This is sort of an outgrowth of a question I posted on alt.online-
service.comcast, 7/19/2023. My question now relates more to Windows 10.

A friend is considering purchasing a home in Camino, California.� That's
about 10 miles from Placerville.� Because this will be an AirBnB home,
internet and TV are very important.�
The current resident (seller) has ATT internet (copper cable) and ATT
DirecTV (satellite).� So, TV will suffice.

About internet, I called ATT to see what internet speeds are available at
this home, and I was told there's only one plan, which provides 'up to 18
Mbps' and that's when connected to the gateway.� He worries that speeds may
be extremely slow, and especially slow when connected via WiFi, rather than
directly to the gateway (ethernet).� He wonders if 18 Mbps will be enough
for streaming, as many do these days, not caring for cable.

I was able to check on the wifi speeds, but don't understand what I
recorded. Here's what happened.

I and the buyer's agent arrived at the seller's home. The seller had
given both of us his password so we could both connect simultaneously and
see if the 18 Mbps ATT speed was enough for streaming both of us at the
same time. The agent has an Apple laptop and wireless streamed a Netflix
child's cartoon to her laptop.

With my Windows 10 Home laptop, I connected to youtube.com and streamed a
Tom Petty video.

Neither of us had any trouble with buffering or dropped signals. Both of
us had uninterupted streams.

I launched Task Manager on my laptop, and clicked on the Performance tab.
The performance tab showed that the Wi-Fi strength was strong, and
receiving speeds were no greater than 40 Kbps. I don't know what the
receiving speeds were on the agent's Apple laptop.

Why did my Task Manger show only 40 Kbps (and all was working just fine),
when ATT provides 18 Mbps, and all that I've read says one needs at least
50 Mbps to stream?

Thanks.

Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> This is sort of an outgrowth of a question I posted on alt.online-
> service.comcast, 7/19/2023. My question now relates more to Windows 10.
>
> A friend is considering purchasing a home in Camino, California.  That's
> about 10 miles from Placerville.  Because this will be an AirBnB home,
> internet and TV are very important. 
> The current resident (seller) has ATT internet (copper cable) and ATT
> DirecTV (satellite).  So, TV will suffice.
>
> About internet, I called ATT to see what internet speeds are available at
> this home, and I was told there's only one plan, which provides 'up to 18
> Mbps' and that's when connected to the gateway. 

In the UK providers have to tell you what the minimum guaranteed speed is.
"upto" speeds are meaningless. Not sure if the US has the same requirement.

> He worries that speeds may
> be extremely slow, and especially slow when connected via WiFi,

If you get a decent router and the house isn't too big the wifi shouldn't
be a problem.

> rather than
> directly to the gateway (ethernet).  He wonders if 18 Mbps will be enough
> for streaming, as many do these days, not caring for cable.

It's perfectly fine for HD streaming which is what most content is.

> I was able to check on the wifi speeds, but don't understand what I
> recorded. Here's what happened.
>
> I and the buyer's agent arrived at the seller's home. The seller had
> given both of us his password so we could both connect simultaneously and
> see if the 18 Mbps ATT speed was enough for streaming both of us at the
> same time. The agent has an Apple laptop and wireless streamed a Netflix
> child's cartoon to her laptop.
>
> With my Windows 10 Home laptop, I connected to youtube.com and streamed a
> Tom Petty video.
>
> Neither of us had any trouble with buffering or dropped signals. Both of
> us had uninterupted streams.
>
> I launched Task Manager on my laptop, and clicked on the Performance tab.
> The performance tab showed that the Wi-Fi strength was strong, and
> receiving speeds were no greater than 40 Kbps. I don't know what the
> receiving speeds were on the agent's Apple laptop.
>
> Why did my Task Manger show only 40 Kbps (and all was working just fine),

Because it only shows instantaneous speeds and streaming often doesn't
saturate the bandwidth.

You need to use a proper online test like speedtest.net and run it directly
connected to the router if you can. However, your test does show that
streaming is possible.

> when ATT provides 18 Mbps, and all that I've read says one needs at least
> 50 Mbps to stream?

That's incorrect.

On 7/26/2023 12:28 AM, Boris wrote:
> This is sort of an outgrowth of a question I posted on alt.online-
> service.comcast, 7/19/2023. My question now relates more to Windows 10.
>
> A friend is considering purchasing a home in Camino, California.  That's
> about 10 miles from Placerville.  Because this will be an AirBnB home,
> internet and TV are very important. 
> The current resident (seller) has ATT internet (copper cable) and ATT
> DirecTV (satellite).  So, TV will suffice.
>
> About internet, I called ATT to see what internet speeds are available at
> this home, and I was told there's only one plan, which provides 'up to 18
> Mbps' and that's when connected to the gateway.  He worries that speeds may
> be extremely slow, and especially slow when connected via WiFi, rather than
> directly to the gateway (ethernet).  He wonders if 18 Mbps will be enough
> for streaming, as many do these days, not caring for cable.
>
> I was able to check on the wifi speeds, but don't understand what I
> recorded. Here's what happened.
>
> I and the buyer's agent arrived at the seller's home. The seller had
> given both of us his password so we could both connect simultaneously and
> see if the 18 Mbps ATT speed was enough for streaming both of us at the
> same time. The agent has an Apple laptop and wireless streamed a Netflix
> child's cartoon to her laptop.
>
> With my Windows 10 Home laptop, I connected to youtube.com and streamed a
> Tom Petty video.
>
> Neither of us had any trouble with buffering or dropped signals. Both of
> us had uninterupted streams.
>
> I launched Task Manager on my laptop, and clicked on the Performance tab.
> The performance tab showed that the Wi-Fi strength was strong, and
> receiving speeds were no greater than 40 Kbps. I don't know what the
> receiving speeds were on the agent's Apple laptop.
>
> Why did my Task Manger show only 40 Kbps (and all was working just fine),
> when ATT provides 18 Mbps, and all that I've read says one needs at least
> 50 Mbps to stream?
>
> Thanks.
>

Buying houses based on the predictability of ATT service is
taking a big risk.

Questions you'd ask:

1) Is VDSL2 available as a replacement for ADSL2 ? (the answer should be "right now")

15/1 ADSL2 # These entries, meant to indicate a continuum of service offerings.
15/10 VDSL
100/10 VDSL
150/? VDSL2 (rental modem)
300/? VDSL2 (rental modem)

2) When the copper plant is non-functional due to the lack of
telecom maintenance, will the fiber network be
deployed to this neighborhood at that time ?

You want to make sure there is a continuity plan.

Trenching or mole-ing fiber, costs money, money only recoverable
when the customers are at a certain density.

I have ADSL2 here, same speed as yours (based on 500 feet of copper
to the corner box). If gives 15Mbit/sec as the tariffed goodput.
And unlike first generation "best effort" jokey ADSL, it
actually works. One of the reasons, is all the lines have been sorted
according to performance. The best lines are reserved for incumbent VDSL2
(35MHz RF carrier). Next best lines for my reseller ADSL2. Next best
lines for incumbent ADSL2. Lines poorer than that, for remaining POTS (if any).
They set up a portable table and a beach umbrella, and for three days, did nothing
but buzz out lines in the frequency domain. Each cable pair has its own
performance chart (stored somewhere).

They even came one day, and "stole" my line, and replaced it with a
poorer one, as by some mistake, I'd gotten a better one than I "deserved" :-)

*******

Services such as speedtest.net , can be used to make on-demand bandwidth
measurements. Up/down. If there was a substandard router in the path
of an expensive fiber optic broadband plan, the rates may reflect the
crusty nature of the router. My router, in fact, cannot take anything
higher than my current (so-called) broadband service. Most routers
can handle 15/1 without fainting.

speedtest.net , can use a server located at the ISP, and thus, it
measures the last mile. It does not test the transit bandwidth
between ISPs or that sort of thing. Even Netflix, can have a server
located at the ISP central office, as a means to improve performance.
Even though the Netflix bandwidth is capped.

In one sense, this makes Netflix its own worst enemy, as it may be
subject to traffic management, and a test of Netflix, could at one
moment be a best case, then in the next moment a worst case (buffering,
because the cap is too low at the moment). There's no way for end users
to know what the hell is going on. Whereas speedtest.net is more of
a best case. If speedtest.net indicates enough bandwidth for Netflix,
that does not mean the ISP "just gives you the bandwidth" for Netflix.
It is when you actually try Netflix, you discover what "tissue of lies"
is involved -- there's no way for end users to really know how
they're getting shafted. Even the Netflix server box in the ISP rack,
has engineering limits.

Paul

On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 04:28:10 -0000 (UTC), Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Neither of us had any trouble with buffering or dropped signals. Both of
>us had uninterupted streams.
>
>I launched Task Manager on my laptop, and clicked on the Performance tab.
>The performance tab showed that the Wi-Fi strength was strong, and
>receiving speeds were no greater than 40 Kbps. I don't know what the
>receiving speeds were on the agent's Apple laptop.
>
>Why did my Task Manger show only 40 Kbps (and all was working just fine),

If you watch a bandwidth throughput app while you're streaming, you'll typically
see blips of high bandwidth usage, then almost nothing for a period of time,
followed by another blip, and so on. Commonly, streaming works as sort of a
sliding window, where when the window slides, you get all of the data for that
window, then the network goes quiet until the next time the window slides.

>when ATT provides 18 Mbps, and all that I've read says one needs at least
>50 Mbps to stream?

There are strong marketing reasons for claiming you need 50 Mbps to stream. In
one scenario, Mom has had a hard day and she's ready to take her glass of wine
and her iPad to the bathtub where she'll stream her favorite rom-com. Meanwhile,
Dad is already streaming his favorite action thriller in the living room while
their teen daughter is doing a live video show for her friends and subscribers
and both teen sons are (separately) streaming pron from the 'Hub. Suddenly, to
keep Mom happy, you need 50 Mbps to stream.

On 7/26/2023 12:42 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 04:28:10 -0000 (UTC), Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Neither of us had any trouble with buffering or dropped signals. Both of
>> us had uninterupted streams.
>>
>> I launched Task Manager on my laptop, and clicked on the Performance tab.
>> The performance tab showed that the Wi-Fi strength was strong, and
>> receiving speeds were no greater than 40 Kbps. I don't know what the
>> receiving speeds were on the agent's Apple laptop.
>>
>> Why did my Task Manger show only 40 Kbps (and all was working just fine),
>
> If you watch a bandwidth throughput app while you're streaming, you'll typically
> see blips of high bandwidth usage, then almost nothing for a period of time,
> followed by another blip, and so on. Commonly, streaming works as sort of a
> sliding window, where when the window slides, you get all of the data for that
> window, then the network goes quiet until the next time the window slides.
>
>> when ATT provides 18 Mbps, and all that I've read says one needs at least
>> 50 Mbps to stream?
>
> There are strong marketing reasons for claiming you need 50 Mbps to stream. In
> one scenario, Mom has had a hard day and she's ready to take her glass of wine
> and her iPad to the bathtub where she'll stream her favorite rom-com. Meanwhile,
> Dad is already streaming his favorite action thriller in the living room while
> their teen daughter is doing a live video show for her friends and subscribers
> and both teen sons are (separately) streaming pron from the 'Hub. Suddenly, to
> keep Mom happy, you need 50 Mbps to stream.
>

But part of it though, is having enough broadband, so if some
"support munchkin" says "oh, you need a faster service sir", you
can show the individual that the service you pay for is not slow,
and eliminate that excuse right away.

Netflix traffic management, the support people will of course
deny they do anything to Netflix. And my guess would be, a major
part of their engineering goes into messing with Netflix for
fun and profit. It's funny for example, how much resistance
there is on broadband, to a 4K video running. It's eerie.
You could have 1.5Gbit/sec fiber and have trouble.

"The minimum required speed for streaming Netflix is 3 Mbps for SD (standard definition) video quality.
Netflix recommends at least 5 Mbps for HD quality and 15 Mbps for Ultra HD or 4K quality.[1]

SD (480p) 3 Mbps
HD (720p) 5 Mbps
Ultra HD/4K (2160p) 15 Mbps
"

Paul