone is 'Kilo'
>
> Interesting: I knew about Z for zero, but didn't know all the other
> time zones had a letter too.

Yeap .... 26 letters .... drop 'O' and 'I' to limit confusion with '0'
and '1' ... leaves you with 24 letters .... for 24 time zones.
--
Daniel

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>In message <38eoli9gt1t7jqlao7duhnckl4sh1186tb@4ax.com> at Mon, 20 Nov
>2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>>On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
>>><daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>[]
>>>>Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
>>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
>>
>>I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would describe
>>the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say it was due
>>south.
>>
>It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23½ºN),
>and then on only two days a year.

The nice thing about being well north of there is that the sun is overhead at
midday every day of the year. None of this due south business. ;-)

In message <ofrqlidg6aftkj03vts05255cvg6uil099@4ax.com> at Tue, 21 Nov
2023 20:59:33, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <38eoli9gt1t7jqlao7duhnckl4sh1186tb@4ax.com> at Mon, 20 Nov
>>2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>>>On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall
>>><john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
>>>><daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>>[]
>>>>>Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
>>>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
>>>
>>>I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would
>>>describe
>>>the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say it was due
>>>south.
>>>
>>It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23½ºN),
>>and then on only two days a year.
>
>The nice thing about being well north of there is that the sun is overhead at
>midday every day of the year. None of this due south business. ;-)
>
I think you're using the word "overhead" differently to me. Do you mean
"above the horizon"? I mean "directly above me", which it never is for
anyone not between the two tropics.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You know what the big secret about posh people is? Most of them are lovely.
- Richard Osman, RT 2016/7/9-15

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 05:02:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>In message <ofrqlidg6aftkj03vts05255cvg6uil099@4ax.com> at Tue, 21 Nov
>2023 20:59:33, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>>On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <38eoli9gt1t7jqlao7duhnckl4sh1186tb@4ax.com> at Mon, 20 Nov
>>>2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>>>>On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall
>>>><john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
>>>>><daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>>>[]
>>>>>>Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
>>>>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P
>>>>><snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
>>>>
>>>>I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would
>>>>describe
>>>>the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say it was due
>>>>south.
>>>>
>>>It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23½ºN),
>>>and then on only two days a year.
>>
>>The nice thing about being well north of there is that the sun is overhead at
>>midday every day of the year. None of this due south business. ;-)
>>
>I think you're using the word "overhead" differently to me. Do you mean
>"above the horizon"? I mean "directly above me", which it never is for
>anyone not between the two tropics.

We're definitely using 'overhead' differently. For me, it's when the sun is
approximately at its highest point in the sky for the day. Your usage doesn't
make sense to me, and I assume you'd say the same about me/mine.

In message <3merlitvuo7i8a6sjoa9vnjfdglhp6djso@4ax.com>, Char Jackson
<none@none.invalid> writes
>On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 05:02:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ofrqlidg6aftkj03vts05255cvg6uil099@4ax.com> at Tue, 21 Nov
>>2023 20:59:33, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>>>On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"
>>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <38eoli9gt1t7jqlao7duhnckl4sh1186tb@4ax.com> at Mon, 20 Nov
>>>>2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>>>>>On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall
>>>>><john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
>>>>>><daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>>>>[]
>>>>>>>Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
>>>>>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P
>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would
>>>>>describe
>>>>>the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say
>>>>>it was due
>>>>>south.
>>>>>
>>>>It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23½ºN),
>>>>and then on only two days a year.
>>>
>>>The nice thing about being well north of there is that the sun is overhead at
>>>midday every day of the year. None of this due south business. ;-)
>>>
>>I think you're using the word "overhead" differently to me. Do you mean
>>"above the horizon"? I mean "directly above me", which it never is for
>>anyone not between the two tropics.
>
>We're definitely using 'overhead' differently. For me, it's when the sun is
>approximately at its highest point in the sky for the day. Your usage doesn't
>make sense to me, and I assume you'd say the same about me/mine.
>

I'm with the other John on this. Would you say that an aeroplane was
"overhead" if it was merely at its highest angular elevation above your
horizon? Also, even by your definition, if you are north of the Arctic
Circle then the sun won't be "overhead" at midday every day of the year,
as for part of the year it will never be visible.
--
John Hall
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)

In message <3merlitvuo7i8a6sjoa9vnjfdglhp6djso@4ax.com> at Wed, 22 Nov
2023 02:38:39, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
[]
>We're definitely using 'overhead' differently. For me, it's when the sun is
>approximately at its highest point in the sky for the day. Your usage doesn't
>make sense to me, and I assume you'd say the same about me/mine.
>
Ah. Some people add a word - "directly overhead". I'd call your version
"at its highest", not "overhead".
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Do ministers do more than lay people?

On 11/22/2023 5:28 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <3merlitvuo7i8a6sjoa9vnjfdglhp6djso@4ax.com> at Wed, 22 Nov 2023 02:38:39, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
> []
>> We're definitely using 'overhead' differently. For me, it's when the sun is
>> approximately at its highest point in the sky for the day. Your usage doesn't
>> make sense to me, and I assume you'd say the same about me/mine.
>>
> Ah. Some people add a word - "directly overhead". I'd call your version "at its highest", not "overhead".

https://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/ua/sunandseasons.html

"If you live at a mid-northern latitude, you always see the noon sun somewhere in the southern sky."

There are a few terms like "zenith" and "meridian" on the diagram.

https://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/ua/SunOnCelestialSphere.png

The stick man in the diagram, is from a country known as Cartesia.
And he is just visiting the diagram, and does not live there. Presumably
the students in the Weber physics lecture hall, are from Cartesia too.

Paul

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 10:11:48 +0000, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <3merlitvuo7i8a6sjoa9vnjfdglhp6djso@4ax.com>, Char Jackson
><none@none.invalid> writes
>>On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 05:02:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <ofrqlidg6aftkj03vts05255cvg6uil099@4ax.com> at Tue, 21 Nov
>>>2023 20:59:33, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>>>>On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"
>>>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <38eoli9gt1t7jqlao7duhnckl4sh1186tb@4ax.com> at Mon, 20 Nov
>>>>>2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>>>>>>On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall
>>>>>><john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
>>>>>>><daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>>>>>[]
>>>>>>>>Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
>>>>>>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P
>>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would
>>>>>>describe
>>>>>>the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say
>>>>>>it was due
>>>>>>south.
>>>>>>
>>>>>It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23½ºN),
>>>>>and then on only two days a year.
>>>>
>>>>The nice thing about being well north of there is that the sun is overhead at
>>>>midday every day of the year. None of this due south business. ;-)
>>>>
>>>I think you're using the word "overhead" differently to me. Do you mean
>>>"above the horizon"? I mean "directly above me", which it never is for
>>>anyone not between the two tropics.
>>
>>We're definitely using 'overhead' differently. For me, it's when the sun is
>>approximately at its highest point in the sky for the day. Your usage doesn't
>>make sense to me, and I assume you'd say the same about me/mine.
>>
>
>I'm with the other John on this.

Could be a UK thing, I suppose.

>Would you say that an aeroplane was
>"overhead" if it was merely at its highest angular elevation above your
>horizon?

Of course, but it's not necessary to stray away from the example of the sun.
Each of us is aware that the sun rises, moves through the sky, and eventually
sets.

>Also, even by, your definition, if you are north of the Arctic
>Circle then the sun won't be "overhead" at midday every day of the year,
>as for part of the year it will never be visible.

Another stretch.

On 19 Nov 2023 19:34:29 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

>Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On 17 Nov 2023 16:16:59 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> >> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
>> >> that it may be irreplaceable.
>> >>
>> >> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
>> >> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
>> >> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
>> >> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
>> >> the last 30 years.
>> >
>> > 64-bit Windows systems can run 32-bit software/programs just fine, so
>> >I think you mean you (also) have *16-bit* software/programs which you
>> >need to run. Correct?
>>
>> Yes, and 8-bit ones too. 32-bit Windows runs those just fine, at least
>> all the ones I use regularly. There are some it doesn't, but that's a
>> hardware rather than an O/S problem, something to do with clock speed.
>> Programs written in TurboPascal, for example, won't run on faster
>> machines.
>
> "8-bit ones" sounds a bit strange, because all (IBM-like) PCs have
>always been 16-bit. But perhaps you mean byte-level interpretive code or
>some such. Can you give some more details about these "8-bit ones"?

I think early programs running on IBM PC DOS or MS DOS were 8-bit,
running on 8088 processors. The 286 and 386 ones were 16-bit.

>
> Anyway, about this software, has it been written for Windows 1.x, 2.x,
>3.0, 3.1, etc. and was running on 32-bit Windows 7? If so, WineVDM
>mentioned by Ralph Fox may be a solution. Like Ralph, I have no
>experience with WineVDM, but looking at the documentation, it seems that
>it might fit the bill.
>
> Another question: Are these really windows programs, i.e. GUI programs
>which actually use windows and run in windows (note: lower case 'w',
>i.e. the technology, not the (Microsoft) prodoct) or are they programs
>which may use graphics, but run in a Command Prompt window?

Now sure what you mean there.

One Windows program, a Calendar program, which runs in 32-bit Windows,
but not 64-bit, so it must have been written for 16-bit Windows.

Anyway, I have now acquired a 2nd-hand Dell with a 30-bit Windows 10
OS, and my DOS programs appear to run on it, so I'm not going to need
VirtualBox just yet.

But thanks to everyone who replied on the Windows question (the time
discussion was less useful).

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 03:17:28 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>Also, if you go the virtual machine route, you have to be careful to
>make backups of your virtual machine file. Microsoft does not provide
>high quality support for activation issues with virtual machines. You
>can ask the poster "T" (todd), regarding what happened to his
>virtual machine that was activated. He could not get Microsoft to help
>him, and restore his activation. Backing up the container,
>is to provide a means to roll back and regain your activation.
>Not all activation issues can be fixed that way, but some of them can.

Once again, thanks for all the information, and especially this. Saved
for if I ever have to go the VM route.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:59:56 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

>On 17/11/2023 13:02, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
>> that it may be irreplaceable.
>>
>> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
>> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
>> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
>> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
>> the last 30 years.
>>
>> People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
>> Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
>> money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
>> someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
>> well they work.
>I'm late into this discussion, but from a skim through just now, I don't
>think the following has been asked:
>
>Have you any disk-image style back-up of your previous system that was
>stolen - eg an image made by Ghost, Clonezilla, etc?
>
>If you have, using that as the source to make a working Virtual Machine
>(VM, and I'm using the term generically rather than implying any brand)
>should be easier than trying to re-install your original system and all
>its software from scratch, even supposing that you actually have every
>single installation media involved and that they all still work.

Yes, I do have a couple of Acronis backups. I'll try to keep them in
case I ever do have to try to install them on a vitrual machine.

>
>Anyone else here tried to use 20-year old floppies recently? No, I
>thought not, most won't even have access to a floppy drive any more! I
>can't remember details now, but a few months ago I was trying to create
>a W98 boot USB stick for running imaging software, and for some obscure
>reason now forgotten needed to perform a 'sys' command to do it, and
>*none* of the many W98 boot floppies I had still worked! Eventually I
>found just one floppy disk that still worked well enough to allow an old
>floppy boot image to be written to it, so that I could boot from it and
>run the 'sys' command.

When I got a Win 98 machine back in 1999 I copied all the floppies and
stiffies I could find to a CD-ROM, and I think I have a copy of that
in a directory on the hard drive of my XP machine!

Oh, and the 2nd-hand Win 10 32-bit machine I goes (see earlier
messages) *does* have a DVD drive, which my wife's Windows 11 machine
doesn't have, so that's a big plus. Om the other hand, it doesn't have
a card slot, so getting photos off my camera will be a bit of a
schlep.

>
>Home-made CDs & DVDs tend to degrade over time too.
>
>Some of your other questions seem to have been answered, but
>particularly I can confirm that through the VM you can access USB and
>network hardware, etc, and areas of the host hard disk outside of the
>VM, though you may have to alter some settings from their defaults to do
>so. However, I only ever used a VM to test my website on old browsers,
>which is hardly going to test the sort of functionality that you need,
>so I'll stop around here.
>
>Note Paul's point though, that if you want to use the in-built Microsoft
>VM functionality, you need to be running a Pro version of W10 or W11,
>not a Home version.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 12/29/2023 3:07 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:59:56 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 17/11/2023 13:02, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>
>>> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
>>> that it may be irreplaceable.
>>>
>>> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
>>> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
>>> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
>>> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
>>> the last 30 years.
>>>
>>> People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
>>> Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
>>> money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
>>> someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
>>> well they work.
>> I'm late into this discussion, but from a skim through just now, I don't
>> think the following has been asked:
>>
>> Have you any disk-image style back-up of your previous system that was
>> stolen - eg an image made by Ghost, Clonezilla, etc?
>>
>> If you have, using that as the source to make a working Virtual Machine
>> (VM, and I'm using the term generically rather than implying any brand)
>> should be easier than trying to re-install your original system and all
>> its software from scratch, even supposing that you actually have every
>> single installation media involved and that they all still work.
>
> Yes, I do have a couple of Acronis backups. I'll try to keep them in
> case I ever do have to try to install them on a vitrual machine.
>
>>
>> Anyone else here tried to use 20-year old floppies recently? No, I
>> thought not, most won't even have access to a floppy drive any more! I
>> can't remember details now, but a few months ago I was trying to create
>> a W98 boot USB stick for running imaging software, and for some obscure
>> reason now forgotten needed to perform a 'sys' command to do it, and
>> *none* of the many W98 boot floppies I had still worked! Eventually I
>> found just one floppy disk that still worked well enough to allow an old
>> floppy boot image to be written to it, so that I could boot from it and
>> run the 'sys' command.
>
> When I got a Win 98 machine back in 1999 I copied all the floppies and
> stiffies I could find to a CD-ROM, and I think I have a copy of that
> in a directory on the hard drive of my XP machine!
>
> Oh, and the 2nd-hand Win 10 32-bit machine I goes (see earlier
> messages) *does* have a DVD drive, which my wife's Windows 11 machine
> doesn't have, so that's a big plus. Om the other hand, it doesn't have
> a card slot, so getting photos off my camera will be a bit of a
> schlep.

You can get SD card readers, in the form of USB sticks with a "hole in the side".
That's what I use for my camera. Mine will only read media up to 32GB in size.

https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/20-208-939-05.jpg

For a desktop computer, you can also get tray mount card readers, and those
have more holes in front, for more kinds of media. This one would fit, where the
floppy drive used to go. The connector on the end, fits over a 2x5 USB2 header
on the motherboard (9 gold pins, one location blank for keying purposes).

https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/20-192-038-S01.jpg

You can move files between machines, via file sharing.

You can also do point to point transfer with Bluetooth nano transmitters (plug
into a USB slot). That transfer is 75KB per second, which is roughly the
speed of the old floppies :-) I've even managed to set up a network connection
(with file sharing!) between two Bluetooth nano. I've been waiting years for
them to make that work, and I finally got a demo of it working here. This is not
a very practical hardware type (a kind of joke), but I wanted to see it work.

If you own Wifi modules and have no Wifi router, you can do point-to-point
transfer with Wifi Direct. On Windows 10, you click a button labeled "Mobile Hotspot",
and that makes one machine a kind of Wifi server. A second machine connects to it
using an SSID. The fun part, is figuring out what the randomly generated password
is for the Hotspot. The dialog with the information, would not appear at first,
but I eventually tracked the stupid thing down, and that gave the eight character
password. That might transfer at 7MB/sec, not exactly fast, but if you have no
other wiring for the computers, it is better than nothing.

For a slightly better transfer rate between PCs, the AQC107 is available now,
a 10GbE card, and you can do point to point wiring between two desktops with
these cards. This gives on the order of 1250 MB/sec or roughly "a CD per second"
transfer rate. Needs a PCI Express x4 slot in the PC (which many PCs will have).
Many PCs have an x16 slot for the video card and an x4 slot for toys. On an Optiplex,
you can't put your new network card, into the video slot (BIOS complains about your
taste in hardware).

https://www.sybausa.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=985

Windows 10 allows bridging from your Internet connection hardware, to
a second card like one of those. Then, either machine can reach the Internet
at the Internet relatively-slow speed. But if you want to connect private
files between machines at lightning speed, that is what those cards are for.

You might ask "why did you stop there?". Well, it's because 100 GbE cards (12GByte/sec)
are likely to be more expensive still, and at some point, the computer can
only absorb information so fast. Whereas those AQC107 break the $500 barrier
and finally provide cards at a better price. A typical usage scenario might be,
you are doing backups on one machine, and the backup drive is on the other
computer at the moment. The 10GbE link is easily fast enough for backups.

Paul

In message <umm32k$pije$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 29 Dec 2023 04:21:24,
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes
>On 12/29/2023 3:07 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
[]
>> Oh, and the 2nd-hand Win 10 32-bit machine I goes (see earlier
>> messages) *does* have a DVD drive, which my wife's Windows 11 machine
>> doesn't have, so that's a big plus. Om the other hand, it doesn't have
>> a card slot, so getting photos off my camera will be a bit of a
>> schlep.

Is it a laptop? If so, look very hard: they often _do_ have an SD slot,
but often recessed from the edge a bit, on the underside. I've known
people who own such a laptop and didn't know it had such a slot.
Otherwise:
>
>You can get SD card readers, in the form of USB sticks with a "hole in
>the side".
>That's what I use for my camera. Mine will only read media up to 32GB in size.
>
> https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/20-208-939-05.jpg
>
I used to use such for my old (but with a good lens) camera, that used
XD cards. (I _have_ seen such USB-stick-like things with multiple
slots.)

>For a desktop computer, you can also get tray mount card readers, and those
>have more holes in front, for more kinds of media. This one would fit,
>where the
>floppy drive used to go. The connector on the end, fits over a 2x5 USB2 header
>on the motherboard (9 gold pins, one location blank for keying purposes).
>
> https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/20-192-038-S01.jpg

They often have a USB slot in them too, so you aren't "wasting" a USB
header.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"You _are_ Zaphod Beeblebrox? _The_ Zaphod Beeblebrox?"
"No, just _a_ Zaphod Beeblebrox. I come in six-packs." (from the link episode)

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On 19 Nov 2023 19:34:29 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >> On 17 Nov 2023 16:16:59 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >> >> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
> >> >> that it may be irreplaceable.
> >> >>
> >> >> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
> >> >> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
> >> >> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
> >> >> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
> >> >> the last 30 years.
> >> >
> >> > 64-bit Windows systems can run 32-bit software/programs just fine, so
> >> >I think you mean you (also) have *16-bit* software/programs which you
> >> >need to run. Correct?
> >>
> >> Yes, and 8-bit ones too. 32-bit Windows runs those just fine, at least
> >> all the ones I use regularly. There are some it doesn't, but that's a
> >> hardware rather than an O/S problem, something to do with clock speed.
> >> Programs written in TurboPascal, for example, won't run on faster
> >> machines.
> >
> > "8-bit ones" sounds a bit strange, because all (IBM-like) PCs have
> >always been 16-bit. But perhaps you mean byte-level interpretive code or
> >some such. Can you give some more details about these "8-bit ones"?
>
> I think early programs running on IBM PC DOS or MS DOS were 8-bit,
> running on 8088 processors. The 286 and 386 ones were 16-bit.

The usual confusion about the 'bit-ness'! :-)

The 8088 is actually a 16-bit processor, because it has 16-bit
registers, etc.. But the width of the *data* bus is 8-bit. The
instruction set is named 'x86-16'.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8088>

Likewise, the 80286 is also a 16-bit processor, but with a 16-bit data
bus and also a 'x86-16' instruction set (with extensions).

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80286>

The 80386 is a 32-bit processor, with a 16-bit or 32-bit databus and a
'x86-32' instruction set.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I386>

As far as I know, none of the x86 processors were 8-bit processors.

So consequently, also the IBM PC DOS and MS-DOS programs were 16-bit.

[No longer relevant stuff deleted.]

> Anyway, I have now acquired a 2nd-hand Dell with a 30-bit Windows 10
> OS, and my DOS programs appear to run on it, so I'm not going to need
> VirtualBox just yet.

Great! Good outcome!

> But thanks to everyone who replied on the Windows question (the time
> discussion was less useful).

You're welcome.

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>I think early programs running on IBM PC DOS or MS DOS were 8-bit,
>running on 8088 processors. The 286 and 386 ones were 16-bit.

Not so. The original IBM-PCs were 16-bit machines. They used a kludge
to implement a 20-bit address space, allowing access to one megabyte
of RAM. You may remember that 340KB of that was reserved for the
operating system, leaving 640KB for user program.

1970's vintage machines, such as Cromemco, Zylog, etc, etc, were 8
bits. I'm a bit foggy on their addressing schemes, but at least some
of them could switch between banks of 64KB each.

The 80286 was basically 16-bits, but implemented "protected mode"
which allowed access to 16MB. Windows programers (if they're old
enough) may remember using "GlobalAlloc" and "GlobalFree" calls. Those
manipulated the Global Allocation Table, a 80286 protected mode
hardware kludge that kept track of all that RAM.

The 80386 was Intel's first true 32-bit machine. Windows 3.0 386
version ran in 16-bit 80286 protected mode though. It took a while for
Windows to catch up with 32-bit processors.

--
Tim Slattery
timslattery <at> utexas <dot> edu

[snip]

> They often have a USB slot in them too, so you aren't "wasting" a USB
> header.

The headers usually provide 2 ports. The card reader just needs 1 so its
not too hard to extend the other one to the outside of the case.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a
Christian." [Mark Twain, "Notebook"]