On 9/11/23 21:00, KP2 KP2 wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 13, 1994 at 3:51:52 PM UTC-7, Greg Limes wrote:
>> In article <davidson-1...@162.49.74.63>,
>> Mark E. Davidson <davi...@pdsc.com> wrote:
>>> The local (Monterey, CA) paper had an obituary for Gary Kildall ...
>> The San Jose Mercury News ran his obit at the bottom right corner
>> of the front page and continued on the back page as follows; typos
>> are of course my fault. Reproduced without permission.
>> PC pioneer Kildall dies in Monterey
>> By Rory J. O'Connor
>> Mercury News Staff Writer
>> Kildall lost to Gates with IBM
>> Personal computer giant remembered for deal he didn't make
>> Personal computer pioneer Gary Kildall, who but for a single
>> failed business deal might have enjoyed the wealth and fame of
>> Bill Gates, died Monday night in a Monterey hospital at age
>> 52.
>> Kildall was admitted late Sunday to the Community Hospital of
>> the Monterey Peninsula. He died around 9 p.m. Monday, said Jean
>> Tierney, the hospital's administrative supervisor. She said
>> the hospital did not know the cause of death.
>> Kildall apparently was taken to the hospital after suffering a
>> concussion in a fall, said Thomas Rolander, a longtime friend
>> and former business associate of Kildall. While an autopsy
>> report is still incomplete, Rolander said evidence indicates
>> Kildall suffered a fatal heart attack. It is unclear if the
>> two conditions were related.
>> Kildall's career spans the history of the personal computer,
>> which he was instrumental in popularizing in the 1970s.
>> "Gary's technical contributions in the beginning days of
>> microcomputing were order-of-magnitude enhancements to the
>> capabilities with which we were working," said Jim Warren, a
>> Woodside consultant who played a key role in early
>> microcomputing. "The were enhancements both in technical power
>> and in equitable consumer-oriented pricing and support
>> practices."
>> In 1972, Kildall was an associate professor of computer science
>> at the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey and a
>> consultant for Intel Corp., which the year before had created
>> the world's first microprocessor chip. Kildall wrote a version
>> of the PL/I programming language that worked on the chip, the
>> Intel 4004. A year later, frustrated with the difficulty of
>> making the 4004 work with disk drives and other computer
>> components, he wrote the first personal computer operating
>> system.
>> A PC Breakthrough
>> The program, called Control Program for Micro-Computers and
>> shortened to CP/M, offered hobbyists a way to use their
>> microcomputers, as they were then called, in the same way as
>> larger minicomputers and mainframes. Before, the computers were
>> programmed in laborious ways, like flipping switches on the
>> front panel of the machines. With CP/M, they could type
>> instructions on a keyboard, store data on a floppy disk or tape
>> recorder and view results on a screen or printer.
>> Digital Research, the company started in 1976 by Kildasll and
>> his first wife, Dorth McEwen, sold CP/M for $75 each. Kildall,
>> who disliked business, said in a 1981 interview that he hoped
>> "just to support my computer habits" with the proceeds.
>> But the typical minicomputer operating system at the time sold
>> for at least $10,000, and Intel's own operating system for
>> microcomputers cost $800. CP/M soon became the standard
>> operating system for personal computers, which could be bought
>> for as little as a thousand dollars. By 1981, Kildall was one
>> of the best known figures in the $2 billion personal computer
>> business, and his $10 million company had sold 250,000 copies
>> of CP/M.
>> Negotiated with IBM
>> However, Kildall is probably best remembered for being on the
>> losing end of one of the biggest deals in computer history.
>> In 1980, IBM contacted Digital Research, hoping to persuatde it
>> to produce a new version of CP/M for the personal computer IBM
>> was secretly developing. Kildall didn't think much of IBM"s
>> chances but met with the company anyway.
>> "IBM wanted to take the market away from Apple, and they looked
>> at them and saw that the SoftCard (a CP/M add-in card for the
>> Apple II) was an important part of it," Kildall said in a 1991
>> interview.
>> Negotiations went badly, Rolander said. IBM wanted Digital
>> Research to sign a non-disclosure agreement but refused to sign
>> one in return. IBM wanted to pay a flat fee for CP/M, with no
>> royalties, and change the software's name.
>> Silicon Valley legend has it that Kildall, a passionate private
>> pilot, missed a crucial meeting because he decided to go flying
>> instead. While Kildall did fly that morning, Rolander said, he
>> attended the afternoon meeting.
>> IBM decided to hedge its bets. During a visit to tiny
>> Microsoft Corp., to obtain a version of its BASIC programming
>> language, IBM inquired if the company also could provide an
>> operating system.
>> Microsoft moves in
>> Even though he didn't have one, Microsoft founder Bill Gates
>> readily agreed to IBM's request. He bought a CP/M clone called
>> DOS from Seattle Computer Products, a company run by a friend
>> of Gates, for $250,000. That program became MS-DOS, proably
>> the most widely used software in the world, and helped turn
>> Gates into a billionaire.
>> Kildall had earlier sued Seattle Computer Products for
>> copyright infringement. When he confronted IBM with the fact,
>> IBM responded that it would agree to license CP/M as well -- if
>> Kildall agreed never to sue. He did, only to discover when the
>> IBM PC was introduced that the price of DOS was $40, while the
>> price of CP/M-86 was $200 more.
>> "It was only through inadequately sharp business hustling that
>> MS-DOS took the IBM cake when, by rights, CP/M should have done
>> so," Warren said.
>> But hard-nosed business was not Kildall's style.
>> "Basicly I am a gadget-oriented person," Kildall said in 1981.
>> "I like to work with gadgets, dials and knobs. I'm not a very
>> competitive person. I'm forced into it."
>> Kildasll remained active in the industry until his death. He
>> was Digital Research chairman until 1991, when Novell Inc.
>> bought the company. He started an early multimedia company in
>> Monterey in 1985, and later moved to Austin, Texas, to persue
>> the field. He recently returned to Monterey and spent the last
>> year and a half writing an unpublished book on the computer
>> industry called "Computer Connections."
>> Kildall was born in Seattle on May 19, 1942, and studied
>> computer science at the University of Washington, eventually
>> earning a Ph.D. He then took his post at the Naval
>> Postgraduate School.
>> Kildall met McEwen while in high school. The two married in
>> 1963 and were divorced 20 years later. Kildall married his
>> second wife, Karen, in 1986. They were recently divorced.
>> Kildall is survived by two children; Scott, of San Fransisco,
>> and Kristin, of Seattle; his mother, Emma; and a sister, Patti
>> Guberlet, both of Seattle.
>> Kildall, who was also race car enthusiast who collected and
>> rebuilt Grand Prix cars, will be cremated after a memorial
>> service later this week. Details are incomplete.
>> --
>> Greg Limes [not speaking for 3DO]
>> #include <disclaimer.h>
>> When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
>> PGP 0x1873DB65 // 12 8B 30 43 AA 88 8E F7 DD 50 97 D2 84 FD 5A 5C
> RIP

That post was from 1994!

Tell me again why it was a good idea for Google to start mucking
around with Usenet?

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, President/Curator
Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Aron Hoekstra wrote:

> Wow, talk about a necropost..

But Al's Geek Lab is about to do a 3 part YouTube video on "The Man That
Should Have Been Bill Gates".

On 9/13/23 05:31, Captain Nemo wrote:
>> Wow, talk about a necropost..
>
> But Al's Geek Lab is about to do a 3 part YouTube video on "The Man That
> Should Have Been Bill Gates".

Hm. Almost forgivable, then. ;)

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, President/Curator
Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA

On 13/09/2023 7:31 pm, Captain Nemo wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Aron Hoekstra wrote:
>
>> Wow, talk about a necropost..
>
> But Al's Geek Lab is about to do a 3 part YouTube video on "The Man That
> Should Have Been Bill Gates".

Clearly Kildall didn't have what it takes to be that.

On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 7:55:49 PM UTC-5, dxf wrote:
> Clearly Kildall didn't have what it takes to be that.

Correct, Gary was a good software engineer and a good human being.

On 9/13/23 20:55, dxf wrote:
>>> Wow, talk about a necropost..
>>
>> But Al's Geek Lab is about to do a 3 part YouTube video on "The Man That
>> Should Have Been Bill Gates".
>
> Clearly Kildall didn't have what it takes to be that.

Yup, he was neither sufficiently sleazy nor sufficiently willing to
take short cuts.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, President/Curator
Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:47:53 -0700 (PDT), Douglas Miller wrote:

> On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 7:55:49 PM UTC-5, dxf wrote:
>> Clearly Kildall didn't have what it takes to be that.
>
> Correct, Gary was a good software engineer and a good human being.

Correct. But a bad businessman.

Next July, in 10 months, it will be 30 years since the death of Gary Kildall. Any upcoming books, press coverage, or other initiatives to remember him and his work?

As far as I know no biography of him is available. Any takers?

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 4:30:39 AM UTC-5, Captain Nemo wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:47:53 -0700 (PDT), Douglas Miller wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 7:55:49 PM UTC-5, dxf wrote:
> >> Clearly Kildall didn't have what it takes to be that.
> >
> > Correct, Gary was a good software engineer and a good human being.
> Correct. But a bad businessman.

Only in the sense that he didn't want to charge exorbitant prices for lousy product. He wasn't in it to be the richest man in the world. I wanted to provide a good product, and needed to charge for it in order to continue providing a good product. Sounds like the best kind of businessman to me.

On 9/13/2023 9:47 PM, Douglas Miller wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 7:55:49 PM UTC-5, dxf wrote:
>> Clearly Kildall didn't have what it takes to be that.
>
> Correct, Gary was a good software engineer and a good human being.

And his mother didn't work for IBM.

bill

On 14/09/2023 9:55 pm, Douglas Miller wrote:
> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 4:30:39 AM UTC-5, Captain Nemo wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:47:53 -0700 (PDT), Douglas Miller wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 7:55:49 PM UTC-5, dxf wrote:
>>>> Clearly Kildall didn't have what it takes to be that.
>>>
>>> Correct, Gary was a good software engineer and a good human being.
>> Correct. But a bad businessman.
>
> Only in the sense that he didn't want to charge exorbitant prices for lousy product. He wasn't in it to be the richest man in the world. I wanted to provide a good product, and needed to charge for it in order to continue providing a good product. Sounds like the best kind of businessman to me.

To give Gates his due he was very good at forecasting trends and prepared
to take risks. Seeing the IBM PC on the horizon, he dropped CP/M without
any qualms. PC DOS 1.x - dated as it was - got his foot in the door.
Within 2 years he produced MS-DOS 2.x and never looked back. Even IBM
found itself in the back seat - just another supplier. It's Gates' name
that was in lights and to whom the world was looking.

On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 1:38:10 AM UTC-5, dxf wrote:
> To give Gates his due he was very good at forecasting trends and prepared
> to take risks. Seeing the IBM PC on the horizon, he dropped CP/M without
> any qualms. PC DOS 1.x - dated as it was - got his foot in the door.
> Within 2 years he produced MS-DOS 2.x and never looked back. Even IBM
> found itself in the back seat - just another supplier. It's Gates' name
> that was in lights and to whom the world was looking.

That's a rather grandiose rewrite of history, considering what actually happened. Gates didn't "drop" CP/M (especially considering that DOS started as a rip-off of CP/M), but circumstances (and IBM) dictated what happened. And to somehow say that DOS was great is really a failure to see it for what it was. The microcomputer market was blinded by the IBM name, and Gates was shrewd to tie himself to that post. True that he was able to escape the orbit around IBM, but it was IBM that launched him into that orbit in the first place.

On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 4:01:17 AM UTC-7, Douglas Miller wrote:
> On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 1:38:10 AM UTC-5, dxf wrote:
> > To give Gates his due he was very good at forecasting trends and prepared
> > to take risks. Seeing the IBM PC on the horizon, he dropped CP/M without
> > any qualms. PC DOS 1.x - dated as it was - got his foot in the door.
> > Within 2 years he produced MS-DOS 2.x and never looked back. Even IBM
> > found itself in the back seat - just another supplier. It's Gates' name
> > that was in lights and to whom the world was looking.
> That's a rather grandiose rewrite of history, considering what actually happened. Gates didn't "drop" CP/M (especially considering that DOS started as a rip-off of CP/M), but circumstances (and IBM) dictated what happened. And to somehow say that DOS was great is really a failure to see it for what it was. The microcomputer market was blinded by the IBM name, and Gates was shrewd to tie himself to that post. True that he was able to escape the orbit around IBM, but it was IBM that launched him into that orbit in the first place.
I heard that Bill had reversed engineered CP/M and made DOS out of it. Only if Digital Research was Microsoft.

On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 11:48:00 AM UTC-5, KP2 KP2 wrote:
> I heard that Bill had reversed engineered CP/M and made DOS out of it. Only if Digital Research was Microsoft.

I think Seattle Computer Products actually did the "dirty work" and MS just purchased their "rip-off" and ran with it. But, either way, I recall looking at the internals of the first version of PC-DOS and realizing that it was, architecturally, essentially CP/M. But just looking at what DRI did for the PC vs. the state of MS-DOS makes one wish that. Think about how long it took MS to actually get any OS that was truly multi-tasking, let alone stable.

Douglas Miller <durgadas311@gmail.com> writes:

> I think Seattle Computer Products actually did the "dirty work" and MS
> just purchased their "rip-off" and ran with it.

"Quick and Dirty Operating System"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS

--
Fake signature.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023, KP2 KP2 wrote:

> On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 4:01:17 AM UTC-7, Douglas Miller wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 1:38:10 AM UTC-5, dxf wrote:
>>> To give Gates his due he was very good at forecasting trends and prepared
>>> to take risks. Seeing the IBM PC on the horizon, he dropped CP/M without
>>> any qualms. PC DOS 1.x - dated as it was - got his foot in the door.
>>> Within 2 years he produced MS-DOS 2.x and never looked back. Even IBM
>>> found itself in the back seat - just another supplier. It's Gates' name
>>> that was in lights and to whom the world was looking.
>> That's a rather grandiose rewrite of history, considering what actually
>> happened. Gates didn't "drop" CP/M (especially considering that DOS
>> started as a rip-off of CP/M), but circumstances (and IBM) dictated
>> what happened. And to somehow say that DOS was great is really a
>> failure to see it for what it was. The microcomputer market was blinded
>> by the IBM name, and Gates was shrewd to tie himself to that post. True
>> that he was able to escape the orbit around IBM, but it was IBM that
>> launched him into that orbit in the first place.
> I heard that Bill had reversed engineered CP/M and made DOS out of it.
> Only if Digital Research was Microsoft.
>

Gates just bought what Tim Paterson produced, and if I understand
correctly, he just copied the APIs from the manuals.

-uso.

On 9/16/23 13:06, Douglas Miller wrote:
>> I heard that Bill had reversed engineered CP/M and made DOS out of it. Only if Digital Research was Microsoft.
>
> I think Seattle Computer Products actually did the "dirty work" and MS just purchased their "rip-off" and ran with it. But, either way, I recall looking at the internals of the first version of PC-DOS and realizing that it was, architecturally, essentially CP/M. But just looking at what DRI did for the PC vs. the state of MS-DOS makes one wish that. Think about how long it took MS to actually get any OS that was truly multi-tasking, let alone stable.

"Stable". Yeah, maybe they'll get there someday.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, President/Curator
Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 11:42:42 AM UTC-5, comp.os.cpm wrote:
> Why are we still arguing who did what and when? its all very well documented :)
“History is Written by Victors.” but some of us remember things differently.