On 07/05/2023 07:48, ...winston wrote:
> T wrote:
>> On 5/6/23 10:24, ...winston wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So, you have no freaking idea what actually caused
>>>> the artifacts, yet you claim superior knowledge.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I've said before.
>>>
>>> Disabling Fast Start doesn't(and will never) fix artifacts on a
>>> display or spreadsheet.
>>
>> Bull Shit.   A corrupted OS can write crap to
>> video memory.  Oh the pretty crap that shows
>> on your screen when you do so.
>>
>> And Paul's explanations were well done as
>> probably causes.  Your's, on the other hand,
>> stated things as unequivocal fact, when you
>> have no freaking clue what the actual cause was.
>>
>> I do not either.  I just now what stopped it.
>>
>> Fanbio.
>
> Keep digging that hole.
> Fast Start being disabled won't fix artifacts or a corrupted o/s.
> I don't need to have a clue on the cause...but I do know that Fast Start
> disabling will never fix the effect.
>
> You, on the other hand...don't know what stopped it since it was never
> turned back on by any means.
>
> Your reasoning is akin to:
> There's brown spots in the toilet
> I turned off the heat(unrelated to the toilet or the spots), turned the
> electrical supply breaker off, then on.
> The brown spots disappeared.
>
You have been on about this for weeks - and are still wrong.

Implementing fast startup may mean a user runs Windows for months w/o
rebooting it.
Errors build up over time for some reason.
Turn off fast startup and Windows will reboot, clearing artefacts or a
corrupted o/s.

MikeS wrote:
> On 07/05/2023 07:48, ...winston wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>> On 5/6/23 10:24, ...winston wrote:
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, you have no freaking idea what actually caused
>>>>> the artifacts, yet you claim superior knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I've said before.
>>>>
>>>> Disabling Fast Start doesn't(and will never) fix artifacts on a
>>>> display or spreadsheet.
>>>
>>> Bull Shit.   A corrupted OS can write crap to
>>> video memory.  Oh the pretty crap that shows
>>> on your screen when you do so.
>>>
>>> And Paul's explanations were well done as
>>> probably causes.  Your's, on the other hand,
>>> stated things as unequivocal fact, when you
>>> have no freaking clue what the actual cause was.
>>>
>>> I do not either.  I just now what stopped it.
>>>
>>> Fanbio.
>>
>> Keep digging that hole.
>> Fast Start being disabled won't fix artifacts or a corrupted o/s.
>> I don't need to have a clue on the cause...but I do know that Fast
>> Start disabling will never fix the effect.
>>
>> You, on the other hand...don't know what stopped it since it was never
>> turned back on by any means.
>>
>> Your reasoning is akin to:
>> There's brown spots in the toilet
>> I turned off the heat(unrelated to the toilet or the spots), turned
>> the electrical supply breaker off, then on.
>> The brown spots disappeared.
>>
> You have been on about this for weeks - and are still wrong.
>
> Implementing fast startup may mean a user runs Windows for months w/o
> rebooting it.
> Errors build up over time for some reason.
> Turn off fast startup and Windows will reboot, clearing artefacts or a
> corrupted o/s.
>

Fast Startup when disabled does not clear artifacts(on display or
spreadsheet)
Even if Windows was run for months, Fast Start up enabled would not
cause artifacts, just like being disabled can't/doesn't resolve artifacts.

Look closely, I've never stated that rebooting would not fix artifacts,
only that Fast Startup cannot and will not ever be the cause of
artifacts...and anyone that states that disabling Fast Startup fixes a
graphical artifact issue is spreading false information and practicing
poor troubleshooting(turn something on/off/on) without validation.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

T wrote:
> On 5/6/23 23:48, ...winston wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>> On 5/6/23 10:24, ...winston wrote:
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, you have no freaking idea what actually caused
>>>>> the artifacts, yet you claim superior knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I've said before.
>>>>
>>>> Disabling Fast Start doesn't(and will never) fix artifacts on a
>>>> display or spreadsheet.
>>>
>>> Bull Shit.   A corrupted OS can write crap to
>>> video memory.  Oh the pretty crap that shows
>>> on your screen when you do so.
>>>
>>> And Paul's explanations were well done as
>>> probably causes.  Your's, on the other hand,
>>> stated things as unequivocal fact, when you
>>> have no freaking clue what the actual cause was.
>>>
>>> I do not either.  I just now what stopped it.
>>>
>>> Fanbio.
>>
>> Keep digging that hole.
>> Fast Start being disabled won't fix artifacts or a corrupted o/s.
>> I don't need to have a clue on the cause...but I do know that Fast
>> Start disabling will never fix the effect.
>>
>> You, on the other hand...don't know what stopped it since it was never
>> turned back on by any means.
>>
>> Your reasoning is akin to:
>> There's brown spots in the toilet
>> I turned off the heat(unrelated to the toilet or the spots), turned
>> the electrical supply breaker off, then on.
>> The brown spots disappeared.
>
> Keep at it fanbio.  Your favorite software
> vendor can do no harm.
>

When you can find any recommendation of mine that states one should only
use Microsoft products or specifically recommends their software, feel
free to quote me.
Until then, there are are still brown spots in your toilet approach to
troubleshooting, name calling, insults.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 5/7/23 15:06, ...winston wrote:
> Fast Startup when disabled does not clear artifacts(on display or
> spreadsheet)

That depends on what is causing it fanbio. And
have no freaking clue what the actual cause
was. You only know certain possibilities and
can not wrap your love of M$ around abound
other possibilities.

And who care what cased it when the problem
was corrected?

On 5/7/23 13:38, MikeS wrote:
> On 07/05/2023 07:48, ...winston wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>> On 5/6/23 10:24, ...winston wrote:
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, you have no freaking idea what actually caused
>>>>> the artifacts, yet you claim superior knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I've said before.
>>>>
>>>> Disabling Fast Start doesn't(and will never) fix artifacts on a
>>>> display or spreadsheet.
>>>
>>> Bull Shit.   A corrupted OS can write crap to
>>> video memory.  Oh the pretty crap that shows
>>> on your screen when you do so.
>>>
>>> And Paul's explanations were well done as
>>> probably causes.  Your's, on the other hand,
>>> stated things as unequivocal fact, when you
>>> have no freaking clue what the actual cause was.
>>>
>>> I do not either.  I just now what stopped it.
>>>
>>> Fanbio.
>>
>> Keep digging that hole.
>> Fast Start being disabled won't fix artifacts or a corrupted o/s.
>> I don't need to have a clue on the cause...but I do know that Fast
>> Start disabling will never fix the effect.
>>
>> You, on the other hand...don't know what stopped it since it was never
>> turned back on by any means.
>>
>> Your reasoning is akin to:
>> There's brown spots in the toilet
>> I turned off the heat(unrelated to the toilet or the spots), turned
>> the electrical supply breaker off, then on.
>> The brown spots disappeared.
>>
> You have been on about this for weeks - and are still wrong.
>
> Implementing fast startup may mean a user runs Windows for months w/o
> rebooting it.
> Errors build up over time for some reason.
> Turn off fast startup and Windows will reboot, clearing artefacts or a
> corrupted o/s.
>
Excellent description.

T wrote:
> On 5/7/23 13:38, MikeS wrote:
>> On 07/05/2023 07:48, ...winston wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>> On 5/6/23 10:24, ...winston wrote:
>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, you have no freaking idea what actually caused
>>>>>> the artifacts, yet you claim superior knowledge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I've said before.
>>>>>
>>>>> Disabling Fast Start doesn't(and will never) fix artifacts on a
>>>>> display or spreadsheet.
>>>>
>>>> Bull Shit.   A corrupted OS can write crap to
>>>> video memory.  Oh the pretty crap that shows
>>>> on your screen when you do so.
>>>>
>>>> And Paul's explanations were well done as
>>>> probably causes.  Your's, on the other hand,
>>>> stated things as unequivocal fact, when you
>>>> have no freaking clue what the actual cause was.
>>>>
>>>> I do not either.  I just now what stopped it.
>>>>
>>>> Fanbio.
>>>
>>> Keep digging that hole.
>>> Fast Start being disabled won't fix artifacts or a corrupted o/s.
>>> I don't need to have a clue on the cause...but I do know that Fast
>>> Start disabling will never fix the effect.
>>>
>>> You, on the other hand...don't know what stopped it since it was
>>> never turned back on by any means.
>>>
>>> Your reasoning is akin to:
>>> There's brown spots in the toilet
>>> I turned off the heat(unrelated to the toilet or the spots), turned
>>> the electrical supply breaker off, then on.
>>> The brown spots disappeared.
>>>
>> You have been on about this for weeks - and are still wrong.
>>
>> Implementing fast startup may mean a user runs Windows for months w/o
>> rebooting it.
>> Errors build up over time for some reason.
>> Turn off fast startup and Windows will reboot, clearing artefacts or a
>> corrupted o/s.
>>
>
> Excellent description.

Another error on your part in understanding Fast Startup.

"Turn off fast startup and Windows will reboot"
Windows does not/will not reboot when Fast Startup is turned off.

Fast Startup in case you missed this one, doesn't apply to a Restart
either. Only to a 'Shutdown'

That hole of misunderstanding keeps getting bigger.

Has nothing to do with MSFT, it's closer to PEBKAC

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
> On 07/05/2023 07:48, ...winston wrote:
[...]

> You have been on about this for weeks - and are still wrong.

No, he isn't. And *if* you think he's wrong, then pray tell *what* is
wrong. Just saying "You are wrong." is meaningless.

> Implementing fast startup may mean a user runs Windows for months w/o
> rebooting it.

Which is a *good* thing! See my earlier reference of my laptop running
for 3 months without rebooting.

> Errors build up over time for some reason.

Urban legend, FUD, etc.. That *used* to be case in the old pre-NT
days, but hasn't been a problem for a long, long time.

N.B. We're talking about the *OS*, not some crap *programs* causing
problems, which makes the unwary user *think* (s)he needs to reboot.

> Turn off fast startup and Windows will reboot, clearing artefacts or a
> corrupted o/s.

"artifacts" and "a corrupted o/s" is more FUD. Let's stick to facts,
data, verification, etc., shall we?

No, the Windows OS isn't perfect, far from it, but it is way, way more
stable and robust than T's rants imply.

Anyway, as has been mentioned umpteen times, he didn't do any
verification of his (fast start-up) 'fix', so he didn't prove a thing
either way.

And don't get me (us?) wrong: I don't blame him for not doing the
verification, because that would probably inconvenience his customer,
but I *do* blame him for drawing baseless conclusions and especially for
abusing and insulting others who point out the errors in his 'methods'.

On 5/7/2023 6:55 PM, T wrote:
> On 5/7/23 15:06, ...winston wrote:
>> Fast Startup when disabled does not clear artifacts(on display or spreadsheet)
>
>
> That depends on what is causing it fanbio.  And
> have no freaking clue what the actual cause
> was.  You only know certain possibilities and
> can not wrap your love of M$ around abound
> other possibilities.
>
> And who care what cased it when the problem
> was corrected?

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/test/weg/delivering-a-great-startup-and-shutdown-experience

"The faster startup and shutdown sequence uses the hibernate infrastructure
to place the PC in hibernate. Unlike a full shutdown and boot, the user
session is closed and a hibernate is performed. As a result, the hibernate
file is much smaller, ensuring that the hibernate and resume process is faster.
This sequence also takes advantage of the parallelization optimizations.

Developers creating drivers or apps with a system service and system integrators
should monitor driver quality issues, such as memory leaks. Although driver quality
has always been important, note that the up-time between kernel reboots might
be significantly longer than on previous versions of Windows because during
user-initiated shutdowns, the kernel, drivers, and services are preserved and restored,
not just restarted.
"

That's sounds almost like a "logout" followed by a hibernate.
Because they mention "services", Ring3 is not shut down.
Just the user session is shut down. the memory map isn't
substantially renewed.

From a failure analysis point of view, now we have to start asking
*which exact things* are being left running. Is DWM a part of a session
or does it belong to the OS portion ?

This is not particularly a clean partitioning.

At the very bottom of this, it says "Explorer initializing", so Explorer was shut,
but we don't know about DWM.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/test/wpt/images/optimizingperformancelab12.png

( https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/test/wpt/optimizing-performance-and-responsiveness-exercise-2 )

Paul

On 5/8/23 10:41, Paul wrote:
> On 5/7/2023 6:55 PM, T wrote:
>> On 5/7/23 15:06, ...winston wrote:
>>> Fast Startup when disabled does not clear artifacts(on display or
>>> spreadsheet)
>>
>>
>> That depends on what is causing it fanbio.  And
>> have no freaking clue what the actual cause
>> was.  You only know certain possibilities and
>> can not wrap your love of M$ around abound
>> other possibilities.
>>
>> And who care what cased it when the problem
>> was corrected?
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/test/weg/delivering-a-great-startup-and-shutdown-experience
>
>    "The faster startup and shutdown sequence uses the hibernate
> infrastructure
>     to place the PC in hibernate. Unlike a full shutdown and boot, the
> user
>     session is closed and a hibernate is performed. As a result, the
> hibernate
>     file is much smaller, ensuring that the hibernate and resume
> process is faster.
>     This sequence also takes advantage of the parallelization
> optimizations.
>
>     Developers creating drivers or apps with a system service and
> system integrators
>     should monitor driver quality issues, such as memory leaks.
> Although driver quality
>     has always been important, note that the up-time between kernel
> reboots might
>     be significantly longer than on previous versions of Windows
> because during
>     user-initiated shutdowns, the kernel, drivers, and services are
> preserved and restored,
>     not just restarted.
>    "
>
> That's sounds almost like a "logout" followed by a hibernate.
> Because they mention "services", Ring3 is not shut down.
> Just the user session is shut down. the memory map isn't
> substantially renewed.
>
> From a failure analysis point of view, now we have to start asking
> *which exact things* are being left running. Is DWM a part of a session
> or does it belong to the OS portion ?
>
> This is not particularly a clean partitioning.
>
> At the very bottom of this, it says "Explorer initializing", so Explorer
> was shut,
> but we don't know about DWM.
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/test/wpt/images/optimizingperformancelab12.png
>
> (
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/test/wpt/optimizing-performance-and-responsiveness-exercise-2 )
>
>    Paul
>
>

My big beef with M$ is the Fast Startup should
be its own option and not the default. And
Fast Startup should NEVER been called Shutdown.
They should be two separate command which the
user can choose.

Idea, maybe rename Shutdown to Poweroff.
And Fast Boot to Quick Start Hibernation.

I was (pure) speculating in my mind why the
artifacts showing on the screen during the
display of a particular spreadsheet was caused
but something stray being written to video memory.
I was coupling that with your excellent description
of things that cause artifacts and the gpu having
its power cut. I thought that perhaps what was
writing to video memory (if that was even the
case) was in the part that got suspended. And
when restored did the same thing again.
And as far as saving time, zero of my customers
that I have disabled the unethical feature on
have noticed any boot time difference. I do
believe it is just a case of "perception".
Fast Start up is obviously faster

On 5/7/23 22:26, ...winston wrote:
> T wrote:
>> On 5/7/23 13:38, MikeS wrote:
>>> On 07/05/2023 07:48, ...winston wrote:
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>> On 5/6/23 10:24, ...winston wrote:
>>>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, you have no freaking idea what actually caused
>>>>>>> the artifacts, yet you claim superior knowledge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I've said before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Disabling Fast Start doesn't(and will never) fix artifacts on a
>>>>>> display or spreadsheet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bull Shit.   A corrupted OS can write crap to
>>>>> video memory.  Oh the pretty crap that shows
>>>>> on your screen when you do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> And Paul's explanations were well done as
>>>>> probably causes.  Your's, on the other hand,
>>>>> stated things as unequivocal fact, when you
>>>>> have no freaking clue what the actual cause was.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not either.  I just now what stopped it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fanbio.
>>>>
>>>> Keep digging that hole.
>>>> Fast Start being disabled won't fix artifacts or a corrupted o/s.
>>>> I don't need to have a clue on the cause...but I do know that Fast
>>>> Start disabling will never fix the effect.
>>>>
>>>> You, on the other hand...don't know what stopped it since it was
>>>> never turned back on by any means.
>>>>
>>>> Your reasoning is akin to:
>>>> There's brown spots in the toilet
>>>> I turned off the heat(unrelated to the toilet or the spots), turned
>>>> the electrical supply breaker off, then on.
>>>> The brown spots disappeared.
>>>>
>>> You have been on about this for weeks - and are still wrong.
>>>
>>> Implementing fast startup may mean a user runs Windows for months w/o
>>> rebooting it.
>>> Errors build up over time for some reason.
>>> Turn off fast startup and Windows will reboot, clearing artefacts or
>>> a corrupted o/s.
>>>
>>
>> Excellent description.
>
> Another error on your part in understanding Fast Startup.
>
> "Turn off fast startup and Windows will reboot"
>  Windows does not/will not reboot when Fast Startup is turned off.
>
> Fast Startup in case you missed this one, doesn't apply to a Restart
> either. Only to a 'Shutdown'
>
> That hole of misunderstanding keeps getting bigger.
>
> Has nothing to do with MSFT, it's closer to PEBKAC
>
>

Hey fanboi,
His description was excellent. Your's sucked.
Mike DID NOT mean that disabling caused a reboot.
He meant that when fast start is off and you
shutdown, you get a real reboot. You are
twisting his words.
Oh and Fanboi, "restart" is "suppose" to do a real
restart. It does lately, but I have come across
prior build where it would not implement
the disable command until your did a hard
reboot from the command line. But you knew all
this didn't you fanbio.
On and another thing fanboi, certain updates in
the past re-enabled this unethical feature.
And Fast Start will actually do a real reboot
after about 30 days (I may have that number
of days wrong).
-T

For a laptop, I can see why hibernation is useful but maybe not for a
desktop, and certainly not for my (old & quirky) Windows 10 desktops.

Hibernation
https://www.howtogeek.com/868748/how-to-disable-hibernation-on-windows-10/

For a laptop, most come with SSDs nowadays, don't they? So I can see less
of a need for (unrelated) fast startup features, which always confused me.

Fast Startup
https://www.howtogeek.com/856514/how-to-disable-fast-startup-on-windows-10/

For whatever reason, my two desktops (different brands, models & CPUs)
won't reliably recover from when they go to sleep. Yet my laptops, with
SSDs not only recover quite nicely, but they boot up within seconds.

I'm not sure what the difference is between hibernation & fast startup.

Whatever the cause, my solution was to turn off both hibernation and the
un-related fast startup. Neither of my desktops has hung since, but the
drawback, of course, is that cold startup takes a minute or two longer now.
--
Life is short. Make sure you spend as much time as possible on the
internet arguing with strangers about politics.

Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote:

>For a laptop, I can see why hibernation is useful but maybe not for a
>desktop, and certainly not for my (old & quirky) Windows 10 desktops.
>
>Hibernation
>https://www.howtogeek.com/868748/how-to-disable-hibernation-on-windows-10/
>
>For a laptop, most come with SSDs nowadays, don't they? So I can see less
>of a need for (unrelated) fast startup features, which always confused me.
>
>Fast Startup
>https://www.howtogeek.com/856514/how-to-disable-fast-startup-on-windows-10/
>
>For whatever reason, my two desktops (different brands, models & CPUs)
>won't reliably recover from when they go to sleep. Yet my laptops, with
>SSDs not only recover quite nicely, but they boot up within seconds.
>
>I'm not sure what the difference is between hibernation & fast startup.
>
>Whatever the cause, my solution was to turn off both hibernation and the
>un-related fast startup. Neither of my desktops has hung since, but the
>drawback, of course, is that cold startup takes a minute or two longer now.

What you're calling "fast startup" refers to the OS hibernating its
own core components, when you "shut down" the OS, doing a *complete*
shut down only when rebooting.

The hibernation *feature*, on the other hand, *also* writes the entire
contents of a Windows session to storage, to be resumed, and
completely shuts off power - I use it, with my roomy 1 TB NVMe drive
(i.e. large enough that I don't worry too much about the wear and
tear, since it's not squeezing the temporary writes of data into a
small space, to be reused over and over), when I want to turn off the
computer, when I leave the house for a relatively long period of time.

Both features are worth using, for me, but obviously, it depends on
having reliable hardware, including RAM and the storage device,
because errors will lead to an unstable situation, possibly as you've
described with the machines you disabled fast startup on. Would be
good to know what caused the issue, of course, but at least you've
worked around it.

--
Joel Crump

On 4/21/2023 8:09 PM, Joel wrote:
> What you're calling "fast startup" refers to the OS hibernating its
> own core components, when you "shut down" the OS, doing a *complete*
> shut down only when rebooting.

Thank you for that summary of how hibernation differs from fast startup.
That's interesting that the "fast startup" is a "hibernation" of sorts.

I didn't name it "fast startup" though. Microsoft did.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/fast-startup-how-to-disable-if-its-causing/f9a4a2d0-104d-42dc-9946-4a2e13c0a348

I never understood what the difference was, but this is what that says.
"Fast Startup is a hybrid combination of a cold startup and a
wake-from-hibernation startup. Frequently, kernel-mode device drivers need
to distinguish Fast Startups from wake-from-hibernation so that their
devices behave as users expect."

"During a cold startup, the boot loader constructs a kernel memory image
by loading the sections of the Windows kernel file into memory and linking
them. Next, the kernel configures core system functions, enumerates the
devices attached to the computer, and loads drivers for them."

"In contrast, a fast startup simply loads the hibernation file
(Hiberfil.sys) into memory to restore the previously saved image of the
Windows kernel and loaded drivers. A fast startup tends to take
significantly less time than a cold startup."

"More information (and much more in-depth) here."
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/kernel/distinguishing-fast-startup-from-wake-from-hibernation
> The hibernation *feature*, on the other hand, *also* writes the entire
> contents of a Windows session to storage, to be resumed, and
> completely shuts off power - I use it, with my roomy 1 TB NVMe drive
> (i.e. large enough that I don't worry too much about the wear and
> tear, since it's not squeezing the temporary writes of data into a
> small space, to be reused over and over), when I want to turn off the
> computer, when I leave the house for a relatively long period of time.

It's very confusing to me why they have both hibernation & fast startup.

Whatever caused the desktops to hang, I didn't have the tools to know what
caused the issue so I just disabled both the fast startup & the hibernation
on the two desktops & the issue has never happened since I disabled both.

Maybe I could have gotten away with disabling only one and not the other?

> Both features are worth using, for me, but obviously, it depends on
> having reliable hardware, including RAM and the storage device,
> because errors will lead to an unstable situation, possibly as you've
> described with the machines you disabled fast startup on. Would be
> good to know what caused the issue, of course, but at least you've
> worked around it.

Also if you dual boot and want to access the Windows file system from
another operating system, you have to disable one or both of them anyway.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/432869/cant-mount-dual-boot-partition-windows-is-hibernated

I never really understood whether you really needed to disable both
hibernation and fast startup to share data in a dual boot situation.

It gets confusing real fast.
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1070689/is-dual-boot-windows-10-with-hibernation-and-ubunutu-18-04-dangerous
--
When did Western society decide that instead of helping mentally ill
people, we should indulge their delusions 100% and allow them to set
policy for the rest of us?

Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote:

>> What you're calling "fast startup" refers to the OS hibernating its
>> own core components, when you "shut down" the OS, doing a *complete*
>> shut down only when rebooting.
>
>Thank you for that summary of how hibernation differs from fast startup.
>That's interesting that the "fast startup" is a "hibernation" of sorts.
>
>I didn't name it "fast startup" though. Microsoft did.
>https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/fast-startup-how-to-disable-if-its-causing/f9a4a2d0-104d-42dc-9946-4a2e13c0a348

Ah, you're right, the term I remembered was out of date, Microsoft
does love to change things (as we've been discussing, in another
thread). Good to know of the current term.

>I never understood what the difference was, but this is what that says.
> "Fast Startup is a hybrid combination of a cold startup and a
>wake-from-hibernation startup. Frequently, kernel-mode device drivers need
>to distinguish Fast Startups from wake-from-hibernation so that their
>devices behave as users expect."
>
> "During a cold startup, the boot loader constructs a kernel memory image
>by loading the sections of the Windows kernel file into memory and linking
>them. Next, the kernel configures core system functions, enumerates the
>devices attached to the computer, and loads drivers for them."
>
> "In contrast, a fast startup simply loads the hibernation file
>(Hiberfil.sys) into memory to restore the previously saved image of the
>Windows kernel and loaded drivers. A fast startup tends to take
>significantly less time than a cold startup."
>
> "More information (and much more in-depth) here."
>https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/kernel/distinguishing-fast-startup-from-wake-from-hibernation

Yeah, it's one of those things that is useful, as long as it works.

>> The hibernation *feature*, on the other hand, *also* writes the entire
>> contents of a Windows session to storage, to be resumed, and
>> completely shuts off power - I use it, with my roomy 1 TB NVMe drive
>> (i.e. large enough that I don't worry too much about the wear and
>> tear, since it's not squeezing the temporary writes of data into a
>> small space, to be reused over and over), when I want to turn off the
>> computer, when I leave the house for a relatively long period of time.
>
>It's very confusing to me why they have both hibernation & fast startup.
>
>Whatever caused the desktops to hang, I didn't have the tools to know what
>caused the issue so I just disabled both the fast startup & the hibernation
>on the two desktops & the issue has never happened since I disabled both.
>
>Maybe I could have gotten away with disabling only one and not the other?

If fast startup doesn't work, it's a safe bet that hibernating the
session won't, either.

>> Both features are worth using, for me, but obviously, it depends on
>> having reliable hardware, including RAM and the storage device,
>> because errors will lead to an unstable situation, possibly as you've
>> described with the machines you disabled fast startup on. Would be
>> good to know what caused the issue, of course, but at least you've
>> worked around it.
>
>Also if you dual boot and want to access the Windows file system from
>another operating system, you have to disable one or both of them anyway.
>https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/432869/cant-mount-dual-boot-partition-windows-is-hibernated
>
>I never really understood whether you really needed to disable both
>hibernation and fast startup to share data in a dual boot situation.
>
>It gets confusing real fast.
>https://askubuntu.com/questions/1070689/is-dual-boot-windows-10-with-hibernation-and-ubunutu-18-04-dangerous

Well, the obvious answer is simply that the apps that are in suspended
animation, in the Windows session, will have open files, that could be
modified by the Linux session, borking the resumption of the Windows
session, later.

--
Joel Crump

On 4/21/23 16:55, Wade Garrett wrote:
> For a laptop, I can see why hibernation is useful but maybe not for a
> desktop, and certainly not for my (old & quirky) Windows 10 desktops.
>
> Hibernation
> https://www.howtogeek.com/868748/how-to-disable-hibernation-on-windows-10/
>
> For a laptop, most come with SSDs nowadays, don't they? So I can see less
> of a need for (unrelated) fast startup features, which always confused me.
>
> Fast Startup
> https://www.howtogeek.com/856514/how-to-disable-fast-startup-on-windows-10/
>
> For whatever reason, my two desktops (different brands, models & CPUs)
> won't reliably recover from when they go to sleep. Yet my laptops, with
> SSDs not only recover quite nicely, but they boot up within seconds.
>
> I'm not sure what the difference is between hibernation & fast startup.
>
> Whatever the cause, my solution was to turn off both hibernation and the
> un-related fast startup. Neither of my desktops has hung since, but the
> drawback, of course, is that cold startup takes a minute or two longer now.

I am going to piss off the Windows Fanbois here.

Fast Start up causes all kinds of issues with my
customers. I routinely disable it. It is a magic
way to fix a lot of strange problems. The last
one was artifacts on spreadsheets. "But I rebooted
and shutdown? What did you do different!?!?!"

The main benefit of Fast Startup, is the your
computer was never really shutoff and it recovers
quickly.

The down side is that Windows IS NOT a stable operating
system and starts getting weird after about three days
or so. And Fast Start makes sure that whatever problems
you had before ha ha shutting down, you get right back.

If you do a real shutdown of your computer every night
and get a real reboot, you will be hard pressed to
find Windows instabilities. This is Windows Self
Defense 101. (This is not an issue for Mac and
Linux users.)

I see Fast Start as a marketing scheme. See how fast
our piece of s*** , oops, wonderful most compatible
ever operating system boots up! We fixed the slows!!

M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
a cock roach with a weasel.

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>I am going to piss off the Windows Fanbois here.
>
>Fast Start up causes all kinds of issues with my
>customers. I routinely disable it. It is a magic
>way to fix a lot of strange problems. The last
>one was artifacts on spreadsheets. "But I rebooted
>and shutdown? What did you do different!?!?!"
>
>The main benefit of Fast Startup, is the your
>computer was never really shutoff and it recovers
>quickly.
>
>The down side is that Windows IS NOT a stable operating
>system and starts getting weird after about three days
>or so. And Fast Start makes sure that whatever problems
>you had before ha ha shutting down, you get right back.
>
>If you do a real shutdown of your computer every night
>and get a real reboot, you will be hard pressed to
>find Windows instabilities. This is Windows Self
>Defense 101. (This is not an issue for Mac and
>Linux users.)
>
>I see Fast Start as a marketing scheme. See how fast
>our piece of s*** , oops, wonderful most compatible
>ever operating system boots up! We fixed the slows!!
>
>M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
>a cock roach with a weasel.

OK, but you also think the 2020 U.S. presidential election was stolen,
so ...

[There obviously *can* be issues, with a feature like this, but it
wouldn't be in the released product, if it didn't work at least *most*
of the time.]

--
Joel Crump

On 4/21/23 18:10, Joel wrote:
> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I am going to piss off the Windows Fanbois here.
>>
>> Fast Start up causes all kinds of issues with my
>> customers. I routinely disable it. It is a magic
>> way to fix a lot of strange problems. The last
>> one was artifacts on spreadsheets. "But I rebooted
>> and shutdown? What did you do different!?!?!"
>>
>> The main benefit of Fast Startup, is the your
>> computer was never really shutoff and it recovers
>> quickly.
>>
>> The down side is that Windows IS NOT a stable operating
>> system and starts getting weird after about three days
>> or so. And Fast Start makes sure that whatever problems
>> you had before ha ha shutting down, you get right back.
>>
>> If you do a real shutdown of your computer every night
>> and get a real reboot, you will be hard pressed to
>> find Windows instabilities. This is Windows Self
>> Defense 101. (This is not an issue for Mac and
>> Linux users.)
>>
>> I see Fast Start as a marketing scheme. See how fast
>> our piece of s*** , oops, wonderful most compatible
>> ever operating system boots up! We fixed the slows!!
>>
>> M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
>> a cock roach with a weasel.
>
>
> OK, but you also think the 2020 U.S. presidential election was stolen,
> so ...

It was and it has nothing to do with Fast Boot. Leave
politics out of this group please. Take it to
alt.politics.scorched-earth

>
> [There obviously *can* be issues, with a feature like this, but it
> wouldn't be in the released product, if it didn't work at least *most*
> of the time.]

"Can be"? It is a tragic unethical feature. And
none of my customers that I disable it on, which
is all of them, even notice the extra five to
ten seconds to boot up. They are very, very
happy with the result.

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> [There obviously *can* be issues, with a feature like this [Windows fast startup], but it
>> wouldn't be in the released product, if it didn't work at least *most*
>> of the time.]
>
>"Can be"? It is a tragic unethical feature. And
>none of my customers that I disable it on, which
>is all of them, even notice the extra five to
>ten seconds to boot up. They are very, very
>happy with the result.

I guess some people's computers are just cheap OEM crapware, I mean, I
assemble desktops, I don't use third rate parts.

--
Joel Crump

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 18:01:34 -0700, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, T wrote:

>M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
>a cock roach with a weasel.

So... Cockweasels? I like the sound of that.

Remember "hybrid" sleep in Windows 7? Boy, that was a jolly good mess.
When I finally figured out what they had done, I turned that right off.

MS keeps doing these things where things that used to work reliably now
only half-work in unexpected ways that aren't actually the things.

Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows
desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely
no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Zaghadka wrote:

> Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows
> desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
> fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely
> no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.

I have on occasion had a situation where I had something going on that I
didn't want, or was unable, to save it, but I wanted to power my machine
completely off. In that situation, hibernation was the only option I had.

--
Being a cautionary tale is a full-time job. Just ask Lindsay Lohan.

On 4/21/23 19:35, Joel wrote:
> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> [There obviously *can* be issues, with a feature like this [Windows fast startup], but it
>>> wouldn't be in the released product, if it didn't work at least *most*
>>> of the time.]
>>
>> "Can be"? It is a tragic unethical feature. And
>> none of my customers that I disable it on, which
>> is all of them, even notice the extra five to
>> ten seconds to boot up. They are very, very
>> happy with the result.
>
>
> I guess some people's computers are just cheap OEM crapware, I mean, I
> assemble desktops, I don't use third rate parts.
>

Joel,

I work on really, really crappy computers
with Linux on them and THEY DO NOT HAVE
THESE PROBLEMS. Some that Windows will
not even install on or no longer will run on,
even with all the hardware requirements.
It is clearly the low quality if M$'s OS'es.
It is a lot cheaper than buying a new computer.

One time I used a old crappy computer that
Windows would no longer run on (same version )
as a Linux Samba file server and the piece
of junk ran for years.

Next crappy computer you gets your hands
on, try installing Fedora (Mate or Xfce)
and see what you get.

This is not the cheap OEM crapware's fault,
much as I also despise it as well as you,
but a crappy OS.

Ask yourself why every other OS in this
universe lets you decide whether to shutdown,
reboot, hibernate, or suspend and the liars
at M$ do not tell you that shutdown is
not shutdown but rather is some odd form
of suspend/hibernate.

It should be an option for the user to choose.
And they can, M$ does not, lie about those
options, they only lie about shutdown.

At least the liars will let you disable the
feature. Well for now.

-T

On 4/21/23 20:08, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 18:01:34 -0700, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, T wrote:
>
>> M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
>> a cock roach with a weasel.
>
> So... Cockweasels? I like the sound of that.
>
> Remember "hybrid" sleep in Windows 7? Boy, that was a jolly good mess.
> When I finally figured out what they had done, I turned that right off.
>
> MS keeps doing these things where things that used to work reliably now
> only half-work in unexpected ways that aren't actually the things.
>
> Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows
> desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
> fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely
> no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.
>

I remember business users, including grown men, almost in tears because
they walked away from their W7 machines and their machines timed out and
went into hibernation which crashed on re-entry destroying everything
the user had been working on.

I disabled the feature and ordered them to SAVE,
SAVE, SAVE, SAVE, especially before walking away.

Test from a Linux Live USB drives on the same machines
to see if hardware was at fault, you could hibernate
and suspend all you wanted. The OS was clearly at fault.

Joel wrote on 4/21/2023 7:35 PM:
>
> I guess some people's computers are just cheap OEM crapware, I mean, I
> assemble desktops, I don't use third rate parts.
>

That's a significant part of the problem through the OEM market for
consumers, smb, and enterprise.
The desire to cut cost of hardware on expense items(decpriated or not)
or capital items is quite common in all arenas of purchasing OEM devices.

One of the primary problems with Fast Startup is too many devices sold
lacking full compatibility of hardware supporting sleep, fast startup,
and hibernation.

Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture of
turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on
spreadsheets. Cheap or low spec'ed hardware lacking full support existed
prior to that spreadsheet every being first used on a device if that
actual issue was even closely related to FS.

The real truth is that Fast Startup has shared ownership in its existence
in Windows by both OEM and Microsoft.

OEM's and only a select few adopt the guidelines for imaging devices
marketed for sale as prebuilt Windows devices.
Doing a poor job of configuration for a variety of items.
- minimizing running services
- startup apps
- tray resident items
- determining what inbox/oobe 3rd party apps are loaded
- startup reg run keys
- don't refrain from enabling hybrid sleep on devices where a hiberfile
on standby will be created
- rarely balance CPU, Disk, and RAM for a given device(the cheap stuff
even worse)
- pre-configuring as-shipped devices with Fast Boot, Fast Startup enabled.

Thus for most, consumers and business are purchasing at the low to
middle-low end of hardware due to budget or disposable(not discretionary)
income.
Fast Startup and Hibernation makes sense for specific intended use on
certain hardware. Microsoft does it's part on specifying guidelines for
OEM's but few follow(i.e. guidelines not contractual requirements for
Windows devices).

Anyone attempting to solely blame MSFT is just another episode of pushing
out opinions without understanding the truth behind the evolution of fast
startup and hibernation and continuing the propagation of personal
fake-news like beliefs, then as a sideline digress/divert the topic
elsewhere.

Having said the above, and a disclaimer of sort since not all have the
same economic position when purchasing or building a device - the last
major company OEM device I purchased(with one exception) was an HP device
for Windows 95. Desktops (4)purchased since CY2000 have all been built
by Puget Systems. My lowest end device is an ancient Surface 3 currently
running Win10 22H2 with a startup time of about 25-30 sec(more than
reasonable for an 8yr old Intel Atom SOC.

That exception is this 2017 device which one would be hard-pressed to
find anywhere today even close to the same price point - A Costco Acer
Aspire 515G with an as-built condition - 12GB RAM, an 8th gen Intel i7,
500GB SSD, 1TB HD, dual graphics Intel HD 620/Nvidia MX150 etc.
- Startup time on W11 Pro 22H2 about 11 secs(power on to logon screen),
more than reasonable for an 6 yr old device meeting Win11 specs on all
fronts.

:) ...and none of these devices for my personal use need or has Fast
Startup or Hibernation enabled, but it works without issue when enabled
b/c the hardware, services and knowledge meets the guidelines.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

Wade Garrett wrote:

> For a laptop, I can see why hibernation is useful but maybe not for a
> desktop, and certainly not for my (old & quirky) Windows 10 desktops.

This laptop has an NVMe SSD

the time from BIOS screen to windows GUI screen
using hybrid shutdown is 9 seconds

Using a full shutdown it's 16 seconds.

On 4/22/23 01:42, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture of
> turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on spreadsheets.
Hmmmm. It worked.
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
And the artifacts were on the display, not in
the spreadsheet.