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devel / comp.theory / Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

SubjectAuthor
* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
+- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
+* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|+- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|+- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
| `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|   `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|    `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     | +- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   | +- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |  +- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |   `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |    `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |     `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |      `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |       `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |        `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |         `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |   +- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |   `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |    `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |     +- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |     `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |      `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |       +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |       |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |       | +- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |       | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |       |  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |       |   +- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |       |   `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |       |    `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |       |     +- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |       |     `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |       |      `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |       |       +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |       |       |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |       |       | +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |       |       | |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |       |       | | `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |       |       | `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |       |       `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |       `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |        `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |         +- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |         `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |          `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |           |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |           | |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | | +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |           | | |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | | | +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |           | | | |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | | |  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | | +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | | |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | | | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | | |  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionolcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | | |   `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]olcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |   `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]immibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |    `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]olcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]immibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]olcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]immibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |+* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]olcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | ||+- The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]immibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | ||`- The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]Richard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]olcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]immibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]olcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |   +* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]immibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |   |+* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]olcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |   ||`- The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]Richard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |   |`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]olcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |   | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]immibis
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |   |  `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]olcott
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | |   `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]Richard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     | `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]Richard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | |     `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory question [-KEY-]Richard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   | `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | | |   `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | | `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | | `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |           | | `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   |          |           | `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          |           `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     |   |          `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
|     |   `* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionimmibis
|     `- The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionRichard Damon
`* The HP is merely a self-contradictory questionJim Burns

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Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

<una3v4$ak23$5@dont-email.me>

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From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 00:39:15 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In-Reply-To: <una3j0$am37$2@dont-email.me>
 by: immibis - Fri, 5 Jan 2024 23:39 UTC

On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>
>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>
>>
>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the halting
>> problem.
>
> embedded_H does terminate normally.

Then why did you say it didn't?

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 17:49:38 -0600
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 by: olcott - Fri, 5 Jan 2024 23:49 UTC

On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that question
>>> correctly.
>>
>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>
> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.

Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
answers <are> incorrect questions.

>
>>
>> When we see the example question: What time is it (yes or no)?
>> Then it is clear that incorrect questions do exist.
>>
>
> That's just a syntax error.

It is a type mismatch error.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 17:53:40 -0600
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 by: olcott - Fri, 5 Jan 2024 23:53 UTC

On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>
>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>
>>>
>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the halting
>>> problem.
>>
>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>
> Then why did you say it didn't?

I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
hundreds of times to make it more clear.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:01:19 +0100
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 by: immibis - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 00:01 UTC

On 1/6/24 00:49, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that question
>>>> correctly.
>>>
>>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>>
>> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.
>
> Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
> answers <are> incorrect questions.
>

They are simply questions without correct answers. But the halting
question isn't one of those. Jack can either correctly answer "no" or he
can't (the correct answer is that he can't). D(D) either halts or
doesn't halt.

>>
>>>
>>> When we see the example question: What time is it (yes or no)?
>>> Then it is clear that incorrect questions do exist.
>>>
>>
>> That's just a syntax error.
>
> It is a type mismatch error.
>
Whatever. It's a trivial, boring error.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:02:42 +0100
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 by: immibis - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 00:02 UTC

On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the halting
>>>> problem.
>>>
>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>
>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>
> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>

Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 18:12:41 -0600
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 by: olcott - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 00:12 UTC

On 1/5/2024 6:01 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 00:49, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that question
>>>>> correctly.
>>>>
>>>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>>>
>>> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.
>>
>> Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
>> answers <are> incorrect questions.
>>
>
> They are simply questions without correct answers.

Which makes them incorrect questions.

> But the halting
> question isn't one of those. Jack can either correctly answer "no" or he
> can't (the correct answer is that he can't). D(D) either halts or
> doesn't halt.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> When we see the example question: What time is it (yes or no)?
>>>> Then it is clear that incorrect questions do exist.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's just a syntax error.
>>
>> It is a type mismatch error.
>>
> Whatever. It's a trivial, boring error.

It proves that there really <is> such a thing as an incorrect question.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 18:14:54 -0600
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 by: olcott - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 00:14 UTC

On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the halting
>>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>
>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>
>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>
>
> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ

When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator and the
simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
than when there is no such pathological relationship.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:40:58 +0100
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 by: immibis - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 00:40 UTC

On 1/6/24 01:12, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 6:01 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 00:49, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that question
>>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>>>>
>>>> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.
>>>
>>> Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
>>> answers <are> incorrect questions.
>>>
>>
>> They are simply questions without correct answers.
>
> Which makes them incorrect questions.

An incorrect question is an unsolvable problem.
The halting problem is an incorrect question.
Therefore, the halting problem is an unsolvable problem.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
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Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
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 by: immibis - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:09 UTC

On 1/6/24 01:14, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the halting
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>>
>>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>>
>>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>>
>>
>> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ
>
> When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator and the
> simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
> than when there is no such pathological relationship.
>

Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the program.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 20:12:00 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <una9d0$24eh7$10@i2pn2.org>
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:12 UTC

On 1/5/24 6:49 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that question
>>>> correctly.
>>>
>>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>>
>> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.
>
> Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
> answers <are> incorrect questions.

And, does a SPECIFIC D(D) Halt when run has a correct answer, and thus
is a correct question.

You only get the "incorrect question" when you forget that D (and thus
the H it is built on) needs to be a specific implementation, becuase you
have broken the fact that H is a SPECIFIC decider.

>
>>
>>>
>>> When we see the example question: What time is it (yes or no)?
>>> Then it is clear that incorrect questions do exist.
>>>
>>
>> That's just a syntax error.
>
> It is a type mismatch error.
>

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 20:18:53 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <una9pt$24eh7$11@i2pn2.org>
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:18 UTC

On 1/5/24 7:14 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the halting
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>>
>>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>>
>>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>>
>>
>> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ
>
> When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator and the
> simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
> than when there is no such pathological relationship.
>

No, there is. All you are doing is proving that H doesn't do a "Correct
Simulation" becaus its designedr thought it was more important to give a
answer, even if wrong, then to do the work needed to get the right
answer, even if tha ttakes forever.

Since H aborts its simulaition, it just fails to meet the REQUIREMENTS
of a "Correct Simulation" that is needed to use simulation as a
substitute for direct program execution. Thus, like you, it is basing
its answer on its own lie.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 19:39:57 -0600
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 by: olcott - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:39 UTC

On 1/5/2024 6:40 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 01:12, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/5/2024 6:01 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 1/6/24 00:49, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>>>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>>>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that question
>>>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.
>>>>
>>>> Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
>>>> answers <are> incorrect questions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> They are simply questions without correct answers.
>>
>> Which makes them incorrect questions.
>
> An incorrect question is an unsolvable problem.
> The halting problem is an incorrect question.
> Therefore, the halting problem is an unsolvable problem.
>

It is only unsolvable because there is something wrong with it.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 19:41:08 -0600
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 by: olcott - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:41 UTC

On 1/5/2024 7:09 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 01:14, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the halting
>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>>>
>>>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>>>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>>>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>>>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ
>>
>> When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator and the
>> simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
>> than when there is no such pathological relationship.
>>
>
> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the program.

Not when the simulated specifically targets the simulator.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 20:50:35 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <unablb$24eh7$12@i2pn2.org>
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:50 UTC

On 1/5/24 8:39 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 6:40 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 01:12, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 6:01 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 00:49, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>>>>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>>>>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that question
>>>>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
>>>>> answers <are> incorrect questions.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They are simply questions without correct answers.
>>>
>>> Which makes them incorrect questions.
>>
>> An incorrect question is an unsolvable problem.
>> The halting problem is an incorrect question.
>> Therefore, the halting problem is an unsolvable problem.
>>
>
> It is only unsolvable because there is something wrong with it.
>

Nope, many unsolvable problems that don't have somethng "wrong" with them.

You are just too stupid to understand that.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 20:52:36 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <unabp4$24eh7$13@i2pn2.org>
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:52 UTC

On 1/5/24 8:41 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 7:09 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 01:14, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the
>>>>>>>> halting problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>>>>
>>>>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>>>>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>>>>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>>>>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ
>>>
>>> When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator and the
>>> simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
>>> than when there is no such pathological relationship.
>>>
>>
>> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the program.
>
> Not when the simulated specifically targets the simulator.
>

Where do you get that from?

You just are proving you don't understand the definiton of CORRECT.

You think wrong answer can be right if you don't like the results.

I.E, Your logic says Trump can claim he is right about the elections
being "Rigged".

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 02:59:48 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: immibis - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:59 UTC

On 1/6/24 02:39, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 6:40 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 01:12, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 6:01 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 00:49, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>>>>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>>>>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that question
>>>>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
>>>>> answers <are> incorrect questions.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They are simply questions without correct answers.
>>>
>>> Which makes them incorrect questions.
>>
>> An incorrect question is an unsolvable problem.
>> The halting problem is an incorrect question.
>> Therefore, the halting problem is an unsolvable problem.
>>
>
> It is only unsolvable because there is something wrong with it.
>
Like the fact it's unsolvable.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 03:00:36 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: immibis - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 02:00 UTC

On 1/6/24 02:41, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 7:09 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 01:14, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the
>>>>>>>> halting problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>>>>
>>>>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>>>>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>>>>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>>>>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ
>>>
>>> When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator and the
>>> simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
>>> than when there is no such pathological relationship.
>>>
>>
>> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the program.
>
> Not when the simulated specifically targets the simulator.
>
Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
program. A correct simulator cannot be targeted. These are irrefutable
facts.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 20:29:07 -0600
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 by: olcott - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 02:29 UTC

On 1/5/2024 7:59 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 02:39, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/5/2024 6:40 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 1/6/24 01:12, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2024 6:01 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:49, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>>>>>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>>>>>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that
>>>>>>>>> question correctly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
>>>>>> answers <are> incorrect questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They are simply questions without correct answers.
>>>>
>>>> Which makes them incorrect questions.
>>>
>>> An incorrect question is an unsolvable problem.
>>> The halting problem is an incorrect question.
>>> Therefore, the halting problem is an unsolvable problem.
>>>
>>
>> It is only unsolvable because there is something wrong with it.
>>
> Like the fact it's unsolvable.

In the same way that the question:
"What time it is (yes or no)?"
is unsolvable because it is incorrect.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 21:36:32 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 02:36 UTC

On 1/5/24 9:29 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 7:59 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 02:39, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 6:40 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 01:12, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 6:01 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:49, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:17 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/5/24 23:57, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> and Jack cannot answer that question correctly conclusively
>>>>>>>>>>> proves that the same word-for-word question has a different
>>>>>>>>>>> meaning when posed to Jack than when posed to anyone else.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it conclusively proves that Jack cannot answer that
>>>>>>>>>> question correctly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why can't Jack answer the question correctly?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because "yes" is incorrect and "no" is incorrect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right. And Yes/No questions that lack correct yes/no
>>>>>>> answers <are> incorrect questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are simply questions without correct answers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which makes them incorrect questions.
>>>>
>>>> An incorrect question is an unsolvable problem.
>>>> The halting problem is an incorrect question.
>>>> Therefore, the halting problem is an unsolvable problem.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is only unsolvable because there is something wrong with it.
>>>
>> Like the fact it's unsolvable.
>
> In the same way that the question:
> "What time it is (yes or no)?"
> is unsolvable because it is incorrect.
>

Nope.

Just prove you are not able to think clearly.

Nothing wrong with the Halting Question.

Only with your brain.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

<unaetu$flve$1@dont-email.me>

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From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 20:46:20 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: olcott - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 02:46 UTC

On 1/5/2024 8:00 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 02:41, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/5/2024 7:09 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 1/6/24 01:14, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the
>>>>>>>>> halting problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>>>>>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>>>>>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>>>>>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ
>>>>
>>>> When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator and the
>>>> simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
>>>> than when there is no such pathological relationship.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
>>> program.
>>
>> Not when the simulated specifically targets the simulator.
>>
> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
> program. A correct simulator cannot be targeted. These are irrefutable
> facts.

int D(ptr x)
{ int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
if (Halt_Status)
HERE: goto HERE;
return Halt_Status;
}

void main()
{ H(D,D);
}

None-the-less the question Does the directly executed D(D) halt?
<is> an incorrect question for H.

ZFC solves its Russell's Barber Paradox isomorphism by simply
rejecting the incorrect question: Does the barber shave himself?

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

<unagbm$frpb$1@dont-email.me>

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From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 04:10:46 +0100
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 by: immibis - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 03:10 UTC

On 1/6/24 03:29, olcott wrote:
> What time it is (yes or no)?

Yes.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 22:12:20 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <unagek$24eh8$6@i2pn2.org>
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 03:12 UTC

On 1/5/24 9:46 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 8:00 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 02:41, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 7:09 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 01:14, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the
>>>>>>>>>> halting problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>>>>>>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>>>>>>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>>>>>>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ
>>>>>
>>>>> When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator and
>>>>> the
>>>>> simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
>>>>> than when there is no such pathological relationship.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
>>>> program.
>>>
>>> Not when the simulated specifically targets the simulator.
>>>
>> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
>> program. A correct simulator cannot be targeted. These are irrefutable
>> facts.
>
> int D(ptr x)
> {
>   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>   if (Halt_Status)
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return Halt_Status;
> }
>
> void main()
> {
>   H(D,D);
> }
>
> None-the-less the question Does the directly executed D(D) halt?
> <is> an incorrect question for H.
>
> ZFC solves its Russell's Barber Paradox isomorphism by simply
> rejecting the incorrect question: Does the barber shave himself?
>

But there IS a correct answer, just not the one that H gives.

And, you prove your stupidity, but not understanding what ZFC did.

It didn't reject the Question of who does the Barber Shave, but the
concept that you could derine a set as the set of of sets that don't
contain itself, in the form of the Set of People the Barber shaves is
the set of people who do not shave themselves.

And, your example doesn't fit that, because your D isn't formed right,
because D is supposed to have a COPY of H, not call H, and thus we don't
have the actually impossible as independent machine cross calling.

In fact, you CAN'T actually make a D call whatever H is decide it, as
that makes D not a computation, as it isn't a function of just its inputs.

You just flunked Computer Science 101.

You have ADMITED that you are just lying that you are following the
requirement, so we shouldn't beleive anything you claim.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

<unagf4$frpb$2@dont-email.me>

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From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 04:12:36 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <unaetu$flve$1@dont-email.me>
 by: immibis - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 03:12 UTC

On 1/6/24 03:46, olcott wrote:
> On 1/5/2024 8:00 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/6/24 02:41, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2024 7:09 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/24 01:14, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the
>>>>>>>>>> halting problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>>>>>>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>>>>>>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>>>>>>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ
>>>>>
>>>>> When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator and
>>>>> the
>>>>> simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
>>>>> than when there is no such pathological relationship.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
>>>> program.
>>>
>>> Not when the simulated specifically targets the simulator.
>>>
>> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
>> program. A correct simulator cannot be targeted. These are irrefutable
>> facts.
>
> int D(ptr x)
> {
>   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>   if (Halt_Status)
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return Halt_Status;
> }
>
> void main()
> {
>   H(D,D);
> }
>
> None-the-less the question Does the directly executed D(D) halt?
> <is> an incorrect question for H.
>
> ZFC solves its Russell's Barber Paradox isomorphism by simply
> rejecting the incorrect question: Does the barber shave himself?
>

Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
program. A correct simulator cannot be targeted. These are irrefutable
facts.

There is no incorrect question in the Barber Paradox. There are only
incorrect assumptions.

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

<unah7d$fujm$1@dont-email.me>

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From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 21:25:31 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: olcott - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 03:25 UTC

On 1/5/2024 9:12 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 03:46, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/5/2024 8:00 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 1/6/24 02:41, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2024 7:09 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 1/6/24 01:14, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 6:02 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:53, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:39 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:32, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/5/2024 5:18 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/6/24 00:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> If embedded_H simulates its input then we can certainly
>>>>>>>>>>>> see that this simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D*
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If H doesn't terminate normally then it doesn't solve the
>>>>>>>>>>> halting problem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> embedded_H does terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then why did you say it didn't?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I never said that ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>>>>>>>> terminate normally. Read my 3 page paper to see all of the
>>>>>>>> very carefully composed details. This paper has been rewritten
>>>>>>>> hundreds of times to make it more clear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every correct simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ behaves the same as Ĥ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When there is a pathological relationship between the simulator
>>>>>> and the
>>>>>> simulated this directly causes the simulated to behave differently
>>>>>> than when there is no such pathological relationship.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
>>>>> program.
>>>>
>>>> Not when the simulated specifically targets the simulator.
>>>>
>>> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
>>> program. A correct simulator cannot be targeted. These are
>>> irrefutable facts.
>>
>> int D(ptr x)
>> {
>>    int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>    if (Halt_Status)
>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>    return Halt_Status;
>> }
>>
>> void main()
>> {
>>    H(D,D);
>> }
>>
>> None-the-less the question Does the directly executed D(D) halt?
>> <is> an incorrect question for H.
>>
>> ZFC solves its Russell's Barber Paradox isomorphism by simply
>> rejecting the incorrect question: Does the barber shave himself?
>>
>
> Every correct simulation of a program behaves identically to the
> program. A correct simulator cannot be targeted. These are irrefutable
> facts.
>
> There is no incorrect question in the Barber Paradox. There are only
> incorrect assumptions.
>

Every yes/no question not possibly having a correct yes/no answer
(for what-ever reason) is an incorrect question.

The barber paradox is an incorrect question because it assumes that sets
can be defined to be members of themselves.

The halting problem counter-example <is> an incorrect question
because an input that contradicts whatever value its decider
returns is assumed to be a valid input.

Tarski made the same mistake in his undefinability theorem.
He assumed that the Liar Paradox is a valid input.
https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_247_248.pdf

A non-truth bearer must be rejected as invalid input to
any True(L,x) predicate.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

<unaib3$g1s7$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=50793&group=comp.theory#50793

  copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 21:44:35 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: olcott - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 03:44 UTC

On 1/5/2024 9:10 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/6/24 03:29, olcott wrote:
>> What time it is (yes or no)?
>
> Yes.
>

The point is that incorrect questions do exist and are defined
as any question that cannot possibly have a correct answer.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

devel / comp.theory / Re: The HP is merely a self-contradictory question

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