Should still be talking about this. I've decided I like it better than the remake of Proving Grounds of ] Mad Overlord. Quite a few Quality of Life improvements. My quest into PGMO looks like: Dlvl 3 has a bunch of traps I've fallen into the same one twice feel like a brute beast. If you're an expert at dlvl 3, look out for a six-legged insect. My quest into Five Ordeals looks like: 1 character lvl 9, damn good!, level the rest up to 8 and then probably get two more to level 9 then go after that switch problem. I'm taking it personally and haven't looked up an online solution.

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 02:54:37 -0800 (PST), Julian <j63840576@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Should still be talking about this. I've decided I like it better
>than the remake of Proving Grounds of ] Mad Overlord. Quite a few
>Quality of Life improvements. My quest into PGMO looks like:
>Dlvl 3 has a bunch of traps I've fallen into the same one twice feel
>like a brute beast. If you're an expert at dlvl 3, look out for a
>six-legged insect. My quest into Five Ordeals looks like: 1
>character lvl 9, damn good!, level the rest up to 8 and then
>probably get two more to level 9 then go after that switch problem.
>I'm taking it personally and haven't looked up an online solution.

From what I can tell, "Wizardry: The Five Ordeals" is a game mainly
aimed at "Wizardry" die-hards. Which is fine, except that game never
really had the biggest audience, and as years went by more and more of
them fled to other games. And even though tile-based dungeon-crawlers
have seen a bit of a resurgence - thanks mostly to nostalgia - they
remain a tiny niche genre. So Wizardry is a small niche in a tinier
niche; no surprise "The Five Ordeals" gets so little discussion.

(that and because, you know, it's Usenet. There's nobody left to
discuss things anyway. ;-)

On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 8:22:34 PM UTC-6, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 02:54:37 -0800 (PST), Julian <j638...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Should still be talking about this. I've decided I like it better
> >than the remake of Proving Grounds of ] Mad Overlord. Quite a few
> >Quality of Life improvements. My quest into PGMO looks like:
> >Dlvl 3 has a bunch of traps I've fallen into the same one twice feel
> >like a brute beast. If you're an expert at dlvl 3, look out for a
> >six-legged insect. My quest into Five Ordeals looks like: 1
> >character lvl 9, damn good!, level the rest up to 8 and then
> >probably get two more to level 9 then go after that switch problem.
> >I'm taking it personally and haven't looked up an online solution.
> From what I can tell, "Wizardry: The Five Ordeals" is a game mainly
> aimed at "Wizardry" die-hards. Which is fine, except that game never
> really had the biggest audience, and as years went by more and more of
> them fled to other games. And even though tile-based dungeon-crawlers
> have seen a bit of a resurgence - thanks mostly to nostalgia - they
> remain a tiny niche genre. So Wizardry is a small niche in a tinier
> niche; no surprise "The Five Ordeals" gets so little discussion.
>
> (that and because, you know, it's Usenet. There's nobody left to
> discuss things anyway. ;-)

That's not what I'm looking for. I mapped and solved Wizardry 6. Wizardry 7 on DosBox has horrible sound quality and is not playable.

On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 8:49:26 PM UTC-6, Julian wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 8:22:34 PM UTC-6, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 02:54:37 -0800 (PST), Julian <j638...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >Should still be talking about this. I've decided I like it better
> > >than the remake of Proving Grounds of ] Mad Overlord. Quite a few
> > >Quality of Life improvements. My quest into PGMO looks like:
> > >Dlvl 3 has a bunch of traps I've fallen into the same one twice feel
> > >like a brute beast. If you're an expert at dlvl 3, look out for a
> > >six-legged insect. My quest into Five Ordeals looks like: 1
> > >character lvl 9, damn good!, level the rest up to 8 and then
> > >probably get two more to level 9 then go after that switch problem.
> > >I'm taking it personally and haven't looked up an online solution.
> > From what I can tell, "Wizardry: The Five Ordeals" is a game mainly
> > aimed at "Wizardry" die-hards. Which is fine, except that game never
> > really had the biggest audience, and as years went by more and more of
> > them fled to other games. And even though tile-based dungeon-crawlers
> > have seen a bit of a resurgence - thanks mostly to nostalgia - they
> > remain a tiny niche genre. So Wizardry is a small niche in a tinier
> > niche; no surprise "The Five Ordeals" gets so little discussion.
> >
> > (that and because, you know, it's Usenet. There's nobody left to
> > discuss things anyway. ;-)
> That's not what I'm looking for. I mapped and solved Wizardry 6. Wizardry 7 on DosBox has horrible sound quality and is not playable.

I misread some of this. Some Wizardry stuff in 5 Ordeals is worse than the Wizardry 1-7 puzzles they are based on. Any label on the switches would be better than total ambiguity. I am not 100% certain it is solvable.
I didn't tell you before but these switches are each connected to a component in an ore-throwing system. It is partly based on a Wizardry 6 puzzle with five switches each labeled with 6 syllable words that you may not use at KFC. Then a paragraph of writing is discovered. Some say it is straightforward. I'll be alright. Those guys told me that shortcut key to throw the computer's power. If I use it sparingly it will get me through.
--
Julian Waldby

On 1/31/2024 3:22 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> From what I can tell, "Wizardry: The Five Ordeals" is a game mainly
> aimed at "Wizardry" die-hards. Which is fine, except that game never
> really had the biggest audience, and as years went by more and more of
> them fled to other games.

The game was created by a Japanese company for the Japanese Wizardry
market. I think the problem is that this is not only for the die-hard
Wizardry fans, this is for Japanese die-hard Wizardry fans and those
might be in an age that doesn't intersect with that of other retrogaming
fans. I think the western release might have been a bit of an
afterthought just to get some additional bucks from potential western fans.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:49:24 -0800 (PST), Julian <j63840576@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 8:22:34?PM UTC-6, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 02:54:37 -0800 (PST), Julian <j638...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >Should still be talking about this. I've decided I like it better
>> >than the remake of Proving Grounds of ] Mad Overlord. Quite a few
>> >Quality of Life improvements. My quest into PGMO looks like:
>> >Dlvl 3 has a bunch of traps I've fallen into the same one twice feel
>> >like a brute beast. If you're an expert at dlvl 3, look out for a
>> >six-legged insect. My quest into Five Ordeals looks like: 1
>> >character lvl 9, damn good!, level the rest up to 8 and then
>> >probably get two more to level 9 then go after that switch problem.
>> >I'm taking it personally and haven't looked up an online solution.
>> From what I can tell, "Wizardry: The Five Ordeals" is a game mainly
>> aimed at "Wizardry" die-hards. Which is fine, except that game never
>> really had the biggest audience, and as years went by more and more of
>> them fled to other games. And even though tile-based dungeon-crawlers
>> have seen a bit of a resurgence - thanks mostly to nostalgia - they
>> remain a tiny niche genre. So Wizardry is a small niche in a tinier
>> niche; no surprise "The Five Ordeals" gets so little discussion.
>>
>> (that and because, you know, it's Usenet. There's nobody left to
>> discuss things anyway. ;-)
>
>That's not what I'm looking for. I mapped and solved Wizardry 6.
>Wizardry 7 on DosBox has horrible sound quality and is not playable.

From what I understand, the fault for that is more with the original
developers - SirTech - than with DOSBox. They essentially recoded
their sound-drivers for the PC Speaker to work with the SoundBlaster's
OPL3 chip, in ways that chip really wasn't intended to be used
(essentially speeding up or throttling its performance to get it to
make sounds). Even in the era, it was known to cause some flakey
sounds unless you were using 100% compatible hardware.

Oddly, you get better sound effects using the PC Speaker (there's some
crackling, but it's not that noticable). Being able to use Roland
music in DOSBox does greatly allieviate some of the pain too.

As for the gameplay, I'm hardly the one to judge. By the time I got
around to playing "Crusaders of the Dark Savant" in the mid '90s, I
had a lot more, better CRPGs under my belt, and my memories of playing
it 'back in the day' largely consist of angry intolerance for its
'old-school' mazes and gameplay. Unfortunately, my opinion of the game
hasn't improved over the years, and - despite a few lackluster
attempts - I've never gotten very far into the game since then (read:
never left the forest in which you begin). So if there are any
problems with the gameplay caused by running it though DOSBox, I'd
never be able to tell. ;-)

But it seems to run well enough. In the forest, at least. ;-P

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:49:24 -0800 (PST), Julian <j63840576@gmail.com>
wrote:

>That's not what I'm looking for. I mapped and solved Wizardry 6. Wizardry 7 on DosBox has horrible sound quality and is not playable.

Make sure you choose Internal Speaker in the configuration window for
Wiz 7. The sound effects, believe it or not, will be better if you
choose Internal Speaker instead of SoundBlaster. They won't be great
mind you, but better.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 20:19:26 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>As for the gameplay, I'm hardly the one to judge. By the time I got
>around to playing "Crusaders of the Dark Savant" in the mid '90s, I
>had a lot more, better CRPGs under my belt, and my memories of playing
>it 'back in the day' largely consist of angry intolerance for its
>'old-school' mazes and gameplay. Unfortunately, my opinion of the game
>hasn't improved over the years, and - despite a few lackluster
>attempts - I've never gotten very far into the game since then (read:
>never left the forest in which you begin). So if there are any
>problems with the gameplay caused by running it though DOSBox, I'd
>never be able to tell. ;-)
>
>But it seems to run well enough. In the forest, at least. ;-P

I hope I have a better impression of the game. I only played the
Wizardry games up to 5 as of right now and other then the fourth one,
I completed and loved them. I actually like making my own maps, so
that won't scare me away from Wiz 6 or 7.

Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
>I hope I have a better impression of the game. I only played the
>Wizardry games up to 5 as of right now and other then the fourth one,
>I completed and loved them. I actually like making my own maps, so
>that won't scare me away from Wiz 6 or 7.

If you don't like Wizardry 6 or 7, I think it'll because they become less
of a dungeon crawl than the earlier games. There more of story in 6,
and even more of one in 7. In 6 you're no longer exploring a simple
dungeon, and in 7 the game finally becomes non-linear, with fairly
extensive outdoor area. I expect you'll like these games anyways, as
the game is basically just catching up with what Might and Magic had
done years earlier.

Wizardry 7 also has automapping so I never bothered making my own maps
when I played. I don't recall having any problems with the sound, but I
never played under DOSBox. On the other hand I played it at least once
without any sound, so that's an option if you don't like what DOSBox
does with it.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:

>If you don't like Wizardry 6 or 7, I think it'll because they become less
>of a dungeon crawl than the earlier games. There more of story in 6,
>and even more of one in 7. In 6 you're no longer exploring a simple
>dungeon, and in 7 the game finally becomes non-linear, with fairly
>extensive outdoor area. I expect you'll like these games anyways, as
>the game is basically just catching up with what Might and Magic had
>done years earlier.
>
>Wizardry 7 also has automapping so I never bothered making my own maps
>when I played. I don't recall having any problems with the sound, but I
>never played under DOSBox. On the other hand I played it at least once
>without any sound, so that's an option if you don't like what DOSBox
>does with it.

I already have Wiz 6 and 7 installed and they both work fine in
regards to sound. I just have not played them yet.

I think you need to put points into the automap skill to get anything
useful out of it for Wiz 7 IIRC. I need the map to be useful right
from the get-go. My own maps will be.

Finally, I do not mind a bit more story in my dungeon crawlers as long
as they don't go overboard. I am sure I will like Wiz 6 and 7 just
fine. It is actually Wiz 8 I am more concerned about. That one uses
level scaling which I do not like.

Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
>I think you need to put points into the automap skill to get anything
>useful out of it for Wiz 7 IIRC. I need the map to be useful right
>from the get-go. My own maps will be.

Yah, you do need to put points into the skill (and get special map item)
but there's really only the starter dungeon where you'd really benefit
from mapping it yourself before you have automapping working.

>Finally, I do not mind a bit more story in my dungeon crawlers as long
>as they don't go overboard. I am sure I will like Wiz 6 and 7 just
>fine. It is actually Wiz 8 I am more concerned about. That one uses
>level scaling which I do not like.

The big problem I had with Wizardry 8 is ranged combat attacks just
taking too long as the missiles fly through the air.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 01:32:56 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:

>Yah, you do need to put points into the skill (and get special map item)
>but there's really only the starter dungeon where you'd really benefit
>from mapping it yourself before you have automapping working.

Ok, I will keep this in mind. I just assumed the automap feature was
going to be next to useless.

>The big problem I had with Wizardry 8 is ranged combat attacks just
>taking too long as the missiles fly through the air.

I think I remember there being a mod for Wiz 8 to speed up the combat
animations? Maybe? I might have the wrong game.

rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) wrote:
>Yah, you do need to put points into the skill (and get special map item)
>but there's really only the starter dungeon where you'd really benefit
>from mapping it yourself before you have automapping working.

Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
>Ok, I will keep this in mind. I just assumed the automap feature was
>going to be next to useless.

I've beaten the game a number of times without making maps. Even that
starter dungeon isn't so complex that you need to map it. There is
one part late in the game where all the walls are invisible where the
automap becomes useless and you'll probably want to get out your graph
paper for that, but its possible to get through with just a mental map.

>I think I remember there being a mod for Wiz 8 to speed up the combat
>animations? Maybe? I might have the wrong game.

I'd assume so by now, but I've only played the base unmodified game.
The ordinary combat animations are fine, it's only shooting long range
weapons and spells at distant enemies where it becomes a real problem.
It wouldn't be too bad if they had disconnected the animations from the
game logic, so multiple shots could fly through the air at once, but you
have to wait for each of your character's shots and each of the enemies'
shots one at a time.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

Mike S. wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
> (Ross Ridge) wrote:
>
>> If you don't like Wizardry 6 or 7, I think it'll because they become less
>> of a dungeon crawl than the earlier games. There more of story in 6,
>> and even more of one in 7. In 6 you're no longer exploring a simple
>> dungeon, and in 7 the game finally becomes non-linear, with fairly
>> extensive outdoor area. I expect you'll like these games anyways, as
>> the game is basically just catching up with what Might and Magic had
>> done years earlier.
>>
>> Wizardry 7 also has automapping so I never bothered making my own maps
>> when I played. I don't recall having any problems with the sound, but I
>> never played under DOSBox. On the other hand I played it at least once
>> without any sound, so that's an option if you don't like what DOSBox
>> does with it.
>
> I already have Wiz 6 and 7 installed and they both work fine in
> regards to sound. I just have not played them yet.
>
> I think you need to put points into the automap skill to get anything
> useful out of it for Wiz 7 IIRC. I need the map to be useful right
> from the get-go. My own maps will be.
>
> Finally, I do not mind a bit more story in my dungeon crawlers as long
> as they don't go overboard. I am sure I will like Wiz 6 and 7 just
> fine. It is actually Wiz 8 I am more concerned about. That one uses
> level scaling which I do not like.
>
I played up to level 8 characters with mostly the guys from the roster
at the beginning. Pentas is a lemon, because he has VIT 8. You'll have
to watch both him and your mage because of it, and I started over and
threw him out.

Lane Larson wrote:
> Mike S. wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
>> (Ross Ridge) wrote:
>>
>>> If you don't like Wizardry 6 or 7, I think it'll because they become
>>> less
>>> of a dungeon crawl than the earlier games.  There more of story in 6,
>>> and even more of one in 7.  In 6 you're no longer exploring a simple
>>> dungeon, and in 7 the game finally becomes non-linear, with fairly
>>> extensive outdoor area.  I expect you'll like these games anyways, as
>>> the game is basically just catching up with what Might and Magic had
>>> done years earlier.
>>>
>>> Wizardry 7 also has automapping so I never bothered making my own maps
>>> when I played.  I don't recall having any problems with the sound, but I
>>> never played under DOSBox.  On the other hand I played it at least once
>>> without any sound, so that's an option if you don't like what DOSBox
>>> does with it.
>>
>> I already have Wiz 6 and 7 installed and they both work fine in
>> regards to sound. I just have not played them yet.
>>
>> I think you need to put points into the automap skill to get anything
>> useful out of it for Wiz 7 IIRC. I need the map to be useful right
>> from the get-go. My own maps will be.
>>
>> Finally, I do not mind a bit more story in my dungeon crawlers as long
>> as they don't go overboard. I am sure I will like Wiz 6 and 7 just
>> fine. It is actually Wiz 8 I am more concerned about. That one uses
>> level scaling which I do not like.
>>
> I played up to level 8 characters with mostly the guys from the roster
> at the beginning.  Pentas is a lemon, because he has VIT 8.  You'll have
> to watch both him and your mage because of it, and I started over and
> threw him out.

It was pretty good with sam thi pri in front, had a ranger to backup and
two rage casters. But then Pentas went down when I was facing a big group.

The new party is
SAM NIN MON RAN MAG PSI

Psionic is kind of new to me, I want to see how he does. These front 3
are much more potent, and I like it. The MON only has 8 VIT, I hope
this goes up. Him being a monk and all he gets pretty good HP gain. Of
the original six I have only kept TREON. He is a good caster.

Mike S. wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
> (Ross Ridge) wrote:
>
>> If you don't like Wizardry 6 or 7, I think it'll because they become less
>> of a dungeon crawl than the earlier games. There more of story in 6,
>> and even more of one in 7. In 6 you're no longer exploring a simple
>> dungeon, and in 7 the game finally becomes non-linear, with fairly
>> extensive outdoor area. I expect you'll like these games anyways, as
>> the game is basically just catching up with what Might and Magic had
>> done years earlier.
>>
>> Wizardry 7 also has automapping so I never bothered making my own maps
>> when I played. I don't recall having any problems with the sound, but I
>> never played under DOSBox. On the other hand I played it at least once
>> without any sound, so that's an option if you don't like what DOSBox
>> does with it.
>
> I already have Wiz 6 and 7 installed and they both work fine in
> regards to sound. I just have not played them yet.
>
> I think you need to put points into the automap skill to get anything
> useful out of it for Wiz 7 IIRC. I need the map to be useful right
> from the get-go. My own maps will be.

Thieves or Fighters don't have anything better to do than Mapping.
Unlike Mythology, Mapping seems to be based on one character, the one
holding onto the map. Therefore it doesn't help to put multiple
characters learning Mapping, unless it is for backup. To have backup
Mapping, I'd suggest having a second character at Mapping 10, because
that's about when the map becomes civilized.

With Mapping 10 I was able to resolve New City and to get to every
locked door available.

Lane Larson wrote:
> Mike S. wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 02:40:08 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
>> (Ross Ridge) wrote:
>>
>>> If you don't like Wizardry 6 or 7, I think it'll because they become
>>> less
>>> of a dungeon crawl than the earlier games.  There more of story in 6,
>>> and even more of one in 7.  In 6 you're no longer exploring a simple
>>> dungeon, and in 7 the game finally becomes non-linear, with fairly
>>> extensive outdoor area.  I expect you'll like these games anyways, as
>>> the game is basically just catching up with what Might and Magic had
>>> done years earlier.
>>>
>>> Wizardry 7 also has automapping so I never bothered making my own maps
>>> when I played.  I don't recall having any problems with the sound, but I
>>> never played under DOSBox.  On the other hand I played it at least once
>>> without any sound, so that's an option if you don't like what DOSBox
>>> does with it.
>>
>> I already have Wiz 6 and 7 installed and they both work fine in
>> regards to sound. I just have not played them yet.
>>
>> I think you need to put points into the automap skill to get anything
>> useful out of it for Wiz 7 IIRC. I need the map to be useful right
>> from the get-go. My own maps will be.
>
> Thieves or Fighters don't have anything better to do than Mapping.
> Unlike Mythology, Mapping seems to be based on one character, the one
> holding onto the map.  Therefore it doesn't help to put multiple
> characters learning Mapping, unless it is for backup.  To have backup
> Mapping, I'd suggest having a second character at Mapping 10, because
> that's about when the map becomes civilized.
>
> With Mapping 10 I was able to resolve New City and to get to every
> locked door available.

You wouldn't be able to do it with mapping at 9 or below. With 10, it's
easy to see unusual places on the map, which indicate you haven't been
there before. Below 10, you just see terrain and blank for unvisited
and nothing else. An unusual looking area could just be a path around a
building that is inaccessible. Walking around with 0 mapping, you
better get out pen and paper and map yourself.

A change from Wizardry VI to Wizardry VII, going back to Wizardry VI
isn't possible for me because the map is well-known and no long drawn
out mapping process. All that time spent mapping was moves taken that
could trigger a random encounter. To get that now, I have to spin
around in circles or some equally inane holding patrol that runs enough
turns for a random encounter to occur. Basically, the pattern of
Wizardry VI is easy to remember, while New City is a random jumble where
mapping is necessary every time through.

I'm putting more points into Mapping and am eager to see what happens at 20.

Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 02:54:37 -0800 (PST), Julian <j63840576@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Should still be talking about this. I've decided I like it better
>> than the remake of Proving Grounds of ] Mad Overlord. Quite a few
>> Quality of Life improvements. My quest into PGMO looks like:
>> Dlvl 3 has a bunch of traps I've fallen into the same one twice feel
>> like a brute beast. If you're an expert at dlvl 3, look out for a
>> six-legged insect. My quest into Five Ordeals looks like: 1
>> character lvl 9, damn good!, level the rest up to 8 and then
>> probably get two more to level 9 then go after that switch problem.
>> I'm taking it personally and haven't looked up an online solution.
>
> From what I can tell, "Wizardry: The Five Ordeals" is a game mainly
> aimed at "Wizardry" die-hards. Which is fine, except that game never
> really had the biggest audience, and as years went by more and more of
> them fled to other games. And even though tile-based dungeon-crawlers
> have seen a bit of a resurgence - thanks mostly to nostalgia - they
> remain a tiny niche genre. So Wizardry is a small niche in a tinier
> niche; no surprise "The Five Ordeals" gets so little discussion.
>
> (that and because, you know, it's Usenet. There's nobody left to
> discuss things anyway. ;-)
>
>
>
>
I got past this area. Part of the problem was tough creatures attacking
me left and right. When my guys were all level 8 or level 9 these
weren't really a threat anymore and I could sit down and solve the
puzzle. I'm having a similar issue in Wizardry VI where we jump in the
pit and fight the giant serpents. They hit like 3 times, and if they
target my mage it's basically over. Considering using the amulet of
life here. Nothing else thus far has engaged it.