On 1/3/2024 6:10 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ " <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote on 1/2/24 11:32 AM:
>>> sticks wrote on 1/1/24 7:28 PM:
>>>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>>>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>>>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>>>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>>>> look for something.
>>>>
>>>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>>>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>>>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>>>
>>>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>>>
>>> With Win10 ending in Oct 2025, your best choices are Linux or Windows 11.
>>>
>>
>> Issues aside with Linux or Windows...
>> Event though the intended device is for an elderly person(almost 80),
>> my point...why purchases any device(refurbed) with Win10 having less than
>> 2 yrs of support to replace a current laptop(supposedly running Win10 but
>> aged and with apparent performance issues).
>> - Is the refurb to be replaced again or upgraded to Win11 in 2 yrs with
>> Win11(it wouldn't make sense to purchase a Win10 refurb in 2026).
>> - Is the resistance to Win11 really valid, or is it skewed based on
>> perception or input. Win11 can be tweaked to look like Win10(but not
>> really necessary if on properly configures the Start Screen and TaskBar
>> with only the apps and programs an 80 yr might/will use.
>>
>> While Linux would not be my choice if buying a device for someone less
>> than a decade older than I when they've been using Windows since(as
>> noted) XP...
>> => Windows 11 still appears to be the most logical choice regardless of
>> a refurb or new device...and a desktop may not be the best choice
>> either(why limit an aging person to use a device in one single location!)
>
> While Windows 10 support from Microsoft ends in Oct 2025, that doesn't
> mean the OS becomes immediately obsolete or unusable. Windows 10 came
> out in 2016, but I used Windows 7 until 2019 (and totally skipped Win8).
> I didn't switch just because Microsoft came out with a new version.
>
> My expectation is that I will use Windows 10 long after its support has
> ended. A lot of software deprecates its use under old versions of
> Windows, but that is typically around 4 years. So, I'll likely be using
> Windows 10 until about 2029. That's 6 years away, not 2. With
> Microsoft flopping around on good versions of Windows (WinXP: yes,
> WinVista: no, Win7: yes, Win8: no, Win10: eh, so-so, Win11: not much
> bang for the buck or effort), by then we'll get to see what Microsoft
> does with Windows 12. Those that have stayed with Windows 10 may not
> leap to Windows 11 just because it exists, but wait until Windows 12, or
> maybe even 13 (which they'll probably skip, like they did with 9, so 13
> will be called 14). For users, a lot depends on when other software
> departs old versions of an OS. The OS is just the plate on which the
> cake sits. It is not the be-all or end-all to users. It's what the
> users can run on the OS. That's the point of a general-purpose OS.

I find I agree with this perspective completely. I have never been one
to jump on any of the new versions over the years myself. Neither have
the in-laws. They'll be just fine with windows 10 for some time to come
I think.

I really appreciate your thoughts below. I too find them very helpful.
Thanks. Post saved for checking out 11

> Rather than tout a new version, better is to compile a matrix of
> differences to compare the 2, and then check which, if any, differences
> are really important to you, not what Microsoft marketers want to push.
>
> User Interface
> Win11: Fluent Design with new Start Menu and Taskbar
> Win10: Classic Start Menu and Taskbar
> Glitz change with no real benefit. Microsoft has long adhered to the
> strategy that making something look different just must be better.
> Conclusion: No real benefit to users, adds a superfluous learning curve.
> A change in GUI does not mandate better experience, and why many users
> use Start10, OpenShell, and other alternatives to return to a familiar
> GUI.
>
> System Requirements
> Win11: 64-bit Processor with 2 cores, 4GB RAM, and 64GB Storage
> Win10: 64-bit Processor with 1 GHz clock speed, 2GB RAM, and 20GB HDD
> Fatter disk footprint for Win11. Higher CPU reqs whether the apps will
> be better to the user.
> Conclusion: Same ol' mindset of trying to make usable hardware
> disposable. No benefit to existing computer users.
>
> Widgets
> Win11: Integrated Widgets for quick access to information
> Win10: No integrated Widgets
> Yeah, Microsoft yanked them due to security vulnerabilities. Now
> they're back despite users really haven't needed any.
> Conclusion: Who dropped Win10 because of no widgets? No one.
>
> Virtual Desktops
> Win11: Improved virtual desktops with snap layouts and new animations
> Win10: Virtual desktops with limited functionality
> Conclusion: Microsoft is always late with these type of features. There
> are much better 3rd-party VDs available, and for quite a while.
>
> Touch Controls
> Win11: Improved touch controls for touch devices
> Win10: Limited touch controls
> Conclusion: Fluff if you don't have nor use a touch screen.
>
> Gaming Performance
> Win11: Improved gaming performance with Auto HDR and DirectStorage
> Win10: Similar gaming performance to Windows 11
> Conclusion: No benefit.
>
> Microsoft Store
> Win11: Redesigned Microsoft Store with support for Android apps
> Win10: Traditional Microsoft Store
> Conclusion: Only of value if you have apps on your Android smart phone
> you would like on your Windows host. Win32 apps are far more robust
> than UWP apps, and are more robust than Android apps. For what you
> could run under Windows, anything Android is a downgrade.
>
> Security
> Win11: Enhanced security features with Windows Hello and TPM 2.0
> Win10: Similar security features to Windows 11
> Conclusion. No benefit. Many users disable Hello, anyway. TPM is not a
> requirement for Win10, but is for Win11, so Win11 forces hardware
> upgrades.
>
> Multitasking
> Win11: Snap Layouts and Snap Groups for improved multitasking
> Win10: Basic multitasking capabilities
> Conclusion: More fluff which many users disable. Also, 3rd-party
> software has been able to snap groups for a long time (e.g., Stardock's
> Object Desktop). Again, Microsoft trying to catch up.
>
> Task Manager
> Win11: Updated Task Manager with more details and options
> Win10: Similar Task Manager to Windows 11
> Conclusion: No benefit. While not completely replacing Task Manager,
> SysInternal Process Explorer makes a good choice, plus it can work with
> VirusTotal to check on untoward processes.
>
> File Explorer
> Win11: Redesigned File Explorer with a new layout and features
> Win10: Traditional File Explorer with limited features
> Conclusion: If you feel the need for a better File Explorer, look to
> 3rd-party alternatives.
>
> Start Menu
> Win11: New Start Menu design with pinned and recommended apps
> Win10: Classic Start Menu with limited features
> Conclusion: Change for the sake of change with no real benefit. Use
> OpenShell to revert.
>
> Cortana
> Win11: Separated from search and no longer integrated into the taskbar
> Win10: Integrated into the taskbar
> Conclusion: Microsoft dropped Cortana to replace with Bing AI which is
> an Edge-C feature. AI just gets in the way making inappropriate
> guesses.
>
> Updates
> Win11: Automatic updates with fewer interruptions and improved control
> Win10: Similar update process to Windows 11
> Conclusion: And still Microsoft ignores their consumer base who actually
> want to wrest control away from Microsoft, and decide if and when to
> update or upgrade.
>
> Compatibility
> Win11: Improved compatibility with new hardware and software
> Win10: Improved compatibility with existing hardware and software
> Conclusion: A future benefit after hardware and software becomes viewed
> as "old".
>
> Nope, not much value in switching from Windows 10 you already have to a
> no-bang-for-the-buck Windows 11. Yes, Windows 10 support dies in 2025,
> but when has discontinued support mandated immediate obsolescence? The
> OP's mother-in-law, the OP, I, and many other users will still find
> Windows 10 quite usable for another decade. Instead of putty, primer,
> and paint to make siding look different, we're still waiting for
> Microsoft to give us new siding; i.e., something *substantial* to
> provide impetus for change.
>
> The OP's MIL bought her laptop about 10 years ago. She might be getting
> a new desktop soon, so new hardware, but same OS (Windows 10). So what
> if in another 10 years she wants a new computer with new hardware and
> whatever OS is available then. If you work in a enterprise-level
> company providing software and support to corporate customers, you'll
> know that many are using ancient operating systems. Consumers are
> simply easier targets to con into paying for upgrades when not needed.

On 1/2/2024 1:49 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> She bought this laptop probably around 10 years ago. I had just
>> finished setting up the FIL with his laptop and her older desktop
>> (XP) broke down. She couldn't wait for me to help her in choosing
>> because she can't go a day without one without experiencing serious
>> withdrawal. It was a windows 7 machine, that I upgraded to win 10,
>> imaged, and helped get her email and browser set up.
>
> For whatever web browser she uses, does it update itself? Some sites
> refuse to work or reduce their content when old versions of web browsers
> visit them. Some will look at just the version of the web browser while
> some will test the functions of the web browser to ensure it will
> support the Javascript and HTML code in their web docs. Not sure what
> "booted off" means unless it is the following wifi issue.
>
>> Wi-fi radio is most likely turning to toast (going there now to put a
>> usb receiver temporarily)
>
> A USB dongle was my first thought. Go into the OS, disable the old NIC
> hardware in devmgmt.msc, and go forward with the USB wifi dongle, but be
> sure it isn't blocked or too far away from the wifi router or wifi
> access point.
>
> However, since it is a laptop, overheating may be the cause. Lint and
> dust are thermal insulators. May need to dismantle the laptop case to
> use compressed air to blow out the dust. If it gets too hot inside, the
> CPU will throttle itself to reduce its workload and how much heat it
> generates.

I have had it apart before, but not this time. I did check the outside
fan slots, and it looked OK. Very good thought, though.

>> Her laptop has the small soft battery inside and not easily removable,
>> that is completely junk.
>
> Hmm, in the laptops that I've worked on, the battery is a module that
> snaps in and out of a recess inside the case under an access cover. Is
> this a laptop, or notebook? Make and model? Might be a Youtube video
> on it that you could use to figure out how to replace the battery, or
> just disconnect it (although sometimes the battery is used as a
> capacitor, so the computer won't power up without a battery).

I don't recall the make and model off hand, but it is not accessible
from any of the outside covers. You have to take it all apart, and the
battery looks like a couple AA batteries wrapped together. I suppose
the ones we're used to seeing are basically the same thing, only they
get put in a case and are accessible. It was the first time I had seen
one like that.

>> Restarting took quite some time to get to a screen, like a half hour
>> or so.
>
> Sounds like the corruption is user sourced. She's doing something to
> cause the extended boot time, like installing software and allowing
> anything to add itself as a startup program, installing crap software,
> or even installing malware. When she logs into a Windows account, is it
> an admin or user account? Might need to put her on a user (normal)
> account which restricts her from installing anything. You'll have to be
> on-call to do that for her just to protect her from herself.

The big problem I believe is her and her darn games. I have had to
backup an image before because of nasty little things that come with
these damn games she downloads, installs, and plays. It's not even
worth it anymore to talk about it. I just have an image handy and she
can do whatever she wants. She's going to anyway.

>
>> She used desktops for years and knows the difference. They just
>> decided having laptops would somehow be simpler for them, not taking
>> into consideration the pain in the ass they are to work on, get parts
>> for, and the slower speeds from desktop hardware.
>
> Decent laptops cost more than similar performing desktops. Ever
> consider building the desktop yourself?

--snip--

That's how I used to do it. I think they used to sell "bare bones"
setups that had a motherboard and processor, and you could add on from
there. I saw a little while back that method has gotten pretty
expensive if you're trying to stay cutting edge. IMO, the values isn't
there anymore and you can't beat the savings from what the big guys can
do because of volume.

I am retired and don't need the best thing anymore, so I do admit I'll
settle for something a few years old.

>
> Like Paul mentions, if you intend to save cost by getting a refurb, get
> from a local store where you can ask questions about returns and OS
> license. Prices can vary a lot even on the same make and model, so shop
> around for best price, but consider, too, from where you buy.

I checked out amazon and they too seem to have quite a bit of these
refurbs. Actually, they seem to have the best prices too. Still looking.

Thanks

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> I don't recall the make and model off hand, but it is not accessible
> from any of the outside covers. You have to take it all apart, and the
> battery looks like a couple AA batteries wrapped together. I suppose
> the ones we're used to seeing are basically the same thing, only they
> get put in a case and are accessible. It was the first time I had seen
> one like that.

A couple AA batteries strapped together regardless of chemistry would
not be sufficient to power a laptop when mobile. Maybe you were looking
at the CMOS battery.

> That's how I used to do it. I think they used to sell "bare bones"
> setups that had a motherboard and processor, and you could add on from
> there. I saw a little while back that method has gotten pretty
> expensive if you're trying to stay cutting edge. IMO, the values isn't
> there anymore and you can't beat the savings from what the big guys can
> do because of volume.

I don't get pre-assembled bare bones units. I can't be sure if they did
a decent job for the thermal paste on the CPU heatsink. Way too many
folks, including self-professed techs, gob on way too much paste. It's
supposed to fill the microscopic gaps between CPU plate and heatsink,
not be itself a thermal transfer media. Air is worst, paste is less
worse, and metal-to-metal is best. Often you don't get good or high
quality fans, and quiet, just typical crap in cheap computers. The PSUs
are crap as they can't give you a high-quality PSU at their price.

> I checked out amazon and they too seem to have quite a bit of these
> refurbs. Actually, they seem to have the best prices too. Still looking.

Did you include the shipping cost from Amazon? Some folks pay to
subscribe to the Prime service tier, but I don't order enough from them
to qualify the expense of Prime ($15/mo) against shipping for the few
times per years I place orders with them. There is a checkbox "Free
shipping by Amazon", but, just like with Prime, they've already added
shipping cost, so it's the pretense of free shipping.

You could visit a local shop or their web site to see what they have for
refurbs, note which make and models you like, check if Amazon has the
same or equivalent refurb, and perhaps negotiate with the local store to
get close to the Amazon price.

winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Based on your reasoning to continue to use Win10 post EOL support, you
> would let your near 80 yr old MIL operate a device without maximum
> available security.

Yep. I don't hide behind the security card as an excuse to get a newer
version of Windows that *promises* more nebulous security (whether I
want it or not). And, of course, we users have to hope Microsoft
doesn't yet come out with another update whether for the OS or drivers
that isn't corruptive as malware.

Also remember the audience: the OP looking to upgrade the hardware for
his 80-year old MIL. He's looking at refurbs to save on cost. He's not
going to save much if he buys a Win10 setup, and then have to buy a
Win11 license. A lot more refurbs come with Win10, and fewer with
Win11. Companies haven't yet en masse disposed of their leased
workstations running Win11.

Win10 can be used on a computer with TPM2. Win11 ups the hardware
requirement, so those refurbs may not qualify.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enable-tpm-2-0-on-your-pc-1fd5a332-360d-4f46-a1e7-ae6b0c90645c
Those without a TPM module may still work with Windows 11 if their BIOS
has the Intel PTT (Platform Trust Technology) firmware to perform the
functions of the TPM module. However, that means the OP will have to
delve into each candidate refurb to see it is has a TPM module (and it
is installed), or has the Intel PTT firmware in the BIOS.

CPU requirements are also upped for Windows 11. Those Win10 refurbs
that let the OP reduce cost may not qualify for Win11. It will be the
OP that decides if the higher cost of Win11 refurbs is of value over a
lower cost Win10 refurb.

If the OP can afford a higher priced Win11 refurb, like another $100,
and would like to try OpenShell or other tricks to make Win11 look more
like Win10 to placate his MIL, then go for it, but be prepared the MIL
may complain she didn't get what she wanted. Despite your aspirations
for Win11, the MIL has already dictated she wants Win10. Therein lies
the major filter on what refurb the OP will get. You might try to get
more than what the customer wants, but don't ignore what they want.

VanguardLH wrote on 1/3/24 8:17 PM:
> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Based on your reasoning to continue to use Win10 post EOL support, you
>> would let your near 80 yr old MIL operate a device without maximum
>> available security.
>
> Yep. I don't hide behind the security card as an excuse to get a newer
> version of Windows that *promises* more nebulous security (whether I
> want it or not). And, of course, we users have to hope Microsoft
> doesn't yet come out with another update whether for the OS or drivers
> that isn't corruptive as malware.
>
> Also remember the audience: the OP looking to upgrade the hardware for
> his 80-year old MIL. He's looking at refurbs to save on cost. He's not
> going to save much if he buys a Win10 setup, and then have to buy a
> Win11 license. A lot more refurbs come with Win10, and fewer with
> Win11. Companies haven't yet en masse disposed of their leased
> workstations running Win11.
>
> Win10 can be used on a computer with TPM2. Win11 ups the hardware
> requirement, so those refurbs may not qualify.
>
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enable-tpm-2-0-on-your-pc-1fd5a332-360d-4f46-a1e7-ae6b0c90645c
> Those without a TPM module may still work with Windows 11 if their BIOS
> has the Intel PTT (Platform Trust Technology) firmware to perform the
> functions of the TPM module. However, that means the OP will have to
> delve into each candidate refurb to see it is has a TPM module (and it
> is installed), or has the Intel PTT firmware in the BIOS.
>
> CPU requirements are also upped for Windows 11. Those Win10 refurbs
> that let the OP reduce cost may not qualify for Win11. It will be the
> OP that decides if the higher cost of Win11 refurbs is of value over a
> lower cost Win10 refurb.
>
> If the OP can afford a higher priced Win11 refurb, like another $100,
> and would like to try OpenShell or other tricks to make Win11 look more
> like Win10 to placate his MIL, then go for it, but be prepared the MIL
> may complain she didn't get what she wanted. Despite your aspirations
> for Win11, the MIL has already dictated she wants Win10. Therein lies
> the major filter on what refurb the OP will get. You might try to get
> more than what the customer wants, but don't ignore what they want.
>
:)
This is one where the 'tough love' questions should be asked(to the MIL)

1. Are you planning on living more than 2 yrs.
2. If so do you want to continue to use an unsupported o/s on a
reburbished Windows 10 device for everything you do on the
device(internet, email).
3. If so, do you wish to no longer receive security updates for Windows
10 on a reburbished device since they will cease in Oct 2025.
4. If so, knowing the details and understanding of the answers to 1,
2,and 3 do you wish a refurbished device that can not be upgraded to
Win11 or a refurbished Win10 device that can be upgraded(freely with no
additional cost) to Windows 11 after #2 and #3 become reality.
5. Do you want a 'desktop' device that will and can only be accessed in
one single fixed location in your residence.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]
> Also remember the audience: the OP looking to upgrade the hardware for
> his 80-year old MIL. He's looking at refurbs to save on cost. He's not
> going to save much if he buys a Win10 setup, and then have to buy a
> Win11 license. A lot more refurbs come with Win10, and fewer with
> Win11. Companies haven't yet en masse disposed of their leased
> workstations running Win11.

I agree with your later (snipped) point that a Win11-*capable* (*not*
one which *comes with* Win11) refurb is probably more costly than a
non-Win11-capable Win10 refurb, but AFAIK your argument of needing a
Win11 license is not correct, because AFAIK the upgrade from Win10 to
Win11 is free (I think Winston just confirmed this).

[...]

> If the OP can afford a higher priced Win11 refurb, like another $100,
> and would like to try OpenShell or other tricks to make Win11 look more
> like Win10 to placate his MIL,

You've made this argument before, but I don't think 'OpenShell'
(actually 'Open-Shell Menu') is going to help ("to make Win11 look more
like Win10").

The Open-Shell Menu looks not like the stock Win10 Start Menu at all,
so I don't see how using Open-Shell Menu on Win11 would help.

Of course Open-Shell Menu on Win11 looks quite the same as Open-Shell
Menu on Win10, but that's not the scenario here. At least I don't think
sticks has said that his MIL uses Open-Shell Menu on Win10.

> but be prepared the MIL
> may complain she didn't get what she wanted. Despite your aspirations
> for Win11, the MIL has already dictated she wants Win10. Therein lies
> the major filter on what refurb the OP will get. You might try to get
> more than what the customer wants, but don't ignore what they want.

winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is one where the 'tough love' questions should be asked(to the
> MIL)

Yeah, you want to do what you think is best for others, but forcing your
choices on them isn't love, just domination. Personally I would see if
a Win11 refurb was within the pocket of the OP, and see if OpenShell
might placate her sufficiently to get her moved to a newer version of
the OS. She doesn't want to endure another learning curve, and wants
familiarity. She wants a rental car where she can get it and drive
instead of having to learn a whole different driving system. The OP is
constrained by the user's requirements to get a Win10 box, but maybe
making a Win11 box look like a Win10 would be enough.

> 1. Are you planning on living more than 2 yrs.

I plan on using Win10 up until around 2029 if not until 2032 despite
loss of security updates. However, the expertise on Windows between the
OP's MIL and myself are far different. I don't expect what I can do for
what the MIL can do even with the assist of her SIL.

> 2. If so do you want to continue to use an unsupported o/s on a
> reburbished Windows 10 device for everything you do on the
> device(internet, email).

Security is relative. Too much on a general-purpose OS makes it
difficult if not impossible to use. Too much hand holding means the
user doesn't learn to walk, and the aged often don't like to be reminded
they are unstable. They want help, not necessarily coddling.

> 3. If so, do you wish to no longer receive security updates for
> Windows 10 on a reburbished device since they will cease in Oct 2025.

Not having a security update does not mandate you will be impacted by
its vulnerability. I've been using anti-malware for decades. Never
been hit yet, not even a peep from the AV software (except for PUPS
which were my choice to install, and overrode the AV's over
protectiveness). For the OP, seems his MIL installs anything that
glitters, so *she* is the primary risk on whatever computer she uses.

The OP says he will save an image backup after getting the refurb to
allow restoring to that state. Having to restore months or years away
back to an install-time image means losing every change made since along
with any data (likely the MIL, or even the OP, won't save data files on
a different partition [on a different drive] than for the OS and apps).
Seems the OP should schedule backups at regular intervals that require
no user intervention. The OP could restore to something recent instead
of restoring to an ancient image.

> 4. If so, knowing the details and understanding of the answers to 1,
> 2,and 3 do you wish a refurbished device that can not be upgraded to
> Win11 or a refurbished Win10 device that can be upgraded(freely with no
> additional cost) to Windows 11 after #2 and #3 become reality.

Depending on the cost of the refurb, discarding it after 6 to 10 years
of use might be trivial. Don't bother if the hardware cannot run Win11.
Get another refurb with whatever is the latest version of Windows at
that time. I plan my builds to last about 8 years, but that is not
measure from when an OS got released. After that, I do another build
with what is available then *if* I get some bang-for-the-buck. I stayed
with Windows XP for 6 years past when Windows 7 got released (and
completely ignored Windows Vista). I didn't switch to Windows 10 until
4 years until after it got released. Windows 11 is such a dud that I
will wait to see what Microsoft does for Windows 12.

> 5. Do you want a 'desktop' device that will and can only be accessed in
> one single fixed location in your residence.

The OP's MIL had a desktop, it broke, she went to a laptop, and she
okays a replacement that is a desktop. From what I can glean from the
OP, his MIL used the laptop as a replacement, because she thought it was
hip to go to a laptop. The laptop wasn't mobile. It just stayed at her
house all the time it was used. The OP never mentions his MIL wants a
portable computer, but then he could look at putting Win11 on it
sometime later, if the drivers are available. My guess is she knows
what she wants regarding portability. The OP said she doesn't even have
a smartphone, so mobile computing isn't much important to her.

If someone wants a newer used blue car with the steering wheel on the
left and doesn't care about air bags, but you deliver a red car with the
steering wheel on the right with air bags all around, you didn't give
them what they wanted. However, OpenShell might give them a steering
wheel on the left with the underlying car having better safety features
although you hope the customer will accept red over blue. The MIL wants
a better Win10 computer, not something else you, I, and OP might think
is better for her.

With my aunt, she didn't a gnat's fart about the OS. It was when her
old programs had newer versions with features she wanted but required a
newer version of Windows got her to switch to a newer OS. It was the
apps that propelled her to get a new OS, not because the OS was somehow
better that was nebulous to her versus the reality of apps dropping
support for the old OS. A user may have an old non-smart TV, and they
want a larger one, but don't care about all the fancy web-centric
features they'll never use - until they decide they want to play movies
on the dumb TV from optical media, or from USB drives. They can keep
using the old TV, and add a media player (e.g., Roku), or get a smart
TV. Well, Roku still sells well, so a lot of users are opting to
upgrade their existing hardware instead buying replacement hardware.
What they want to do has changed, but don't want to completely eradicate
their current setup. You can tout all the advantages of Win11 over
Win10 to users, but unless there is a need for those users to move then
they choose not to move. If the apps they use have upgrades with
features they want, but only on a newer OS, yeah, that'll prod them to
move to a new OS.

It's what they can do with the OS that is important to them, not what
the OS does by itself. A computer with just the OS doesn't have much
value. An empty room isn't of much use until you put furniture in it.
Most residents don't care if wood or steel studs were used to build the
walls.

The biggest restaint the OP has is the Win10 requirement by his MIL. He
might foist Win11 on her by using OpenShell, Start11, or other GUI
adapters. Maybe not. If he goes Win11, and tweaks it to look like
Win10, he might find later his MIL doesn't like what he gave her, and
wants Win10 at which point he'll have to get a Win10 install image and
license to wipe out what he did with Win11 before.

VanguardLH wrote on 1/4/24 10:50 AM:

> Windows 11 is such a dud that I
> will wait to see what Microsoft does for Windows 12.

Windows 12 - like Office - CTR subscription, MSA required to activate and
use, limited features without MSA sign on.

- while the above might not happen for '12', the direction seems more
than plausible

>
>> 5. Do you want a 'desktop' device that will and can only be accessed in
>> one single fixed location in your residence.
>
> The OP's MIL had a desktop, it broke, she went to a laptop, and she
> okays a replacement that is a desktop. From what I can glean from the
> OP, his MIL used the laptop as a replacement, because she thought it was
> hip to go to a laptop. The laptop wasn't mobile. It just stayed at her
> house all the time it was used. The OP never mentions his MIL wants a
> portable computer, but then he could look at putting Win11 on it
> sometime later, if the drivers are available. My guess is she knows
> what she wants regarding portability. The OP said she doesn't even have
> a smartphone, so mobile computing isn't much important to her.

Uh...not portable outside of the residence(house), movable within the
house.
>

>
> The biggest restaint the OP has is the Win10 requirement by his MIL.

That's why those tough love questions need to be asked and all parties
understand the ramifications for now and in the future.
A reburb Win10 capable of freely upgrading to Win11 or a Win11
as-shipped or reburbed device still make the most sense.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> I agree with your later (snipped) point that a Win11-*capable* (*not*
> one which *comes with* Win11) refurb is probably more costly than a
> non-Win11-capable Win10 refurb, but AFAIK your argument of needing a
> Win11 license is not correct, because AFAIK the upgrade from Win10 to
> Win11 is free (I think Winston just confirmed this).

Can the OP freely move from Win11 to Win10 should his MIL complain she
didn't get the Win10 she wanted? Moving forward might be free. Does
Microsoft still offer the downgrade option for free?

> The Open-Shell Menu looks not like the stock Win10 Start Menu at all,
> so I don't see how using Open-Shell Menu on Win11 would help.

I've never used GUI shells. I figure if I get a particular OS version
then its GUI is with what I want to become familiar. I'm used to
learning curves, so no big deal for me. However, to help others I want
to be familiar with the native GUI of that version of the OS, not try to
interpolate between a fixed-up GUI and the default GUI.

https://www.dedoimedo.com/images/computers-years/2021-1/open-shell-win11-icon.png
https://www.dedoimedo.com/images/computers-years/2021-1/open-shell-win11-menu-color.png

Nope, none of those selections look like the Win10 Start menu. Looks
like they more simulate the Win7 or WinXP cascading Start menus, and no
tiles panel. I didn't see options to show the tiles panel. I don't
know if the Skins option modifies the layout to look more like Win10.
Guess OpenShell harkens back to its ancestral ClassShell which was to
give an old look to the Start menu, but tiles aren't considered
"classic". I did see the Fluent Metro skin might add tiles
(https://github.com/bonzibudd/Fluent-Metro).

So much for trying to use OpenShell make Win11 look like Win10. Start10
looks like it has a Tiles view mode. Their Start menu config options
have a "Windows 10 style" that looks to have a tile panel. OpenShell
(just like ClassicShell) is FOSS, but Start11 costs $7 (per device).
It's parent product, I believe, is ObjectDesktop ($35), or ObjectDesktop
includes Start11 along without other components; however, I dislike
subscriptionware (for ObjectDeskopt - looks like Start11 is perpetual).

Since the OP's MIL requires Win10, guess the safest choice for the OP is
going with Win10 on his MIL's new computer.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
> > I agree with your later (snipped) point that a Win11-*capable* (*not*
> > one which *comes with* Win11) refurb is probably more costly than a
> > non-Win11-capable Win10 refurb, but AFAIK your argument of needing a
> > Win11 license is not correct, because AFAIK the upgrade from Win10 to
> > Win11 is free (I think Winston just confirmed this).
>
> Can the OP freely move from Win11 to Win10 should his MIL complain she
> didn't get the Win10 she wanted? Moving forward might be free. Does
> Microsoft still offer the downgrade option for free?

I don't know. Getting install media used to be simple/possible, but
the requirements seemi to have changed lately. Probably Winston can
tell. Anyway, Win11 to Win10 wasn't your argument, but Win10 to Win11.

> > The Open-Shell Menu looks not like the stock Win10 Start Menu at all,
> > so I don't see how using Open-Shell Menu on Win11 would help.
>
> I've never used GUI shells. I figure if I get a particular OS version
> then its GUI is with what I want to become familiar. I'm used to
> learning curves, so no big deal for me. However, to help others I want
> to be familiar with the native GUI of that version of the OS, not try to
> interpolate between a fixed-up GUI and the default GUI.
>
> https://www.dedoimedo.com/images/computers-years/2021-1/open-shell-win11-icon.png
> https://www.dedoimedo.com/images/computers-years/2021-1/open-shell-win11-menu-color.png
>
> Nope, none of those selections look like the Win10 Start menu. Looks
> like they more simulate the Win7 or WinXP cascading Start menus, and no
> tiles panel.

Exactly, so I don't see why you thought Open-Shell Menu would be a
suitable replacement for the stock Windows 10 Start Menu.

> I didn't see options to show the tiles panel. I don't
> know if the Skins option modifies the layout to look more like Win10.
> Guess OpenShell harkens back to its ancestral ClassShell which was to
> give an old look to the Start menu, but tiles aren't considered
> "classic". I did see the Fluent Metro skin might add tiles
> (https://github.com/bonzibudd/Fluent-Metro).

As the github page says, Fluent-Metro is *for* Windows 10, so it's
unlikely to be similar to the stock Windows 10 Start Menu. What would be
the point?

> So much for trying to use OpenShell make Win11 look like Win10. Start10
> looks like it has a Tiles view mode. Their Start menu config options
> have a "Windows 10 style" that looks to have a tile panel. OpenShell
> (just like ClassicShell) is FOSS, but Start11 costs $7 (per device).
> It's parent product, I believe, is ObjectDesktop ($35), or ObjectDesktop
> includes Start11 along without other components; however, I dislike
> subscriptionware (for ObjectDeskopt - looks like Start11 is perpetual).

It's unlikely that any of these are closely similar to the stock
Windows 10 Start Menu, so they are no solution for sticks' MIL.

> Since the OP's MIL requires Win10, guess the safest choice for the OP is
> going with Win10 on his MIL's new computer.

On 1/3/2024 8:32 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

Sorry for the delay and lag. I been a little under the weather with
some kind of bug.

>> I don't recall the make and model off hand, but it is not accessible
>> from any of the outside covers. You have to take it all apart, and the
>> battery looks like a couple AA batteries wrapped together. I suppose
>> the ones we're used to seeing are basically the same thing, only they
>> get put in a case and are accessible. It was the first time I had seen
>> one like that.
>
> A couple AA batteries strapped together regardless of chemistry would
> not be sufficient to power a laptop when mobile. Maybe you were looking
> at the CMOS battery.

Oh, it was probably more than a "couple", but it was some time ago, and
I really can't remember. It doesn't really matter since she'll be
getting something else, but once i get the "new one" up and running I'll
take it apart and take a look.

>> That's how I used to do it. I think they used to sell "bare bones"
>> setups that had a motherboard and processor, and you could add on from
>> there. I saw a little while back that method has gotten pretty
>> expensive if you're trying to stay cutting edge. IMO, the values isn't
>> there anymore and you can't beat the savings from what the big guys can
>> do because of volume.

--snip--

>> I checked out amazon and they too seem to have quite a bit of these
>> refurbs. Actually, they seem to have the best prices too. Still looking.
>
> Did you include the shipping cost from Amazon? Some folks pay to
> subscribe to the Prime service tier, but I don't order enough from them
> to qualify the expense of Prime ($15/mo) against shipping for the few
> times per years I place orders with them. There is a checkbox "Free
> shipping by Amazon", but, just like with Prime, they've already added
> shipping cost, so it's the pretense of free shipping.

My mailman used to joke about how he delivered packages every day to my
house. Yes, the wife has Prime, and does lots of on-line shopping.
Course, she does lots of brick and mortar too. Just loves to shop I
guess.

> You could visit a local shop or their web site to see what they have for
> refurbs, note which make and models you like, check if Amazon has the
> same or equivalent refurb, and perhaps negotiate with the local store to
> get close to the Amazon price.

I have one local shop I'm gonna check first, but other than that I don't
see much in the way of local shops that do refurbs. I kinda live in the
boonies I guess.

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On 1/4/2024 3:08 AM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote on 1/3/24 8:17 PM:
>> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Based on your reasoning to continue to use Win10 post EOL support, you
>>> would let your near 80 yr old MIL operate a device without maximum
>>> available security.
>>
>> Yep.  I don't hide behind the security card as an excuse to get a newer
>> version of Windows that *promises* more nebulous security (whether I
>> want it or not).  And, of course, we users have to hope Microsoft
>> doesn't yet come out with another update whether for the OS or drivers
>> that isn't corruptive as malware.
>>
>> Also remember the audience: the OP looking to upgrade the hardware for
>> his 80-year old MIL.  He's looking at refurbs to save on cost.  He's not
>> going to save much if he buys a Win10 setup, and then have to buy a
>> Win11 license.  A lot more refurbs come with Win10, and fewer with
>> Win11.  Companies haven't yet en masse disposed of their leased
>> workstations running Win11.
>>
>> Win10 can be used on a computer with TPM2.  Win11 ups the hardware
>> requirement, so those refurbs may not qualify.
>>
>> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enable-tpm-2-0-on-your-pc-1fd5a332-360d-4f46-a1e7-ae6b0c90645c
>> Those without a TPM module may still work with Windows 11 if their BIOS
>> has the Intel PTT (Platform Trust Technology) firmware to perform the
>> functions of the TPM module.  However, that means the OP will have to
>> delve into each candidate refurb to see it is has a TPM module (and it
>> is installed), or has the Intel PTT firmware in the BIOS.
>>
>> CPU requirements are also upped for Windows 11.  Those Win10 refurbs
>> that let the OP reduce cost may not qualify for Win11.  It will be the
>> OP that decides if the higher cost of Win11 refurbs is of value over a
>> lower cost Win10 refurb.
>>
>> If the OP can afford a higher priced Win11 refurb, like another $100,
>> and would like to try OpenShell or other tricks to make Win11 look more
>> like Win10 to placate his MIL, then go for it, but be prepared the MIL
>> may complain she didn't get what she wanted.  Despite your aspirations
>> for Win11, the MIL has already dictated she wants Win10.  Therein lies
>> the major filter on what refurb the OP will get.  You might try to get
>> more than what the customer wants, but don't ignore what they want.

To be fair, the laptop being replaced was itself a replacement from an
old XP system. They kept complaining about various things and problems
they were having. It took some time to explain that their XP system was
unable to do lots of things and run software in the current environment.
It was like pulling teeth to get them on a newer version. The laptop
was originally Win7 and they used that for years. It was probably
around two years ago I convinced them to upgrade to win 10. Same
process of explaining why I thought the change would be good for them
and getting that blank stare in return. It took me quite some time
myself to upgrade to win 10. I found most of the complaints without
merit, and figured they could handle the switch.

If I had to, I could probably get a box with 11 on it and they would
never even know it. I'm sure I could get it set up to do what they
usually do that it would be close enough the MIL would be happy. It's
not a "die on this hill" kind of thing. But in dealing with elderly,
those that have to do it will tell you to pick the battles you wish to
have wisely.

> :)
> This is one where the 'tough love' questions should be asked(to the MIL)
>
> 1. Are you planning on living more than 2 yrs.

Ha! I really can't see myself asking that.

> 2. If so do you want to continue to use an unsupported o/s on a
> reburbished Windows 10 device for everything you do on the
> device(internet, email).
> 3. If so, do you wish to no longer receive security updates for Windows
> 10 on a reburbished device since they will cease in Oct 2025.

I kind of agree with Vanguard and my personal experience on this as far
as it's importance and necessity of upgrading.

> 4. If so, knowing the details and understanding of the answers to 1,
> 2,and 3 do you wish a refurbished device that can not be upgraded to
> Win11 or a refurbished Win10 device that can be upgraded(freely with no
> additional cost) to Windows 11 after #2 and #3 become reality.

I do have to learn what is the difference in requirements. My own
laptop running windows 10 says it is unable to run windows 11. Yet, I
have an identical drive I can put in that has Windows 11 on it. I've
read some of the reasons, but haven't paid enough attention. I'll work
on that in the future. However, you have convinced me to look into it
and spending a little more for the possibility of being able to upgrade
does make some sense. The little bit of extra $$ might be worth it.
Thanks for that.

> 5. Do you want a 'desktop' device that will and can only be accessed in
> one single fixed location in your residence.

Both her and the FIL have laptops that have never moved in 10 years.
They each have their own spot and go there. They don't and never will
take them anywhere, or even move them in the house. Silly to have
bought laptops in the first place as they have room for desktops. That
was an example of a fight I wasn't willing to have.

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On 1/4/2024 11:50 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> The OP says he will save an image backup after getting the refurb to
> allow restoring to that state. Having to restore months or years away
> back to an install-time image means losing every change made since along
> with any data (likely the MIL, or even the OP, won't save data files on
> a different partition [on a different drive] than for the OS and apps).
> Seems the OP should schedule backups at regular intervals that require
> no user intervention. The OP could restore to something recent instead
> of restoring to an ancient image.

This interests me. Some of the refurbed boxes I've seen come with 256GB
or 512GB SSD drives along with 1T to 3T spinning drives. I could do
monthly macrium image backups on the big drive, and it would probably be
the only thing ever put on them. I've got them on IMAP mail, they use
office 365, and are using firefox accounts, so none of those apps would
be affected by re-imaging. Good thought.

--snip--

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Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> I don't know. Getting install media used to be simple/possible, but
> the requirements seemi to have changed lately. Probably Winston can
> tell. Anyway, Win11 to Win10 wasn't your argument, but Win10 to Win11.

Downgrading from Win11 to Win10 was one of the options I noted before.
I mentioned seeing if OpenShell might salve her need for the Win10 GUI
(but OpenShell apparently does not give a Win10 Start menu on Win11).
"If she complained about Windows 11 underneath, you could smash the
setup with a fresh install of Windows 10. ...". Get the Win11 refurb,
see if it can be tweaked enough (maybe Start11 would work), and see if
she'll migrate. If not, downgrade to Win10. Since it is unlikely there
is a free Win10 downgrade from Win11, just smash the setup with a fresh
install of Win10. I gave the link for the Win10 media creation tool,
but the OP will need a license, too.

Doesn't the Win10 install still run indefinitely as a trial meaning you
can continue to use a non-expiring trial? Used to be that way, but
you'd get a desktop watermark (there's a workaround) and some admin
features were missing (but doesn't sound like the MIL would care).

> Exactly, so I don't see why you thought Open-Shell Menu would be a
> suitable replacement for the stock Windows 10 Start Menu.

From other users extoling it as a Start menu alternative.

> It's unlikely that any of these are closely similar to the stock
> Windows 10 Start Menu, so they are no solution for sticks' MIL.

Might not be an exact match, but only the MIL could state if exact is a
requirement. She may not even like the Win10 Start menu, and prefer the
Win7 version, and one of the reasons OpenShell and Start10/11 are
popular. Consumers buy generic brand food, too.

The OP knows best just what his MIL wants, and what she would accept.
With enough tweaks to Win11, she might even like Win11. After all, she
had to adapt to the change to the Win10 Start menu.

No idea if the OP explored speeding up the MIL's laptop. She'd keep her
hardware, and Win10, but get faster responsiveness. The laptop would
feel snappy again.
- Replace HDD with an SSD. Repurpose the HDD into a USB enclosure to
add more storage, like for data files to move off the OS/app
partition.
- Up to max system RAM. Might have to add more SODIMMs, or replace the
ones already installed.
- Startup program maintenance (the OP's sysadmin duty to his MIL).
- Disable superfluous services, like Indexing to replace with Search
Everything, Cortana, and any other service for hardware or OS Pro
features she doesn't have or never use.
- Turn off lots of glitzy Windows features: sysdm.cpl -> Advanced ->
Performance, pick just a few of the really wanted features, or select
"Adjust for best performance" which turns them all off.
- Attach a real monitor to the laptop instead of using the laptop's
screen.
- Use a USB-attached real keyboard instead of the crappy laptop
keyboard.
- Use a USB-attached mouse instead of the crappy touchpad.
- If USB ports are scarce, get an A/C powered USB hub to eliminate
having to share 1 host USB port's power among all USB devices.
After all the upgrades and tweaks, she might like her old laptop again,
and she'd still be on Win10 that she wants.

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> To be fair, the laptop being replaced was itself a replacement from an
> old XP system. They kept complaining about various things and
> problems they were having. It took some time to explain that their
> XP system was unable to do lots of things and run software in the
> current environment. It was like pulling teeth to get them on a newer
> version. The laptop was originally Win7 and they used that for
> years. It was probably around two years ago I convinced them to
> upgrade to win 10. Same process of explaining why I thought the
> change would be good for them and getting that blank stare in return.
> It took me quite some time myself to upgrade to win 10. I found
> most of the complaints without merit, and figured they could handle
> the switch.

When you saturate the market, you can invigorate sales only by adding
more features. I remember when the VCR sales stalled, because everyone
that wanted one already had one. They didn't break down often enough to
cover business costs to run a manufacturing plant for them. So, they
started adding more features: scheduled recording, slo-mo and
frame-by-frame viewing, dual-tape or tape+disc machines, front load
instead of top load, and so on. Sales were based on adding gimmicks
beyond the basic features. Marketing tries to convince consumers they
just must have the added non-essentials they claim are essential.

But do you, er, does the MIL really need more than the laptop? See my
reply to Frank on what you could do to speed up the laptop, and improve
ergonomics with a better monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Is the old
laptop really the problem, or that it never got upgrades and tweaks to
improve responsiveness, and better user experience with the I/O devices?

On 1/4/2024 5:53 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> To be fair, the laptop being replaced was itself a replacement from an
>> old XP system. They kept complaining about various things and
>> problems they were having. It took some time to explain that their
>> XP system was unable to do lots of things and run software in the
>> current environment. It was like pulling teeth to get them on a newer
>> version. The laptop was originally Win7 and they used that for
>> years. It was probably around two years ago I convinced them to
>> upgrade to win 10. Same process of explaining why I thought the
>> change would be good for them and getting that blank stare in return.
>> It took me quite some time myself to upgrade to win 10. I found
>> most of the complaints without merit, and figured they could handle
>> the switch.
>
> When you saturate the market, you can invigorate sales only by adding
> more features. I remember when the VCR sales stalled, because everyone
> that wanted one already had one. They didn't break down often enough to
> cover business costs to run a manufacturing plant for them. So, they
> started adding more features: scheduled recording, slo-mo and
> frame-by-frame viewing, dual-tape or tape+disc machines, front load
> instead of top load, and so on. Sales were based on adding gimmicks
> beyond the basic features. Marketing tries to convince consumers they
> just must have the added non-essentials they claim are essential.
>
> But do you, er, does the MIL really need more than the laptop? See my
> reply to Frank on what you could do to speed up the laptop, and improve
> ergonomics with a better monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Is the old
> laptop really the problem, or that it never got upgrades and tweaks to
> improve responsiveness, and better user experience with the I/O devices?

I appreciate the thought, but I am past trying to work on that laptop.
As long as she wants a desktop, in the end it will be much easier to
maintain. With what appears to be hardware related issues on her
current laptop starting to appear, even if they are from associated
software issues, I'm just gonna spend the money and get her something
newer. By the time I bought a battery, perhaps a motherboard, or even
spent the time trying to figure out why it takes so long to boot and the
wi-fi keeps dropping, I'd be better off just upgrading and be done with
it.

I for the most part agree that she'll be fine with win10 for years, even
after OS support ends. She just needs something she can use that is
reliable, probably runs most of the day, and I am familiar with. Win 10
on a desktop fits that bill. I am looking at some info on what is
required and then looking at those systems. Probably buy in the next
couple days if I get rid of this bug that's been slowing me down.

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VanguardLH wrote on 1/4/24 11:26 AM:
>
> Can the OP freely move from Win11 to Win10 should his MIL complain she
> didn't get the Win10 she wanted? Moving forward might be free. Does
> Microsoft still offer the downgrade option for free?

'Downgrade' in Microsoft/OEM lanugage is a term that solely applied to
OEM's devices with a pre-installed o/s(current) and the contractual right
to supply/provide the earlier o/s to the customer purchasing the device
with the current installed o/s.
Windows 8.1 was the last operating system that provided 'downgrade' rights.

I suspect your use of the term means can a device that is upgraded from
Win10 to Win11 be returned to Win11.
- Yes and multiple routes.
1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
imaging tool)
2. Clean install Win10 using the latest(or earlier created) created
media. Note: 23H2 and 22H2 are the current supported o/s. One can not
revert to Win10 from Win11 and retain programs installed on the device.
3. If the device is as-shipped with Win10(OEM) then resetting the device
to factory Wi10 condition using the OEM provided utilities(on the device,
provided with the device, and/or available from the OEM)

#1 is the best choice since it would retain installed software up to the
point in time the Win10 image was created.

--
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winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
> imaging tool)

I like that idea best for the OP.
- Buy a Win10 refurb that can run Win11 (e.g., make sure TPM2 or BIOS
Intel PTT are available).
- Capture the license string (several software tools) rather than rely
on a sticker on the case, but keep both if different.
- Save a full image backup of Win10 setup.
- Upgrade to Win11, apply all Windows updates, and driver updates.
- Save a full backup image of Win11 setup.
- Tweak Win11 to make more Win10-like; e.g., move Start menu to left of
Taskbar, use Start11 with Win10 theme w/Pinned panel that looks like
Tiles panel of Win10 Start menu; http://tinyurl.com/8jxara2z).
- See if the MIL will accept the tweaked Win11 setup.
- If not, restore to Win10 image.

However, unsure sticks wants to go through all that. Might try it
myself, though.

On 1/5/2024 2:11 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
>> imaging tool)
>
> I like that idea best for the OP.
> - Buy a Win10 refurb that can run Win11 (e.g., make sure TPM2 or BIOS
> Intel PTT are available).
> - Capture the license string (several software tools) rather than rely
> on a sticker on the case, but keep both if different.
> - Save a full image backup of Win10 setup.
> - Upgrade to Win11, apply all Windows updates, and driver updates.
> - Save a full backup image of Win11 setup.
> - Tweak Win11 to make more Win10-like; e.g., move Start menu to left of
> Taskbar, use Start11 with Win10 theme w/Pinned panel that looks like
> Tiles panel of Win10 Start menu; http://tinyurl.com/8jxara2z).
> - See if the MIL will accept the tweaked Win11 setup.
> - If not, restore to Win10 image.
>
> However, unsure sticks wants to go through all that. Might try it
> myself, though.

I do like it, actually. I've been looking at systems that can run 11,
but have 10 installed. It is a little work finding out if they qualify,
but doable.
The research I've done on 11 requirements, particularly TPM2, have
raised a question or two. It seems most things produced after 2016
would have it, though might not be setup in the bios. That narrows down
the list of possible systems. My laptop, for example, has a drive that
has 11 loaded, but I have not yet checked to see if it actually does get
updates to the operating system. One of the things I read was that the
registry tweak you can do to trick it into thinking it has TPM2 can
often lead to a loaded Windows 11, that fails to update. I shall have
to see about that.

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sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:

> On 1/5/2024 2:11 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
>>> imaging tool)
>>
>> I like that idea best for the OP.
>> - Buy a Win10 refurb that can run Win11 (e.g., make sure TPM2 or BIOS
>> Intel PTT are available).
>> - Capture the license string (several software tools) rather than rely
>> on a sticker on the case, but keep both if different.
>> - Save a full image backup of Win10 setup.
>> - Upgrade to Win11, apply all Windows updates, and driver updates.
>> - Save a full backup image of Win11 setup.
>> - Tweak Win11 to make more Win10-like; e.g., move Start menu to left of
>> Taskbar, use Start11 with Win10 theme w/Pinned panel that looks like
>> Tiles panel of Win10 Start menu; http://tinyurl.com/8jxara2z).
>> - See if the MIL will accept the tweaked Win11 setup.
>> - If not, restore to Win10 image.
>>
>> However, unsure sticks wants to go through all that. Might try it
>> myself, though.
>
> I do like it, actually. I've been looking at systems that can run 11,
> but have 10 installed. It is a little work finding out if they qualify,
> but doable.
> The research I've done on 11 requirements, particularly TPM2, have
> raised a question or two. It seems most things produced after 2016
> would have it, though might not be setup in the bios. That narrows down
> the list of possible systems. My laptop, for example, has a drive that
> has 11 loaded, but I have not yet checked to see if it actually does get
> updates to the operating system. One of the things I read was that the
> registry tweak you can do to trick it into thinking it has TPM2 can
> often lead to a loaded Windows 11, that fails to update. I shall have
> to see about that.

I don't know how many TPM-capable mobos (actually TPM2 for Win11)
actually use a TPM module (in a mobo slot), or rely on the Intel PTT
(Platform Trust Technology) code in the BIOS firmware. I can't see
issuing firmware calls to a TPM module would be faster than issuing the
same calls to the BIOS firmware. Maybe there is some benchmark
available to see if TPM code is faster than BIOS Intel PTT code. I know
some folks will state that software (firmware code) in the BIOS won't be
as fast as calls to hardware (TPM module), except it is still software
(firmware) instead the TPM module. Since it is Intel PTT code in the
BIOS, presumably that means you need an Intel chipset. AMD added it,
but calls it fTPM (firmware TPM). TPM here, or TPM there, what's the
diff?

My mobo has a slot for a TPM module, but it is vacant. Its BIOS also
has the Intel PTT code; however, I disable it in the BIOS. Not having
TPM capability eliminates getting notifications of a Win11 upgrade in my
Win10 setup. Easy way to shut off Win11 upgrade lures by WU.

Because there is no TPM module in the mobo slot, and I configured my
BIOT to disable Intel PTT, running tpm.msc (TPM Management Console)
shows "Compatible TPM cannot found". That's expect, but the tool will
let you know if you have a TPM module, or PTT in BIOS firmware enabled
(and an Intel CPU 4th+ gen), or fTPM in BIOS for an AMD CPU. Another
way to check is to run in a command shell with admin privs:

wmic /namespace:\\root\cimv2\security\microsofttpm path win32_tpm get * /format:textvaluelist.xsl

You can check the specs of a refurb, but that doesn't what you get will
have a TPM module or BIOS firmware to do TPM calls in the refurb.

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/36454-verify-trusted-platform-module-tpm-chip-windows-pc.html

I can't say if refurbs, or even new pre-builts, have Secure Boot enabled
in the BIOS/UEFI. I get the mobo myself to put into a build, and I do
*not* enable Secure Boot. The assumption is Secure Boot will not
interfere with programs, but I've ran into a situation where it does
(using a video capture too, jaksta Media Recorder, that requires me to
switch to a lesser method of video stream capture if Secure Boot is
enabled).

https://help.jaksta.com/support/solutions/articles/24000084862--this-computer-has-an-uefi-bios-with-secureboot-enabled-message
https://help.jaksta.com/support/solutions/articles/6000098511/thumbs_up
https://jaksta.com/support/windows/kb/guide/user-guide-jaksta-media-recorder-for-windows-v6-24000084846
Audio recording method:
Application: In the Application recording method, audio is directly
pulled out of running applications. The applications from which
JMR6 can grab audio are set via the Application configuration
Apps button. Windows 8 users will need to have Secure Boot
disabled in their UEFI BIOS for this recording method to work.
Device: When Device is selected, you will be able to choose a
hardware device connected to your computer, such as Line In, from
which to record audio.
Stereo Mix (What you hear): When Stereo Mix is chosen, all audio
from your computer will be recorded. A Buffer value will be
presented, and larger buffer values will reduce CPU load during
recording.

I wanted the Application recording method which meant Secure Boot had to
be disabled. Maybe it was how I guessed at disabling Secure Boot (the
mobo came with it disabled, I enabled it, hit the above errors, and
tried to disable it), or maybe Asrock's BIOS code was flawed. In any
case, enabling Secure Boot, and later disabling it, left me with an
unusable mobo that had to get replaced. Took a month working with
Asrock 3rd-tier tech support troubleshooting the problem, arranging an
exchange to get a new mobo, and restarting the hardware setup.

If Secure Boot comes enabled on a refurb or pre-built, leave it that
way. Typically when you acquire a mobo as a component, Secure Boot
disabled. In pre-builts, quite often if is enabled (might be the
default setup for pre-builts).

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-secure-boot

So, besides TPM (as hardware module in mobo slot, or Intel PTT or AMD
fTPM code in BIOS), you need to check if Secure Boot comes enabled in
the UEFI of the pre-built you buy.

As I recall from reading posts from others, Secure Boot must be disabled
if you want to multi-boot to different operating systems, like between
Windows and Linux. Or, perhaps Linux distros have caught up to embrace
Secure Boot, a UEFI feature, too.

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Secure_Boot
https://wiki.debian.org/SecureBoot

Another "feature" of UEFI (with Microsoft's involvement) is a program
can be specified in the UEFI to run on Windows startup. Despite
regulating any startup programs, or scanning for malware, there could
sit a call to a program in the UEFI. It could, for example, be used for
starting execution of tracking software (how the computer is used), or
for software inventorying on workstations. I've only seen it used by
companies that wanted to add and start: usage tracking, location,
anti-theft, or inventorying to their workstations. However, it could
also be used by malware, and I don't know if any AVs check for a program
load specified in the UEFI. As I recall, some mobos (Lenovo, Gigabyte,
ASUS) used this trick to run services or diagnostics on Windows startup.
The AV should catch malware for whatever the UEFI program load
specifies; that is, the .exe in UEFI usually calls some other program
that runs under Windows.

It is a "feature" only with UEFI. When Windows loads, it has a program
(C:\Windows\system32\wpbbin.exe) that runs to determine if the UEFI
specified a start program. The UEFI start program is in one of the ACPI
tables in the BIOS (I forget the ACPI table name)One trick is to rename
the loader program in Windows. This is called the UEFI Bootkit dubbed
BlackLotus.

You can Nirsoft's Firmware Tables View to see the ACPI tables in UEFI.
Looks for the "Windows Platform Binary Table" (WPBT). When I found out
about this, Nirsoft didn't show a WPBT table, but then I have many
options disabled in the BIOS. I also don't have the wpbbin.exe program
(that checks the UEFI for an .exe file to load).

Although pundits attempt to tout UEFI, Secure Boot, and other later
security measures as protecting users, there are UEFI Bootkits that
bypass all those measures, even Secure Boot, like BlackLotus.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/03/unkillable-uefi-malware-bypassing-secure-boot-enabled-by-unpatchable-windows-flaw/

Those are different beasts than the UEFI program load specified in an
ACPI table that Windows checks if it is defined, and if found will run
the UEFI-specified program. I'm noting the UEFI program load on Windows
launch because refurbs often are company workstations that were leased,
and then disposed of. Companies can employ tracking, location, or
inventorying sofware that the UEFI-specified program will start. You
won't find that method listed in, say, SysInternals' Autoruns. Windows
loads, checks the UEFI for the start program, and runs that program
under Windows. Since Secure Boot okays the load of Windows, and since
it is a program under Windows that loads the .exe in the UEFI, Secure
Boot won't catch this tactic.

VanguardLH wrote on 1/6/24 2:16 AM:
> sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/5/2024 2:11 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> winston <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1. Restore and earlier Win10 saved image(e.g. Macrium or other 3rd party
>>>> imaging tool)
>>>
>>> I like that idea best for the OP.
>>> - Buy a Win10 refurb that can run Win11 (e.g., make sure TPM2 or BIOS
>>> Intel PTT are available).
>>> - Capture the license string (several software tools) rather than rely
>>> on a sticker on the case, but keep both if different.
>>> - Save a full image backup of Win10 setup.
>>> - Upgrade to Win11, apply all Windows updates, and driver updates.
>>> - Save a full backup image of Win11 setup.
>>> - Tweak Win11 to make more Win10-like; e.g., move Start menu to left of
>>> Taskbar, use Start11 with Win10 theme w/Pinned panel that looks like
>>> Tiles panel of Win10 Start menu; http://tinyurl.com/8jxara2z).
>>> - See if the MIL will accept the tweaked Win11 setup.
>>> - If not, restore to Win10 image.
>>>
>>> However, unsure sticks wants to go through all that. Might try it
>>> myself, though.
>>
>> I do like it, actually. I've been looking at systems that can run 11,
>> but have 10 installed. It is a little work finding out if they qualify,
>> but doable.
>> The research I've done on 11 requirements, particularly TPM2, have
>> raised a question or two. It seems most things produced after 2016
>> would have it, though might not be setup in the bios. That narrows down
>> the list of possible systems. My laptop, for example, has a drive that
>> has 11 loaded, but I have not yet checked to see if it actually does get
>> updates to the operating system. One of the things I read was that the
>> registry tweak you can do to trick it into thinking it has TPM2 can
>> often lead to a loaded Windows 11, that fails to update. I shall have
>> to see about that.
>
>
> You can check the specs of a refurb, but that doesn't what you get will
> have a TPM module or BIOS firmware to do TPM calls in the refurb.
>
> https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/36454-verify-trusted-platform-module-tpm-chip-windows-pc.html
>

TPM
New OEM built machines since July 2016 for Win10 all required
implementation and enabling of TPM 2.0(default requirement)
cf.
<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-tpm>
"Since July 28, 2016, all new device models, lines or series (or if you
are updating the hardware configuration of a existing model, line or
series with a major update, such as CPU, graphic cards) must implement
and enable by default TPM 2.0 . The requirement to enable TPM 2.0 only
applies to the manufacturing of new devices."

All BYO Win10 devices(not new machines built by an OEM) are not
constrained by the above requirement.
- i.e. Some mobos may not have TPM modules or TPM chip slots. In many
cases, since the requirement started in July 2016 and applied at that
time to Win10 devices(Win11 was yet to be released) many mobo
manufacturers complied with the requirement and provided TPM 2.0 or
on-board TPM slots. UEFI/BIOS settings changes by the end-user may be
required to enable the chip to take advantage of its design intent
hardware based security functionality.

A reburb Win10 device upgraded to Win11 can go revert to Win10(#1 noted
earlier), just as well as go back to Win11(same method, saved image of
Win11 via Macrium or other 3rd party imaging tools)
- it might be(would be is more accurate) a good idea to use an
Microsoft Account when prompted during the Win11 upgrade(not necessary,
but suggested). Both Win10 and Win11 when activated are digitally
licensed via use of a Microsoft Account or a Local Account. The MSFT
account route provides one feature that a Local Account activation does
not - automatic reactivation via the 'Activation Troubleshooter' if major
hardware is changed(CPU, Mobo).
i.e. If a refurbished device later needs a new CPU or Mobo, a sole
Local Account may require some extra hoops to jump through to activate
Win10/11 post hardware changes(Call MSFT and explain). Mobo failures are
rare, but this is being mentioned to ensure full understanding if a
mobo/cpu replacement becomes necessary. Personally, I've only had one
single mobo failure in the last 35 yrs and none since Windows 95
release...thus that MSA might come in handy for those needing(it)!
cf.
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/reactivating-windows-after-a-hardware-change-2c0e962a-f04c-145b-6ead-fb3fc72b6665>
More detail can be found in the linked article. Read the appropriate
sections in the 'Reactivate Windows 11 after a hardware change'
specifically the 'Activation troubleshooter' content.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have finally
> talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the laptop she
> has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to look for
> something.
>
> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80 years
> old.  She just doesn't need that.
>
> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>
> TIA
>
>

If it hasn't been mentioned, give a look here:
https://discountelectronics.com/locations/

Their mail order is prompt, and the people are helpful. One year guarantee.

On 1/8/2024 7:07 AM, Karen wrote:
> On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>> look for something.
>>
>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>
>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>>
>
> If it hasn't been mentioned, give a look here:
> https://discountelectronics.com/locations/
>
> Their mail order is prompt, and the people are helpful. One year guarantee.

"Discount Electronics sells more used and refurbished computers than any
other company. We have thousands of Dell, HP and Lenovo desktops, both
used and refurbished. All of our desktop computer include a one-year
warranty direct from Discount Electronics. So, no matter whether you
call them refurbished or used, desktops, computers, towers or PCs, we
have you covered. No charge for shipping"

al <al@nospam.net> wrote:

> On 1/8/2024 7:07 AM, Karen wrote:
>> On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
>>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>>> look for something.
>>>
>>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>>
>>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>>
>>> TIA
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If it hasn't been mentioned, give a look here:
>> https://discountelectronics.com/locations/
>>
>> Their mail order is prompt, and the people are helpful. One year guarantee.
>
> "Discount Electronics sells more used and refurbished computers than any
> other company. We have thousands of Dell, HP and Lenovo desktops, both
> used and refurbished. All of our desktop computer include a one-year
> warranty direct from Discount Electronics. So, no matter whether you
> call them refurbished or used, desktops, computers, towers or PCs, we
> have you covered. No charge for shipping"

I used Google Maps and its street view to see what was at their store
locations.

4005 W Parmer Ln Suit D
Austin, TX 78757
Says "For lease". Street view Mar 2022.

1007 South Heatherwilde Blvd.
Suite 500
Pflugerville, TX 78660
That one shows a store in Google Maps street view Jan 2022.

1001 South IH-35
Round Rock, TX 78664
Can see a store sign atop a pole in Google Maps street view Mar 2022.

Went to https://www.bbb.org/us/tx to search on them. Could find them
for Austin, TX. The Pflugerville and Round Rock locations have an A+
rating.

Could the be Austin location is very new (moved in after Mar 2022), or
they closed (before Mar 2022). I didn't bother to call the Austin
location to see if someone answered.

Just remember if you get the product shipped, and have to use the
warranty, the computer is unavailable from the time you ship, when they
decide to fix or replace, and shipped back to you. With a local store,
it's the driving time to the store, but you might want to check if they
replace or always first try to repair, and how long repairs take.

Discount Electronics says all warranty work is performed in-house, so
they have something akin to Best Buy's Geek Squad. Read their warranty
page (https://discountelectronics.com/warranty-returns-shipping/). Not
everything you buy there has a 1-year warranty. Some are only 90 days.
They pay for return shipping within 14 days of the invoice date (so that
will be before whenever the shipped package arrives to you, and the time
for you to setup the computer and test it). Outside the 14 days, you
pay the return shipping costs.

I did not see where they say they pay shipping to you when you buy, or
after a warranty when they send the repaired/replacement product.

On 1/8/2024 6:07 AM, Karen wrote:
> On 1/1/2024 9:28 PM, sticks wrote:
>> I recall a few months ago someone posting some links to refurbished
>> systems for sale that I thought we're pretty reasonable.  I have
>> finally talked my MIL into getting a desktop system instead of the
>> laptop she has, and would appreciate any recommendations for where to
>> look for something.
>>
>> I will be doing the buying, and don't want a new system for her,
>> especially since she doesn't want to learn Windows 11 at almost 80
>> years old.  She just doesn't need that.
>>
>> Any reputable sites would be welcomed.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>>
>
> If it hasn't been mentioned, give a look here:
> https://discountelectronics.com/locations/
>
> Their mail order is prompt, and the people are helpful. One year guarantee.

Thanks. I did purchase over the weekend, but I looked at the site to
see how their prices were. They seem to be nearing twice as expensive
as some of the other places I was looking at on refurbs. Perhaps if you
are close and can physically go to the store you could bicker on price a
bit, but otherwise, they were simply too much higher than the other to
make a purchase on-line there.

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.