Welcome to Rocksolid Light

mail files register newsreader groups login

Message-ID:

19 May, 2024: Line wrapping has been changed to be more consistent with Usenet standards.
If you find that it is broken please let me know here rocksolid.nodes.help

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

Subject	Author
Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior YES/NO	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior YES/NO	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --a	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --a	immibis
H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when reports on the actual behavior that it sees	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --a	olcott
When H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ reports on the behavior it actually sees then it is correct	olcott
Re: When H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ reports on the behavior it actually sees then it is correct	Mikko
Re: When H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ reports on the behavior it actually sees then it is correct	Richard Damon
Re: When H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ reports on the behavior it actually sees then it is correct	olcott
Re: When H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ reports on the behavior it actually sees then it is correct	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --l	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --a	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Mikko
H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when reports on the actual behavior that it sees	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --w	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --O	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --O	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --w	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --w	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --O	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --O	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --O	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Mikko
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Mikko
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Mikko
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Mikko
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Mikko
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Mikko
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Mikko
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --n	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --a	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	Richard Damon
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	immibis
Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior	olcott

Pages:1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8910 11 12 13

Re: H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when reports on the actual behavior that it sees

<usprbt$b9av$7@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55373&group=comp.theory#55373

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when re
ports_on_the_actual_behavior_that_it_sees
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:11:57 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <usprbt$b9av$7@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usijm6$1bt2h$1@i2pn2.org>
<usikk8$2gnhr$8@dont-email.me> <usiljd$2hc10$3@dont-email.me>
<usineq$2hnpb$3@dont-email.me> <usiq9n$2ijsm$1@dont-email.me>
<usir82$2inqh$2@dont-email.me> <usit21$2j3c8$1@dont-email.me>
<usiufa$2j99n$1@dont-email.me> <usiukh$2jaj3$1@dont-email.me>
<usiuup$2jdc7$2@dont-email.me> <usj254$2jutc$2@dont-email.me>
<usj2e3$2jut2$1@dont-email.me> <usj2je$2jutc$3@dont-email.me>
<usj2rs$2jut2$2@dont-email.me> <usj32s$2k5id$1@dont-email.me>
<usjd20$2plge$1@dont-email.me> <usjef5$1cf5q$6@i2pn2.org>
<usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me> <usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org>
<usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org>
<uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskssi$33a1p$4@dont-email.me>
<usmpde$3j2lk$1@dont-email.me> <usn7kr$3m7k2$2@dont-email.me>
<usp8md$7iej$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 15:11:57 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="370015"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1++VmD7I6We11siec29LGAb"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:wiibLKAuf/cdMDqc91slFpgMqZ0=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <usp8md$7iej$1@dont-email.me>

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 15:11 UTC

On 3/12/2024 4:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-03-11 15:23:07 +0000, olcott said:
>
>> On 3/11/2024 6:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-03-10 18:07:14 +0000, immibis said:
>>>
>>>> On 10/03/24 17:52, olcott wrote:
>>>>> Unlike anything else that anyone else has ever done both H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>> and Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly determine that they must abort their own
>>>>> simulation to prevent their own infinite execution.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong, they incorrectly determine this because they determine this
>>>> even though it is not true.
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter much whther the determination of the need to abort
>>> is correct or not. Either way, the after that determination and
>>> aborting,
>>> the answer H gives is (for at least one input) wrong.
>>>
>>
>> H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when reports on the actual behavior that it sees.
>> It is incorrect to expect it to report on behavior that it cannot see.
>
> Correctness is not defined in terms of what someting "sees". H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
> is correct if it reports what the specifiation requires to be reported,
> otherwise it is not. Whether it is possible to report what is required
> is not relevant.
>

*This alternative specification is decidable*
Will you halt if you never abort your simulation?

When every simulating halt decider reports on the actual
behavior that it actually sees, then the pathological input
does not thwart it.

When they do not use this spec then deciders are required
to report on behavior other than the behavior that they see.
int sum(int x, int y){ return x + y; }

This is the same as requiring sum(3,4) to report on
the sum of 5 + 6.

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<uspshf$c1qv$1@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55374&group=comp.theory#55374

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:31:58 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <uspshf$c1qv$1@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org>
<uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me>
<usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me> <usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me>
<usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me> <usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me>
<usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me> <usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org>
<usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me> <usp9e8$7nfb$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 15:31:59 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="395103"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/IfFz+JOJ+oVG8qT8gaGas"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:8h4w+JrciqZf6wmXDvpJ2qgNhxg=
In-Reply-To: <usp9e8$7nfb$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 15:31 UTC

On 3/12/2024 5:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-03-12 03:37:53 +0000, olcott said:
>
>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>> \
>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>
>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>>
>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can ask
>>> this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their
>>> behavirs.
>>
>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>
>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>
> No, it does not. The notation is defined by Linz to denote
> a finite sequence of configurations.
>

If it is required to report on a single finite sequence of
configurations then that only proves that there exists some
halt decider that decides some input incorrectly.

If it is reporting on every finite sequence of configurations
then that proves that there does not exist a halt decider that
decides every input correctly.

*Formalized*
∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders
∃ TMD ∈ Turing_Machine_Descriptions |
Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)

There is some input TMD to every H such that
Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when reports on the actual behavior that it sees

<uspsur$c1qv$2@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55375&group=comp.theory#55375

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when re
ports_on_the_actual_behavior_that_it_sees
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:39:06 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <uspsur$c1qv$2@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usj2je$2jutc$3@dont-email.me>
<usj2rs$2jut2$2@dont-email.me> <usj32s$2k5id$1@dont-email.me>
<usjd20$2plge$1@dont-email.me> <usjef5$1cf5q$6@i2pn2.org>
<usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me> <usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org>
<usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org>
<uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usmnka$3imd4$1@dont-email.me>
<usn67f$3ltl1$1@dont-email.me> <usn6m4$3m1o4$1@dont-email.me>
<usn84q$3m7k2$3@dont-email.me> <usp9mv$7pn3$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 15:39:07 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="395103"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19B8eejB0v/APpyLFReNWTL"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:8IsZLEPX7wZTFD9o5W1OhbLNwGc=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <usp9mv$7pn3$1@dont-email.me>

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 15:39 UTC

On 3/12/2024 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-03-11 15:31:37 +0000, olcott said:
>
>> On 3/11/2024 10:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-03-11 14:58:55 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 3/11/2024 5:49 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-03-11 05:05:19 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Does your input halt on its input?
>>>>>> is an incorrect question for each Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>
>>>>> It is incorrect in sthe sense that it is not the question
>>>>> asked in the halting problem. Otherwise it can be a reasonable
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *MIT Professor Michael Sipser agreed this verbatim paragraph is
>>>> correct*
>>>> (He has neither reviewed nor agreed to anything else in this paper)
>>>> (a) If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>>>> until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never stop
>>>> running unless aborted then
>>>> (b) H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>>> specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>
>>>> When simulating termination analyzer H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ computes
>>>> the mapping from its input to its own final state on
>>>> the basis of the behavior that it actually sees then
>>>> halting is always computable.
>>>>
>>>> Expecting it to compute the mapping from its input on
>>>> the basis of behavior that it does not see is incorrect.
>>>
>>> None of that says anything about correctness of questions.
>>>
>>
>> int sum(int x, int y){ return x + y; }
>> It is the same as requiring sum(3,4) to report on the sum of 5 + 6.
>
> Just read the specification of sum carefully and code accordingly.
> What you think it should specify is irrelevant.
>

The specification of the halting problem requires H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to
report on Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ that (because of pathological self-reference)
has different behavior than the behavior that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ actually sees.

Will you halt if you never abort your simulation?

Allows every H to report on the behavior that it actually sees
and thus eliminate the undecidability of this newly framed halting
problem.

When the original halting problem is proven to be unsatisfiable
only because it is allowed to ask incorrect questions then this
issue is resolved in the same way that ZFC resolved Russell's
paradox: Incorrect questions are not allowed.

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

ZFC solution to incorrect questions: reject them

<usptnb$caqa$1@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55377&group=comp.theory#55377

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: ZFC solution to incorrect questions: reject them
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:52:10 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 516
Message-ID: <usptnb$caqa$1@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usj254$2jutc$2@dont-email.me>
<usj2e3$2jut2$1@dont-email.me> <usj2je$2jutc$3@dont-email.me>
<usj2rs$2jut2$2@dont-email.me> <usj32s$2k5id$1@dont-email.me>
<usjd20$2plge$1@dont-email.me> <usjef5$1cf5q$6@i2pn2.org>
<usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me> <usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org>
<usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org>
<uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usmncj$3il8v$1@dont-email.me>
<usn5vc$3ltjo$1@dont-email.me> <usn70g$3m5q6$1@dont-email.me>
<usn9uk$3m7k2$9@dont-email.me> <uspa8l$7tb3$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 15:52:11 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="404298"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+iT7l82z5DgdKBNqxa9yZ9"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:dv8KQQk8bOPjtdWIKgZeVwr15QM=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <uspa8l$7tb3$1@dont-email.me>

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 15:52 UTC

On 3/12/2024 5:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-03-11 16:02:28 +0000, olcott said:
>
>> On 3/11/2024 10:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-03-11 14:54:34 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 3/11/2024 5:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-03-11 04:38:40 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 11:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 8:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 7:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 6:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 2:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 11:23 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 10:17 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 10:50 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 7:28 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:16 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 11:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:14 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 10:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 8:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:40 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:37, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:29, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:24 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 6:24 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:22, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:57 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 00:26, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:10 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 23:22, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 3:50 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 22:34, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What criteria would you use so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ knows what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong answer to provide?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the exact same objective criteria
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating halt deciders must make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure that they themselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not get stuck in infinite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution. This means that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must abort every simulation that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly otherwise halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This requires Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation and does not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation when Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ aborts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does simulate itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive simulation H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not simulate itself in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the exact same objective criteria
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Only because Ĥ.H is embedded within
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ and H is not*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can possibly get stuck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive simulation and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly get stuck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You dishonestly ignored that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the exact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same OBJECTIVE criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is true no matter what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criteria that is used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as long as H is a simulating halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Objective criteria cannot vary based on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the subject is. They are objective.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The answer to different people is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same answer if the criteria are objective.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ.H can get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in recursive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation because Ĥ copies its input
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus never runs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly get stuck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive because H does not copy its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input thus runs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. Dead wrong. Stupidly wrong. So
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong that a dead monkey could do better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Write the Olcott machine (not x86utm)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code for Ĥ and I would show you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not a verified fact, that's just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something you want to be true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∞ means infinite loop. Infinite loop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't halt. You see how stupid it is, to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say that an infinite loop halts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transitions to Ĥ.H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) which begins at its own simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ to repeat the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BECAUSE IT IS PRECISELY IDENTICAL TO STEPS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B AND C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (c) which begins at Ĥ's own simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ to repeat the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Yes and the key step of copying its input
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is left out so*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ runs out of params and Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ never runs out of params*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that isn't how any of this works. Do you even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know what words mean?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) and (c) are not the same as (1) and (2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) which begins at simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transitions to Ĥ.H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) which begins at its own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to repeat the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This means that Turing machine H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see one more execution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trace of Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ than its simulated Turing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, your just being stuupid, perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) just moves around to its simulation of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) H^.q0 (H^)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H^ then makes a copy of its inp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) H^.H (H^) (H^) == (1) H (H^) (H^)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The algorithm of H begins a simulation of its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input, watching the behaior of H^ (H^)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) = (2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which begins at the simulation of H^.q0 (H^)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (d = sim a) = (sim a)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ths Simulated H^.q0 (H^) makes a copy of its input
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (e = sim b) = (sim b)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Simulated H^.H (H^) (H^) has is H begin the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation of its input ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and so on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both machine see EXACTLY the same level of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> details.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the top level H is farther along at any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given time then its simulated machine, and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is H's problem, it has to act before it sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how its simulation will respond to its copy of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its actions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, if it stops, it needs to make its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision "blind" and not with an idea of how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the machine it is simulating will perform.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it doesn't stop, the level of recursion just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeps growing and no answer ever comes out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The earliest point that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can possibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see to abort
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation is immediately before Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would begin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation. Right before its cycle repeats
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the first time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it DOES abort there, then so will H^.H when it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gets to that point in its simulation, which will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be AFTER The point that H has stopped simulating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, so H doesn't know what H^ will do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, if H DOES abort there, we presume from your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous answer it will think the input will not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt and answer qn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ applied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ aborts right after Ĥ.Hq0 before it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And if it does, as I said below, so will H^.H when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is run.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And thus, H^.H will give the same answer as H,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so H^ will act contrary to what H says,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so H will give the wrong answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike anything else that anyone else has ever done
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly determine that they must
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abort their own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation to prevent their own infinite execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOPE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If no source can be cited then the Olcott thesis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "that no one did this before" remains unrefuted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since, BY THE DEFINITIONS of what H MUST do to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct, and what H^ WILL do by its design, as shown in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Linz Proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If no source can be cited that shows a simulating halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly determine that it must abort its simulation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Halting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Problem's pathological input to prevent its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-termination, then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> innovation remains attributable to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course it can abort its simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It just needs some way to get the right answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *I have always been using this long before I read about it*
>>>>>>>>>>>> blind variation and selective retention (BVSR)...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Two common phenomena characterize BVSR thinking: superfluity
>>>>>>>>>>>> and backtracking. Superfluity means that the creator
>>>>>>>>>>>> generates a variety of ideas, one or more of which turn out
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be useless.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But if you have mo idea how things actually works, this seems
>>>>>>>>>>> to just generate random noise.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Backtracking signifies that the creator must often return to
>>>>>>>>>>>> an earlier approach after blindly going off in the wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>> direction.
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-of-genius/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *I am aware of no one else that had the idea to apply a
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulating* *termination analyzer to the halting problem
>>>>>>>>>>>> counter-example input*
>>>>>>>>>>>> Professor Hehner had a seed of this idea before I did.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, I remember talk of that when I was in college, and they
>>>>>>>>>>> showed why it can't work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From a programmer's point of view, if we apply an
>>>>>>>>>>>> interpreter to a
>>>>>>>>>>>> program text that includes a call to that same interpreter
>>>>>>>>>>>> with that
>>>>>>>>>>>> same text as argument, then we have an infinite loop. A
>>>>>>>>>>>> halting program
>>>>>>>>>>>> has some of the same character as an interpreter: it applies
>>>>>>>>>>>> to texts
>>>>>>>>>>>> through abstract interpretation. Unsurprisingly, if we apply
>>>>>>>>>>>> a halting
>>>>>>>>>>>> program to a program text that includes a call to that same
>>>>>>>>>>>> halting
>>>>>>>>>>>> program with that same text as argument, then we have an
>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite loop. https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hehner/PHP.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You THINK so, but if the interpreter is a CONDITIONAL
>>>>>>>>>>> interpreter, that doesn't hold.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to miss that fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Turing Machine and Olcott machine implementations seem to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be dead*
>>>>>>>>>>>> *This the (possibly augmented) RASP machine equivalent of x86*
>>>>>>>>>>>> Every machine must be able to get its own machine address.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And the reason it is a dead end is they make it too hard for
>>>>>>>>>>> you to cheat.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You need to hide that your H is trying to get in some extra
>>>>>>>>>>> information to hide that the embedded version of H doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> give the same answer, which just shows that your H^ is built
>>>>>>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My C code proves these two have different behavior:
>>>>>>>>>> (a) H1(D,D) + H1_machine_address
>>>>>>>>>> (b) H(D,D) + H_machine_address
>>>>>>>>>> H1(D,D) does correctly determine the halt status of D(D) because
>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) does NOT correctly determine the halt status of D(D).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I say:
>>>>>>>>>> H1(D,D) is isomorphic to H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) is isomorphic to Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> immibis disagrees.
>>>>>>>>>> Correct reasoning will show who is correct.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, and since H1 is a different computation than H, it getting
>>>>>>>>> the right answer doesn't keep H from being broken.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We can then make a D1 to break H1.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that immibis already said that and I did not notice
>>>>>>>> the significance of it at the time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then we are back to undecidability being incorrectly construed
>>>>>>>> as an actual limit to computation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Strange definition of not an actual limit if not being able to do
>>>>>>> something isn't a limit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Professor's Hehner and Stoddart have only construed this as
>>>>>>>> applying to the Halting Problem's pathological input.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We three perfectly agree on this as it pertains to the
>>>>>>>> Halting Problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That two full PhD professors of computer science and I all
>>>>>>>> agree on this shows that I am not a crackpot/crank on this.
>>>>>>>> I think that all of the other options may now be exhausted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am very happy that I quit tolerating the [change the subject]
>>>>>>>> form of rebuttal that wasted 15 years with Ben Bacarisse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *The focus now must be on finding the best words that prove*
>>>>>>>> *this original position of mine (thus the concurring positions*
>>>>>>>> *of professors Hehner and Stoddart) is correct*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Go knock yourself out on that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alan Turing's Halting Problem is incorrectly formed (PART-TWO)
>>>>>>>> sci.logic
>>>>>>>> On 6/20/2004 11:31 AM, Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> > PREMISES:
>>>>>>>> > (1) The Halting Problem was specified in such a way that a
>>>>>>>> solution
>>>>>>>> > was defined to be impossible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The PROBLEM is the question if a machine can compute the Halting
>>>>>>> Function.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The answer to that, has turned out to be NO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the problem was first being posed, it was hoped the answer
>>>>>>> woudl be yes, so it couldn't have bee made specifically to make
>>>>>>> it impossible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Halting QUESTION, has an answer for every input that it the
>>>>>>> description of an actual algorithm applied to an actual data input.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note, Not a "Template" that gets appled to the decider, that IS
>>>>>>> an invalid question, and impossible to build a description of a
>>>>>>> Turing Machine to ask that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thus, when you admitted that your input wasn't actually a
>>>>>>> description of a program, but just a template, you were admitting
>>>>>>> that you were lying about working on the Halting Problem, as your
>>>>>>> input isn't of the right type.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, asking about a template IS an invalid question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > (2) The set of questions that are defined to not have any
>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> > correct answer(s) forms a proper subset of all possible
>>>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>>>> > …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, when you are asking the actual Halting Question, about a
>>>>>>> specific machine and input, like a SPECIFIC H^, built to foil a
>>>>>>> SPECIIFIC H, then that input has a specific and definate behavior
>>>>>>> and there is a specific and definate answer (That depends on the
>>>>>>> H that you chose to build it on, but not the decider you are
>>>>>>> asking the question to).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > CONCLUSION:
>>>>>>>> > Therefore the Halting Problem is an ill-formed question.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope, as explained above. You are just showing that you never
>>>>>>> understood the actual question or what any of the theory actually
>>>>>>> means, and have just wasted the last decades of your life on a
>>>>>>> stupid misconception of your own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> USENET Message-ID:
>>>>>>>> <kZiBc.103407$Gx4.18142@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Direct Link to original message*
>>>>>>>> http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3CkZiBc.103407%24Gx4.18142%40bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net%3E+
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not
>>>>>> halt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That YES and NO are the wrong answer for each implementation of
>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ specified by the second ⊢* state transition proves
>>>>>> that the
>>>>>> questions asked of these machine/inputs pairs are incorrect
>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> An incorrect answer does not mean that the question is incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When every element of the infinite set of every possible
>>>> implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ gets the wrong answer then
>>>> there is something wrong with the question.
>>>
>>> According to the definition by Linz there is only one Ĥ for each H.
>>> Anyway, a wrong answer, even if given in large quentities, does
>>> not make the question worng.
>>
>> None-the-less the infinite set of every implementation of
>> H/Ĥ.H cannot possibly get an answer that is consistent with
>> the behavior of of Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩.
>
> The infinite set is not expected to answer. And the set is
> infinite only if you include defective imiplementations.
>
> Anyway, no memeber of the set of implementations can get
> an answer that is consistent with the corresponding counter
> example.
>

Click here to read the complete article

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<uspuao$caqa$3@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55379&group=comp.theory#55379

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 11:02:32 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <uspuao$caqa$3@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org>
<uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me>
<usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me> <usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me>
<usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me> <usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me>
<usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me> <usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org>
<usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me> <usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:02:32 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="404298"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/y22Cnjj1mi2GR7jp3PjW7"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:V+Mn1BC8i6jwHXxnHWhhvqd1Yvw=
In-Reply-To: <usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org>
Content-Language: en-US

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:02 UTC

On 3/11/2024 10:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/11/24 8:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>> \
>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>
>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>>
>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can ask
>>> this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their
>>> behavirs.
>>
>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>
>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>
> Nope, read him again, not just skim and assume.
>

*Here is the proof that I am correct*
∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders
∃ TMD ∈ Turing_Machine_Descriptions |
Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<uspurt$ci2k$1@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55381&group=comp.theory#55381

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:11:41 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <uspurt$ci2k$1@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me>
<usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org> <usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me>
<usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me> <usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me>
<usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me> <usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me>
<usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me> <usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:11:41 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="cbaaa343687852c36ef2e80d20aa4861";
logging-data="411732"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19KsP8DMQUSeQbuKVjAEFyn"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:cEClWT8mLyAWLDi4oTsLz4JegYQ=
In-Reply-To: <usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US

by: immibis - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:11 UTC

On 12/03/24 03:52, olcott wrote:
> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2024 9:13 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> *This is my unique contribution to the field of the Halting Problem*
>>>>>>> *This is my unique contribution to the field of the Halting Problem*
>>>>>>> *This is my unique contribution to the field of the Halting Problem*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When we ask H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩:
>>>>>>> Does your input halt on its input?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We do not ask it that. We ask it whether Ĥ halts on input ⟨Ĥ⟩.
>>>>>> This is an objective specification, not subjective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When we ask Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ whether Ĥ halts on input ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>> both YES and NO are the wrong answer for Ĥ.H.
>>>>
>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer, the
>>>> whole rebuttal is tossed out as invalid and incorrect.
>>>
>>> Troll detected.
>>>
>>
>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>
> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.

Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer, the whole
rebuttal is tossed out as invalid and incorrect.

That people keep trying to get away with the strawman deception on this
is very telling.

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --Olcott willful ignorance--

<uspuun$ci2k$2@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55383&group=comp.theory#55383

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--Olcott_willful_ignorance--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:13:11 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <uspuun$ci2k$2@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjef5$1cf5q$6@i2pn2.org>
<usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me> <usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org>
<usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org>
<uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <usne42$1hqqe$4@i2pn2.org>
<uso2f2$3sd10$1@dont-email.me> <uso6d9$1ipmg$2@i2pn2.org>
<usobon$3u623$1@dont-email.me> <usofcr$1j3v1$3@i2pn2.org>
<usoht6$2vll$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:13:12 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="cbaaa343687852c36ef2e80d20aa4861";
logging-data="411732"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX182POZC6BybH07hEKAURyul"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:w7w5PtDt8e/fRLSIgt9C+jPaWUI=
In-Reply-To: <usoht6$2vll$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US

by: immibis - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:13 UTC

On 12/03/24 04:24, olcott wrote:
> On 3/11/2024 9:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> There is no correct answer for this (program/input pair): (H/⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩)

Yes there is. If you show me the Turing machine description of Ĥ I will
tell you whether it halts on its own input or not. As long as it doesn't
check the Collatz conjecture.

Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer, the whole
rebuttal is tossed out as invalid and incorrect.

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<uspv1h$ci2k$4@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55385&group=comp.theory#55385

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.furie.org.uk!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:14:41 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <uspv1h$ci2k$4@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me>
<usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me> <usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me>
<usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me> <usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me>
<usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me> <usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me>
<usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org> <usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:14:41 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="cbaaa343687852c36ef2e80d20aa4861";
logging-data="411732"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/vUiW+R/37EPmk60cpFoSj"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:XzYKHobzvbYaD71PNunnFmGl6aI=
In-Reply-To: <usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US

by: immibis - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:14 UTC

On 12/03/24 04:37, olcott wrote:
> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>> \
>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>
>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>
>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can ask
>> this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their behavirs.
>
> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>
> Since you know that is false why lie?
> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>
> Since you know that is false why lie?
> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>
> Since you know that is false why lie?
> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>
> Since you know that is false why lie?
> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>
>

Since you know that is false why lie?

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<uspv1n$caqa$5@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55386&group=comp.theory#55386

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 11:14:47 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <uspv1n$caqa$5@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org>
<usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org>
<uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me>
<usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me> <usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me>
<usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me> <usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me>
<usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me> <uspurt$ci2k$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:14:48 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="404298"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19/IbMKfMLR5EaXtJS+lsoZ"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:IpzOzdM90K10HPP1Yu3XnkhQduo=
In-Reply-To: <uspurt$ci2k$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:14 UTC

On 3/12/2024 11:11 AM, immibis wrote:
> On 12/03/24 03:52, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:13 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>> *This is my unique contribution to the field of the Halting
>>>>>>>> Problem*
>>>>>>>> *This is my unique contribution to the field of the Halting
>>>>>>>> Problem*
>>>>>>>> *This is my unique contribution to the field of the Halting
>>>>>>>> Problem*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When we ask H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩:
>>>>>>>> Does your input halt on its input?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We do not ask it that. We ask it whether Ĥ halts on input ⟨Ĥ⟩.
>>>>>>> This is an objective specification, not subjective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When we ask Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ whether Ĥ halts on input ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>> both YES and NO are the wrong answer for Ĥ.H.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer, the
>>>>> whole rebuttal is tossed out as invalid and incorrect.
>>>>
>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>
>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>
> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer, the whole
> rebuttal is tossed out as invalid and incorrect.
>
> That people keep trying to get away with the strawman deception on this
> is very telling.

*I address this in my reply to Richard in my new post*
[Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
questions]

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<uspv4b$ck7j$1@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55387&group=comp.theory#55387

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: news@immibis.com (immibis)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:15:52 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <uspv4b$ck7j$1@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me> <usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me>
<usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me> <usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me>
<usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me> <usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me>
<usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org> <usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me>
<usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org> <usokfn$3h5n$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:16:11 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="cbaaa343687852c36ef2e80d20aa4861";
logging-data="413939"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18iZs7i13q/NqTKh1Cfx45L"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:5iKhwDiKV8uH8R8R4g6apl30vik=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <usokfn$3h5n$2@dont-email.me>

by: immibis - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:15 UTC

On 12/03/24 05:08, olcott wrote:
> ⊢* specifies every possible encoding of H.

Since you know that is false why lie?

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --Olcott willful ignorance--

<uspvbc$caqa$7@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55389&group=comp.theory#55389

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--Olcott_willful_ignorance--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 11:19:56 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <uspvbc$caqa$7@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me>
<usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org> <usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me>
<usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<usne42$1hqqe$4@i2pn2.org> <uso2f2$3sd10$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6d9$1ipmg$2@i2pn2.org> <usobon$3u623$1@dont-email.me>
<usofcr$1j3v1$3@i2pn2.org> <usoht6$2vll$1@dont-email.me>
<uspuun$ci2k$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:19:56 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="404298"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/R/hFDjD697/Qw+NAiSjbL"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:eH01jcD26xZR5bGrVjuMXYbjOsM=
In-Reply-To: <uspuun$ci2k$2@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:19 UTC

On 3/12/2024 11:13 AM, immibis wrote:
> On 12/03/24 04:24, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/11/2024 9:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> There is no correct answer for this (program/input pair): (H/⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩)
>
> Yes there is. If you show me the Turing machine description of Ĥ I will
> tell you whether it halts on its own input or not. As long as it doesn't
> check the Collatz conjecture.
>
> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer, the whole
> rebuttal is tossed out as invalid and incorrect.

*This discussion has moved to my new post*
[Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
questions]

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<uspvcn$caqa$8@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55390&group=comp.theory#55390

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 11:20:39 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <uspvcn$caqa$8@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org>
<uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me>
<usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me> <usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me>
<usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me> <usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me>
<usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me> <usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org>
<usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me> <uspv1h$ci2k$4@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:20:39 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="404298"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19faWx4LljgCZBXgyRrI36E"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:sL0t91yUh7ek01eGpHfquWKhHuA=
In-Reply-To: <uspv1h$ci2k$4@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:20 UTC

On 3/12/2024 11:14 AM, immibis wrote:
> On 12/03/24 04:37, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>> \
>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>
>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>>
>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can ask
>>> this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their
>>> behavirs.
>>
>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>
>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>
>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>
>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>
>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>
>>
>
> Since you know that is false why lie?

*This discussion has moved to my new post*
[Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
questions]

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<uspvd4$caqa$9@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55391&group=comp.theory#55391

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 11:20:52 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <uspvd4$caqa$9@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me>
<usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me> <usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me>
<usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me> <usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me>
<usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me> <usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org>
<usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me> <usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org>
<usokfn$3h5n$2@dont-email.me> <uspv4b$ck7j$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:20:52 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="404298"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18Qf3MNJiK5thDMtr0e1vS4"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:eCtwp8CAH6THyp2iahxCInhkS5w=
In-Reply-To: <uspv4b$ck7j$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:20 UTC

On 3/12/2024 11:15 AM, immibis wrote:
> On 12/03/24 05:08, olcott wrote:
>> ⊢* specifies every possible encoding of H.
>
> Since you know that is false why lie?
>

*This discussion has moved to my new post*
[Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
questions]

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --Olcott willful ignorance--

<usq39k$1l201$8@i2pn2.org>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55398&group=comp.theory#55398

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--Olcott_willful_ignorance--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:27:16 -0700
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <usq39k$1l201$8@i2pn2.org>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjef5$1cf5q$6@i2pn2.org>
<usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me> <usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org>
<usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org>
<uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <usne42$1hqqe$4@i2pn2.org>
<uso2f2$3sd10$1@dont-email.me> <uso6d9$1ipmg$2@i2pn2.org>
<usobon$3u623$1@dont-email.me> <usofcr$1j3v1$3@i2pn2.org>
<usoht6$2vll$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:27:17 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
logging-data="1738753"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <usoht6$2vll$1@dont-email.me>

by: Richard Damon - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:27 UTC

On 3/11/24 8:24 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/11/2024 9:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/11/24 6:39 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2024 7:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/24 4:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/2024 12:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/11/24 6:19 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/11/2024 1:02 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 10:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Every implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ gets the wrong answer*
>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does
>>>>>>>>> not halt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, you have rotely repeated that many times, not knowing what
>>>>>>>> that implies, or doesn't imply.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>   Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does
>>>>>>> not halt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   *Every implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ gets the wrong answer*
>>>>>>>   *Every implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ gets the wrong answer*
>>>>>>>   *Every implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ gets the wrong answer*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A "submachine" doesn't have a requirement except to act as the
>>>>>> machine it is a copy of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no such thing as a sub-machine.
>>>>
>>>> OF course there is.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think H^.H is?
>>>>
>>>> You are just showing how stupid you are.
>>>
>>> An an abstract concept that humans can talk about that
>>> cannot actually be implemented as any actual aspect of
>>> any actual Turing machine.
>>
>> So, you admit you were wrong, and are just stupid.
>>
>> Why isn't H^.H the implementation in the Turing Machine H^ of a
>> submachine that is a copy of H?
>>
>>>
>>> The ghost of Bug Bunny exists as a fictional idea.
>>
>> So seems most of your ideas.
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> So, what you are REALLY Saying is that:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> H (H^) (H^) gets the wrong answer for every implementation of H,
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Both answers of YES and NO are incorrect for any H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>> that is inconsistent with the behavior of Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ when an
>>>>> exact copy of this same H is embedded within Ĥ.
>>>>
>>>> No, there IS a 'Correct answer', it just isn't the one that that H
>>>> gives.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are bullshitting yourself, yet not bullshitting me.
>>> There is no correct answer for the H/⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ program/input pair.
>>
>> If H (H^) (H^) says Qn, as you normally say, then it is a FACT that
>> H^ (H^) will go to Qn and Halt,
>>
>> And thus the CORRECT ANSWER is Qy.
>>
>> If you changed your mind, an now H (H^) (H^) says Qy, then it is a
>> fact that H^ (H^) will also goto Qy and loop forever.
>>
>> And thus, the CORRECT ANSWER is Qn
> There is no correct answer for this (program/input pair): (H/⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩)
>
> That you continue to try to get away with the strawman deception
> and change to any other (program/input pair) seems to prove that
> you are not being honest and have rebuttal rather that truth as your
> priority.
>

And what is wrong with my analysis I have posted seversal times, and to
which you haen't shown an error.

Trying to just catergorise it as a "Strawman" without showing where it
actually DIFFERS from the question that you claim you are working on
(The ACTUAL definition of the Halting Problem), just shows that you are
admitting that you have no actual grounds to refute it and are just
posting puff and bluster in an attempt to pass off your lie.

The problem is that YOU are working on a strawman, as your infinite set
is actually an infinite set of questions, not one question, as the
question is about a SPECIFIC input, which is about a SPECIFIC H^ built
on a SPECIFIC H. Since H^ is a definite machine and not a template (it
is built on a template, but isn't a template itself) when you look at
different values of H^, you are looking at different questions.

You are just proving you have no understanding of the words you are just
parroting out to make you claims, but they are just puff and bluster to
try to sound like you are making your point, but are just proving you to
be an ingnorant self-made idiot.

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<usq3m9$1l201$9@i2pn2.org>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55399&group=comp.theory#55399

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:33:59 -0700
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <usq3m9$1l201$9@i2pn2.org>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me> <usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me>
<usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me> <usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me>
<usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me> <usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me>
<usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org> <usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me>
<usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org> <usok2o$3h5n$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:34:02 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
logging-data="1738753"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <usok2o$3h5n$1@dont-email.me>

by: Richard Damon - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:33 UTC

On 3/11/24 9:01 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/11/2024 10:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/11/24 8:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>>> \
>>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>>
>>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>>>
>>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can
>>>> ask this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their
>>>> behavirs.
>>>
>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>
>>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>
>> Nope, read him again, not just skim and assume.
>>
>> Should Represents the ARBITRARY path that THIS H will do.
>>
>
> I have read it again and again since 2004, you are getting
> this incorrectly. I have two copies of the book.
>

Really, so how does he actually DEFINE that notation, his exact words.

I am sure he doesn't use the words "an infinite set of encodings", as he
will always be talking about a given (but arbitrary) Turing Machine at
any given time, as that is what you run.

My guess is that this is like everything you do, you never bothered to
learn the actual meaning of the words he is using (in the context he is
using them) so your zeroth principles (they are first principles, since
you don't have the actual basics of the field under your belt) give you
wrong meanings to what he is saying.

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<usq3r9$1l201$10@i2pn2.org>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55400&group=comp.theory#55400

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:36:38 -0700
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <usq3r9$1l201$10@i2pn2.org>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me> <usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me>
<usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me> <usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me>
<usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me> <usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me>
<usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org> <usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me>
<usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org> <uspuao$caqa$3@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:37:43 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
logging-data="1738753"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Content-Language: en-US
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
In-Reply-To: <uspuao$caqa$3@dont-email.me>

by: Richard Damon - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:36 UTC

On 3/12/24 9:02 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/11/2024 10:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/11/24 8:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>>> \
>>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>>
>>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>>>
>>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can
>>>> ask this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their
>>>> behavirs.
>>>
>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>
>>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>
>> Nope, read him again, not just skim and assume.
>>
>
> *Here is the proof that I am correct*
> ∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders
> ∃ TMD ∈ Turing_Machine_Descriptions |
> Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)
>
>

So, H, being an ELEMENT of Turing Machine Deciders, is a SINGLE INSTANCE
of it, it is NOT the set itself.

You just don't understand categorical logic.

Yes, you can do this for ANY element, but the following logic is done
one machine at a time.

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --Olcott willful ignorance--

<usq43n$dnd0$1@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55401&group=comp.theory#55401

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--Olcott_willful_ignorance--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:41:11 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <usq43n$dnd0$1@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me>
<usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org> <usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me>
<usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<usne42$1hqqe$4@i2pn2.org> <uso2f2$3sd10$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6d9$1ipmg$2@i2pn2.org> <usobon$3u623$1@dont-email.me>
<usofcr$1j3v1$3@i2pn2.org> <usoht6$2vll$1@dont-email.me>
<usq39k$1l201$8@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:41:11 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="449952"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19PtbBOuMlWjaQprw0RsRM5"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:EuAug4qnxJv7LyB2JNcIthOlwco=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <usq39k$1l201$8@i2pn2.org>

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:41 UTC

On 3/12/2024 12:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/11/24 8:24 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/11/2024 9:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/11/24 6:39 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2024 7:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/24 4:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/11/2024 12:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/11/24 6:19 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2024 1:02 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 10:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Every implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ gets the wrong answer*
>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does
>>>>>>>>>> not halt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, you have rotely repeated that many times, not knowing what
>>>>>>>>> that implies, or doesn't imply.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>   Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does
>>>>>>>> not halt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   *Every implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ gets the wrong answer*
>>>>>>>>   *Every implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ gets the wrong answer*
>>>>>>>>   *Every implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ gets the wrong answer*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A "submachine" doesn't have a requirement except to act as the
>>>>>>> machine it is a copy of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no such thing as a sub-machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> OF course there is.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think H^.H is?
>>>>>
>>>>> You are just showing how stupid you are.
>>>>
>>>> An an abstract concept that humans can talk about that
>>>> cannot actually be implemented as any actual aspect of
>>>> any actual Turing machine.
>>>
>>> So, you admit you were wrong, and are just stupid.
>>>
>>> Why isn't H^.H the implementation in the Turing Machine H^ of a
>>> submachine that is a copy of H?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The ghost of Bug Bunny exists as a fictional idea.
>>>
>>> So seems most of your ideas.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, what you are REALLY Saying is that:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H (H^) (H^) gets the wrong answer for every implementation of H,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both answers of YES and NO are incorrect for any H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>> that is inconsistent with the behavior of Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ when an
>>>>>> exact copy of this same H is embedded within Ĥ.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, there IS a 'Correct answer', it just isn't the one that that H
>>>>> gives.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are bullshitting yourself, yet not bullshitting me.
>>>> There is no correct answer for the H/⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ program/input pair.
>>>
>>> If H (H^) (H^) says Qn, as you normally say, then it is a FACT that
>>> H^ (H^) will go to Qn and Halt,
>>>
>>> And thus the CORRECT ANSWER is Qy.
>>>
>>> If you changed your mind, an now H (H^) (H^) says Qy, then it is a
>>> fact that H^ (H^) will also goto Qy and loop forever.
>>>
>>> And thus, the CORRECT ANSWER is Qn
>> There is no correct answer for this (program/input pair): (H/⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩)
>>
>> That you continue to try to get away with the strawman deception
>> and change to any other (program/input pair) seems to prove that
>> you are not being honest and have rebuttal rather that truth as your
>> priority.
>>
>
> And what is wrong with my analysis I have posted seversal times, and to
> which you haen't shown an error.

*This discussion has moved to my new post*
[Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
questions]

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<usq47d$dnd0$2@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55402&group=comp.theory#55402

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:43:09 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <usq47d$dnd0$2@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me>
<usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me> <usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me>
<usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me> <usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me>
<usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me> <usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org>
<usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me> <usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org>
<usok2o$3h5n$1@dont-email.me> <usq3m9$1l201$9@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:43:09 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="449952"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19Y9nSMQEgMoc/yg30Nwokc"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:MGr1DFnZFWYOJO3o1x42ZL1AxP8=
In-Reply-To: <usq3m9$1l201$9@i2pn2.org>
Content-Language: en-US

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:43 UTC

On 3/12/2024 12:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/11/24 9:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/11/2024 10:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/11/24 8:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>>>> \
>>>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can
>>>>> ask this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their
>>>>> behavirs.
>>>>
>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>
>>>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>>>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>>
>>> Nope, read him again, not just skim and assume.
>>>
>>> Should Represents the ARBITRARY path that THIS H will do.
>>>
>>
>> I have read it again and again since 2004, you are getting
>> this incorrectly. I have two copies of the book.
>>
>
> Really, so how does he actually DEFINE that notation, his exact words.
>

*This discussion has moved to my new post*
[Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
questions]

I formalize the claim of all of the halting problem roofs there.
--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<usq4b9$1l201$11@i2pn2.org>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55403&group=comp.theory#55403

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory

Path: i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:45:11 -0700
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <usq4b9$1l201$11@i2pn2.org>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me> <usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me>
<usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me> <usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me>
<usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me> <usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me>
<usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org> <usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me>
<usp9e8$7nfb$1@dont-email.me> <uspshf$c1qv$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:45:18 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
logging-data="1738753"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <uspshf$c1qv$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0

by: Richard Damon - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:45 UTC

On 3/12/24 8:31 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/12/2024 5:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-03-12 03:37:53 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>>> \
>>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>>
>>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>>>
>>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can
>>>> ask this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their
>>>> behavirs.
>>>
>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>
>>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>
>> No, it does not. The notation is defined by Linz to denote
>> a finite sequence of configurations.
>>
>
> If it is required to report on a single finite sequence of
> configurations then that only proves that there exists some
> halt decider that decides some input incorrectly.
>

Right, but THEN having done that, you can note that you could have
chosen ANY decider for 'that decider', and thus you have proven for all.

That is just categorial logic, shown to be exhaustive.

I thought you claimed to understand how that worked?

Or is this another example of your use of zeroth priciples.

> If it is reporting on every finite sequence of configurations
> then that proves that there does not exist a halt decider that
> decides every input correctly.

It is showing that EVERY machine, taken individually, can be proven wrong.

The proof of wrongness is done on the individual generic machine,

That is just categorical logic.

>
> *Formalized*
> ∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders
> ∃ TMD ∈ Turing_Machine_Descriptions |
> Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)
>
> There is some input TMD to every H such that
> Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)
>

Right, but H is only a single Turing Machine at a time.

H is NOT the "Set" of Machihes, as the element is not the set.

That is basic ZFC, which you claim to know, but apparently not.

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<usq4dg$dnd0$3@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55404&group=comp.theory#55404

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:46:24 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <usq4dg$dnd0$3@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me>
<usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me> <usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me>
<usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me> <usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me>
<usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me> <usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org>
<usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me> <usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org>
<uspuao$caqa$3@dont-email.me> <usq3r9$1l201$10@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:46:24 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="449952"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18eZpymkFFfdoeTFL+Uo2Ul"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:AUHmIvhJTZmAapXWmbibUFSwHM8=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <usq3r9$1l201$10@i2pn2.org>

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:46 UTC

On 3/12/2024 12:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/12/24 9:02 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/11/2024 10:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/11/24 8:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>>>> \
>>>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can
>>>>> ask this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their
>>>>> behavirs.
>>>>
>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>
>>>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>>>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>>
>>> Nope, read him again, not just skim and assume.
>>>
>>
>> *Here is the proof that I am correct*
>> ∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders
>> ∃ TMD ∈ Turing_Machine_Descriptions |
>> Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)
>>
>>
>
> So, H, being an ELEMENT of Turing Machine Deciders, is a SINGLE INSTANCE
> of it, it is NOT the set itself.

∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders *DOES NOT REFER TO A SINGLE INSTANCE*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_logic_symbols

*This discussion has moved to my new post*
[Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
questions]

>
> You just don't understand categorical logic.
>
> Yes, you can do this for ANY element, but the following logic is done
> one machine at a time.

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<usq4f5$dnd0$4@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55405&group=comp.theory#55405

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:47:17 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <usq4f5$dnd0$4@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad>
<uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me>
<uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org>
<usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org>
<usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> <lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad>
<uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me> <uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org>
<uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me> <usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org>
<usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me> <usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org>
<usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me> <usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org>
<usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me> <usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org>
<usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me> <uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me>
<usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me> <usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me>
<usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me> <usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me>
<usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me> <usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org>
<usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me> <usp9e8$7nfb$1@dont-email.me>
<uspshf$c1qv$1@dont-email.me> <usq4b9$1l201$11@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:47:17 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="449952"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+QnSpIxQQyhRknIbDSzGn4"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:Mito07IUA3WYsGoKolIeJCvJ3HI=
In-Reply-To: <usq4b9$1l201$11@i2pn2.org>
Content-Language: en-US

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:47 UTC

On 3/12/2024 12:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/12/24 8:31 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/12/2024 5:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-03-12 03:37:53 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>>>> \
>>>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can
>>>>> ask this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know their
>>>>> behavirs.
>>>>
>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>
>>>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>>>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>>
>>> No, it does not. The notation is defined by Linz to denote
>>> a finite sequence of configurations.
>>>
>>
>> If it is required to report on a single finite sequence of
>> configurations then that only proves that there exists some
>> halt decider that decides some input incorrectly.
>>
>
> Right, but THEN having done that, you can note that you could have
> chosen ANY decider for 'that decider', and thus you have proven for all.
>
> That is just categorial logic, shown to be exhaustive.
>
> I thought you claimed to understand how that worked?
>
> Or is this another example of your use of zeroth priciples.
>
>> If it is reporting on every finite sequence of configurations
>> then that proves that there does not exist a halt decider that
>> decides every input correctly.
>
> It is showing that EVERY machine, taken individually, can be proven wrong.
>
> The proof of wrongness is done on the individual generic machine,
>
> That is just categorical logic.
>
>>
>> *Formalized*
>> ∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders
>> ∃ TMD ∈ Turing_Machine_Descriptions |
>> Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)
>>
>> There is some input TMD to every H such that
>> Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)
>>
>
> Right, but H is only a single Turing Machine at a time.
>
> H is NOT the "Set" of Machihes, as the element is not the set.
>
> That is basic ZFC, which you claim to know, but apparently not.

*This discussion has moved to my new post*
[Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
questions]

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<usq4la$1l201$13@i2pn2.org>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55406&group=comp.theory#55406

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:50:33 -0700
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <usq4la$1l201$13@i2pn2.org>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me> <usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me>
<usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me> <usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me>
<usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me> <usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me>
<usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org> <usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me>
<usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org> <uspuao$caqa$3@dont-email.me>
<usq3r9$1l201$10@i2pn2.org> <usq4dg$dnd0$3@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:50:34 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
logging-data="1738753"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <usq4dg$dnd0$3@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0

by: Richard Damon - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:50 UTC

On 3/12/24 10:46 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/12/2024 12:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/12/24 9:02 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2024 10:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/24 8:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong
>>>>>>> answer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can
>>>>>> ask this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know
>>>>>> their behavirs.
>>>>>
>>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>>
>>>>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>>>>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, read him again, not just skim and assume.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *Here is the proof that I am correct*
>>> ∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders
>>> ∃ TMD ∈ Turing_Machine_Descriptions |
>>> Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> So, H, being an ELEMENT of Turing Machine Deciders, is a SINGLE
>> INSTANCE of it, it is NOT the set itself.
>
> ∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders *DOES NOT REFER TO A SINGLE INSTANCE*
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_logic_symbols

Of COURSE "H" referes to just a single instance at a time.

H is not the set, it is an element of the set

You just don't understand the meaning of categorical logic.

>
> *This discussion has moved to my new post*
> [Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
> questions]
>
>>
>> You just don't understand categorical logic.
>>
>> Yes, you can do this for ANY element, but the following logic is done
>> one machine at a time.
>

Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

<usq4p9$dnd0$5@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55407&group=comp.theory#55407

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory sci.logic

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: polcott2@gmail.com (olcott)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ
⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behav
ior_ZFC_--new_focus--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:52:41 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <usq4p9$dnd0$5@dont-email.me>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usm4id$1enef$24@i2pn2.org> <usm5np$3f27j$2@dont-email.me>
<usm6p0$1enef$25@i2pn2.org> <usn0d2$3klcn$1@dont-email.me>
<uso6gi$3t0l7$3@dont-email.me> <usoa3t$3ttg8$1@dont-email.me>
<usodpd$3uhqb$1@dont-email.me> <usoecc$3ujat$1@dont-email.me>
<usoesp$3uo9o$1@dont-email.me> <usog2a$3utnd$1@dont-email.me>
<usoi9m$1j3v1$5@i2pn2.org> <usoimh$2vll$4@dont-email.me>
<usojqv$1j3v1$6@i2pn2.org> <uspuao$caqa$3@dont-email.me>
<usq3r9$1l201$10@i2pn2.org> <usq4dg$dnd0$3@dont-email.me>
<usq4la$1l201$13@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:52:41 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2de151991156ec4f63802e311fdc7732";
logging-data="449952"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/oOwS9PA/qtF/w7P+9sQp7"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:4Wy4AjKOZSYYBgQ+y1NSIuM2me0=
In-Reply-To: <usq4la$1l201$13@i2pn2.org>
Content-Language: en-US

by: olcott - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:52 UTC

On 3/12/2024 12:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/12/24 10:46 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/12/2024 12:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/12/24 9:02 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2024 10:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/11/24 8:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/11/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/11/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2024 9:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/03/24 03:24, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>> Troll detected.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Once we understand that either YES or NO is the right answer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not for this decider/input question: Ĥ.H / ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>> For that decider/input question both YES and NO are the wrong
>>>>>>>> answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem that you keeep on missing is that by the point we can
>>>>>>> ask this question, H and H^ are FULLY CODED, and thus we know
>>>>>>> their behavirs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>> H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since you know that is false why lie?
>>>>>> ⊢* specifies an infinite set of encodings.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope, read him again, not just skim and assume.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Here is the proof that I am correct*
>>>> ∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders
>>>> ∃ TMD ∈ Turing_Machine_Descriptions |
>>>> Predicted_Behavior(H, TMD) != Actual_Behavior(TMD)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, H, being an ELEMENT of Turing Machine Deciders, is a SINGLE
>>> INSTANCE of it, it is NOT the set itself.
>>
>> ∀ H ∈ Turing_Machine_Deciders *DOES NOT REFER TO A SINGLE INSTANCE*
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_logic_symbols
>
> Of COURSE "H" referes to just a single instance at a time.
>

*You have updated your words to address my objection*

*This discussion has moved to my new post*
[Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
questions]

> H is not the set, it is an element of the set
>
> You just don't understand the meaning of categorical logic.
>
>>
>> *This discussion has moved to my new post*
>> [Proving my 2004 claim that some decider/input pairs are incorrect
>> questions]
>>
>>>
>>> You just don't understand categorical logic.
>>>
>>> Yes, you can do this for ANY element, but the following logic is done
>>> one machine at a time.
>>
>

--
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when reports on the actual behavior that it sees

<usq4vs$1l201$14@i2pn2.org>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55408&group=comp.theory#55408

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory

Path: i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when re
ports_on_the_actual_behavior_that_it_sees
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:56:06 -0700
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <usq4vs$1l201$14@i2pn2.org>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usj2rs$2jut2$2@dont-email.me>
<usj32s$2k5id$1@dont-email.me> <usjd20$2plge$1@dont-email.me>
<usjef5$1cf5q$6@i2pn2.org> <usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me>
<usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org> <usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me>
<usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usm2ps$1enef$22@i2pn2.org> <usm3eg$3em6b$1@dont-email.me>
<usmnka$3imd4$1@dont-email.me> <usn67f$3ltl1$1@dont-email.me>
<usn6m4$3m1o4$1@dont-email.me> <usn84q$3m7k2$3@dont-email.me>
<usp9mv$7pn3$1@dont-email.me> <uspsur$c1qv$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:56:16 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
logging-data="1738753"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <uspsur$c1qv$2@dont-email.me>

by: Richard Damon - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:56 UTC

On 3/12/24 8:39 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/12/2024 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-03-11 15:31:37 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 3/11/2024 10:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-03-11 14:58:55 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/11/2024 5:49 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-03-11 05:05:19 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does your input halt on its input?
>>>>>>> is an incorrect question for each Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is incorrect in sthe sense that it is not the question
>>>>>> asked in the halting problem. Otherwise it can be a reasonable
>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *MIT Professor Michael Sipser agreed this verbatim paragraph is
>>>>> correct*
>>>>> (He has neither reviewed nor agreed to anything else in this paper)
>>>>> (a) If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>>>>> until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never stop
>>>>> running unless aborted then
>>>>> (b) H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>>>> specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>
>>>>> When simulating termination analyzer H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ computes
>>>>> the mapping from its input to its own final state on
>>>>> the basis of the behavior that it actually sees then
>>>>> halting is always computable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Expecting it to compute the mapping from its input on
>>>>> the basis of behavior that it does not see is incorrect.
>>>>
>>>> None of that says anything about correctness of questions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> int sum(int x, int y){ return x + y; }
>>> It is the same as requiring sum(3,4) to report on the sum of 5 + 6.
>>
>> Just read the specification of sum carefully and code accordingly.
>> What you think it should specify is irrelevant.
>>
>
> The specification of the halting problem requires H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to
> report on Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ that (because of pathological self-reference)
> has different behavior than the behavior that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ actually sees.

Nope, the behavior of a SPECIFIC H^ (H^) is always consistant, so no
"Pathology" except that it just happens to make H wrong.

>
> Will you halt if you never abort your simulation?
Wrong question, and a strawman.

Categorically incorrect, as a machine can't do what it doesn't do which
is presumed by the question.

>
> Allows every H to report on the behavior that it actually sees
> and thus eliminate the undecidability of this newly framed halting
> problem.

But we don't care what it sees, at it might be blind, we care about the
actual answer.

>
> When the original halting problem is proven to be unsatisfiable
> only because it is allowed to ask incorrect questions then this
> issue is resolved in the same way that ZFC resolved Russell's
> paradox: Incorrect questions are not allowed.
>

unstisfiable, only in that the CORRECT mapping proves to be uncomputable.

Perfectly valid mapping to be asking about.

This makes it diffferent than the paradox of Naive set theory, where the
sets being talkee about were undefinable.

The ANSWER is definable, making the machine to compute it, turns out to
be impossible.

That is ok in computation theory, as a major focus is what mappings have
computations that compute them, so uncomputable mappings are in the
domain of discussion,

verse undefinable sets are not valid in the general concept of Set Theory.

Re: H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when reports on the actual behavior that it sees --willful ignorance--

<usq537$1l201$15@i2pn2.org>

copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/devel/article-flat.php?id=55409&group=comp.theory#55409

copy link Newsgroups: comp.theory

Path: i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: richard@damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct when re
ports_on_the_actual_behavior_that_it_sees_--willful_ignorance--
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:57:58 -0700
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <usq537$1l201$15@i2pn2.org>
References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usjd20$2plge$1@dont-email.me>
<usjef5$1cf5q$6@i2pn2.org> <usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me>
<usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org> <usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me>
<usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me>
<KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me>
<uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me>
<usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me>
<usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me>
<lttHN.366350$q3F7.85039@fx45.iad> <uslou1$390q2$1@dont-email.me>
<uslpbr$1enef$17@i2pn2.org> <uslu1i$3do6h$1@dont-email.me>
<usm07p$1enef$21@i2pn2.org> <usm1sg$3ebq5$2@dont-email.me>
<usmncj$3il8v$1@dont-email.me> <usn5vc$3ltjo$1@dont-email.me>
<usn70g$3m5q6$1@dont-email.me> <usn9uk$3m7k2$9@dont-email.me>
<usnq3l$1iebk$1@i2pn2.org> <usnsn1$3r622$1@dont-email.me>
<usnvrb$1ikru$1@i2pn2.org> <uso12v$3s1sj$2@dont-email.me>
<usok4g$1j3v1$7@i2pn2.org> <usol6u$3h5n$3@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:58:00 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
logging-data="1738753"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <usol6u$3h5n$3@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0

by: Richard Damon - Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:57 UTC

On 3/11/24 9:20 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/11/2024 11:02 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/11/24 3:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>
>>>> Not for a GIVEN H^.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For every implementation of Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ that can possibly
>>> exist both YES and NO are the wrong answer to the question:
>>> Does Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ halt.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Nope, for any GIVEN implementation of H, which yields an
>> implementation of H^, we have defined, by that given implementation
>> what H (H^) (H^) will do, and H^ will be built on that.
>>
>> Case 1:
>>
>> If H (H^) (H^) goes to qn, then H^.H (H^) (H^) also go to qn, and thus
>> H^ (H^) goes to qn and Halts.
>>
>> So the correct answer is qy.
>>
>>
>> Case 2:
>>
>> If H (H^) (H^) goes to qy, then H^.H (H^) (H^) also go to qy, and thus
>> H^ (H^) goes to qy and Loops.
>>
>> So the correct answer is qn.
>>
>
> By your reasoning since we know that the Liar Paradox:
> "This sentence is not true." is not true, that makes it true.
>

Nope, because the Liar Paradox has no answer that is consistant.

There is no REQUIREMENT that an H exists that gets the right answer, so
we have no paradox, that only comes if you make the FALSE assumption
that an H exists.

You just don't understand how logic works.

devel / comp.theory / Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

Pages:1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8910 11 12 13

server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.81
clearnet tor

19 May, 2024: Line wrapping has been changed to be more consistent with Usenet standards. If you find that it is broken please let me know here rocksolid.nodes.help

devel / comp.theory / Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

devel / comp.theory / Re: Verified fact that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ have different behavior ZFC --new focus--

19 May, 2024: Line wrapping has been changed to be more consistent with Usenet standards.
If you find that it is broken please let me know here rocksolid.nodes.help