On 9/14/2023 3:14 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 04:24:02 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/14/2023 1:15 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>> OK.
>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>
>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>
>>
>> I would do a Clean Install.
>>
>> That way, the install serial number will be different
>> on the two machines.
>>
>> The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
>>
>> But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
>> number is assigned as the software install serial number.
>>
>> slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
>> # "Installation ID"
>>
>> Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
>>
>> Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
>> I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
>> made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
>>
>> What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
>> involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
>> canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
>> more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
>> so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
>> could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
>> Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
>> or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
>> is the most pathological test case I could think of.
>>
>> You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
>> but my personal preference would be a clean install.
>>
>> Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
>> I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
>> enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
>> without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
>> "device list" against that MSA account.
>>
>> I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
>> as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
>> remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
>> the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
>> removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
>> BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
>> EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
>> even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
>> may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
>> The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
>> that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
>> The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
>>
>> Paul
>
> Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
> this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
> I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
> see if the last owner will give me the PIN.
>

When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.

Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.

If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.

If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
once you apply an MSA account to the thing.

It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
available as icons on the lower left.

net user administrator /active:yes

Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
it runs with administrator privilege.

But then the question would be, what could we do about an
MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.

Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
session as the Administrator.

But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
enough, that the path is blocked.

An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.

https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/

Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
product, that the installer-person has purchased.

Paul

On 9/14/2023 5:48 PM, Java Jive wrote:
> On 14/09/2023 22:18, VanguardLH wrote:
>> <gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14 Sep 2023 18:02:31 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>>>>> <gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>>>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>>>>> OK.
>>>>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>>>>> would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?
>>>>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>>>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>>>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
>>>>> hardware?  If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
>>>>> media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
>>>>> fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).
>>>>
>>>>   What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
>>>> 'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
>>>> setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.
>>>>
>>>>   As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
>>>> the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
>>>> but not the same as a fresh install.
>>>>
>>>>> The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
>>>>> (hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible).  With the
>>>>> product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
>>>>> fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
>>>>> license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
>>>>> erase the drives if no license were included).
>>>>
>>>>   Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
>>>> don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
>>>> Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
>>>> product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
>>>> gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.
>>>>
>>>>   Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
>>>> the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
>>>> laptop.
>>>
>>> I will look into that. The only other software on the one I am into
>>> was Skype, Netflix (part of the package from HP) and Office and it
>>> looks like they deactivated Office, I didn't really screw with it but
>>> I did get a pop up saying it was dead after X date, the same date that
>>> was set on the machine. I am going to delete it anyway. It looks like
>>> they did do some cleanup tho.
>>> If I can get a fresh image from MS, I will do that.
>>
>> You go to MS to get their Create Media wizard that creates the ISO for
>> you.
>>
>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
>> https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows11
>
> Depending on what machine is used to do the downloads, or rather what OS is on the machine, he may have to do some registry tweaks or similar to get the Media Creation Tool to work:
> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/media-creation-tool-error-code-0x80072f8f-0x20000/4f8bbe1c-b5af-4cc9-958e-c6c8f3f0b524
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/update-to-enable-tls-1-1-and-tls-1-2-as-default-secure-protocols-in-winhttp-in-windows-c4bd73d2-31d7-761e-0178-11268bb10392
>
>> Windows 10 is a never-expiring trial.  You can bypass entering the
>> product key during the setup, use the trial however long you want, and
>> add the product key later.  Don't know about Win11.
>>
>> As mentioned, the product key on the sticker may not work.  Could be you
>> get a product key sticker from a sheet, and a sysprep image was put on
>> your laptop that was pre-validated.  Companies aren't going to waste
>> time going through the manual validation process.
>
> He has already mentioned and is still quoted above as saying that there is no Product Key sticker.
>

And neither should there be, for a Refurbished PC.
The COA is supposed to be removed, as part of the T&C.
The Refurbisher Kit used to come with media (hologram DVD),
but they stopped doing that half way through the Win7 era,
and I doubt the Win10 kit has media either. My guy at the
computer store downtown, had a cabinet with maybe 30 W7r DVDs
in it, and as I made it clear I would not buy the machine
without a sampling of the Refurbisher media, he had no problem
including it (like he was supposed to). The Refurbisher media,
is very very close to a retail media. I didn't do checksums, but
a visual check of file trees, it looks to be pretty similar.

If this is a "used" PC, then nothing would have been
done to it. In such a case, the user should check the
battery bay, as the COA stick is sometimes place inside
that area to protect the thing from "scratches".
We've had a few people ask for help deciphering scratched
up COA stickers, so it's a real problem.

A used machine could be received in any condition, including
with a bodged KMS license, or with no license at all (on
grace period).

It it is actually a "Win10 laptop", the ACPI MSDM table
in the BIOS contains the key. And that can't really be
removed. But it should also only activate one OS version.
Since Microsoft offers free upgrades, the detail of
that is likely to be "moot". When a laptop uses the MSDM
method, there is no need to attach a COA to the chassis,
and that is why the COA is "missing".

Paul

On 15/09/2023 02:24, Paul wrote:
>
> On 9/14/2023 5:48 PM, Java Jive wrote:
>>
>> On 14/09/2023 22:18, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>> As mentioned, the product key on the sticker may not work.  Could be you
>>> get a product key sticker from a sheet, and a sysprep image was put on
>>> your laptop that was pre-validated.  Companies aren't going to waste
>>> time going through the manual validation process.
>>
>> He has already mentioned and is still quoted above as saying that there is no Product Key sticker.
>
> And neither should there be, for a Refurbished PC.
> The COA is supposed to be removed, as part of the T&C.
> The Refurbisher Kit used to come with media (hologram DVD),
> but they stopped doing that half way through the Win7 era,
> and I doubt the Win10 kit has media either. My guy at the
> computer store downtown, had a cabinet with maybe 30 W7r DVDs
> in it, and as I made it clear I would not buy the machine
> without a sampling of the Refurbisher media, he had no problem
> including it (like he was supposed to). The Refurbisher media,
> is very very close to a retail media. I didn't do checksums, but
> a visual check of file trees, it looks to be pretty similar.
>
> If this is a "used" PC, then nothing would have been
> done to it. In such a case, the user should check the
> battery bay, as the COA stick is sometimes place inside
> that area to protect the thing from "scratches".
> We've had a few people ask for help deciphering scratched
> up COA stickers, so it's a real problem.
>
> A used machine could be received in any condition, including
> with a bodged KMS license, or with no license at all (on
> grace period).
>
> It it is actually a "Win10 laptop", the ACPI MSDM table
> in the BIOS contains the key. And that can't really be
> removed. But it should also only activate one OS version.
> Since Microsoft offers free upgrades, the detail of
> that is likely to be "moot". When a laptop uses the MSDM
> method, there is no need to attach a COA to the chassis,
> and that is why the COA is "missing".

Thanks for the above background. Although your level of knowledge of
this is clearly more detailed than mine, I do know enough to say '+1' to
some of it.

For example, when I first bought this machine, it had Windows 8 on it,
but I was being driven mad by the idiotic 'charms' - a misnomer if
ever there was one - popping up in each corner, and insisted Dell
supply me with a Windows 7 installation disk, and I've used W7 ever
since (although currently it's 10 because I'm still experimenting with
that as detailed in another thread). When I used the Nirsoft Product
Key Scanner, I found the original W8 Product Key was still in the BIOS.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

In message <ue0b4u$2tt34$1@dont-email.me> at Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:14:04,
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes
[]
>Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
>will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
>it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
>Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
>product, that the installer-person has purchased.
>
> Paul
>
I'm pretty certain the OP has bought a couple of "used" machines, rather
than "refurbished".
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I'd rather trust the guys in the lab coats who aren't demanding that I get up
early on Sundays to apologize for being human.
-- Captain Splendid (quoted by "The Real Bev" in mozilla.general, 2014-11-16)

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> If this is a "used" PC, then nothing would have been
> done to it. In such a case, the user should check the
> battery bay, as the COA stick is sometimes place inside
> that area to protect the thing from "scratches".
> We've had a few people ask for help deciphering scratched
> up COA stickers, so it's a real problem.

Many modern laptops, especially consumer-grade (which these ones a
probably *not* (but business ones)) do no longer have battery bays, but
have built-in, hard to remove/replace battery packs.

> A used machine could be received in any condition, including
> with a bodged KMS license, or with no license at all (on
> grace period).
>
> It it is actually a "Win10 laptop", the ACPI MSDM table
> in the BIOS contains the key. And that can't really be
> removed. But it should also only activate one OS version.
> Since Microsoft offers free upgrades, the detail of
> that is likely to be "moot". When a laptop uses the MSDM
> method, there is no need to attach a COA to the chassis,
> and that is why the COA is "missing".

Yes, I think this is the most likely scenario. (FWIW, my HP Windows 11
laptop is like that, key in the BIOS.)

I get the impression that the OP (gfretwell@aol.com) is willing to
wipe the PIN-unkown/can't_get_in laptop and install only Windows 10 or
11 (i.e. lose the third-party software which came with the laptop).

If that's the case, can't he just get the Windows 10 or 11 media on a
USB memory-stick (as per the procedure mentioned before) and boot and
install from that stick?

I.e. unless the BIOS *also* has a password, can't he just boot from
the stick and re-install Windows 10/11, never mind the unknown PIN?

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:14:04 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 9/14/2023 3:14 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 04:24:02 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/14/2023 1:15 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>>> OK.
>>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>>> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>>
>>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would do a Clean Install.
>>>
>>> That way, the install serial number will be different
>>> on the two machines.
>>>
>>> The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
>>>
>>> But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
>>> number is assigned as the software install serial number.
>>>
>>> slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
>>> # "Installation ID"
>>>
>>> Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
>>>
>>> Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
>>> I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
>>> made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
>>>
>>> What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
>>> involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
>>> canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
>>> more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
>>> so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
>>> could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
>>> Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
>>> or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
>>> is the most pathological test case I could think of.
>>>
>>> You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
>>> but my personal preference would be a clean install.
>>>
>>> Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
>>> I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
>>> enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
>>> without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
>>> "device list" against that MSA account.
>>>
>>> I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
>>> as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
>>> remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
>>> the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
>>> removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
>>> BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
>>> EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
>>> even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
>>> may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
>>> The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
>>> that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
>>> The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>> Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
>> this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
>> I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
>> see if the last owner will give me the PIN.
>>
>
>When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
>unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
>to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.
>
>Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
>is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.
>
>If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
>Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
>in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
>or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
>up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
>It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
>use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
>trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
>to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
>likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.
>
>If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
>in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
>registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
>version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
>on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
>Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
>once you apply an MSA account to the thing.
>
>It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
>The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
>so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
>was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
>available as icons on the lower left.
>
> net user administrator /active:yes
>
>Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
>and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
>the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
>it runs with administrator privilege.
>
>But then the question would be, what could we do about an
>MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.
>
>Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
>and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
>Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
>side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
>session as the Administrator.
>
>But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
>by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
>enough, that the path is blocked.
>
>An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
>older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
>whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
>tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
>extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.
>
> https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/
>
>Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
>will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
>it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
>Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
>product, that the installer-person has purchased.
>
> Paul

I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
the media creation tool download.
Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.

Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
tho.
It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
but it seems OK now.

On 15/09/2023 16:24, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
> I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
> refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
> Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
> there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
> a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
> might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
> didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
> go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
> use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
> the media creation tool download.

Have you tried the tweaks in my reply to VanguardLH elsewhere in the
thread? You have to enable versions 1.1 & 1.2 of the TLS protocol for
it to work. I went through this rigmarole a couple of months ago, and,
although such is my sodding ageing memory that I can't remember any
details now, I must have got it to work somehow, because I have the ISOs
to prove it.

> Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
> existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
> start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.

If you want to try to run it in the PXE environment, by all means give
it a go and report back here, but be aware there is no WoW support, so
you must run the right version for your PXE environment - 32-bit
version in a 32-bit PXE, similarly for 64-bit.

> Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
> disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
> C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
> tho.
> It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
> but it seems OK now.

Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 9/15/2023 11:06 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> If this is a "used" PC, then nothing would have been
>> done to it. In such a case, the user should check the
>> battery bay, as the COA stick is sometimes place inside
>> that area to protect the thing from "scratches".
>> We've had a few people ask for help deciphering scratched
>> up COA stickers, so it's a real problem.
>
> Many modern laptops, especially consumer-grade (which these ones a
> probably *not* (but business ones)) do no longer have battery bays, but
> have built-in, hard to remove/replace battery packs.
>
>> A used machine could be received in any condition, including
>> with a bodged KMS license, or with no license at all (on
>> grace period).
>>
>> It it is actually a "Win10 laptop", the ACPI MSDM table
>> in the BIOS contains the key. And that can't really be
>> removed. But it should also only activate one OS version.
>> Since Microsoft offers free upgrades, the detail of
>> that is likely to be "moot". When a laptop uses the MSDM
>> method, there is no need to attach a COA to the chassis,
>> and that is why the COA is "missing".
>
> Yes, I think this is the most likely scenario. (FWIW, my HP Windows 11
> laptop is like that, key in the BIOS.)
>
> I get the impression that the OP (gfretwell@aol.com) is willing to
> wipe the PIN-unkown/can't_get_in laptop and install only Windows 10 or
> 11 (i.e. lose the third-party software which came with the laptop).
>
> If that's the case, can't he just get the Windows 10 or 11 media on a
> USB memory-stick (as per the procedure mentioned before) and boot and
> install from that stick?
>
> I.e. unless the BIOS *also* has a password, can't he just boot from
> the stick and re-install Windows 10/11, never mind the unknown PIN?
>

Sure, but typically the owner wants to make sure that "no assets are lost".
Which is why we try to document what identifiers the machine is showing,
if possible.

Of course you can put media on a USB stick, boot up, and install. As long
as there are no adversarial business laptop things (BIOS password) to get in the way,
it'll work.

When I get a foreign machine (and I've only had two), I do a full backup
first. Then if some sort of forensic activity does something naughty,
I can restore from backup. Take drive out of bay, slave up to technician
machine, do the backup. As otherwise, some protection thingy might
prevent running the Macrium CD. I would simply not buy or work on,
a foreign tablet (eMMC), as the media issues are "too hard for Paul" :-)

Say a machine has had two licenses. It might be nice to preserve both,
if your skills can be stretched to do that. A machine could have an
original key in the ACPI MSDM, plus have a purchased key for the
currently installed (PIN protected) one.

Paul

On 9/15/2023 11:24 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:14:04 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/14/2023 3:14 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 04:24:02 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/14/2023 1:15 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>>>> OK.
>>>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>>>> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>>>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would do a Clean Install.
>>>>
>>>> That way, the install serial number will be different
>>>> on the two machines.
>>>>
>>>> The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
>>>>
>>>> But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
>>>> number is assigned as the software install serial number.
>>>>
>>>> slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
>>>> # "Installation ID"
>>>>
>>>> Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
>>>> I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
>>>> made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
>>>>
>>>> What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
>>>> involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
>>>> canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
>>>> more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
>>>> so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
>>>> could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
>>>> Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
>>>> or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
>>>> is the most pathological test case I could think of.
>>>>
>>>> You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
>>>> but my personal preference would be a clean install.
>>>>
>>>> Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
>>>> I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
>>>> enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
>>>> without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
>>>> "device list" against that MSA account.
>>>>
>>>> I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
>>>> as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
>>>> remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
>>>> the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
>>>> removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
>>>> BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
>>>> EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
>>>> even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
>>>> may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
>>>> The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
>>>> that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
>>>> The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
>>> this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
>>> I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
>>> see if the last owner will give me the PIN.
>>>
>>
>> When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
>> unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
>> to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.
>>
>> Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
>> is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.
>>
>> If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
>> Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
>> in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
>> or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
>> up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
>> It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
>> use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
>> trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
>> to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
>> likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.
>>
>> If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
>> in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
>> registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
>> version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
>> on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
>> Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
>> once you apply an MSA account to the thing.
>>
>> It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
>> The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
>> so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
>> was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
>> available as icons on the lower left.
>>
>> net user administrator /active:yes
>>
>> Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
>> and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
>> the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
>> it runs with administrator privilege.
>>
>> But then the question would be, what could we do about an
>> MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.
>>
>> Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
>> and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
>> Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
>> side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
>> session as the Administrator.
>>
>> But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
>> by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
>> enough, that the path is blocked.
>>
>> An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
>> older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
>> whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
>> tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
>> extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.
>>
>> https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/
>>
>> Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
>> will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
>> it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
>> Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
>> product, that the installer-person has purchased.
>>
>> Paul
>
> I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
> refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
> Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
> there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
> a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
> might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
> didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
> go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
> use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
> the media creation tool download.
> Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
> existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
> start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.
>
> Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
> disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
> C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
> tho.
> It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
> but it seems OK now.
>

On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 17:32:26 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

>On 15/09/2023 16:24, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
>> refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
>> Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
>> there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
>> a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
>> might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
>> didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
>> go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
>> use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
>> the media creation tool download.
>
>Have you tried the tweaks in my reply to VanguardLH elsewhere in the
>thread? You have to enable versions 1.1 & 1.2 of the TLS protocol for
>it to work. I went through this rigmarole a couple of months ago, and,
>although such is my sodding ageing memory that I can't remember any
>details now, I must have got it to work somehow, because I have the ISOs
>to prove it.
>
>> Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
>> existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
>> start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.
>
>If you want to try to run it in the PXE environment, by all means give
>it a go and report back here, but be aware there is no WoW support, so
>you must run the right version for your PXE environment - 32-bit
>version in a 32-bit PXE, similarly for 64-bit.
>
>> Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
>> disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
>> C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
>> tho.
>> It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
>> but it seems OK now.
>
>Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
>can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

I put the working machine back together with a D: and it is letting me
download the ISO from MS without any drama. I will burn it when I get
it over to my 7 machine with the optical drive and see what I can do.
If this will just let me overwrite the old one on the locked out
machine, I will be happy.
I would really like 7 on this other machine but with no USB 2 ports it
is that same dog and pony show I had to go through with the mini. I
still would need to find the drivers too. I would end up selecting
them by chip set from other machines since HP never assembled a set
for this one that I can find.
You say the key is in BIOS somewhere? Where is it?

On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 12:59:59 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 9/15/2023 11:24 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:14:04 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/14/2023 3:14 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 04:24:02 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/14/2023 1:15 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>>>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>>>>> OK.
>>>>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>>>>> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>>>>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>>>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>>>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would do a Clean Install.
>>>>>
>>>>> That way, the install serial number will be different
>>>>> on the two machines.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
>>>>>
>>>>> But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
>>>>> number is assigned as the software install serial number.
>>>>>
>>>>> slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
>>>>> # "Installation ID"
>>>>>
>>>>> Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
>>>>> I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
>>>>> made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
>>>>> involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
>>>>> canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
>>>>> more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
>>>>> so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
>>>>> could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
>>>>> Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
>>>>> or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
>>>>> is the most pathological test case I could think of.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
>>>>> but my personal preference would be a clean install.
>>>>>
>>>>> Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
>>>>> I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
>>>>> enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
>>>>> without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
>>>>> "device list" against that MSA account.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
>>>>> as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
>>>>> remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
>>>>> the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
>>>>> removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
>>>>> BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
>>>>> EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
>>>>> even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
>>>>> may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
>>>>> The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
>>>>> that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
>>>>> The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
>>>> this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
>>>> I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
>>>> see if the last owner will give me the PIN.
>>>>
>>>
>>> When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
>>> unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
>>> to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.
>>>
>>> Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
>>> is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.
>>>
>>> If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
>>> Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
>>> in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
>>> or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
>>> up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
>>> It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
>>> use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
>>> trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
>>> to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
>>> likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.
>>>
>>> If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
>>> in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
>>> registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
>>> version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
>>> on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
>>> Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
>>> once you apply an MSA account to the thing.
>>>
>>> It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
>>> The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
>>> so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
>>> was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
>>> available as icons on the lower left.
>>>
>>> net user administrator /active:yes
>>>
>>> Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
>>> and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
>>> the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
>>> it runs with administrator privilege.
>>>
>>> But then the question would be, what could we do about an
>>> MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
>>> and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
>>> Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
>>> side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
>>> session as the Administrator.
>>>
>>> But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
>>> by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
>>> enough, that the path is blocked.
>>>
>>> An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
>>> older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
>>> whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
>>> tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
>>> extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.
>>>
>>> https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/
>>>
>>> Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
>>> will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
>>> it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
>>> Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
>>> product, that the installer-person has purchased.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>> I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
>> refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
>> Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
>> there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
>> a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
>> might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
>> didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
>> go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
>> use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
>> the media creation tool download.
>> Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
>> existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
>> start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.
>>
>> Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
>> disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
>> C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
>> tho.
>> It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
>> but it seems OK now.
>>
>
>You can't download this on a Win10 machine which is running Windows Defender,
>as it will be quarantined and declared "HackerWare", whatever that means.
>It's possible a Win7 machine might download it. But once you have it,
>if a "live Win10" gets a whiff, Windows Defender will be "at it". Using
>a Windows installer DVD, and the Command Prompt window, might be a bit "safer".
>I do not know if MagicJellyBean or Belarc Advisor receive this treatment from
>Microsoft or not. The disclaimers of capability, don't look so good (I'm
>not sure this will give a complete picture of your laptop).
>
>https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_cd_key_viewer.html
>
> "ProduKey is a small utility that displays the ProductID and the CD-Key of
>
> Microsoft Office (Microsoft Office 2003, Microsoft Office 2007)
> Windows (Including Windows 8/7/Vista)
> Exchange Server
> SQL Server
>
> installed on your computer. You can view this information for your
> current running operating system, or for another operating system/computer,
> by using command-line options.
>
> This utility can be useful if you lost the product key of your Windows/Office,
> and you want to reinstall it on your computer.
>
> ProduKey works on all versions of Windows. Both 32-bit and 64-bit systems are
> supported. However, some features, like viewing the product keys of
> another operating system instance, are only supported on Windows 2000/XP/2003/2008/Vista/7/8.
> "
>
>It's hard to tell whether it knows about ACPI MSDM or not, as MSDM started in Win8 era.
>MSDM is used, for the OS that shipped on the laptop.
>
>Keys like:
>
>VK7JG-NPHTM-C97JM-9MPGT-3V66T (Windows 10 Professional) <--- X79
>YTMG3-N6DKC-DKB77-7M9GH-8HVX7 (Windows 10 Home - multi language) <--- laptop!
>BT79Q-G7N6G-PGBYW-4YWX6-6F4BT (Windows 10 Home - single language)
>
>are place-holders when doing the Free Upgrade. The 3V66T one for example,
>cannot be used in a reinstall. The presence of that one, means the
>machine is registered with Microsoft, and a second attempt to install
>Windows 10 will "just work". slmgr /dlv will reveal such an install
>is automatically activated (should have activated status within a reboot
>or two).
>
>It's when a person buys a Win10 with Key, and installs the Key (say, while
>the network cable is disconnected), that a "real key" value would show
>in ProduKey. But in such cases, the key is still registered with Microsoft.
>
>Sometimes, presentation of a "key", is to correct for confusion on the
>Microsoft end. A user could buy a Win10 Home laptop (MSDM) and it would activate,
>then install Win10 Pro (Key). Later, when they want to reinstall, using the Key
>value might help with a reinstall of the Pro one. Otherwise, sometime weird might
>happen when it considers the Home credentials.
>
>The state diagram for what could happen, is of a fair size :-) Generally
>you get the correct outcome, but... it's Microsoft.
>
>This will list a few more tools.
>
> https://alternativeto.net/software/produkey/
>
>This might be the feature set I was thinking of.
>
> https://alternativeto.net/software/showkeyplus/about/
>
>The OP might have a sufficient fleet, to have a "good candidate"
>for testing such tools (a machine with a Win10 MSDM, plus a purchased
>Win10 Pro installed over top of the original Win10 Home, presenting
>two key values for showkeyplus to print out.
>
>I do so little key munging, there's hardly a reason to "keep a collection
>and keep-em honed". My test cases here, just aren't good enough to
>certify a tool for the hard cases.
>
>*******
>
>A 32-bit WinPE, can sometimes run 32-bit utilities. I have used a Macrium 32-bit
>CD, to run something like HDTune. Not all utilities will run that way. Only some
>of them. Originally, the WinPE might have not supported anything like that. I use
>the 32-bit CD, because I've noticed more things work with 32-bit software,
>than with 64-bit environments. That's why I have a 32-bit CD in the CD stack,
>just for this purpose (potential of technician runtime environment). Maybe I
>would test and see if a ShowKeyPlus could run from there. Most of the Macrium
>CDs in the stack, are 64-bit ones.
>
> Paul
>

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:01:09 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> Maybe as another suggested it does ones in "the big 8",

Newsgroup alt.comp.os.windows-xp was added to Google Groups
in December 2002, after Google took over dejanews.

> or another
> possibility that occurs to me is that maybe it has some mechanism by
> which users can request additions, rather than it doing them
> automatically as they appear.

Google Groups' mechanism for _users_ to request additions
seems to have disappeared many years ago.

--
Kind regards
Ralph Fox

​️Æᵹhwæꞇ ꝼoꞃealꝺað þæꞅ þe ece ne bẏð.

On 15.09.23 18:59, Paul wrote:
> On 9/15/2023 11:24 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:14:04 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/14/2023 3:14 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 04:24:02 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/14/2023 1:15 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>>>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>>>>> OK.
>>>>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>>>>> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>>>>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>>>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>>>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would do a Clean Install.
>>>>>
>>>>> That way, the install serial number will be different
>>>>> on the two machines.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
>>>>>
>>>>> But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
>>>>> number is assigned as the software install serial number.
>>>>>
>>>>> slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
>>>>> # "Installation ID"
>>>>>
>>>>> Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
>>>>> I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
>>>>> made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
>>>>> involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
>>>>> canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
>>>>> more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
>>>>> so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
>>>>> could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
>>>>> Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
>>>>> or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
>>>>> is the most pathological test case I could think of.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
>>>>> but my personal preference would be a clean install.
>>>>>
>>>>> Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
>>>>> I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
>>>>> enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
>>>>> without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
>>>>> "device list" against that MSA account.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
>>>>> as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
>>>>> remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
>>>>> the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
>>>>> removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
>>>>> BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
>>>>> EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
>>>>> even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
>>>>> may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
>>>>> The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
>>>>> that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
>>>>> The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
>>>> this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
>>>> I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
>>>> see if the last owner will give me the PIN.
>>>>
>>>
>>> When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
>>> unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
>>> to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.
>>>
>>> Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
>>> is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.
>>>
>>> If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
>>> Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
>>> in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
>>> or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
>>> up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
>>> It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
>>> use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
>>> trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
>>> to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
>>> likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.
>>>
>>> If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
>>> in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
>>> registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
>>> version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
>>> on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
>>> Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
>>> once you apply an MSA account to the thing.
>>>
>>> It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
>>> The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
>>> so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
>>> was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
>>> available as icons on the lower left.
>>>
>>> net user administrator /active:yes
>>>
>>> Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
>>> and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
>>> the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
>>> it runs with administrator privilege.
>>>
>>> But then the question would be, what could we do about an
>>> MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
>>> and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
>>> Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
>>> side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
>>> session as the Administrator.
>>>
>>> But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
>>> by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
>>> enough, that the path is blocked.
>>>
>>> An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
>>> older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
>>> whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
>>> tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
>>> extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.
>>>
>>> https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/
>>>
>>> Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
>>> will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
>>> it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
>>> Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
>>> product, that the installer-person has purchased.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>> I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
>> refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
>> Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
>> there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
>> a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
>> might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
>> didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
>> go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
>> use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
>> the media creation tool download.
>> Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
>> existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
>> start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.
>>
>> Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
>> disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
>> C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
>> tho.
>> It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
>> but it seems OK now.
>>
>
> You can't download this on a Win10 machine which is running Windows Defender,
> as it will be quarantined and declared "HackerWare", whatever that means.
> It's possible a Win7 machine might download it. But once you have it,
> if a "live Win10" gets a whiff, Windows Defender will be "at it". Using
> a Windows installer DVD, and the Command Prompt window, might be a bit "safer".
> I do not know if MagicJellyBean or Belarc Advisor receive this treatment from
> Microsoft or not. The disclaimers of capability, don't look so good (I'm
> not sure this will give a complete picture of your laptop).
>
> https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_cd_key_viewer.html
>
> "ProduKey is a small utility that displays the ProductID and the CD-Key of
>
> Microsoft Office (Microsoft Office 2003, Microsoft Office 2007)
> Windows (Including Windows 8/7/Vista)
> Exchange Server
> SQL Server
>
> installed on your computer. You can view this information for your
> current running operating system, or for another operating system/computer,
> by using command-line options.
>
> This utility can be useful if you lost the product key of your Windows/Office,
> and you want to reinstall it on your computer.
>
> ProduKey works on all versions of Windows. Both 32-bit and 64-bit systems are
> supported. However, some features, like viewing the product keys of
> another operating system instance, are only supported on Windows 2000/XP/2003/2008/Vista/7/8.
> "
>
> It's hard to tell whether it knows about ACPI MSDM or not, as MSDM started in Win8 era.
> MSDM is used, for the OS that shipped on the laptop.
>
> Keys like:
>
> VK7JG-NPHTM-C97JM-9MPGT-3V66T (Windows 10 Professional) <--- X79
> YTMG3-N6DKC-DKB77-7M9GH-8HVX7 (Windows 10 Home - multi language) <--- laptop!
> BT79Q-G7N6G-PGBYW-4YWX6-6F4BT (Windows 10 Home - single language)
>
> are place-holders when doing the Free Upgrade. The 3V66T one for example,
> cannot be used in a reinstall. The presence of that one, means the
> machine is registered with Microsoft, and a second attempt to install
> Windows 10 will "just work". slmgr /dlv will reveal such an install
> is automatically activated (should have activated status within a reboot
> or two).
>
> It's when a person buys a Win10 with Key, and installs the Key (say, while
> the network cable is disconnected), that a "real key" value would show
> in ProduKey. But in such cases, the key is still registered with Microsoft.
>
> Sometimes, presentation of a "key", is to correct for confusion on the
> Microsoft end. A user could buy a Win10 Home laptop (MSDM) and it would activate,
> then install Win10 Pro (Key). Later, when they want to reinstall, using the Key
> value might help with a reinstall of the Pro one. Otherwise, sometime weird might
> happen when it considers the Home credentials.
>
> The state diagram for what could happen, is of a fair size :-) Generally
> you get the correct outcome, but... it's Microsoft.
>
> This will list a few more tools.
>
> https://alternativeto.net/software/produkey/
>
> This might be the feature set I was thinking of.
>
> https://alternativeto.net/software/showkeyplus/about/
>
> The OP might have a sufficient fleet, to have a "good candidate"
> for testing such tools (a machine with a Win10 MSDM, plus a purchased
> Win10 Pro installed over top of the original Win10 Home, presenting
> two key values for showkeyplus to print out.
>
> I do so little key munging, there's hardly a reason to "keep a collection
> and keep-em honed". My test cases here, just aren't good enough to
> certify a tool for the hard cases.
>
> *******
>
> A 32-bit WinPE, can sometimes run 32-bit utilities. I have used a Macrium 32-bit
> CD, to run something like HDTune. Not all utilities will run that way. Only some
> of them. Originally, the WinPE might have not supported anything like that. I use
> the 32-bit CD, because I've noticed more things work with 32-bit software,
> than with 64-bit environments. That's why I have a 32-bit CD in the CD stack,
> just for this purpose (potential of technician runtime environment). Maybe I
> would test and see if a ShowKeyPlus could run from there. Most of the Macrium
> CDs in the stack, are 64-bit ones.
>
> Paul
>
>
Thanks.. (XP PRO) worked nicely.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 17:32:26 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

>Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
>can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
Here are the first five prices I found:

$16.99
$24.99
$15.99
$16.99
$8.99

All the others I saw were also under $30.

On 16/09/2023 05:34, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 17:32:26 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 15/09/2023 16:24, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
>>> refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
>>> Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
>>> there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
>>> a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
>>> might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
>>> didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
>>> go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
>>> use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
>>> the media creation tool download.
>>
>> Have you tried the tweaks in my reply to VanguardLH elsewhere in the
>> thread? You have to enable versions 1.1 & 1.2 of the TLS protocol for
>> it to work. I went through this rigmarole a couple of months ago, and,
>> although such is my sodding ageing memory that I can't remember any
>> details now, I must have got it to work somehow, because I have the ISOs
>> to prove it.
>>
>>> Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
>>> existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
>>> start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.
>>
>> If you want to try to run it in the PXE environment, by all means give
>> it a go and report back here, but be aware there is no WoW support, so
>> you must run the right version for your PXE environment - 32-bit
>> version in a 32-bit PXE, similarly for 64-bit.
>>
>>> Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
>>> disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
>>> C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
>>> tho.
>>> It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
>>> but it seems OK now.
>>
>> Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
>> can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

???

> I put the working machine back together with a D: and it is letting me
> download the ISO from MS without any drama. I will burn it when I get
> it over to my 7 machine with the optical drive and see what I can do.
> If this will just let me overwrite the old one on the locked out
> machine, I will be happy.

But you would have authentication problems.

> I would really like 7 on this other machine but with no USB 2 ports it
> is that same dog and pony show I had to go through with the mini. I
> still would need to find the drivers too. I would end up selecting
> them by chip set from other machines since HP never assembled a set
> for this one that I can find.

No USB at all? Or just no USB-A, which is what I suspect you really
mean when you say no USB-2 (AIUI, the former refers to the type of
connector, the latter to the protocols supported)? Are you saying that
it has only USB-C ports? It's true that I'm getting a little out of
touch since the days when I used to create the Windows builds for all
the UK PCs in an international financial services firm, but I've not
heard of a PC with no USB ports at all, and I can't find in the thread
anywhere where you have stated the actual model of the PC, only that
it's HP.

> You say the key is in BIOS somewhere? Where is it?

Depending on the manufacturer, quite possibly not where you can read it
by going into the BIOS on boot, but Paul would probably be better placed
to answer that than I. However, if you can get the Nirsoft Product Key
Scanner to work, that found it for me.

Certainly, on this Dell Inspiron 15RSE 7520, I can't see my W8 product
key when I press <F2> on boot to go into the BIOS; besides the normal
BIOS content that you would expect, there is only the Dell service tag
ID, which, on older models than this, is also on a label on the
underside of the PC. Perhaps HP have a similar thing, and you might be
able to query them for the Windows Product Key originally supplied with
their service tag? If it's as recent as the W7 era, you can then use
that, and upgrade it to Windows 10 for free?

As I see it, you have a number of options:

1) Badger the original user a little harder to try and get the PIN.
They might very understandably not wish to reveal their PIN to an
unknown schmuck, but if they're local to you and either you took the
laptop to them or you could arrange to meet on neutral ground such as a
cafe, and let them unlock it, you could then remove the PIN while
they're still present, check that you can get into it after a reboot,
thank them suitably for their trouble and time, perhaps buy them a
coffee, and henceforth all would be fine.

2) I've checked that the Nirsoft Product Key Scanner will indeed run in
the PXE environment, remembering that you *MUST* use the 32-bit version
in a 32-bit PXE, and similarly for 64-bit. While or after creating your
installation media, copy the appropriate version across to the media,
boot from it, choose the R option for 'Repair', and then go into a
command prompt to run it. However, because the system isn't 'running'
when you're in the PXE, you have give it the path to the Software
registry hive of the system, which in my case is:
C:\Windows\System32\config\SOFTWARE

3) As you say that the PC has not been 'refurbished' or reinstalled
before selling on as used, it seems to me possible that, despite Paul's
doubts, the On-Screen Keyboard (OSK) hack that I linked to a video of
may actually work. Surely at least it's got to be worth a try? Don't
forget afterwards to replace the osk.exe file with the original, though.

4) Accept the loss of the Windows Product Key and any other similarly
copyright-protected software, and reinstall, if desired buying a new Win
10 Product Key.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 9/16/2023 1:09 PM, Java Jive wrote:

> Depending on the manufacturer, quite possibly not where you can read it by going into the BIOS on boot, but Paul would probably be better placed to answer that than I.  However, if you can get the Nirsoft Product Key Scanner to work, that found it for me.

The ACPI MSDM is in the ACPI table.
You can dump that from Linux if you want. Using a LiveDVD.

The ACPI table, does not have a representation in the
BIOS window itself.

When a PC shuts down, the ACPI table has an "object" called
the Power Button. And it is via the Power Button object,
that the OS asks the machine to shut down. When I booted
a machine with a Linux DVD and entered "noacpi" as a boot-time
option, at the end of the session... the computer could not
shut down :-) Because, of course, with ACPI subsystem disabled,
it could not have a Power Button to use. ACPI Objects get around
the "direct access to hardware" problem. You don't need "giveio.sys"
to operate a Power Button. You don't need a special driver to
punch a hole in the security.

> 3)  As you say that the PC has not been 'refurbished' or reinstalled before selling on as used, it seems to me possible that, despite Paul's doubts, the On-Screen Keyboard (OSK) hack that I linked to a video of may actually work.  Surely at least it's got to be worth a try?  Don't forget afterwards to replace the osk.exe file with the original, though.

There was a summary web page (a home user page), listing the known hacks.
At the time I visited the site, the OSK.exe had been struck off
and no longer available, and there was one hack left. (The remaining hack
is a different kind of hack, and not an EXE substitution hack.)
Now, if Microsoft finds that page, then there will be zero hacks left :-)

The OP can shop here. This is not the page I was using before,
and it's missing the non-EXE flavored ones.

https://www.trustedsec.com/blog/playing-with-old-hacks/

Paul

On 16/09/2023 16:07, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 17:32:26 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
>> can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!
>
>
> Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
> Here are the first five prices I found:
>
> $16.99
> $24.99
> $15.99
> $16.99
> $8.99
>
> All the others I saw were also under $30.

Not here in the UK to fit the particular PC:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/360454675349 about £91 inc P&P from Germany
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295207189809 2 x £46.79
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Komputerbay-PC2-6400-DDR2-800-SoDIMM-Channel/dp/B003D18Q7W
£92.07

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 08:07:22 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 17:32:26 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
>>can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!
>
>
>Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
>Here are the first five prices I found:
>
>$16.99
>$24.99
>$15.99
>$16.99
>$8.99
>
>All the others I saw were also under $30.

The $30 was 16g (top of the box here) but I am not sure it would work
since HP says you use 2 8g to get to 16. Sorry for any confusion. Mi
mind is mush at this point ;)

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 18:09:01 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
..
>
>> I would really like 7 on this other machine but with no USB 2 ports it
>> is that same dog and pony show I had to go through with the mini. I
>> still would need to find the drivers too. I would end up selecting
>> them by chip set from other machines since HP never assembled a set
>> for this one that I can find.
>
>No USB at all? Or just no USB-A, which is what I suspect you really
>mean when you say no USB-2 (AIUI, the former refers to the type of
>connector, the latter to the protocols supported)? Are you saying that
>it has only USB-C ports? It's true that I'm getting a little out of
>touch since the days when I used to create the Windows builds for all
>the UK PCs in an international financial services firm, but I've not
>heard of a PC with no USB ports at all, and I can't find in the thread
>anywhere where you have stated the actual model of the PC, only that
>it's HP.
The mini I loaded only had USB 3.0 ports, no USB 2.0 (speed of the
port, they both use the A connector) A W/7 disk does not have a USB 3
driver. There were some gyrations to slip a USB 3 driver into the ISO
and create a stick to load it. I can't find that stick, but I haven't
really looked that hard.
I got a fresh load of 11 on the locked out machine after some hoops to
jump through.

On 9/16/2023 11:07 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 17:32:26 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
>> can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!
>
>
> Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
> Here are the first five prices I found:
>
> $16.99
> $24.99
> $15.99
> $16.99
> $8.99
>
> All the others I saw were also under $30.
>

Each RAM type has a different price, and
a different reason for price movement.

That's why you cannot "just ask for 8GB" and
have the returned results make sense. Each of these
will have a different story.

PC133
DDR400
DDR2-800
DDR3-1066
DDR4-3200
DDR5-5600

DRAM controllers have limited Address bits.
If you use a too-large DIMM, Intel or AMD may not
have planned for such an animal, and only half the
DIMM can be addressed. That's why some of the "big"
DIMMs, you might get a surprise when you buy them and
the motherboard doesn't like what you bought.

As far as the transfer speed goes, we can use PC133
as an example. Theoretical is 8*133 = 1066MB/sec. Well,
the measured transfer rate was only 300MB/sec. Many SSDs
are faster than that. And that is the RAM we were using
around the year 2001.

The memtest screen can tell you, how "smoking fast"
your fancy RAM is. It has the ability to measure the transfer rate.
The Stream benchmark should be able to do that too, but I like
memtest for this. Memtest flushes the cache, before doing the
test.

Paul

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 21:02:40 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote:
> In message <j7s5gi5bu4c8tmjfn1blchbfmvuk8i7t0k@4ax.com> at Fri, 15 Sep
> 2023 00:19:33, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> writes
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:09:36 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
[]
>> or another
>> possibility that occurs to me is that maybe it has some mechanism by
>> which users can request additions, rather than it doing them
>> automatically as they appear.
>
> Google Groups' mechanism for _users_ to request additions
> seems to have disappeared many years ago.

Here is an archived link to that mechanism, from July 2005.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20050721035854/http://groups.google.com:80/googlegroups/help.html#added>

See item #14, "How can I ask for a newsgroup to be added?"

That mechanism seems no longer to exist.

--
Kind regards
Ralph Fox

Eorðmægen ealdaþ, ellen cealdað.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 21:57:21 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 9/16/2023 11:07 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 17:32:26 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
>>> can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!
>>
>>
>> Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
>> Here are the first five prices I found:
>>
>> $16.99
>> $24.99
>> $15.99
>> $16.99
>> $8.99
>>
>> All the others I saw were also under $30.
>>
>
>Each RAM type has a different price, and
>a different reason for price movement.
>
>That's why you cannot "just ask for 8GB" and
>have the returned results make sense. Each of these
>will have a different story.
>
> PC133
> DDR400
> DDR2-800
> DDR3-1066
> DDR4-3200
> DDR5-5600
>
>DRAM controllers have limited Address bits.
>If you use a too-large DIMM, Intel or AMD may not
>have planned for such an animal, and only half the
>DIMM can be addressed. That's why some of the "big"
>DIMMs, you might get a surprise when you buy them and
>the motherboard doesn't like what you bought.
>
>As far as the transfer speed goes, we can use PC133
>as an example. Theoretical is 8*133 = 1066MB/sec. Well,
>the measured transfer rate was only 300MB/sec. Many SSDs
>are faster than that. And that is the RAM we were using
>around the year 2001.
>
>The memtest screen can tell you, how "smoking fast"
>your fancy RAM is. It has the ability to measure the transfer rate.
>The Stream benchmark should be able to do that too, but I like
>memtest for this. Memtest flushes the cache, before doing the
>test.
>
> Paul

Yup I figured out a long time ago, you need to buy a RAM stick that
was tested in your machine type and listed on the MFG specs. Even then
I have had trouble if it was a different version of the same part from
the same company.

On 9/17/2023 1:55 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

>
> Yup I figured out a long time ago, you need to buy a RAM stick that
> was tested in your machine type and listed on the MFG specs. Even then
> I have had trouble if it was a different version of the same part from
> the same company.
>

Yes, even though Kingston has "datasheets" which show a
drawing of a DIMM and a certain memory chip on it, they
were shipping two versions of DIMM, with high density
chips on one (single sided DIMM) versus the spec sheet
which called for low density (double sided DIMM). The
low density DIMM was the working DIMM, needing one less
address bit.

Kingston did not make these. They're made by a third party
and a Kingston label slapped on them.

Crucial wouldn't do that. They have a pretty good record on
making a good version for purpose. Normally Micron chips
ship on their DIMMs (they are a subsidiary of Micron), but
when the Micron chips sucked, they put Samsung chips on
some DIMMs for a few years. I had a Crucial Ballistix, where
one chip blew out and went tristate (flapped in the breeze).
The scrolling in Memtest was just crazy :-)

Paul

On 17/09/2023 06:43, Ralph Fox wrote:
>
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 21:02:40 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote:
>>
>> Google Groups' mechanism for _users_ to request additions
>> seems to have disappeared many years ago.
>
> Here is an archived link to that mechanism, from July 2005.
> <https://web.archive.org/web/20050721035854/http://groups.google.com:80/googlegroups/help.html#added>
>
> See item #14, "How can I ask for a newsgroup to be added?"
>
> That mechanism seems no longer to exist.

That is pretty standard Google behaviour. I've known other examples
where their documentation has remained online despite being a decade or
more out of date, and therefore had become downright misleading.
Problem is: too much Artificial Stupidity, not enough real live humans.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Java Jive wrote on 17/9/23 9:17 pm:
> On 17/09/2023 06:43, Ralph Fox wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 21:02:40 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote:
>>>
>>> Google Groups' mechanism for _users_ to request additions seems
>>> to have disappeared many years ago.
>>
>> Here is an archived link to that mechanism, from July 2005.
>> <https://web.archive.org/web/20050721035854/http://groups.google.com:80/googlegroups/help.html#added>
>>
>> See item #14, "How can I ask for a newsgroup to be added?"
>>
>> That mechanism seems no longer to exist.
>
> That is pretty standard Google behaviour. I've known other examples
> where their documentation has remained online despite being a decade
> or more out of date, and therefore had become downright misleading.
> Problem is: too much Artificial Stupidity, not enough real live
> humans.
>
Hey!! Even Google has to save a Buck or Two when it can!! ;-)
--
Daniel