Anyone doing this? I got the free Win11 update so
that I can test my software. I've always used BootIt
for easy multibooting, but I'm not really familiar with
BCD. With XP I just had to make sure boot.ini was
pointing to the right partition and BootIt would figure
out the rest.

At this point I got Win11 booting OK by taking out BootIt,
but it doesn't seem to see the Win10 disk image that
I put back (next to the Win11 partition) after the update.

On 9/1/2023 9:02 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
> Anyone doing this? I got the free Win11 update so
> that I can test my software. I've always used BootIt
> for easy multibooting, but I'm not really familiar with
> BCD. With XP I just had to make sure boot.ini was
> pointing to the right partition and BootIt would figure
> out the rest.
>
> At this point I got Win11 booting OK by taking out BootIt,
> but it doesn't seem to see the Win10 disk image that
> I put back (next to the Win11 partition) after the update.

I have exactly that. For convenience in looking at W10/W11 issues,
my daily driver boot disk has W11HOME and W10Pro .

I may have had to use this at some point. It seemed to work
better in the past. The boot menu now, needs the occasional
fixup.

bcdboot c:\Windows

bcdboot e:\Windows

If the BCD file (for boot menu -- a registry file inside)
only has the one boot entry, you can use a command like
that to add the second OS. So if E: was missing, you could
use the second command to add E: to the menu.

bcdedit # Dump current file, see one boot entry is present.
# This prints a text summary on the screen, not the binary inside.
# If you just install W11, then the menu probably has W11 and the
# W10 entry has gone missing.

bcdboot e:\Windows # Add second OS (missing in action after second install)
# While the second OS install is supposed to pick up both OSes when
# it builds a menu, more often than not, it screws up.

bcdedit # Verify to your satisfaction, that there are two boot entries.

The "regular" menu, uses the big square icons for the OS selection. You
will see this for the first time, when the two OSes need a choice-point for selection.

If you do this, it puts a WinXP era "text on black screen" boot menu.
You can do this any time, like right now.

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True

Now, while you might laugh at the concept of a text boot screen, consider this.

The tile-based boot menu, will do a "double-reboot" if you select the non-default OS.
This is *very* annoying. The text boot screen, does not do that. Whether you select
the W10 OS or the W11 OS, it only executes the boot sequence the one time.

This assumes minimal cleverness on your part. If you are using "fast start" or
if you're using BitLocker encryption, what the Tile Menu is doing, is
probably a correct technical approach. However, in uncomplicated startup
situations, it does not have the conditional logic to "not do stupid stuff".
Which annoys me to no end. That is why my DisplayBootMenu is True.

*******

bcdboot has one other option, but this may be applicable in cases where
you're using MSDOS partitioning, instead of GPT partitioning.

bcdboot c:\Windows /s C:

What that does, is copy some boot files to the C: drive.

On a GPT partitioned disk, the first partition is EFI System Partition
or ESP, and it would be the location of the boot files. And it does not
have a drive letter. Consequently, on a GPT disk, I just use this

bcdboot c:\Windows

for want of a better solution.

This is my GPT-partitioned boot drive on this machine.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/x14RdRn0/dual-boot-daily-driver.gif

*******

On your Win10 partition, use this to lock the partition to

W10 22H2

so the W11 upgrade won't come in.

https://www.grc.com/incontrol.htm

You can boot W11 install media (from the popup boot menu in the BIOS),
in a matching mode to your current setup (UEFI boot for a GPT install),
and install W11 next to W10 like in my disk layout in the picture.
When doing the install, select "Custom" so you have control
of the layout and make an OS size you like. The "disk shrink"
can only shrink a partition in Disk Management, to 50%,
so if you didn't use "Custom" and just let the automation
do it, the new OS partition might be too large to easily shrink later.

*******

Do a full disk backup with Macrium, before starting this sequence.
If you're new to Dual Booting, you should always drive with the
training wheels on. It may take more than one attempt to get
things exactly as you want them. A restore from a Macrium backup
is a lot better than other options (like waiting for a failed
install to "unroll").

My setup, is a clone from a smaller drive to a larger drive, which
is why it has all that space on the end. With my setups, you never know
how many manipulations and experiments they've been through :-)
And occasionally I've lost an entire drive to an experiment -- that
is why I'm telling you about backups. Experience.

Paul

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| I may have had to use this at some point. It seemed to work
| better in the past. The boot menu now, needs the occasional
| fixup.
| | bcdboot c:\Windows
| | bcdboot e:\Windows
|

Thanks. I don't understand where you get those drive letters.
My only experience with BCDEdit so far has been a bootit
version that give me a UI. It shows Win11, but the location
is given as the partition I named "Win11". What I have is
System, the small second partition, invisible Win10, then
Win11. Bootit's tool allows me to add to the boot listing but
it doesn't seem to offer and option to add an OS and the
entries it does allow are mostly code words that I haven't
figured out.

So how did you arrive at c and e for your bootable partitions?

On 9/1/2023 4:43 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
>
> | I may have had to use this at some point. It seemed to work
> | better in the past. The boot menu now, needs the occasional
> | fixup.
> |
> | bcdboot c:\Windows
> |
> | bcdboot e:\Windows
> |
>
> Thanks. I don't understand where you get those drive letters.
> My only experience with BCDEdit so far has been a bootit
> version that give me a UI. It shows Win11, but the location
> is given as the partition I named "Win11". What I have is
> System, the small second partition, invisible Win10, then
> Win11. Bootit's tool allows me to add to the boot listing but
> it doesn't seem to offer and option to add an OS and the
> entries it does allow are mostly code words that I haven't
> figured out.
>
> So how did you arrive at c and e for your bootable partitions?

Look in Disk Management, at the letters, for inspiration.

Mine are actually C: and H: in the example picture provided.

Compare my disk layout in the picture, to the BCD output also in the picture.
You can see how the BCD happens to have used drive letters as identifiers.

I probably assigned H: at some point, to keep clear of some other
connected disk.

I don't normally have a DVD drive, as my DVD is a USB setup and switched
off when not needed.

Yours could be C: and E:, if you have a DVD drive perhaps.

*******

I changed out my power supply (because the other one was reading 11.6V)
and my power from the wall dropped 14W, and that's the efficiency
improvement of the newer one. You don't get a free lunch like
that every day.

Paul

| > "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| >
| > So how did you arrive at c and e for your bootable partitions?
| | Look in Disk Management, at the letters, for inspiration.
| | Mine are actually C: and H: in the example picture provided.
|

Ah. I see. I wwas expecting partitions numbered based
on disk layout. Thanks. I'll try that.

On 01/09/2023 14:02, Newyana2 wrote:
> Anyone doing this? I got the free Win11 update so
> that I can test my software. I've always used BootIt
> for easy multibooting, but I'm not really familiar with
> BCD. With XP I just had to make sure boot.ini was
> pointing to the right partition and BootIt would figure
> out the rest.
>
> At this point I got Win11 booting OK by taking out BootIt,
> but it doesn't seem to see the Win10 disk image that
> I put back (next to the Win11 partition) after the update.
>
>
Yep.
Windows 8.1 on an NVMe M.2 drive & Windows 10 & Windows 11 on another,
partitioned, NVMe M.2 drive.
Boot is controlled by EasyBCD
- https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/

--
Regards
wasbit

"wasbit" <wasbit@nowhere.invalid> wrote

| Windows 8.1 on an NVMe M.2 drive & Windows 10 & Windows 11 on another,
| partitioned, NVMe M.2 drive.
| Boot is controlled by EasyBCD
| - https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
|

Thanks. I just downloaded that. Hopefully it will work. So
much more complicated than boot.ini. Apparently with its
own curly bracket language. And the hardware...
NVMe and M.2 are the same thing? I seem to have an
M.2 card but wasn't clear what it does. And I know
the drive is NVMe. I thought the M.2
was a kind of connector component. So M.2 is the actual
connection and NVMe connects to that? My Asus manual
shows how to replace the M.2 card and how to replace
the SATA SSD. But it didn't tell me what the M.2 card was!

In reality I have the M.2 and no SATA
SSD. There's a spot for SATA, but it requires a custom FFC
adapter cable that's SATA on one end and a tiny 10-pin
connector on the other. It seems Asus doesn't want me
adding a second drive. I've been doing backups by
connecting an SATA-USB gadget with an SATA SSD
plugged into it.

On 9/2/2023 7:41 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
> "wasbit" <wasbit@nowhere.invalid> wrote
>
> | Windows 8.1 on an NVMe M.2 drive & Windows 10 & Windows 11 on another,
> | partitioned, NVMe M.2 drive.
> | Boot is controlled by EasyBCD
> | - https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
> |
>
> Thanks. I just downloaded that. Hopefully it will work. So
> much more complicated than boot.ini. Apparently with its
> own curly bracket language. And the hardware...
> NVMe and M.2 are the same thing? I seem to have an
> M.2 card but wasn't clear what it does. And I know
> the drive is NVMe. I thought the M.2
> was a kind of connector component. So M.2 is the actual
> connection and NVMe connects to that? My Asus manual
> shows how to replace the M.2 card and how to replace
> the SATA SSD. But it didn't tell me what the M.2 card was!
>
> In reality I have the M.2 and no SATA
> SSD. There's a spot for SATA, but it requires a custom FFC
> adapter cable that's SATA on one end and a tiny 10-pin
> connector on the other. It seems Asus doesn't want me
> adding a second drive. I've been doing backups by
> connecting an SATA-USB gadget with an SATA SSD
> plugged into it.
>

There's some examples here. Two slots on the SATA M.2, one slot
on the NVMe (PCi Express) M.2 .

https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/two-types-m2-vs-ssd

And M.2 connector size, is also capable of being used for Wifi modules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2

it is just a delightfully annoying interface.

https://superuser.com/questions/1303299/can-you-connect-an-m-2-sata-to-an-m-2-nvme-port

Paul

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| There's some examples here. Two slots on the SATA M.2, one slot
| on the NVMe (PCi Express) M.2 .
| | https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/two-types-m2-vs-ssd
| | And M.2 connector size, is also capable of being used for Wifi modules.

So I have an M.2 SSD. Goodness knows where they put
the RAM. My expertise pretty much stops at those cutting
edge SATA cables coming off a PC motherboard. It seems
only yesterday that I was replacing IDE and feeling like I
was stepping into the future.

It looks like I could buy an adapter cable to add a normal
SSD to my Asus K712E. I'd like to ask your opinion on that.
Would the power supply be able to handle it? (I don't care
about battery time. I usually plug it in.) Or is the SATA
SSD "bay" just left over when they switched to NVMe?
I came with an empty tray for a 2.5" SSD and with no cable,
but it looks like I could buy a cable:

https://www.amazon.com/Deal4GO-10-pin-04022-00060100-Replacement-X515DA/dp/B09R4TB7WL

|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2
| | it is just a delightfully annoying interface.
| |
https://superuser.com/questions/1303299/can-you-connect-an-m-2-sata-to-an-m-2-nvme-port
| | Paul
|

Newyana2 wrote:
> "wasbit" <wasbit@nowhere.invalid> wrote
>
> | Windows 8.1 on an NVMe M.2 drive & Windows 10 & Windows 11 on another,
> | partitioned, NVMe M.2 drive.
> | Boot is controlled by EasyBCD
> | - https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
> |
>
> Thanks. I just downloaded that. Hopefully it will work. So
> much more complicated than boot.ini. Apparently with its
> own curly bracket language. And the hardware...
> NVMe and M.2 are the same thing? I seem to have an
> M.2 card but wasn't clear what it does. And I know
> the drive is NVMe. I thought the M.2
> was a kind of connector component. So M.2 is the actual
> connection and NVMe connects to that? My Asus manual
> shows how to replace the M.2 card and how to replace
> the SATA SSD. But it didn't tell me what the M.2 card was!
>
> In reality I have the M.2 and no SATA
> SSD. There's a spot for SATA, but it requires a custom FFC
> adapter cable that's SATA on one end and a tiny 10-pin
> connector on the other. It seems Asus doesn't want me
> adding a second drive. I've been doing backups by
> connecting an SATA-USB gadget with an SATA SSD
> plugged into it.
>
>
EasyBCD should work since it can overcome the expected dual boot
sequence that Windows prefers - install the new o/s after an earlier
released os(to a different partition, drive)

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

"wasbit" <wasbit@nowhere.invalid> wrote

| Boot is controlled by EasyBCD
| - https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
|

I got EasyBCD. Piece of cake. Yet MS only offers
a cryptic, tedious command line. And their boot
screen is so ugly, it looks like a DOS error screen.
I might re-install BootIt now just so that I can
have a nice boot screen. (It's also handy for disk
image backups.)

"...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote

| EasyBCD should work since it can overcome the expected dual boot
| sequence that Windows prefers - install the new o/s after an earlier
| released os(to a different partition, drive)
|

I got it working. I just didn't know how to get the
2nd OS partition recognized. Which seems odd. In older
Windows versions, the Windows booter would take
over and offer to boot any supported Windows version
on disk.

On 9/2/2023 10:36 AM, Newyana2 wrote:

> So I have an M.2 SSD. Goodness knows where they put
> the RAM. My expertise pretty much stops at those cutting
> edge SATA cables coming off a PC motherboard. It seems
> only yesterday that I was replacing IDE and feeling like I
> was stepping into the future.
>
> It looks like I could buy an adapter cable to add a normal
> SSD to my Asus K712E. I'd like to ask your opinion on that.
> Would the power supply be able to handle it? (I don't care
> about battery time. I usually plug it in.) Or is the SATA
> SSD "bay" just left over when they switched to NVMe?
> I came with an empty tray for a 2.5" SSD and with no cable,
> but it looks like I could buy a cable:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Deal4GO-10-pin-04022-00060100-Replacement-X515DA/dp/B09R4TB7WL

Like you, I would have to research this.

You would think such a cable would be the same on all computers,
but apparently there is at least an "A" and "B" version of cable.

And we know why this cable isn't standardized, because this
is "sataio.org" we're talking about. Look at the mess they
allowed for ESATA.

OK, so what does the drive really need. Minimum pins.
But if you look at my diagram on the right, SATA usually has
crosstalk-guard GND connections around the high speed diff pairs.
On "real" SATA cables, the crosstalk wires are used as "drain wires" for
the axial wiring.

Minimum Actually needed (tenth pin could be PRESENCE- pin)

GND <=== fortuitous choice for ribbon cable assembly purposes
TX+ TX+
TX- TX-
RX+ GND <=== fortuitous choice for ribbon cable assembly purposes
RX- RX+
+5V RX-
GND GND <=== fortuitous choice for ribbon cable assembly purposes

+5V
GND

*******

The SSD would need +5V. Around 2.5 watts is a stab at an
average "active" power. But there can be transients,
which can sometimes be covered by the bypass capacitor.

A Kingston with a SandForce controller, could be 7.5W peak,
just to put a bound on it. If I was the manufacturer and I
placed a 2.5" sled in the machine, I would budget 1.5 amps
from the +5V for it. Continuous operation at a level like
that, would result in excess temperature and throttling
until it cooled off. But percentage wise, not much of the
market is served by SandForce controllers in SSDs, and there are
other brands which are just as popular. SandForce, was the
controller maker that included "wire speed compression".
That's where the electricity goes, into compression.

Your machine has USB ports, and that would be about 5V @ 2A load
there. There is a reason to be installing a +5V switcher
that runs off the battery.

One other Vivobook, you remove all the screws holding the
bottom plate on, then use a spudger to pry up the bottom
metal cover. Then the upgrade area can be seen, and you
can look to see if the motherboard has the 10-pin SATA ribbon
cable connector or not. I can't even guess why the stupid
cable (and adapter plate for the 7+15 connector) needs an
"A" and "B" version. This should be so simple.

Paul

On 9/2/2023 2:22 PM, Paul wrote:
> On 9/2/2023 10:36 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
>
>> So I have an M.2 SSD. Goodness knows where they put
>> the RAM. My expertise pretty much stops at those cutting
>> edge SATA cables coming off a PC motherboard. It seems
>> only yesterday that I was replacing IDE and feeling like I
>> was stepping into the future.
>>
>> It looks like I could buy an adapter cable to add a normal
>> SSD to my Asus K712E. I'd like to ask your opinion on that.
>> Would the power supply be able to handle it? (I don't care
>> about battery time. I usually plug it in.) Or is the SATA
>> SSD "bay" just left over when they switched to NVMe?
>> I came with an empty tray for a 2.5" SSD and with no cable,
>> but it looks like I could buy a cable:
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Deal4GO-10-pin-04022-00060100-Replacement-X515DA/dp/B09R4TB7WL
>
> (forgot the approximate picture)

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/QthZN0CH/guess-as-to-assembly.gif

Paul

On 9/2/2023 12:31 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> "wasbit" <wasbit@nowhere.invalid> wrote
>
> | Boot is controlled by EasyBCD
> | - https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
> |
>
> I got EasyBCD. Piece of cake. Yet MS only offers
> a cryptic, tedious command line. And their boot
> screen is so ugly, it looks like a DOS error screen.
> I might re-install BootIt now just so that I can
> have a nice boot screen. (It's also handy for disk
> image backups.)

You have choices.

A screen with tiles to click for an OS.

A screen with black background and text on it (like from WinXP days).

Those are your choices.

Your bcdedit text output, might be able to tell
us what you can see on the screen right now.

Paul

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On 9/2/2023 12:31 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> > "wasbit" <wasbit@nowhere.invalid> wrote
> >
> > | Boot is controlled by EasyBCD
> > | - https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
> > |
> >
> > I got EasyBCD. Piece of cake. Yet MS only offers
> > a cryptic, tedious command line. And their boot
> > screen is so ugly, it looks like a DOS error screen.
> > I might re-install BootIt now just so that I can
> > have a nice boot screen. (It's also handy for disk
> > image backups.)
>
> You have choices.
>
> A screen with tiles to click for an OS.

Yes, that's what Macrium Reflect uses when you tell it to Add/change
the Windows boot menu.

But it's indeed using *tiles*, so I doubt it will meet Newyana2's
approval! :-)

> A screen with black background and text on it (like from WinXP days).
>
> Those are your choices.
>
> Your bcdedit text output, might be able to tell
> us what you can see on the screen right now.

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| https://i.postimg.cc/QthZN0CH/guess-as-to-assembly.gif
|

Thanks. So it shouldn't be a problem to hook up the SSD.
The picture you found looks about right. The technician is working
on the NVMe/M.2 drive. To the right -- all the open
green space -- seems to be optional RAM expansion. That's
what the manual shows. But the basic RAM seems to be elsewhere.
The tray is as you indicated. The connector you sqquared
red is the power connector to the battery. The 10-pin SATA
connector is just below the screwdriver, to the right. There
are two small white things. The one on the left has wires
going into it. The one on the right is the SATA connector.

Mine is different in one major respect, though. Bottom right
is completely filled, I assume it's all battery. It looks like they've
taken out the battery and power connector cable.

On 9/2/2023 4:04 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
>
> | https://i.postimg.cc/QthZN0CH/guess-as-to-assembly.gif
> |
>
> Thanks. So it shouldn't be a problem to hook up the SSD.
> The picture you found looks about right. The technician is working
> on the NVMe/M.2 drive. To the right -- all the open
> green space -- seems to be optional RAM expansion. That's
> what the manual shows. But the basic RAM seems to be elsewhere.
> The tray is as you indicated. The connector you sqquared
> red is the power connector to the battery. The 10-pin SATA
> connector is just below the screwdriver, to the right. There
> are two small white things. The one on the left has wires
> going into it. The one on the right is the SATA connector.
>
> Mine is different in one major respect, though. Bottom right
> is completely filled, I assume it's all battery. It looks like they've
> taken out the battery and power connector cable.

So if that connector and cable are a "new standard", is the
cable always the same length ? Maybe that is the meaning of
an "A" versus "B" version, instead of pinout, it's just cable length.

Paul

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| So if that connector and cable are a "new standard", is the
| cable always the same length ? Maybe that is the meaning of
| an "A" versus "B" version, instead of pinout, it's just cable length.
|

I don't know. I didn't see anything about A vs B. I found
one that says it works with several Asus versions, though
it doesn't mention the 712. Only the 4** and 5**. That was
the only one mentioning Asus.

I got everything working and then re-installed BootIt.
I can't seem to get that working. It should set the relevant
partition active and then load winload.efi, but it doesn't
seem to work that way. With the Win10 menu it works to
load the Windows boot manager with the path set to
EFI...bootmgfw.efi. Nothing else works. Yet I'm speccing in
BootIt boot manager which partition and EFI file it should
manage. BootIt seems to be unable to get out of the SYSTEM
partition. Not a big deal, but I don't get what the problem
might be. It's a special version of BootIt for UEFI.

On 9/2/2023 4:59 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
>
> | So if that connector and cable are a "new standard", is the
> | cable always the same length ? Maybe that is the meaning of
> | an "A" versus "B" version, instead of pinout, it's just cable length.
> |
>
> I don't know. I didn't see anything about A vs B. I found
> one that says it works with several Asus versions, though
> it doesn't mention the 712. Only the 4** and 5**. That was
> the only one mentioning Asus.
>
> I got everything working and then re-installed BootIt.
> I can't seem to get that working. It should set the relevant
> partition active and then load winload.efi, but it doesn't
> seem to work that way. With the Win10 menu it works to
> load the Windows boot manager with the path set to
> EFI...bootmgfw.efi. Nothing else works. Yet I'm speccing in
> BootIt boot manager which partition and EFI file it should
> manage. BootIt seems to be unable to get out of the SYSTEM
> partition. Not a big deal, but I don't get what the problem
> might be. It's a special version of BootIt for UEFI.

The manual for that (bootituefi user manual), says Secure Boot is supported, so
they did seem to think of that aspect.

https://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads/bootituefi_en_manual.pdf

Paul

Newyana2 wrote:
> "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote
>
> | EasyBCD should work since it can overcome the expected dual boot
> | sequence that Windows prefers - install the new o/s after an earlier
> | released os(to a different partition, drive)
> |
>
> I got it working. I just didn't know how to get the
> 2nd OS partition recognized. Which seems odd. In older
> Windows versions, the Windows booter would take
> over and offer to boot any supported Windows version
> on disk.
>
>
In older versions, Windows expected the newer os to be installed after
and earlier o/s -allowing Windows to update the boot manager/loader with
the correct references.
- In UEFI, one can only boot from the Windows Boot Manager, booting is
still performed by the boot volume.
In UEFI/GPT
System Volume(EFI)
MSR(Reserved)
Primary(Boot Volume) (the Boot Volume is the drive the o/s is installed)
Windows Recovery

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

"...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote

| In older versions, Windows expected the newer os to be installed after
| and earlier o/s -allowing Windows to update the boot manager/loader with
| the correct references.
| - In UEFI, one can only boot from the Windows Boot Manager, booting is
| still performed by the boot volume.
| In UEFI/GPT
| System Volume(EFI)
| MSR(Reserved)
| Primary(Boot Volume) (the Boot Volume is the drive the o/s is installed)
| Windows Recovery
| Thanks. I'm afraid I was hasty, without reading directions. I didn't
even have the UEFI BootIt help file that Paul linked. I just
figured that BootIt would figure it out. I think I may just keep
the Windows boot menu and save BooIt for only doing disk image
backup and partitioning, which I don't need very often.