Rocksolid Light - comp.os.cpm

Re: PL/1 on CPM

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Subject: Re: PL/1 on CPM
From: david.given@gmail.com (David Given)
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by: David Given - Sat, 9 Jul 2022 19:06 UTC

On Friday, 3 June 2022 at 08:26:29 UTC+2, Udo Munk wrote:
[...]
> But obviously DRI used it them self for various stuff, some of the CP/M 3 tools were
> written in PL/1 and not PL/M.

Did the source code for any CP/M hosted versions of the PL/1 or PL/M compilers ever make it out anywhere?

The context is: now that I can use DR source in cpmish, I want to build the DR CP/M tools from scratch --- and they're mostly written in PL/M. It'd also be really nice to be able to include a proper compiler with the package.

I'm aware of ogdenpm's reconstruction of the Intel PL/M-80 compiler, but I'm a bit wary of those as I don't believe these were ever formally released by Intel, so the licensing is suspect.

Re: PL/1 on CPM

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Subject: Re: PL/1 on CPM
From: randy482@hotmail.com (Randy McLaughlin)
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by: Randy McLaughlin - Sat, 9 Jul 2022 22:14 UTC

On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 2:06:54 PM UTC-5, david...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 3 June 2022 at 08:26:29 UTC+2, Udo Munk wrote:
> [...]
> > But obviously DRI used it them self for various stuff, some of the CP/M 3 tools were
> > written in PL/1 and not PL/M.
> Did the source code for any CP/M hosted versions of the PL/1 or PL/M compilers ever make it out anywhere?
>
> The context is: now that I can use DR source in cpmish, I want to build the DR CP/M tools from scratch --- and they're mostly written in PL/M. It'd also be really nice to be able to include a proper compiler with the package.
>
> I'm aware of ogdenpm's reconstruction of the Intel PL/M-80 compiler, but I'm a bit wary of those as I don't believe these were ever formally released by Intel, so the licensing is suspect.
The short answer is no.

The original CP/M was built on 8080 ISIS, the last systems on a VAX.

So many were disassembled and well documented so they can be self-built with assemblers now.

It would be nice to find tools that run on x86 machines, should be doable.

The biggest problem is that real sources are piece-meal.

Randy

Re: PL/1 on CPM

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Subject: Re: PL/1 on CPM
From: philg@talk21.com (Phil G)
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by: Phil G - Sat, 9 Jul 2022 22:58 UTC

Udo wrote:
> some of the CP/M 3 tools were written in PL/1 and not PL/M.
I'm most surprised to hear this Udo, with no memory or port access PL/I seems a most unlikely choice for O/S tools.
Do you have any more details?
Cheers
Phil

Re: PL/1 on CPM

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Subject: Re: PL/1 on CPM
From: udo.munk@freenet.de (Udo Munk)
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by: Udo Munk - Sun, 10 Jul 2022 09:07 UTC

ph...@talk21.com schrieb am Sonntag, 10. Juli 2022 um 00:58:01 UTC+2:
> Udo wrote:
> > some of the CP/M 3 tools were written in PL/1 and not PL/M.
> I'm most surprised to hear this Udo, with no memory or port access PL/I seems a most unlikely choice for O/S tools.
> Do you have any more details?
> Cheers
> Phil

udos-mbp:cpm3src udo$ ls *.pli *.dcl
diomod.dcl initdir.pli plibios.dcl sopt.dcl

initdir doesn't need access to ports and there are declaration files for low level I/O.

Re: PL/1 on CPM

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Subject: Re: PL/1 on CPM
From: udo.munk@freenet.de (Udo Munk)
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by: Udo Munk - Sun, 10 Jul 2022 09:43 UTC

david...@gmail.com schrieb am Samstag, 9. Juli 2022 um 21:06:54 UTC+2:
> On Friday, 3 June 2022 at 08:26:29 UTC+2, Udo Munk wrote:
> [...]
> > But obviously DRI used it them self for various stuff, some of the CP/M 3 tools were
> > written in PL/1 and not PL/M.
> Did the source code for any CP/M hosted versions of the PL/1 or PL/M compilers ever make it out anywhere?

No. Also DRI had no CP/M based PL/M compiler, it runs on Intel ISIS. One can run it on CP/M with
help of an ISIS emulation, some documentation about how to do that here:
https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/doc_isis_intro.html

Then DRI used the VAX as software repository, not as compile machine. You can see that in their
build scripts, which fetch sources from the VAX to the ISIS system, compile stuff and transfer
results back to the VAX.

> The context is: now that I can use DR source in cpmish, I want to build the DR CP/M tools from scratch --- and they're mostly written in PL/M. It'd also be really nice to be able to include a proper compiler with the package.

The z80pack repository has disk images with compiler versions that are able to build everything from source:
https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/doc_cpm22_src.html
https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/doc_cpm3_src.html
https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/doc_mpm_src.html

> I'm aware of ogdenpm's reconstruction of the Intel PL/M-80 compiler, but I'm a bit wary of those as I don't believe these were ever formally released by Intel, so the licensing is suspect.

Intel is aware that the stuff is out there since decades and they will tolerate this. No way you ever will
get some formal licesing from them, I tried. So use it or don't.

Re: PL/1 on CPM

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Subject: Re: PL/1 on CPM
From: ogdenpm@gmail.com (Mark Ogden)
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by: Mark Ogden - Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:10 UTC

On Sunday, 10 July 2022 at 10:43:29 UTC+1, Udo Munk wrote:
> david...@gmail.com schrieb am Samstag, 9. Juli 2022 um 21:06:54 UTC+2:
> > On Friday, 3 June 2022 at 08:26:29 UTC+2, Udo Munk wrote:
> > [...]
> > > But obviously DRI used it them self for various stuff, some of the CP/M 3 tools were
> > > written in PL/1 and not PL/M.
> > Did the source code for any CP/M hosted versions of the PL/1 or PL/M compilers ever make it out anywhere?
> No. Also DRI had no CP/M based PL/M compiler, it runs on Intel ISIS. One can run it on CP/M with
> help of an ISIS emulation, some documentation about how to do that here:
> https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/doc_isis_intro.html
>
> Then DRI used the VAX as software repository, not as compile machine. You can see that in their
> build scripts, which fetch sources from the VAX to the ISIS system, compile stuff and transfer
> results back to the VAX.
> > The context is: now that I can use DR source in cpmish, I want to build the DR CP/M tools from scratch --- and they're mostly written in PL/M. It'd also be really nice to be able to include a proper compiler with the package.
> The z80pack repository has disk images with compiler versions that are able to build everything from source:
> https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/doc_cpm22_src.html
> https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/doc_cpm3_src.html
> https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/doc_mpm_src.html
> > I'm aware of ogdenpm's reconstruction of the Intel PL/M-80 compiler, but I'm a bit wary of those as I don't believe these were ever formally released by Intel, so the licensing is suspect.
> Intel is aware that the stuff is out there since decades and they will tolerate this. No way you ever will
> get some formal licesing from them, I tried. So use it or don't.

The binaries for the Intel PL/M compiler were released along with a MSDOS based emulation environment nearly 30 years ago.
My decompilation is for purely historic and academic purposes, the same applies to my port to C to allow cross compilation. I originally did the work as an intellectual exercise.
For most of the time I use the released binaries with an emulator, as on a modern system the performance is more than adequate.

Of interest, the PLI-80 compiler is actually written in PL/M as can be determined with a little disassembly.

Mark

Victory or defeat!

devel / comp.os.cpm / Re: PL/1 on CPM

Subject	Author
PL/1 on CPM	David Given
PL/1 on CPM	Randy McLaughlin
PL/1 on CPM	Phil G
PL/1 on CPM	Udo Munk
PL/1 on CPM	Udo Munk
PL/1 on CPM	Mark Ogden