Am I correct that Win 10 22h2 will never get another major update like 23h2?

On 3/17/2024 11:21 PM, Big Al wrote:
> Am I correct that Win 10 22h2 will never get another major update like 23h2?

19045.xxx is it.

I would guess this is called Extended Support, where you get
security patches and Defender definitions, but that is about it.

The feature set should stop changing.

Paul

Big Al <Big_Al@invalid.com> wrote:

> Am I correct that Win 10 22h2 will never get another major update like
> 23h2?

2023 is already past. Next would be 24Hx or 25Hx, where x is which half
of the year for the release.

22H2 reaches end of servicing on October 14, 2025 which is also when
Windows 10 support ends. Microsoft is focused on Windows 11, and
Windows 12 is expected about when Windows 10 support ends. I'm skipping
Windows 11, and hoping 12 is one of their hops to a well-accepted
version (Windows NT: yes, Windows 2000: no, Windows XP: yes, Windows
Vista: no, Windows 7: yes, Windows 8: no, Windows 10: yes, Windows 11:
no, Windows 12: ???).

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/release-information

There have been times in the past for an unsupported version where a
security update is so important and also compatible with an older
version that Microsoft will issue a security update that includes an
older version of Windows. An unusual event.

On 3/17/24 20:54, VanguardLH wrote:
> and
> Windows 12 is expected about when Windows 10 support ends

Any rumors about 12 yet? Will they be sticking
with the Chromebook UI? Are they going to artificially
break a bunch old programs?

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Windows 12 is expected about when Windows 10 support ends
>
> Any rumors about 12 yet?

Might be released soon than when support ends for Windows 10. Some
sources are expecting a release sometime in late 2024.

Just what you can find online. There's a lot of garbage out there.
There's even one joker professing to supply Windows 12, and another that
claims he know what it will look like, and supplies a Youtube video, but
it's all guesswork.

> Will they be sticking with the Chromebook UI?

With Windows 8, they learned a tile-only UI was unacceptable, and
returned the Start menu. No idea what they plan, if anything, to revert
in Windows 12. You might be stuck with 3rd-party solutions to revert
the UI back to not only a recognizable one, but also a usable one.

Back in the Win9x days, you could substitute your own choice of desktop
manager. With WinNT, Microsoft didn't bring that forward.

While I've been able to disable Intel PTT (Platform Trust Technology)
that uses BIOS firmware instead of a separate TPM module, and still run
Windows 10, Windows Update says my hardware is insufficient to update to
Windows 11. That's what I want: a simple BIOS setting that kills any
suggestion or lure to move to Windows 11. Windows 12 will probably also
require TPM or Intel PTT (or whatever AMD calls their version).

Looks like Microsoft will shove in more AI. In Windows 10, we suffered
with Cortana, but it could be removed. In Windows 11, more AI crap with
Copilot w/Bing coordination in Edge along with an MS account. In
Windows 12, we'll be more fighting the OS to do what we want instead of
what Microsoft says we should do.

RAM requirement will likely go up. Microsoft wants to waste more and
more of it with each Windows version. Microsoft wants 12 to be an AI
platform. As with embedded version of Windows used in devices, MS
should really gives us a much more detailed of what is installed, or
not, from the start, and make it easy to change our decision later. To
support its Copilot AI assistant in Win12, looks like you need 16 GB
minimum. Win10 was 1 GB, and Win11 was 4 GB.

We are in control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCcdr4O-3gE

Meteor Lake CPUs run about 34 TOPS (trillion operations per second), but
are ineligible for AI PCs. Upcoming Lunar Lake CPUs might be fast
enough for AI PCs. The AMD Zen 4 CPUs at 39 TOPS are also ineligible.
Strix Point Zen 5 APUs might be fast enough. Qualcomm Snapdragon X
Elite is over 45 TOPS, so just barely eligible.

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3711262/windows-12-and-the-coming-ai-chip-war.html

With the quadruple RAM and high CPU requirements (if you're stuck
without the ability to disable all the AI crap), Windows 12 will be a
big dig in users' pocket. Not looking good at the moment for me to
bother with Windows 12.

When they add enough AI, I won't have to get out of bed to do my job.

> Are they going to artificially break a bunch old programs?

They can always use WoW (Windows on Windows) for emulation to support
old programs, but support likely will only go back a version or two.
WoW32 supported 16-bit programs, and WoW64 supported 32-bit programs.
UWP (Universal Windows Platform) apps will likely run well. Not sure
what type of programs you are concerned.

Microsoft promised Windows 11 would get the Android emulator layer
(Windows Subsystem for Android). They reneged: sunsetted in Mar 2024.
Only Microsoft knows what they might offer for cross-platform emulation
in Windows 12, or if they'll more integrate Hyper-V for integration of
other-platform code to look like it's running natively instead of having
to switch.

I rarely adopt a new version of Windows until it has been released for
over 2 years. I'll let others do all the massive beta testing for MS.

On 3/17/24 23:23, VanguardLH wrote:
> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> Windows 12 is expected about when Windows 10 support ends
>>
>> Any rumors about 12 yet?
>
> Might be released soon than when support ends for Windows 10. Some
> sources are expecting a release sometime in late 2024.
>
> Just what you can find online. There's a lot of garbage out there.
> There's even one joker professing to supply Windows 12, and another that
> claims he know what it will look like, and supplies a Youtube video, but
> it's all guesswork.
>
>> Will they be sticking with the Chromebook UI?
>
> With Windows 8, they learned a tile-only UI was unacceptable, and
> returned the Start menu. No idea what they plan, if anything, to revert
> in Windows 12. You might be stuck with 3rd-party solutions to revert
> the UI back to not only a recognizable one, but also a usable one.
>
> Back in the Win9x days, you could substitute your own choice of desktop
> manager. With WinNT, Microsoft didn't bring that forward.
>
> While I've been able to disable Intel PTT (Platform Trust Technology)
> that uses BIOS firmware instead of a separate TPM module, and still run
> Windows 10, Windows Update says my hardware is insufficient to update to
> Windows 11. That's what I want: a simple BIOS setting that kills any
> suggestion or lure to move to Windows 11. Windows 12 will probably also
> require TPM or Intel PTT (or whatever AMD calls their version).
>
> Looks like Microsoft will shove in more AI. In Windows 10, we suffered
> with Cortana, but it could be removed. In Windows 11, more AI crap with
> Copilot w/Bing coordination in Edge along with an MS account. In
> Windows 12, we'll be more fighting the OS to do what we want instead of
> what Microsoft says we should do.
>
> RAM requirement will likely go up. Microsoft wants to waste more and
> more of it with each Windows version. Microsoft wants 12 to be an AI
> platform. As with embedded version of Windows used in devices, MS
> should really gives us a much more detailed of what is installed, or
> not, from the start, and make it easy to change our decision later. To
> support its Copilot AI assistant in Win12, looks like you need 16 GB
> minimum. Win10 was 1 GB, and Win11 was 4 GB.
>
> We are in control
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCcdr4O-3gE
>
> Meteor Lake CPUs run about 34 TOPS (trillion operations per second), but
> are ineligible for AI PCs. Upcoming Lunar Lake CPUs might be fast
> enough for AI PCs. The AMD Zen 4 CPUs at 39 TOPS are also ineligible.
> Strix Point Zen 5 APUs might be fast enough. Qualcomm Snapdragon X
> Elite is over 45 TOPS, so just barely eligible.
>
> https://www.computerworld.com/article/3711262/windows-12-and-the-coming-ai-chip-war.html
>
> With the quadruple RAM and high CPU requirements (if you're stuck
> without the ability to disable all the AI crap), Windows 12 will be a
> big dig in users' pocket. Not looking good at the moment for me to
> bother with Windows 12.
>
> When they add enough AI, I won't have to get out of bed to do my job.
>
>> Are they going to artificially break a bunch old programs?
>
> They can always use WoW (Windows on Windows) for emulation to support
> old programs, but support likely will only go back a version or two.
> WoW32 supported 16-bit programs, and WoW64 supported 32-bit programs.
> UWP (Universal Windows Platform) apps will likely run well. Not sure
> what type of programs you are concerned.
>
> Microsoft promised Windows 11 would get the Android emulator layer
> (Windows Subsystem for Android). They reneged: sunsetted in Mar 2024.
> Only Microsoft knows what they might offer for cross-platform emulation
> in Windows 12, or if they'll more integrate Hyper-V for integration of
> other-platform code to look like it's running natively instead of having
> to switch.
>
> I rarely adopt a new version of Windows until it has been released for
> over 2 years. I'll let others do all the massive beta testing for MS.

Thank you a for that! Very insightful.

I have xp, w7, w10, and w11 in virtual machines.
I will have to run w12 when my customers start getting
saddled with it.

I only use w11 for code I write for windows programs.

On 18/03/2024 03:54, VanguardLH wrote:
> Big Al <Big_Al@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Am I correct that Win 10 22h2 will never get another major update like
>> 23h2?
>
> 2023 is already past. Next would be 24Hx or 25Hx, where x is which half
> of the year for the release.
>
> 22H2 reaches end of servicing on October 14, 2025 which is also when
> Windows 10 support ends. Microsoft is focused on Windows 11, and
> Windows 12 is expected about when Windows 10 support ends. I'm skipping
> Windows 11, and hoping 12 is one of their hops to a well-accepted
> version (Windows NT: yes, Windows 2000: no, Windows XP: yes, Windows
> Vista: no, Windows 7: yes, Windows 8: no, Windows 10: yes, Windows 11:
> no, Windows 12: ???).
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/release-information
>
> There have been times in the past for an unsupported version where a
> security update is so important and also compatible with an older
> version that Microsoft will issue a security update that includes an
> older version of Windows. An unusual event.
>

Vista was fine if you doubled the specified minimum amount of RAM.
Can't remember if that was 512MB to 1GB or 1GB to 2GB

--
Regards
wasbit

On 3/18/24 02:23 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> We are in control
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCcdr4O-3gE
Loved that show!!
--
Linux Mint 21.3 Cinnamon 6.0.4
Al

On 3/18/2024 12:58 AM, T wrote:
> On 3/17/24 20:54, VanguardLH wrote:
>> and
>> Windows 12 is expected about when Windows 10 support ends
>
> Any rumors about 12 yet?  Will they be sticking
> with the Chromebook UI?  Are they going to artificially
> break a bunch old programs?

This isn't a particularly "normal" year for OSes.

*******

This is the future.

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/xdna.html

https://www.engadget.com/intel-unveils-core-ultra-its-first-chips-with-npus-for-ai-work-150021289.html

"While Intel is playing a bit of AI catch-up,"

[Intel seems to have a multiply-accumulate array]

Now, what can we build around that ?

It's cart-before-horse. A gold-rush. It's like a pair of $3500 VR Ski Googles.

The readiness of the players, may have something to do with the projected date-of-release.

*******

https://beebom.com/windows-12/

It doesn't mention the need for 16GB of RAM.

Think of the attack surface for the new hardware.
Malware for the NPU.

Paul

On 3/18/2024 5:42 AM, wasbit wrote:
> On 18/03/2024 03:54, VanguardLH wrote:
>> Big Al <Big_Al@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Am I correct that Win 10 22h2 will never get another major update like
>>> 23h2?
>>
>> 2023 is already past.  Next would be 24Hx or 25Hx, where x is which half
>> of the year for the release.
>>
>> 22H2 reaches end of servicing on October 14, 2025 which is also when
>> Windows 10 support ends.  Microsoft is focused on Windows 11, and
>> Windows 12 is expected about when Windows 10 support ends.  I'm skipping
>> Windows 11, and hoping 12 is one of their hops to a well-accepted
>> version (Windows NT: yes, Windows 2000: no, Windows XP: yes, Windows
>> Vista: no, Windows 7: yes, Windows 8: no, Windows 10: yes, Windows 11:
>> no, Windows 12: ???).
>>
>> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/release-information
>>
>> There have been times in the past for an unsupported version where a
>> security update is so important and also compatible with an older
>> version that Microsoft will issue a security update that includes an
>> older version of Windows.  An unusual event.
>>
>
> Vista was fine if you doubled the specified minimum amount of RAM.
> Can't remember if that was 512MB to 1GB or 1GB to 2GB

The RAM covenant seems to apply at launch, but during the life
of the OS there can be excursions outside the boundary. And yes,
people have got steamed about this (IT people in large companies).

The kernel and drivers use 250-350MB of RAM. They're supposed to be resident.

Things like Windows Update, can go way outside the bounds of reason
on RAM. At one point, Windows Update on Windows 7, was causing some
corporate PCs to "become useless" even though the machines had 2GB
of RAM. And the spec might have been a 1GB minimum or so.

While they don't update the RAM spec during the supported life
of an OS, users may notice that the thing just works better
with more RAM.

Vista had just about the poorest Windows Update support. And towards
the end of its life, you couldn't get Windows Update to work
(the menu would not paint with the updates needed). Today, the SHA2
signing issue has something to do with Vista no longer being patch-able.
You could use separately downloaded MSU files from catalog.update.microsoft.com ,
but forget installing optional items from Windows Update, because WIndows
Update won't come back.

Windows Update takes a minimum of 3 minutes to compute updates, and
that's when it is "well tuned". If you switch on your Vista SP2 right
now and do a Windows Update run, the time for it to paint the
menu is "infinity". Usually while this is happening, or just before,
there is RAM consumption while WU works out supersedence (the ability
of one patch to make another earlier patch, unnecessary).

Paul

Big Al wrote on 3/17/24 8:21 PM:
> Am I correct that Win 10 22h2 will never get another major update like 23h2?

Yes.
22H2 was(is) the last feature update for Windows 10.

Your use of the term major probably refers to 'feature' updates(where a
new version and new build numbers are deployed via the update)

- since a monthly security update could address dozens of new and older
yet to be patched vulnerabilities and all prior security patches...all
monthly security update could easily be classified as a major update.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

[snip]

> Vista had just about the poorest Windows Update support. And towards
> the end of its life, you couldn't get Windows Update to work
> (the menu would not paint with the updates needed). Today, the SHA2
> signing issue has something to do with Vista no longer being patch-able.
> You could use separately downloaded MSU files from catalog.update.microsoft.com ,
> but forget installing optional items from Windows Update, because WIndows
> Update won't come back.
IIRC, XP had problems updating too. 7 was OK.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Do you know that if all the Christians were laid end to end around the
world, three quarters of them would drown?"

On 18/03/2024 19:03, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> Vista had just about the poorest Windows Update support. And towards
>> the end of its life, you couldn't get Windows Update to work
>> (the menu would not paint with the updates needed). Today, the SHA2
>> signing issue has something to do with Vista no longer being patch-able.
>> You could use separately downloaded MSU files from
>> catalog.update.microsoft.com ,
>> but forget installing optional items from Windows Update, because
>> WIndows
>> Update won't come back.
> IIRC, XP had problems updating too. 7 was OK.
>
Who the fuck still uses Vista, XP or Windows 7 these days? move on and
get a life and stop spending money on drugs and alcohol.

"Lemon" <noreply@lemon.com> wrote

| Who the fuck still uses Vista, XP or Windows 7 these days? move on and
| get a life and stop spending money on drugs and alcohol.
|

I'm writing this on XP. It works wonderfully,
aside from outdated browsers. Tonight I expect
to be streaming on Win7. It also works fine, and
has up-to-date browsers. Win10 is now 9 years
old...

It really depends on what you're using your
computer for. The latest games? Then you need
the latest Windows. Aside from that, not so much.
I installed Chromium recently on Win10. It was over
600 MB -- about the same size as an entire Win98
OS. New isn't necessarily better.

Lemon <noreply@lemon.com> wrote:

> On 18/03/2024 19:03, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Vista had just about the poorest Windows Update support. And towards
>>> the end of its life, you couldn't get Windows Update to work
>>> (the menu would not paint with the updates needed). Today, the SHA2
>>> signing issue has something to do with Vista no longer being patch-able.
>>> You could use separately downloaded MSU files from
>>> catalog.update.microsoft.com ,
>>> but forget installing optional items from Windows Update, because
>>> WIndows
>>> Update won't come back.
>> IIRC, XP had problems updating too. 7 was OK.
>>
> Who the fuck still uses Vista, XP or Windows 7 these days? move on and
> get a life and stop spending money on drugs and alcohol.

God has spoken.

On 3/18/24 17:41, VanguardLH wrote:
> Lemon <noreply@lemon.com> wrote:
>
>> On 18/03/2024 19:03, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> Vista had just about the poorest Windows Update support. And towards
>>>> the end of its life, you couldn't get Windows Update to work
>>>> (the menu would not paint with the updates needed). Today, the SHA2
>>>> signing issue has something to do with Vista no longer being patch-able.
>>>> You could use separately downloaded MSU files from
>>>> catalog.update.microsoft.com ,
>>>> but forget installing optional items from Windows Update, because
>>>> WIndows
>>>> Update won't come back.
>>> IIRC, XP had problems updating too. 7 was OK.
>>>
>> Who the fuck still uses Vista, XP or Windows 7 these days? move on and
>> get a life and stop spending money on drugs and alcohol.
>
> God has spoken.

I tell my customers that computers are a tool, like a
hammer is a tool. The computer should be working for
you, not the other way around. M$ attitude seems
to be the other way around.

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 18:44:54 -0400, "Newyana2" <Newyana2@invalid.nospam>
wrote as underneath :

snip
>
> I'm writing this on XP. It works wonderfully,
>aside from outdated browsers.
>
Agreed! Tried MyPal68 ? Works pretty well on XP. IMHO. C+

"Charlie+" <charlie@xxx.net> wrote

| > I'm writing this on XP. It works wonderfully,
| >aside from outdated browsers.
| >
| Agreed! Tried MyPal68 ? Works pretty well on XP. IMHO. C+

I've read about that. The name is cloying and the
racoon icon is childish. But I was going to give it a try.
However, it's based on the Goanna rendering engine.
The problems I run into are coming from sites using the
latest javascript/JSON mess, that only the latest browsers
can parse. Even the latest Pale Moon on Win10 chokes on
some of them....

It's almost nostalgic. It reminds me of 2000 when
teenagers would make webpages jazzed up with Flash
and the page would announce something like:

"Best viewed in Internet Explorer 5.1.05438.21344."

Current sites might just as well say: "If you're not
using last week's Chrome then screw you."

There's also Supermium, which is billed as Chrome for
XP. It looks just like Chrome. Though the installer is
using post-XP API that breaks it on XP. That doesn't give
me a lot of confidence in the developer. And I consider
Chrom* to be crippled spyware, anyway, so I wouldn't
use it on any computer.

There is an Ungoogled Chromium, but not for XP. And
I'm hesitant to believe such a thing is really possible.
Chromium itself should have been ungoogled. SRWare Iron
was based on claims that it was ungoogled. The first thing
it tried to do when I tried it was to call home. The second
thing was to call Google.

So all things considered, I'm not hopeful that a product
will come out that allows me to respond to my dentist or
find test results from my doctor, or research appliances
at Home Depot. They all break on XP.

Anything that might
work would have to be based on recent Firefox rendering.
And Mozilla's only making about 1/2 $billion/year. A pitiful
shoestring budget. They're busy breaking prefs compatibility.
So we can hardly fault them for abandoning XP. :)

wasbit <wasbit@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 18/03/2024 03:54, VanguardLH wrote:
> > Big Al <Big_Al@invalid.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Am I correct that Win 10 22h2 will never get another major update like
> >> 23h2?
> >
> > 2023 is already past. Next would be 24Hx or 25Hx, where x is which half
> > of the year for the release.
> >
> > 22H2 reaches end of servicing on October 14, 2025 which is also when
> > Windows 10 support ends. Microsoft is focused on Windows 11, and
> > Windows 12 is expected about when Windows 10 support ends. I'm skipping
> > Windows 11, and hoping 12 is one of their hops to a well-accepted
> > version (Windows NT: yes, Windows 2000: no, Windows XP: yes, Windows
> > Vista: no, Windows 7: yes, Windows 8: no, Windows 10: yes, Windows 11:
> > no, Windows 12: ???).
> >
> > https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/release-information
> >
> > There have been times in the past for an unsupported version where a
> > security update is so important and also compatible with an older
> > version that Microsoft will issue a security update that includes an
> > older version of Windows. An unusual event.
>
> Vista was fine if you doubled the specified minimum amount of RAM.
> Can't remember if that was 512MB to 1GB or 1GB to 2GB

Yes, Vista was fine. Wikipedia indeed says "Minimum required 512MB",
but my laptop had 2GB and was bought in August 2007, while Vista was
released in January, so available systems had sensible amounts of RAM.

As to the Vista Windows Update problems Paul alludes to, my laptop
worked fine all the way to May 2015, more than 3 years after Mainstream
support ended (Extended support ended April 2017).

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista>

And for the record, AFAIC, Windows 8.1 was fine too (system came with
8, but with a 8.1 update).

Basically 'all' (never had 7) XP-and-later Windows versions were/are
fine, but yes, all need(ed) getting used to.

Paul wrote on 3/18/24 9:56 AM:
> On 3/18/2024 5:42 AM, wasbit wrote:
>> Vista was fine if you doubled the specified minimum amount of RAM.
>> Can't remember if that was 512MB to 1GB or 1GB to 2GB
> Windows Update takes a minimum of 3 minutes to compute updates, and
> that's when it is "well tuned". If you switch on your Vista SP2 right
> now and do a Windows Update run, the time for it to paint the
> menu is "infinity". Usually while this is happening, or just before,
> there is RAM consumption while WU works out supersedence (the ability
> of one patch to make another earlier patch, unnecessary).
>
> Paul
>
>
Fyi...Windows Update's 'infinity' timing on Vista and earlier devices was
never addressed. Windows 7 had the same delay/timing problem up to its
last rollup update(sometimes but incorrectly referred to as Service Pack 2)
Both Windows Update and the backend server were changed - basically a
'tune-up'.
=> previously WU processed superseded updates in chronological
order(everything previously released). A two stage deployment took place.
Initially installing the roll-up(released May 2016) reset the clock to
check for any post SP1 updates and post SP! pre-requisite updates, a
later WU engine and backend update reset the clock a second time if the
rollup was installed to updates after May 2016.
- there were a few exceptions where a pre-requisite KB was updated but
KB number not changed and still necessary.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 08:22:47 -0400, "Newyana2" <Newyana2@invalid.nospam>
wrote as underneath :

>"Charlie+" <charlie@xxx.net> wrote
>
>| > I'm writing this on XP. It works wonderfully,
>| >aside from outdated browsers.
>| >
>| Agreed! Tried MyPal68 ? Works pretty well on XP. IMHO. C+
>
> I've read about that. The name is cloying and the
>racoon icon is childish. But I was going to give it a try.
>However, it's based on the Goanna rendering engine.
snip

Enjoyed your post but just try it, only take you 10 minutes, I use it on
XP daily and it works just fine.. had to use linux previously when
firefox on XP was unliv-able with any more!
Just d/l, doesnt have an installer so no interfering with registry or
anything else, I just made a dir under Program Files and run. Take your
usual precautions as normal for browsers! C+