Though 22H2 is now the last version of Win10, it looks like a scare
tactic for making the switch to Win11. You have 30 more months of
updates coming.

philo <philo@privacy.net> wrote:

>Though 22H2 is now the last version of Win10, it looks like a scare
>tactic for making the switch to Win11. You have 30 more months of
>updates coming.

Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.

--
Joel Crump

On 5/1/2023 6:58 PM, Joel wrote:
> philo <philo@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> Though 22H2 is now the last version of Win10, it looks like a scare
>> tactic for making the switch to Win11. You have 30 more months of
>> updates coming.
>
>
> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>

What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?

On 5/2/23 00:38, this is what Bill wrote:
> On 5/1/2023 6:58 PM, Joel wrote:
>> philo <philo@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Though 22H2 is now the last version of Win10, it looks like a scare
>>> tactic for making the switch to Win11. You have 30 more months of
>>> updates coming.
>>
>>
>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>>
>
> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
Life after death? (of 10 that is)
--
Al

Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote in
news:Ls04M.399607$wfQc.320399@fx43.iad:

> On 5/1/2023 6:58 PM, Joel wrote:
>> philo <philo@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Though 22H2 is now the last version of Win10, it looks
>>> like a scare tactic for making the switch to Win11. You
>>> have 30 more months of updates coming.
>>
>>
>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>>
>
> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?

Rounded window corners instead of square.

There's not much more that can be done. I mean...other than security, the OS just hosts
the s/w we use daily to "do things".

I can type just as fast (and poorly) using Windows 3.0, as I can using Windows 10.

Web pages load just as fast on a Win7 OS, vs Win11 OS.

I can't make a selection box in a graphics app any faster in Win 11 than XP.

Etc...

Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>
>What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?

There are always under-the-hood tweaks in newer versions, presuming
one's hardware supports the newest.

--
Joel Crump

DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> wrote:
> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote in
> news:Ls04M.399607$wfQc.320399@fx43.iad:
>
> > On 5/1/2023 6:58 PM, Joel wrote:
> >> philo <philo@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Though 22H2 is now the last version of Win10, it looks
> >>> like a scare tactic for making the switch to Win11. You
> >>> have 30 more months of updates coming.
> >>
> >>
> >> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
> >>
> >
> > What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
>
> Rounded window corners instead of square.

And Windows without in-focus coloured title bars, so you can enjoy the
game of finding out which <bleep> window is the active one [1].

[1] Yep, there's a setting for that. No, it doesn't do what it says it
does. [2]

[2] But don't you worry, if you can find an old equivalent program for a
'new' non-working one, you can still can get coloured title bars. [3]

[3] But you can't when you do silly things like using Notepad, Settings,
Task Manager and other built-in Windows 11 stuff.

Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
> On 5/1/2023 6:58 PM, Joel wrote:
> > philo <philo@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Though 22H2 is now the last version of Win10, it looks like a scare
> >> tactic for making the switch to Win11. You have 30 more months of
> >> updates coming.
> >
> >
> > Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
> >
>
> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?

Continued Windows Update Hell!?

On 2 May 2023 18:41:53 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> wrote:
> > Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote in
> > news:Ls04M.399607$wfQc.320399@fx43.iad:
> > > What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
> >
> > Rounded window corners instead of square.
>
> And Windows without in-focus coloured title bars, so you can enjoy the
> game of finding out which <bleep> window is the active one [1].

That's incredibly annoying, I agree.
> [1] Yep, there's a setting for that. No, it doesn't do what it says it
> does. [2]

Thanks for saving me going looking for it, only to be disappointed.
> [2] But don't you worry, if you can find an old equivalent program for a
> 'new' non-working one, you can still can get coloured title bars. [3]

That 'new' non-working one would be Explorer, correct? Or is there
something else that manages Windows 11's desktop? (When I restart
Explorer, the desktop blinks, so Explorer must be at least part of
the picture.)
> [3] But you can't when you do silly things like using Notepad, Settings,
> Task Manager and other built-in Windows 11 stuff.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On 5/2/2023 9:03 AM, Joel wrote:
> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>
>>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>>
>> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
>
>
> There are always under-the-hood tweaks in newer versions, presuming
> one's hardware supports the newest.

You care enough about such things to upgrade?
I am increasingly of the mindset that manufacturers introduce
new models merely to stimulate us into thinking we need to "upgrade".

I revamp considerably the way the way MS seems to expect me to use the
operating system, and those factors have more to do with my productivity
than anything I intend to see in the next upgrade. Anything with
obfuscates the directories where my files are located I view as an
issue, unless I created the link myself. The fact that
file extensions are hidden by default if not a crime against humanity,
is at least a misdemeanor! ; ) Maybe they will provide us with a decent
"backup" program?

Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

>>>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>>>
>>> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
>>
>> There are always under-the-hood tweaks in newer versions, presuming
>> one's hardware supports the newest.
>
>You care enough about such things to upgrade?
>I am increasingly of the mindset that manufacturers introduce
>new models merely to stimulate us into thinking we need to "upgrade".
>
>I revamp considerably the way the way MS seems to expect me to use the
>operating system, and those factors have more to do with my productivity
>than anything I intend to see in the next upgrade. Anything with
>obfuscates the directories where my files are located I view as an
>issue, unless I created the link myself. The fact that
>file extensions are hidden by default if not a crime against humanity,
>is at least a misdemeanor! ; ) Maybe they will provide us with a decent
>"backup" program?

I don't think that the changes are difficult to get used to.

--
Joel Crump

On 5/3/2023 4:04 AM, Joel wrote:
> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>
>>>>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>>>>
>>>> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
>>>
>>> There are always under-the-hood tweaks in newer versions, presuming
>>> one's hardware supports the newest.
>>
>> You care enough about such things to upgrade?
>> I am increasingly of the mindset that manufacturers introduce
>> new models merely to stimulate us into thinking we need to "upgrade".
>>
>> I revamp considerably the way the way MS seems to expect me to use the
>> operating system, and those factors have more to do with my productivity
>> than anything I intend to see in the next upgrade. Anything with
>> obfuscates the directories where my files are located I view as an
>> issue, unless I created the link myself. The fact that
>> file extensions are hidden by default if not a crime against humanity,
>> is at least a misdemeanor! ; ) Maybe they will provide us with a decent
>> "backup" program?
>
>
> I don't think that the changes are difficult to get used to.

Maybe not, but you haven't made the point that it's worth the bother.

Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

>you haven't made the point that it's worth the bother [to upgrade Win10 to Win11].

Why wouldn't it be, though? Why wouldn't one want to have the most
recent version supported by their hardware?

--
Joel Crump

On 5/3/23 01:48, Joel wrote:
> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>
>> you haven't made the point that it's worth the bother [to upgrade Win10 to Win11].
>
>
> Why wouldn't it be, though? Why wouldn't one want to have the most
> recent version supported by their hardware?
>

Hi Joel and Bill,

One of the hassles I face doig my jobs
is dealing with the "I CAN'T LEARN ANYTHING
NEW" crowd. I do my best to accommodate, but
sometimes they back me up against a wall.

I do see Bill's point. I am all for newer
and better. I ADORE bug fix and maintenance
updates that do not add features.

But I am not for newer and not better. I do not
like being a beta tester for something that is touted
as general release. M$ uses its customers suchlike.

M$ seems to me to dump their OS'es after they get
them patched to a point of somewhat stability
and add features and improve what they
have (I really wanted a Super XP). Instead
they start over and drive their users nuts with
bugs. Vista for example. W11 and their network
print problems and awkward rip off of Chromebook's
UI too.

So build a better mousetrap, people will
come. Build a worse mousetrap, lie about
it with weasel/cockroach cross breeds
in your marketing department, no thank you.

As far as W11 goes, I'd wait a few years before
dumping W10. Let M$ come out of beta
testing and jump to release candidate. (They
never really go into a general release.)

Of course, by then when W11 settles down, M$ will
be trumpeting W12. Wonder whose UI they will
steal then.

-T

On Tue, 2 May 2023 22:50:14 -0400, Bill wrote:

> On 5/2/2023 9:03 AM, Joel wrote:
>> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>>>
>>> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
>>
>> There are always under-the-hood tweaks in newer versions, presuming
>> one's hardware supports the newest.
>
> You care enough about such things to upgrade?
> I am increasingly of the mindset that manufacturers introduce
> new models merely to stimulate us into thinking we need to "upgrade".

No doubt there is some of that going on, but generally MSFT have a
real story behind the drive to virtualisation of all customer
interactions. Many on here are checking their emails/whatever using
systems in virtualbox or similar. Windows11 changes are part of
that. Just be lucky that retail users don't have to use Kubernetes!

The hardware vendors are happy that there is real use for all these
3GBytes processor, 16GB memory systems, let alone the video displays
of Quad 4K resolution (or whatever it is they're selling this week).

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 5/3/23 01:48, Joel wrote:
>> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> you haven't made the point that it's worth the bother [to upgrade Win10 to Win11].
>>
>> Why wouldn't it be, though? Why wouldn't one want to have the most
>> recent version supported by their hardware?
>
>Hi Joel and Bill,
>
>One of the hassles I face doig my jobs
>is dealing with the "I CAN'T LEARN ANYTHING
>NEW" crowd. I do my best to accommodate, but
>sometimes they back me up against a wall.
>
>I do see Bill's point. I am all for newer
>and better. I ADORE bug fix and maintenance
>updates that do not add features.
>
>But I am not for newer and not better. I do not
>like being a beta tester for something that is touted
>as general release. M$ uses its customers suchlike.

Actually, that was why I switched to Linux, for two years, beginning
in early 2019. Win10 was just not in good shape, for a while. But
it, and now 11, got back in the game.

>M$ seems to me to dump their OS'es after they get
>them patched to a point of somewhat stability
>and add features and improve what they
>have (I really wanted a Super XP). Instead
>they start over and drive their users nuts with
>bugs. Vista for example. W11 and their network
>print problems and awkward rip off of Chromebook's
>UI too.
>
>So build a better mousetrap, people will
>come. Build a worse mousetrap, lie about
>it with weasel/cockroach cross breeds
>in your marketing department, no thank you.
>
>As far as W11 goes, I'd wait a few years before
>dumping W10. Let M$ come out of beta
>testing and jump to release candidate. (They
>never really go into a general release.)
>
>Of course, by then when W11 settles down, M$ will
>be trumpeting W12. Wonder whose UI they will
>steal then.

Win11 is already a very stable, up to date OS.

--
Joel Crump

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On 2 May 2023 18:41:53 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >
> > DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> wrote:
> > > Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote in
> > > news:Ls04M.399607$wfQc.320399@fx43.iad:
> > > > What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
> > >
> > > Rounded window corners instead of square.
> >
> > And Windows without in-focus coloured title bars, so you can enjoy the
> > game of finding out which <bleep> window is the active one [1].
>
> That's incredibly annoying, I agree.
>
> > [1] Yep, there's a setting for that. No, it doesn't do what it says it
> > does. [2]
>
> Thanks for saving me going looking for it, only to be disappointed.

Well, as mentioned under '[2]' it does work for 'old' (non-MS)
programs, for example for Chrome and Thunderbird (at least my old
version), but also for 'old' MS programs, for example for Control Panel
and a Command Prompt window (if set to Windows Console Host, not Windows
Terminal).

> > [2] But don't you worry, if you can find an old equivalent program for a
> > 'new' non-working one, you can still can get coloured title bars. [3]
>
> That 'new' non-working one would be Explorer, correct? Or is there
> something else that manages Windows 11's desktop? (When I restart
> Explorer, the desktop blinks, so Explorer must be at least part of
> the picture.)

Yes, File Explorer is one of them, but also Notepad, Settings and Task
Manager, which I mentioned below. Probably all the 'modernized' Windows
components are broken-by-design and any 'left over' 'old' stuff still
works like it should work.

> > [3] But you can't when you do silly things like using Notepad, Settings,
> > Task Manager and other built-in Windows 11 stuff.

Anyway, the setting is Settings > Personalisation > Colours -> Windows
coulors -> select the accent colour you want (I use 'Blue') -> Show
accent colour on title bars and windows border -> On

The "on title bars" bit works (for the 'old' stuff). The "[on] windows
borders" bit is a sick joke. See for yourself.

On 5/3/23 04:40, Joel wrote:
>> Of course, by then when W11 settles down, M$ will
>> be trumpeting W12. Wonder whose UI they will
>> steal then.
>
> Win11 is already a very stable, up to date OS.

It is because it really is W10 with a different UI.
M$ did not do a complete rewrite this time.

I still have customer's with W11 issues. Sometimes
W10 software won't work in W11 and the ubiquitous
printing issues. (I am sneaky and get around
a lot of the printing issues.)

And yes, some customers get really pissed at the
new and not improved UI's, which is understandable
to a point. (My big solution is Open Shell and
creating desktop icons for their favorite programs.)

If they let me do my optimizing, it seems to have
calmed down though. Open Shell goes along way to
get over the awkward chromebook UI. Network
printing is still a pain in the ass.

I have been on Linux and Fedora for years now.
Qemu-kvm is an excellent platform to
run Windows Virtual Machines (VM) on. I
currently have XP, W7, W10, and W11 in VM's.
I do my Windows programming in W11 to make sure
my programs will work with the rest.

Speaking of Fedora Linux, I have to ask the OS
was version it is on to tell. Fedora builds
on what they have and does not trash and start
over.

On Wed, 03 May 2023 04:48:23 -0400, Joel wrote:
> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
> >you haven't made the point that it's worth the bother [to upgrade Win10 to Win11].
>
> Why wouldn't it be, though? Why wouldn't one want to have the most
> recent version supported by their hardware?

Because the user interface is inferior, or simply not
to one's liking?

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>On Wed, 03 May 2023 04:48:23 -0400, Joel wrote:
>> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> >you haven't made the point that it's worth the bother [to upgrade Win10 to Win11].
>>
>> Why wouldn't it be, though? Why wouldn't one want to have the most
>> recent version supported by their hardware?
>
>Because the user interface is inferior, or simply not
>to one's liking?

Ah, yes, but then again, haven't we heard that over and over again,
every time there's a new version with a facelift? I've simply
embraced the changes to Win11, and gotten accustomed to them. It's
trivial to do. All the usual talk about how the latest version is a
beta test, or introduces unwanted changes, ends up being irrelevant,
because you can't just keep using Windows XP for a century.

--
Joel Crump

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> Win11 is already a very stable, up to date OS.
>
>It is because it really is W10 with a different UI.
>M$ did not do a complete rewrite this time.

Yeah, the rewrite was done within the reign of Win10 itself, the
difference between 1809, when I flushed it to run Linux for two years,
and 20H2, was night and day.

>I still have customer's with W11 issues. Sometimes
>W10 software won't work in W11 and the ubiquitous
>printing issues. (I am sneaky and get around
>a lot of the printing issues.)
>
>And yes, some customers get really pissed at the
>new and not improved UI's, which is understandable
>to a point. (My big solution is Open Shell and
>creating desktop icons for their favorite programs.)
>
>If they let me do my optimizing, it seems to have
>calmed down though. Open Shell goes along way to
>get over the awkward chromebook UI. Network
>printing is still a pain in the ass.
>
>I have been on Linux and Fedora for years now.
>Qemu-kvm is an excellent platform to
>run Windows Virtual Machines (VM) on. I
>currently have XP, W7, W10, and W11 in VM's.
>I do my Windows programming in W11 to make sure
>my programs will work with the rest.
>
>Speaking of Fedora Linux, I have to ask the OS
>was version it is on to tell. Fedora builds
>on what they have and does not trash and start
>over.

Any issues I've had with 11, compared to 10, were minor at most. I
did almost have buyer's remorse, on 10/4/21, after the initial
upgrade, but I still never looked back. I knew, from previous
experience, that even these "beta test" interim versions of Windows
are worth having.

--
Joel Crump

On Tue, 2 May 2023 22:50:14 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

>On 5/2/2023 9:03 AM, Joel wrote:
>> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>>>
>>> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
>>
>>
>> There are always under-the-hood tweaks in newer versions, presuming
>> one's hardware supports the newest.
>
>You care enough about such things to upgrade?
>I am increasingly of the mindset that manufacturers introduce
>new models merely to stimulate us into thinking we need to "upgrade".
>
>I revamp considerably the way the way MS seems to expect me to use the
>operating system, and those factors have more to do with my productivity
>than anything I intend to see in the next upgrade. Anything with
>obfuscates the directories where my files are located I view as an
>issue, unless I created the link myself. The fact that
>file extensions are hidden by default if not a crime against humanity,
>is at least a misdemeanor! ; )

I also don't like that, but it bothers me less than it does you. If
it's easy to change from a default, it's not terrible. What would
bother me much more would be not being to turn off that hiding.

>Maybe they will provide us with a decent
>"backup" program?

I have no problem with using a third-party backup program. In fact, In
my opinion, the less that's built into Windows, the better. If
something is built into Windows, that's what most people use. If a
function isn't built into Windows, many more people would look around
for and perhaps find the best alternative.

There is very little built into Windows that I use. For example, I
don't use Task Manager, Edge, Mail, Backup, Calc, Notepad, Wordpad,
Search, and probably a few others that don't quickly come to mind.

On Wed, 3 May 2023 04:42:17 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

>On 5/3/2023 4:04 AM, Joel wrote:
>> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>>>>>
>>>>> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
>>>>
>>>> There are always under-the-hood tweaks in newer versions, presuming
>>>> one's hardware supports the newest.
>>>
>>> You care enough about such things to upgrade?
>>> I am increasingly of the mindset that manufacturers introduce
>>> new models merely to stimulate us into thinking we need to "upgrade".
>>>
>>> I revamp considerably the way the way MS seems to expect me to use the
>>> operating system, and those factors have more to do with my productivity
>>> than anything I intend to see in the next upgrade. Anything with
>>> obfuscates the directories where my files are located I view as an
>>> issue, unless I created the link myself. The fact that
>>> file extensions are hidden by default if not a crime against humanity,
>>> is at least a misdemeanor! ; ) Maybe they will provide us with a decent
>>> "backup" program?
>>
>>
>> I don't think that the changes are difficult to get used to.
>
>Maybe not, but you haven't made the point that it's worth the bother.

Moreover, even if it's easy to get used to a change, that doesn't mean
we prefer the change over the way it used to be.

On Wed, 03 May 2023 09:46:46 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:

>Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>On Wed, 03 May 2023 04:48:23 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >you haven't made the point that it's worth the bother [to upgrade Win10 to Win11].
>>>
>>> Why wouldn't it be, though? Why wouldn't one want to have the most
>>> recent version supported by their hardware?
>>
>>Because the user interface is inferior, or simply not
>>to one's liking?
>
>
>Ah, yes, but then again, haven't we heard that over and over again,
>every time there's a new version with a facelift? I've simply
>embraced the changes to Win11, and gotten accustomed to them. It's
>trivial to do. All the usual talk about how the latest version is a
>beta test, or introduces unwanted changes, ends up being irrelevant,
>because you can't just keep using Windows XP for a century.

Alas, I can't use anything for a century.

On 5/3/23 07:14, Joel wrote:
> Any issues I've had with 11, compared to 10, were minor at most.

I mainly see problems when customers call
and complain.

I do spec out all new windows computers with
11 on it now. (I no longer will do custom
builds but will assist customers with ordering
a business grade computer from Lenovo.)

So far, as you stated, most issues are minor, I
am able to get folks up and running and happy.
So W11 is "good enough". Has some stupid hardware
requirements though. (I can work around those
too.)

Funny, since I am on Fedora, which is "almost
cutting edge", I do some times get burned with
new things. I was working on a network issue
and got told that if running Fedora, it is
presumed that I will "keep up" with changes.
I do get burned a lot fewer than with
Windows upgrades though. Such is life.

Speaking of that, I have a bug to report on
their new networking method. But with
Fedora, you have a place to report bugs and
if you are detailed with the report and respectful,
odds are they will get fixed. This is why Fedora
keeps getting better with time.

The next big change in Fedora is iptables to
nftables. I took a look at nftables and spaced.
Couldn't figure out day from night. So
I am staying with iptables for now, but know I need
to "keep up" at some point.