Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote

> For those in California, there's the MyShake app to give early
> warning of earthquakes. But in light of stories like this one, is
> there any reason for Android users to install that app?
>
> <https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/california-warned-2-2-million-
> people-via-phone-alerts-before-earthquake-hit/>
>
> It sure sounds like the warnings came through the state alert system,
> so I wonder what if anything MyShake could have added.

Since I did some research on Stan's question, the answer may be lost
to those who can't handle detail, so I'll answer the question up front.
Q: MyShake app -- redundant? (Californiia)
A: Not really. It does much of the same but also more than the default.
Hence, it's additive (even in California).

While they ran most of the tests in California alone it seems...
<https://www.kqed.org/science/1984781/myshake-earthquake-alert-test-thursday>
Which the scientist who designed the test said it worked as planned...
<https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/scientist-who-helped-create-myshake-app-says-alert-worked-as-planned/>

The iOS/Android MyShake app says it works for almost everyone in the world:
<https://myshake.berkeley.edu>

The free MyShake app is available on both iOS and Android for the world.
<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/myshake/id1467058529>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=edu.berkeley.bsl.myshake>

See gory details below as to how I arrived at that factual assessment...

I live within line of sight of the San Andreas fault line & my house has
never been through a big one so I'm always wondering what will happen.

But I'll probably know all about it sooner than most people will given
earthquake insurance is roughly about sixty thousand dollars a year
(which is way cheaper than fire insurance at only about half of that).

The point of bringing that up is we live in a dangerous area, by choice.

Besides, I get so many California alerts on the strangest things, I turn
them all off (plus I'm not sure how much tracking is inevitably done).

If you don't believe how strange California is, then read one of these.
�*In a first, California's Ebony Alert will help find missing Black people*
�<https://www.npr.org/2023/10/15/1205950946/in-a-first-californias-ebony-alert-will-help-track-down-missing-black-people>
�<https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/11/us/california-ebony-alert-reaj/index.html>
�<https://www.npr.org/2023/10/11/1205151447/california-ebony-alert-system-missing-black-youth-women>
�<https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/california-just-created-ebony-alert-find-missing-black-children-rcna119679>
etc.

However, most of the world isn't alerted to death like we are in California
(don't even get me started on the proposition 65 alerts everywhere!).
<https://www.p65warnings.ca.gov>

Stan's question is valid as it's a need for many to know about shakers.

I was previously ignorant of this "shakealert" app so I thank Stan
for bringing it up as, with every question, I research to learn more.

I suggest whenever someone suggests an app, I they supply the link.
That way, everyone else doesn't have to look for that link (and worse,
in some cases, there are look-alike copycat apps with similar names).

This search though, seems to find what I think is the app Stan mentioned.

*MyShake* by UC Berkeley Seismological Laboratory
"Get earthquake early warning alerts in California, Oregon & Washington!"
free,adfree,inappfree,requires gsf,3.6star,4.68K reviews,1M+Downloads
"Receive timely, potentially life-saving early warning alerts in
California, Oregon and Washington. MyShake uses the USGS ShakeAlert
system to deliver alerts for earthquakes of magnitude 4.5 (or greater)
several seconds before shaking arrives."
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=edu.berkeley.bsl.myshake>

As you noted, there's already a native Android setting that does that.
Settings > Safety and emergency > Earthquake alerts = on/off
(Earthquake alerts are on by default.)
"Android uses your approximate location to send info about nearby
earthquakes of magnitude 4.5 and above. Earthquakes are detected by
ShakeAlert (CA, OR & WA) and by Android (all other locations)"

Learn more: <https://support.google.com/android/answer/9319337>
These earthquake alerts are based on the Android Earthquake Alerts System.

Where the Android Earthquake Alerts System is active, namely Afghanistan
Albania Algeria Anguilla Antigua and Barbuda Argentina Armenia Aruba
Australia Austria Azerbaijan Barbados Bangladesh Belize Bhutan Bolivia
Bosnia & Herzegovina Brazil Bulgaria Chile Colombia Croatia Cuba Cyprus
Czechia (Czech Republic) Djibouti Dominica Dominican Republic Ecuador
Egypt El Salvador Eritrea Ethiopia Falkland Islands France Georgia
Germany Greece Grenada Guadeloupe Haiti Honduras Hungary Iceland
India Iran Iraq Israel Jamaica Jordan Kazakhstan Kosovo Kyrgyzstan
Laos Lebanon Malaysia Moldova Mongolia Montenegro Myanmar Nepal
New Zealand Nicaragua North Macedonia Oman Pakistan Palestine
Papua New Guinea Peru Philippines Portugal Romania Saint Barthelemy
Saint Martin San Marino Saudi Arabia Serbia Sint Maarten Slovakia
Slovenia Solomon Islands Somalia Spain Switzerland Tajikistan Tanzania
Thailand Timor-Leste Trinidad & Tobago Tunisia Turkey Turkmenistan
Ukraine United Arab Emirates Uzbekistan Vanuatu & Venezuela.

But, if you live in another region of the world, see the information below.

Looking up the app, it seems it provides added-value features such as
"Earthquake Map
View and explore a map of earthquakes around the world and get detailed
information such as earthquake magnitude, location and depth.
See community reports of shaking and damage.

Shake Experience Report
Submit your own experience of an earthquake including shaking intensity
and damage.
These reports are valuable to USGS to build quake experience maps.

Earthquake Notification
Stay informed of earthquakes as they occur by receiving notifications
on your phone.
Select your regions of interest and the earthquake magnitude.
You'll never miss out on any earthquake greater than M3.5!

Smartphone-Based Global Seismic Network
Participate in a smartphone-based global seismic network.
In this research project, your phone becomes a mini-seismometer
and contributes to the detection of earthquakes wherever you are.
This global citizen-science based seismic network has the potential
to provide early warning earthquake alerts in every region of the world,
even in the absence of traditional seismic networks!

About Us
MyShake is developed by the University of California, Berkeley,
Seismology Lab and funded by the California Governor's Office of
Emergency Services. The Berkeley Seismology Lab conducts essential
research on earthquakes and solid earth processes while collecting
and delivering high quality geophysical data.

Learn more at http://myshake.berkeley.edu"

I didn't even know about this app until Stan mentioned it, so I'm
glad he did since ignorance can always be easily cured with effort.

My summary of the answer to Stan's apropos question is that the
app strives to add value for people in many countries, and even
for people in the three western US states, the app seems to
provide added value in ways other than just the earthquake alerts.
--
The whole point of Usenet is to find people who know more than you do.
And to contribute to the overall tribal knowledge value of the newsgroup.

On 10/20/23 10:15 AM, Wally J wrote:

> I live within line of sight of the San Andreas fault line & my house has
> never been through a big one so I'm always wondering what will happen.
>
> But I'll probably know all about it sooner than most people will given
> earthquake insurance is roughly about sixty thousand dollars a year
> (which is way cheaper than fire insurance at only about half of that).

Jesus. Rates must be based on distance from the fault. Ours is way
less than our proptax (thanks, Prop13).

> The point of bringing that up is we live in a dangerous area, by choice.
We have a small wood-frame house built in 195x which we bought in 1967,
maybe one mile south of the Angeles Forest foothills. Cracks in the
concrete porch, but nothing worrisome. We had some bookshelves come
down, which enabled us to contribute a lot of books to the library
rather than putting them back on the shelves. That's about it. So far,
so good.

> However, most of the world isn't alerted to death like we are in California
> (don't even get me started on the proposition 65 alerts everywhere!).
> <https://www.p65warnings.ca.gov>

I don't even notice them any more, but this one does stand out -- it's
next to the drinks machine at the gym.

I find the phrase "known TO the State of California" to be hopelessly
pompous. As is the whole warning, actually. And stupid. They stick
them on BUILDINGS!

And Newsom wants to run for President. Apparently he's making a stop in
Israel on his way to China to discuss global warming. Would Kalifornia
be better or worse off if he moved to DC? Ponder...

--
Cheers, Bev
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in
poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are
apparently doing quite well for themselves." -- Emo Philips

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

>> But I'll probably know all about it sooner than most people will given
>> earthquake insurance is roughly about sixty thousand dollars a year
>> (which is way cheaper than fire insurance at only about half of that).
>
> Jesus. Rates must be based on distance from the fault. Ours is way
> less than our proptax (thanks, Prop13).

I agree with you on _everything_ you said in this California post!

Our property taxes are more than most people's rent (at tens of thousands
per year - which - thanks to Trump - isn't even deductible anymore), but I
made a boo boo when I looked back. The Fire Insurance is about $30K/year so
it's a bargain at about 1/2 (not double) the Earthquake Insurance.

>> The point of bringing that up is we live in a dangerous area, by choice.
> We have a small wood-frame house built in 195x which we bought in 1967,
> maybe one mile south of the Angeles Forest foothills. Cracks in the
> concrete porch, but nothing worrisome. We had some bookshelves come
> down, which enabled us to contribute a lot of books to the library
> rather than putting them back on the shelves. That's about it. So far,
> so good.

I've seen the photos of the big one where the ground shifted at the curb
about six inches overall in San Francisco, and in the surrounding areas a
fence broke in half when it slid sidewise about five or six feet it seems.

Up here, in the hills overlooking the San Andreas fault line, it's easy to
see the fault line because there is a torn-up valley that goes from the
Santa Cruz mountains along highway 280 to Crystal Reservoir and to the
namesake San Andreas Lake.

West of the fault are ancient soils underlain by granite torn off from the
southern tip of the Sierras from way down in your area near to LA - but
east of the fault line are young'ish 30-million-year-old mafic San
Franciscan sediments, mostly cherts plowed up from the ocean seafloor when
the Farallon Plate was finally consumed at the SF Bay Area latitude.

While we're on this topic, ever notice that the mountain ridges are all
about the same height? And that they're that way on both sides of Silicon
Valley? That's no accident.

The Silicon Valley itself was caused by a fault block that dropped, and
filled in with ocean water and hence with bay sediments which is why it's
flat.

The mountains, where "were" a plateau at the time of all of this happening,
slowly wore away at the cracks and crevices such that they're mountains now
but they were a flat table then (which is why all the peaks are about the
same height).

>> However, most of the world isn't alerted to death like we are in California
>> (don't even get me started on the proposition 65 alerts everywhere!).
>> <https://www.p65warnings.ca.gov>
>
> I don't even notice them any more, but this one does stand out -- it's
> next to the drinks machine at the gym.
>
> I find the phrase "known TO the State of California" to be hopelessly
> pompous. As is the whole warning, actually. And stupid. They stick
> them on BUILDINGS!

They're pretty much on almost everything, as you've noted.

Recently I bought a garden hose connection, and it was stamped on that.
Same with tools, such as hammers.

There comes a point where "the sky is falling" is ignored by the people.
A case in point is the Amber Alert signs we paid for all along the highways
started telling us to stop watering our lawns due to drought conditions.

What irked me about them is they had NOTHING to do with Amber Alerts.
And, worse - they had NOTHING to do with anything on the highway.

At least those incessantly stupidly idiotically illogical signs saying
"It's the law!" is the only reason for doing things related to driving.

Likewise with those idiotically illogical signs telling us how much the
infraction is for driving in the commuter lane is - WTF?

Is that how California politicians actually think?
The _only_ reason for their signs is either
a. Do it only because it's the law - not for any other reason
b. Don't do it only because of the cost - not for any other reason

Do any other states do these crazy things other than California?

> And Newsom wants to run for President. Apparently he's making a stop in
> Israel on his way to China to discuss global warming. Would Kalifornia
> be better or worse off if he moved to DC? Ponder...

And we have to pay for Newsom's trip to those countries too!
No wonder our property taxes are tens of thousands of dollars per year.
--
The whole point of Usenet is to find people who know more than you do.
And to contribute to the overall tribal knowledge value of the newsgroup.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 13:15:55 -0400, Wally J wrote:
>
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote
>
> > For those in California, there's the MyShake app to give early
> > warning of earthquakes. But in light of stories like this one, is
> > there any reason for Android users to install that app?
> >
> > <https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/california-warned-2-2-million-
> > people-via-phone-alerts-before-earthquake-hit/>
> >
> > It sure sounds like the warnings came through the state alert system,
> > so I wonder what if anything MyShake could have added.
>
> Since I did some research on Stan's question, the answer may be lost
> to those who can't handle detail, so I'll answer the question up front.
> Q: MyShake app -- redundant? (Californiia)
> A: Not really. It does much of the same but also more than the default.
> Hence, it's additive (even in California).
> ...
> Looking up the app, it seems it provides added-value features such as
> "Earthquake Map
> View and explore a map of earthquakes around the world and get detailed
> information such as earthquake magnitude, location and depth.
> See community reports of shaking and damage.
>
> Shake Experience Report
> Submit your own experience of an earthquake including shaking intensity
> and damage.
> These reports are valuable to USGS to build quake experience maps.
>
> Earthquake Notification
> Stay informed of earthquakes as they occur by receiving notifications
> on your phone.
> Select your regions of interest and the earthquake magnitude.
> You'll never miss out on any earthquake greater than M3.5!
>
> Smartphone-Based Global Seismic Network
> Participate in a smartphone-based global seismic network.
> In this research project, your phone becomes a mini-seismometer
> and contributes to the detection of earthquakes wherever you are.
> This global citizen-science based seismic network has the potential
> to provide early warning earthquake alerts in every region of the world,
> even in the absence of traditional seismic networks!

Thanks for the info. Others may feel differently, but I don't find
any of those attractive to put yet another always-running app on my
phone.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote

> Thanks for the info. Others may feel differently, but I don't find
> any of those attractive to put yet another always-running app on my
> phone.

I'm glad you asked the question, which applies to Apple & Android users
around the world, so I took the facts you provided and answered the
question as best I could given my assessment of the facts.

Q: Is the iOS/Android My Shake app redundant in California?
A. For the most part, yes. However, it does some things additionally.

Since Android has the equivalent of that app native, a good question is
whether iOS has it also native, where a search shows that it also is.
<https://www.wikihow.com/Enable-Earthquake-Alerts-on-iPhone>

I was ignorant of the iPhone capability but ignorance is curable, where the
first sentence of that article mentions Japan which wasn't noted prior.
"If you live in California, Oregon, or Japan, you have the ability
to enable earthquake alerts"

Notice the weird fact that Washington isn't included in the iOS capability,
yet Japan was traded for Washington in that iOS capability (apparently).

Android native: California, Oregon & Washington
iOS native: California, Oregon & Japan

To your point, I have _every_ alert turned off on my phone except the one
(Presidential Alert) that can't be turned off so I understand concerns.

It all started with that idiotically designed "covid alert" functionality
(which, as you can imagine, I never turned on and bear in mind I have a
degree in that stuff so I know it better than almost anyone on this ng).

Of course, I don't have a password/fingerprint/faceid either ('cuz I don't
live in a slum where most people seem to live who feel it's necessary).

Likewise, I don't have a mothership account on my phone (although the iPads
are basically non functional once I stopped logging into the mothership).

Nor do I log into any account while using the phone unless that log in
stays inside the app and does not _create_ an account on the phone.
(Don't laugh - there are many apps which create an account on the phone!)

Hell, I don't even have a default contacts sqlite database since every app
seems intent on uploading our contacts to their mothership servers.

And when I install apps, I do it only anonymously (of course, that can't be
done on iOS becuase Apple inserts your unique AppleID into all your apps!).

Of course I remove the advertising ID and I don't log into anything on
the web or inside of apps (if it needs an account, it's not on my phone).

I have my home Wi-Fi SSID set to not broadcast and to append "_nomap", to
keep out of Google/Mozilla/NetStumbler/Wigle/etc. wardriving databases
(and I randomize the MAC on every connection & never autoconnect either).

In addition, I have one-tap shortcuts galore to TURN OFF SETTINGS that
constantly get turned on (I wonder why) every time you do stuff on the net
(again, don't laugh - watch what Google Maps turns on & doesn't turn off!).

Offhand I probably missed dozens of other privacy tweaks I perform, where
I just added a new one-tap setting to ensure earthquake alerts are off.
--
The whole point of Usenet is to find people who know more than you do.
And to contribute to the overall tribal knowledge value of the newsgroup.

On 10/20/23 1:45 PM, Wally J wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>> But I'll probably know all about it sooner than most people will given
>>> earthquake insurance is roughly about sixty thousand dollars a year
>>> (which is way cheaper than fire insurance at only about half of that).
>>
>> Jesus. Rates must be based on distance from the fault. Ours is way
>> less than our proptax (thanks, Prop13).
>
> I agree with you on _everything_ you said in this California post!
>
> Our property taxes are more than most people's rent (at tens of thousands
> per year - which - thanks to Trump - isn't even deductible anymore), but I
> made a boo boo when I looked back. The Fire Insurance is about $30K/year so
> it's a bargain at about 1/2 (not double) the Earthquake Insurance.

You forced me to dig out the bills :-( Proptax this year is $1002 based
on an assessed value of $50K. The assessments can be increased by no
more than 2%/year (Thanks, Howard!), which accounts for the low value.
The median home price in SoCal is nearing $1million. Zillow thinks our
hovel is worth perhaps half that, but they aren't including bulldozing
charges.

Homeowner's insurance on the $310K they figure it would cost to rebuild
(building value only) is $385/year. Quake insurance is $500/year. This
increase is new.

> I've seen the photos of the big one where the ground shifted at the curb
> about six inches overall in San Francisco, and in the surrounding areas a
> fence broke in half when it slid sidewise about five or six feet it seems.
>
> Up here, in the hills overlooking the San Andreas fault line, it's easy to
> see the fault line because there is a torn-up valley that goes from the
> Santa Cruz mountains along highway 280 to Crystal Reservoir and to the
> namesake San Andreas Lake.

On my only flight back from San Jose I deliberately chose a window seat
(this used to be FREE!) so I could see the fault. Unfortunately my
seatmate insisted on talking during the flight and I politely turned
toward him to answer instead of looking out the window. I wouldn't do
that today. Young people are stupid.

I recently borrowed a slick book from the library --
https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-San-Andreas-Fault/dp/1941384080/ref=sr_1_11?crid=4G2H0H005RDE&keywords=san+andreas+fault&qid=1697906609&sprefix=san+andreas+fault%2Caps%2C192&sr=8-11

I had intended to copy some of the detailed pages, but never got around
to it and returned the book. The spiral-bound version (super expensive)
comes with a CD, which would be infinitely more useful -- copy it to the
tablet and just follow the instructions.

<nifty fault-result description snipped>

>>> However, most of the world isn't alerted to death like we are in California
>>> (don't even get me started on the proposition 65 alerts everywhere!).
>>> <https://www.p65warnings.ca.gov>
>>
>> I don't even notice them any more, but this one does stand out -- it's
>> next to the drinks machine at the gym.
>>
>> I find the phrase "known TO the State of California" to be hopelessly
>> pompous. As is the whole warning, actually. And stupid. They stick
>> them on BUILDINGS!
>
> They're pretty much on almost everything, as you've noted.
>
> Recently I bought a garden hose connection, and it was stamped on that.
> Same with tools, such as hammers.
>
> There comes a point where "the sky is falling" is ignored by the people.
> A case in point is the Amber Alert signs we paid for all along the highways
> started telling us to stop watering our lawns due to drought conditions.
>
> What irked me about them is they had NOTHING to do with Amber Alerts.
> And, worse - they had NOTHING to do with anything on the highway.
>
> At least those incessantly stupidly idiotically illogical signs saying
> "It's the law!" is the only reason for doing things related to driving.
>
> Likewise with those idiotically illogical signs telling us how much the
> infraction is for driving in the commuter lane is - WTF?

The signs announcing the next legal exit area are way too small to read
in the fraction of a second I have available at 80mph, the standard
diamond-lane speed when possible. Absolutely useless. In some places
the separation line is broken, which I assume means we can slip in and
out at will rather than only in designated spots.

I really hate using the diamond lane -- motorcycles split (the only
sensible thing for them to do), but they're silent and if I move just a
bit to the right (does anyone maintain a perfect straight line?) I could
kill the poor guy. Moreover, you never can tell when some impatient
driver stopped in the 'fast' lane will decide to go for it.

> Is that how California politicians actually think?
> The _only_ reason for their signs is either
> a. Do it only because it's the law - not for any other reason
> b. Don't do it only because of the cost - not for any other reason

Because everyone involved in government is stupid and/or venal. If they
really gave a shit they'd replace the lights on the above-the-freeway
signs so we could read them in the dark. Headlights aren't aimed high
enough for the reflectors to work. Yeahyeahyeah, most people use their
app blablablabla but I'd rather know where I'm going for real -- google
and Garmin occasionally do weird things.

> Do any other states do these crazy things other than California?

I'm sure they do. We're probably #1, though!

>> And Newsom wants to run for President. Apparently he's making a stop in
>> Israel on his way to China to discuss global warming. Would Kalifornia
>> be better or worse off if he moved to DC? Ponder...
>
> And we have to pay for Newsom's trip to those countries too!
> No wonder our property taxes are tens of thousands of dollars per year.

No politician should ever be paid to leave his office. Period.
Exception for the President to attend the occasional State Funeral, of
course.

--
Cheers, Bev
"When I was a kid my dad once joked that the best way to
prevent being on a plane with someone carrying a bomb
would be to bring your own bomb and not detonate it.
Sounded convincing. What are the odds that two people
board, each with a bomb?" -- Rowdy

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

> You forced me to dig out the bills :-( Proptax this year is $1002 based
> on an assessed value of $50K. The assessments can be increased by no
> more than 2%/year (Thanks, Howard!), which accounts for the low value.
> The median home price in SoCal is nearing $1million. Zillow thinks our
> hovel is worth perhaps half that, but they aren't including bulldozing
> charges.

Wow. Prop 13 saved you. I wish I had the first home I bought in California
for $200K as it is likely Zillow-worthed more than a million today.

Do you remember a couple of years ago they tried to erode prop 13 with a
series of related catch-me-if-you-can propositions to chop off parts of it?

> Homeowner's insurance on the $310K they figure it would cost to rebuild
> (building value only) is $385/year. Quake insurance is $500/year. This
> increase is new.

You have a good deal. I happen to live, unfortunately, in one of the most
expensive communities in the United States - which is also a Tier III fire
zone and within sight of the San Andreas fault - so that explains things.

My point on the alerts is that I wouldn't live in such a dangerous area if
I was worried about earthquakes - which is why I have alerts turned off.

> On my only flight back from San Jose I deliberately chose a window seat
> (this used to be FREE!) so I could see the fault. Unfortunately my
> seatmate insisted on talking during the flight and I politely turned
> toward him to answer instead of looking out the window. I wouldn't do
> that today. Young people are stupid.

Here is what you would have seen from the sky (it's interactive).
<http://thulescientific.com/san-andreas-fault-map.html>

> I recently borrowed a slick book from the library --
> https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-San-Andreas-Fault/dp/1941384080

Nice find! "The Field Guide to the San Andreas Fault by David K Lynch".
I have his book on Cirrus clouds, but I didn't know of that field guide.
I'll keep an eye open for that field guide now that I know about it.

I have in my collection a few John Dvorak books on the topic, such as
Earthquake Storms: An Unauthorized Biography of the San Andreas Fault

I have all the Roadside Geology guides starting with Arizona decades
ago and when I moved to California I picked up the Norcal edition.

I almost never go anywhere without picking up some sort of "field guide"
(Peterson's are great for nature lovers) such as the "Roadside Guide" or
the "Rough Guides" which exist for most areas of the world I've visited.

> I had intended to copy some of the detailed pages, but never got around
> to it and returned the book. The spiral-bound version (super expensive)
> comes with a CD, which would be infinitely more useful -- copy it to the
> tablet and just follow the instructions.

I was recently reading this 50-page paper which covers your area I think.

"High geologic slip rates since early Pleistocene initiation
of the San Jacinto and San Felipe fault zones in the San Andreas
fault system, Southern California, USA"

>> Likewise with those idiotically illogical signs telling us how much the
>> infraction is for driving in the commuter lane is - WTF?
>
> The signs announcing the next legal exit area are way too small to read
> in the fraction of a second I have available at 80mph, the standard
> diamond-lane speed when possible. Absolutely useless. In some places
> the separation line is broken, which I assume means we can slip in and
> out at will rather than only in designated spots.

Did you know that California was _forced_ to add those exit numbers?

> I really hate using the diamond lane -- motorcycles split (the only
> sensible thing for them to do), but they're silent and if I move just a
> bit to the right (does anyone maintain a perfect straight line?) I could
> kill the poor guy. Moreover, you never can tell when some impatient
> driver stopped in the 'fast' lane will decide to go for it.

I ride a K1200 so I know all about what most bikers do. It's crazy.
They weave. That's not actually legal but they don't get tickets for it.

The way the California law works, last I checked (which was long ago when I
took the lollipop test) is that both cagers and bikers have the same laws.

The laws do NOT prohibit "sharing" of a line if space permits.
So it works both ways.

A cager can legally share the same lane as the biker but it almost never
happens, not the least of which is the bike can out accelerate the cage.

Bikers are supposed to follow all laws just like cars drivers do, where you
should see what happens when a cager tries to share the lane at a light.

BTW, even the emergency vehicles must follow all laws in some states, but
not in California. When I was an EMT back east, I was taught that fact.

>> Is that how California politicians actually think?
>> The _only_ reason for their signs is either
>> a. Do it only because it's the law - not for any other reason
>> b. Don't do it only because of the cost - not for any other reason
>
> Because everyone involved in government is stupid and/or venal. If they
> really gave a shit they'd replace the lights on the above-the-freeway
> signs so we could read them in the dark. Headlights aren't aimed high
> enough for the reflectors to work. Yeahyeahyeah, most people use their
> app blablablabla but I'd rather know where I'm going for real -- google
> and Garmin occasionally do weird things.

This is one of the many situations where cellphones make driving safer.
Anyone who says cellphones cause accidents doesn't know the statistics.
There have been progressively fewer accidents per mile driven in every
state in the USA since before, during & after the cellphone adoption.

That reliable fact isn't what the politicians who screamed for those
driving laws used - all they used were their cherry picked accidents.

Sigh. There's no logic in politics. Ask Steve all about it.
He used to be the Mayor of Cupertino. He knows politics.

Verizon was his biggest customer. Fancy that.
>> Do any other states do these crazy things other than California?
>
> I'm sure they do. We're probably #1, though!

I think the wackiest states are about five, all blue, California, New York,
Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Jersey although _they_ would throw Texas
in that category (I'm not sure which are the wacky red states though).

The governor recently vetoed a bill banning the caste system in California.
*California governor vetoes bill that would have banned caste discrimination*
<https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2023/10/07/california-caste-discrimination-ban-newsom-veto/dd883386-654e-11ee-b406-3ea724995806_story.html>

And now we have ebony alerts for missing black people, apparently.
*California Ebony Alert will help find missing Black people*
<https://www.npr.org/2023/10/15/1205950946/in-a-first-californias-ebony-alert-will-help-track-down-missing-black-people>

>>> And Newsom wants to run for President. Apparently he's making a stop in
>>> Israel on his way to China to discuss global warming. Would Kalifornia
>>> be better or worse off if he moved to DC? Ponder...
>>
>> And we have to pay for Newsom's trip to those countries too!
>> No wonder our property taxes are tens of thousands of dollars per year.
>
> No politician should ever be paid to leave his office. Period.
> Exception for the President to attend the occasional State Funeral, of
> course.

I agree with you that it's not right for us to pay for their political
campaigns in other countries - leave that to the experienced diplomats.

On 10/21/23 11:34 AM, Wally J wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>
>> You forced me to dig out the bills :-( Proptax this year is $1002 based
>> on an assessed value of $50K. The assessments can be increased by no
>> more than 2%/year (Thanks, Howard!), which accounts for the low value.
>> The median home price in SoCal is nearing $1million. Zillow thinks our
>> hovel is worth perhaps half that, but they aren't including bulldozing
>> charges.
>
> Wow. Prop 13 saved you. I wish I had the first home I bought in California
> for $200K as it is likely Zillow-worthed more than a million today.

I wish we'd mortgaged ourselves up to the hilt and bought the most
expensive home in San Marino that we could afford. Buying cheap so we
could just walk away if we had to move across the country for work was a
big mistake.

> Do you remember a couple of years ago they tried to erode prop 13 with a
> series of related catch-me-if-you-can propositions to chop off parts of it?

It's a constant battle. They're trying to split the roll so that
business property would no longer be protected. People are stupid and
this just might succeed. The tweak they accomplished sounds good if
heirs actually WANT to live in the home of their deceased parent, but if
they want to sell out immediately it's a different story.

>> Homeowner's insurance on the $310K they figure it would cost to rebuild
>> (building value only) is $385/year. Quake insurance is $500/year. This
>> increase is new.
>
> You have a good deal. I happen to live, unfortunately, in one of the most
> expensive communities in the United States - which is also a Tier III fire
> zone and within sight of the San Andreas fault - so that explains things.

Not quite a slum here, but definitely lower middle class and a freeway
on-ramp.

> Here is what you would have seen from the sky (it's interactive).
> <http://thulescientific.com/san-andreas-fault-map.html>

Wow! That must have taken a LOT of red paint!

>> I recently borrowed a slick book from the library --
>> https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-San-Andreas-Fault/dp/1941384080
>
> Nice find! "The Field Guide to the San Andreas Fault by David K Lynch".
> I have his book on Cirrus clouds, but I didn't know of that field guide.
> I'll keep an eye open for that field guide now that I know about it.

You can probably get it on an inter-library loan. It needs bigger
photos, though :-(

> I have in my collection a few John Dvorak books on the topic, such as
> Earthquake Storms: An Unauthorized Biography of the San Andreas Fault
>
> I have all the Roadside Geology guides starting with Arizona decades
> ago and when I moved to California I picked up the Norcal edition.

The Russ Leadabrand books are good.

>>> Likewise with those idiotically illogical signs telling us how much the
>>> infraction is for driving in the commuter lane is - WTF?
>>
>> The signs announcing the next legal exit area are way too small to read
>> in the fraction of a second I have available at 80mph, the standard
>> diamond-lane speed when possible. Absolutely useless. In some places
>> the separation line is broken, which I assume means we can slip in and
>> out at will rather than only in designated spots.
>
> Did you know that California was _forced_ to add those exit numbers?

Not a bad idea if it's an addition rather than a replacement. When they
give city names as directions in an unfamiliar area I have more sympathy
fo the people who shoot road signs. WTF is wrong with north, south,
east or west? OTOH that's sometimes ambiguous.

>> I really hate using the diamond lane -- motorcycles split (the only
>> sensible thing for them to do), but they're silent and if I move just a
>> bit to the right (does anyone maintain a perfect straight line?) I could
>> kill the poor guy. Moreover, you never can tell when some impatient
>> driver stopped in the 'fast' lane will decide to go for it.
>
> I ride a K1200 so I know all about what most bikers do. It's crazy.
> They weave. That's not actually legal but they don't get tickets for it.

If you're fast enough and pay attention it's not that dangerous unless
you suddenly come upon a hunk of truck tire or 2x4 hidden by the car
ahead of you.

> The way the California law works, last I checked (which was long ago when I
> took the lollipop test) is that both cagers and bikers have the same laws.
>
> The laws do NOT prohibit "sharing" of a line if space permits.
> So it works both ways.

I think they loosened that recently, but I don't remember where I heard
that.

> A cager can legally share the same lane as the biker but it almost never
> happens, not the least of which is the bike can out accelerate the cage.

Last time I took the MC written test I missed one -- I said that bikes
should ride to the side of the lane (center oil slick), but 'center' was
the correct answer. I was pissed because they were WRONG, but then I
looked at the local freeway lanes. No oil slicks. The thing needs
considerable repair (born in 1973 or so) but there's no oil. Cars are
just BETTER now, so The Bastards were actually right.

> Bikers are supposed to follow all laws just like cars drivers do, where you
> should see what happens when a cager tries to share the lane at a light.
>
> BTW, even the emergency vehicles must follow all laws in some states, but
> not in California. When I was an EMT back east, I was taught that fact.

On our trips across the country we saw a lot of EMERGENCY VEHICLE signs
on roads leading off the main highway. Next to one of them was a
rusted-out station wagon that had clearly been there for decades. I
guess the others had all been stolen...

>> Because everyone involved in government is stupid and/or venal. If they
>> really gave a shit they'd replace the lights on the above-the-freeway
>> signs so we could read them in the dark. Headlights aren't aimed high
>> enough for the reflectors to work. Yeahyeahyeah, most people use their
>> app blablablabla but I'd rather know where I'm going for real -- google
>> and Garmin occasionally do weird things.
>
> This is one of the many situations where cellphones make driving safer.
> Anyone who says cellphones cause accidents doesn't know the statistics.
> There have been progressively fewer accidents per mile driven in every
> state in the USA since before, during & after the cellphone adoption.
>
> That reliable fact isn't what the politicians who screamed for those
> driving laws used - all they used were their cherry picked accidents.
>
> Sigh. There's no logic in politics. Ask Steve all about it.
> He used to be the Mayor of Cupertino. He knows politics.
>
> Verizon was his biggest customer. Fancy that.
>
>>> Do any other states do these crazy things other than California?
>>
>> I'm sure they do. We're probably #1, though!
>
> I think the wackiest states are about five, all blue, California, New York,
> Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Jersey although _they_ would throw Texas
> in that category (I'm not sure which are the wacky red states though).
>
> The governor recently vetoed a bill banning the caste system in California.
> *California governor vetoes bill that would have banned caste discrimination*
> <https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2023/10/07/california-caste-discrimination-ban-newsom-veto/dd883386-654e-11ee-b406-3ea724995806_story.html>

I'd never realized that we had that many Dalits here. I watched Dr. Who
a few times and would have thought that they were able to take care of
themselves without anyone's help. For once Newsom recognized reality.

> And now we have ebony alerts for missing black people, apparently.
> *California Ebony Alert will help find missing Black people*
> <https://www.npr.org/2023/10/15/1205950946/in-a-first-californias-ebony-alert-will-help-track-down-missing-black-people>

It would seem that this was aimed at the people in control of the
message boards as well as the cops who make the decision between missing
and runaway, not the general public. Feather alerts. Ebony alerts.
Amber alerts. Will there be separate boards or will there be
different-colored lights? What color is a 'feather'? We used to listen
to NPR before they jettisoned Garrison Keillor. Until then it was
merely annoying.

--
Cheers, Bev
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting
them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for
no good reason. - Jack Handy

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

>> Wow. Prop 13 saved you. I wish I had the first home I bought in California
>> for $200K as it is likely Zillow-worthed more than a million today.
>
> I wish we'd mortgaged ourselves up to the hilt and bought the most
> expensive home in San Marino that we could afford. Buying cheap so we
> could just walk away if we had to move across the country for work was a
> big mistake.

I agree with you that we should have mortgaged ourselves to the hilt.
As you're aware, any $200K home turned into a million easily out here.

>> Do you remember a couple of years ago they tried to erode prop 13 with a
>> series of related catch-me-if-you-can propositions to chop off parts of it?
>
> It's a constant battle. They're trying to split the roll so that
> business property would no longer be protected.

Good. You understood. Most people are stupid. They only read the titles.
And man oh man, are those titles great sounding names for the props.
Prop titles sound like Apple advertisements - they're that well done!

> People are stupid and this just might succeed.

Many propositions are the same proposition twisted around a bit.
Their strategy is to keep pushing them out there until they finally win.

As you said, most people are incredibly stupid.
There was never a proposition written that didn't sound fantastic.

> The tweak they accomplished sounds good if
> heirs actually WANT to live in the home of their deceased parent, but if
> they want to sell out immediately it's a different story.

Yup. You understood. There was another attack on Proposition 13 that I
don't remember but they will keep proffering them until they finally win.

Death of a thousand cuts it is.

>> You have a good deal. I happen to live, unfortunately, in one of the most
>> expensive communities in the United States - which is also a Tier III fire
>> zone and within sight of the San Andreas fault - so that explains things.
>
> Not quite a slum here, but definitely lower middle class and a freeway
> on-ramp.

I moved here "for the schools" but in reality, that's merely a euphemism.

>> Here is what you would have seen from the sky (it's interactive).
>> <http://thulescientific.com/san-andreas-fault-map.html>
>
> Wow! That must have taken a LOT of red paint!

You're funny.
Comedians see the same things everyone else does - but differently.
Red paint! :)

Funny thing about California paint - did'ja ever notice the strip in the
middle almost always has black paint underlying the yellow stripes?

Back east, where I came from, you'd _never_ see that.
I don't recall any other state doing that.

I always figured there must be a reason _only_ California does it.
Do any other states do it that you know of?

>> I have in my collection a few John Dvorak books on the topic, such as
>> Earthquake Storms: An Unauthorized Biography of the San Andreas Fault
>>
>> I have all the Roadside Geology guides starting with Arizona decades
>> ago and when I moved to California I picked up the Norcal edition.
>
> The Russ Leadabrand books are good.

Thanks for the pointer, where I had to delete my ignorance of who he was.
<https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-12-23-mn-12126-story.html>
"Russ Leadabrand, writer and historian chronicled CA & the Old West"

My first search was with Google Scholar, which found some of his stuff.
<https://scholar.google.com/scholar?&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Russ+Leadabrand>

But if you're near "Sunset Range", there's a downloadable PDF from him here
<https://www.base-search.net/Search/Results?lookfor=Russ+Leadabrand>
There are a few books of the California deserts there too.

Nothing on the Santa Cruz Mountain Range though...
>> Did you know that California was _forced_ to add those exit numbers?
>
> Not a bad idea if it's an addition rather than a replacement.

Yes. The federal gob'ment decreed they had to follow the rules.
Did'ja ever notice California isn't big on exit numbers on the signs?
Now they're forced to - if they want federal funds - which they want.

> When they
> give city names as directions in an unfamiliar area I have more sympathy
> fo the people who shoot road signs.

I've read the NHTSA traffic sign PDF ever since it was a PDF (it's only
online now) where they're s'posed to pick the three biggest destinations.

As for shooting road signs, did'ja ever drive in Texas?
Every deer-crossing sign is riddled with buckshot.

> WTF is wrong with north, south,
> east or west? OTOH that's sometimes ambiguous.

A lot of people are stupid, maybe 900 out of 1000 or worse, so they don't
realize that the three-digit interstates don't follow the same rules as
those below 100 do in terms of north:south & east:west numbering systems.

For example, out here we have I280 which almost never goes east & west 'cuz
it's shaped like a "U" where one end is North and the other is South, but
both ends touch (eventually) its two digit namesake. Which is the point.

We also have the eponymous I380, I580, I680 & I880, all of which follow the
rules of the three-digit roads, which are different than for two digits.

Of course, out here we have _one digit_ interstates, but that's only
because they started with 5 out west moving to 95 back east (always below
three digits - which is important).

Did'ja every notice that not only the mileage markers count upward and
eastward from the state border (or the beginning of the roadway)?

Most people don't know that in a single mile you know exactly what
direction you're traveling from the mileage markers (or exit numbers).

People are incredibly stupid.
They know nothing about this fantastically well-designed system.

>> I ride a K1200 so I know all about what most bikers do. It's crazy.
>> They weave. That's not actually legal but they don't get tickets for it.
>
> If you're fast enough and pay attention it's not that dangerous unless
> you suddenly come upon a hunk of truck tire or 2x4 hidden by the car
> ahead of you.

Bikes are dangerous because of cagers and the weather (which is never
really bad in California but it is nasty back east with the black ice).

A cager taking a left turn is the most dangerous thing to a biker...

>> The laws do NOT prohibit "sharing" of a line if space permits.
>> So it works both ways.
>
> I think they loosened that recently, but I don't remember where I heard
> that.

It has been a looooooong time since I took the MC test so I don't know if
the laws changed - but they used to be that all passenger vehicles followed
the same laws - but cagers don't normally want to share a lane with bikers.
>> A cager can legally share the same lane as the biker but it almost never
>> happens, not the least of which is the bike can out accelerate the cage.
>
> Last time I took the MC written test I missed one -- I said that bikes
> should ride to the side of the lane (center oil slick), but 'center' was
> the correct answer.

Yeah. I've taken these tests too. My first one, when I was a kid, I also
got one wrong which was similarly stupid in that they asked if you should
stand on the pegs when you go over bump where what they meant was to
simply shift your weight a bit lower in the center of gravity.

Another one, on another test, was whether to be in neutral at a light,
where they want you always in gear - but most bikers shift into neutral
because otherwise they'll have hands the size of a gorilla's paws.

> I was pissed because they were WRONG, but then I
> looked at the local freeway lanes. No oil slicks. The thing needs
> considerable repair (born in 1973 or so) but there's no oil. Cars are
> just BETTER now, so The Bastards were actually right.

While any biker is extremely familiar with the puddles of oil at every
stoplight, I agree there isn't much of an oil slick - except on one day!

Back east, it rains a lot. Out here, it only rains in the winter. As you
know, that means a billion accidents on the first drizzle of the season.

All because of those beads of oil mixing with the rain water and stupid
drivers. I wonder if I've mentioned 900 out of 1000 people are stupid?

>> I think the wackiest states are about five, all blue, California, New York,
>> Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Jersey although _they_ would throw Texas
>> in that category (I'm not sure which are the wacky red states though).
>>
>> The governor recently vetoed a bill banning the caste system in California.
>> *California governor vetoes bill that would have banned caste discrimination*
>> <https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2023/10/07/california-caste-discrimination-ban-newsom-veto/dd883386-654e-11ee-b406-3ea724995806_story.html>
>
> I'd never realized that we had that many Dalits here. I watched Dr. Who
> a few times and would have thought that they were able to take care of
> themselves without anyone's help. For once Newsom recognized reality.

On 10/21/23 3:26 PM, Wally J wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>> Wow. Prop 13 saved you. I wish I had the first home I bought in California
>>> for $200K as it is likely Zillow-worthed more than a million today.

This one was $19K in 1967. Zillow thinks it's worth $760K. Jesus.

>> I wish we'd mortgaged ourselves up to the hilt and bought the most
>> expensive home in San Marino that we could afford. Buying cheap so we
>> could just walk away if we had to move across the country for work was a
>> big mistake.
>
> I agree with you that we should have mortgaged ourselves to the hilt.
> As you're aware, any $200K home turned into a million easily out here.

That really only matters if we want to move out of Kalifornia. If it
were up to me and I were rootless I'd move to Utah in a snap.

> Good. You understood. Most people are stupid. They only read the titles.
> And man oh man, are those titles great sounding names for the props.
> Prop titles sound like Apple advertisements - they're that well done!

There's an initiative to require proposition titles to accurately
reflect the contents. It will be interesting to see how the opponents
spin that.

> Death of a thousand cuts it is.
>
>>> You have a good deal. I happen to live, unfortunately, in one of the most
>>> expensive communities in the United States - which is also a Tier III fire
>>> zone and within sight of the San Andreas fault - so that explains things.
>>
>> Not quite a slum here, but definitely lower middle class and a freeway
>> on-ramp.
>
> I moved here "for the schools" but in reality, that's merely a euphemism.

I wish we'd known how bad the public schools were before sending the
kids to them. When we were young the only kids who went to private
schools were fantastically rich or damaged in some way.

>>> Here is what you would have seen from the sky (it's interactive).
>>> <http://thulescientific.com/san-andreas-fault-map.html>
>>
>> Wow! That must have taken a LOT of red paint!
>
> You're funny.
> Comedians see the same things everyone else does - but differently.
> Red paint! :)

I guess I missed my calling :-(

> Funny thing about California paint - did'ja ever notice the strip in the
> middle almost always has black paint underlying the yellow stripes?
>
> Back east, where I came from, you'd _never_ see that.
> I don't recall any other state doing that.
>
> I always figured there must be a reason _only_ California does it.
> Do any other states do it that you know of?

I haven't driven out of state since I noticed that. I assumed that the
black paint was to either increase contrast or cover up previous white
paint. Anything that makes it easier to see the lines during our
occasional rainstorms is good.

>>> I have in my collection a few John Dvorak books on the topic, such as
>>> Earthquake Storms: An Unauthorized Biography of the San Andreas Fault
>>>
>>> I have all the Roadside Geology guides starting with Arizona decades
>>> ago and when I moved to California I picked up the Norcal edition.
>>
>> The Russ Leadabrand books are good.
>
> Thanks for the pointer, where I had to delete my ignorance of who he was.
> <https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-12-23-mn-12126-story.html>
> "Russ Leadabrand, writer and historian chronicled CA & the Old West"
>
> My first search was with Google Scholar, which found some of his stuff.
> <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Russ+Leadabrand>

He wrote a column in the local fishwrap for a long time. Another good
geologist-writer is Robert Sharp, who caught at Caltech and took the
students on field trips around the LA area.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=sharp+geology&crid=1BCUQ4H779NS1&sprefix=sharp+geology%2Caps%2C265&ref=nb_sb_noss

>> When they
>> give city names as directions in an unfamiliar area I have more sympathy
>> for the people who shoot road signs.
>
> I've read the NHTSA traffic sign PDF ever since it was a PDF (it's only
> online now) where they're s'posed to pick the three biggest destinations.
>
> As for shooting road signs, did'ja ever drive in Texas?
> Every deer-crossing sign is riddled with buckshot.

Driving I-10 in Texas is different. Widely-spaced trucks in the right
lane, cars passing maybe 15mph faster in the left lane. Car wants to go
even faster, pulls to the right passing a lot of cars and then tries to
elbow his way back into the left lane. Sometimes he has to wait a long
time for some kind person to let him in. It's almost like a ritual that
works sometimes. I decided it was a lot less stressful as well as more
efficient to just stay in the left lane and hope that there would be
some scenery to watch pretty soon.

> Of course, out here we have _one digit_ interstates, but that's only
> because they started with 5 out west moving to 95 back east (always below
> three digits - which is important).

Nice of them to leave Highway 1 alone and not make I-5 I-1. One year we
tried to drive every single bit of Highway 1. Lots of it are just gone,
and one part was a steep dirt road. I happened to be driving when we
started to slip. I made everyone get out while I backed down with the
driver door open in case I had to jump. Turned out OK.

> Did'ja every notice that not only the mileage markers count upward and
> eastward from the state border (or the beginning of the roadway)?

We used to pay attention to that when we were calibrating the
speedometer/odometer.

> Most people don't know that in a single mile you know exactly what
> direction you're traveling from the mileage markers (or exit numbers).
>
> People are incredibly stupid.
> They know nothing about this fantastically well-designed system.

It's so well designed that we don't NEED to know about it!

>>> I ride a K1200 so I know all about what most bikers do. It's crazy.
>>> They weave. That's not actually legal but they don't get tickets for it.
>>
>> If you're fast enough and pay attention it's not that dangerous unless
>> you suddenly come upon a hunk of truck tire or 2x4 hidden by the car
>> ahead of you.
>
> Bikes are dangerous because of cagers and the weather (which is never
> really bad in California but it is nasty back east with the black ice).

Going up to Big Bear via I-15 (18 was down for a whole year due to a
really impressive washout) I hit a patch of it and slid into a snowbank.
Eventually a farmer came along and yanked me out with a rope. Just a
few feet around the corner there was a CHP guy parked. He could clearly
hear everything that was happening, including my slide. But would HE
help? Yeah, right.

> A cager taking a left turn is the most dangerous thing to a biker...

Not just bikers. "Honest, Officer, I didn't see those pedestrians
crossing with their green light..." The cow's $25K insurance didn't
cover the whole medical bill.

> Yeah. I've taken these tests too. My first one, when I was a kid, I also
> got one wrong which was similarly stupid in that they asked if you should
> stand on the pegs when you go over bump where what they meant was to
> simply shift your weight a bit lower in the center of gravity.

Simple rule: When in doubt, stand up.

> Another one, on another test, was whether to be in neutral at a light,
> where they want you always in gear - but most bikers shift into neutral
> because otherwise they'll have hands the size of a gorilla's paws.

Not necessarily. My 1960 Ducati was nasty about finding neutral, so I
never learned to do that automatically. Never needed to with the
Japanese dirtbikes.

> Given I'm German by descent, and I'm from back east by upbringing, I'd like
> to propose we ban the sale of hotdogs sans sauerkraut in California.

Sauerkraut is almost food if you have nothing else. What I liked were
the NY hot dogs with almost-caramelized onions. And the REAL frozen
custard. I've never had any ice cream that good EVER.

> Costco won't even give you those little packets of the stuff anymore.
> Must be a prop 65 sort of things...

I miss their combo pizza. Covid took away more than it knew. OTOH,
Amazon Fresh baked-in-store pizzas are better than either the Costco or
Sam's combo pizzas. Until they cut their prices in half, the pizza is
the only thing worth buying there.

> Hence I nominate the silver coloring for missing old people.
> Black coloring for missing black people.
> And rainbow coloring for missing gay people.
>
> (Do we have a rainbow alert yet?)
> (If not, just wait; we eventually will.)

On 10/21/2023 4:24 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

<snip>

> I wish we'd mortgaged ourselves up to the hilt and bought the most
> expensive home in San Marino that we could afford. Buying cheap so we
> could just walk away if we had to move across the country for work was a
> big mistake.

Yeah, when we bought our house in California had we spent another $200K
we would have a house that was worth a million dollars more than what
our house is worth now, and it would have been a newer house without all
the issues of a 1960's tract home. We could have afforded it but we
didn't want to be so house poor.

<snip>

> It's a constant battle.  They're trying to split the roll so that
> business property would no longer be protected.  People are stupid and
> this just might succeed.

No, what has happened is that businesses are now paying a much smaller
percentage of the total property tax because there are ways to transfer
ownership of a commercial property without it being reassessed. So
homeowners are subsidizing businesses.

The real change that is needed in Prop 13 is to have it apply solely to
owner-occupied residential property. Not rental property. Not commercial
office buildings that are leased out. Perhaps some exception for
businesses that own their own buildings.

> The tweak they accomplished sounds good if
> heirs actually WANT to live in the home of their deceased parent, but if
> they want to sell out immediately it's a different story.

Parts of prop 19 are good in theory since if the people inheriting the
property are turning it into an income-generating rental then they
should not be enjoying the artificially low assessment. If they live in
the house they inherited then they get a flat $1 million reduction in
assessed value versus the market value (it's a little more complex than
that, see <https://www.boe.ca.gov/prop19/#Charts>). Fixing the exemption
at a flat $1 million might not have been the best idea though.

Where the Prop 19 opponents are being disingenuous is in calling it a
"Death Tax." It is true that if adult children inherit their parents'
house, and live in it, their property taxes may go up. Which is only
fair considering that their income is likely much higher and they are
using more public services, especially public schools.

The other part of Prop 19 allows owners over a certain age to take their
Prop 13 assessed value with them anywhere in the state. This would be a
windfall to counties where the old property is then sold at a huge
increase in assessed value but could hurt counties where the owner moves to.

The reality is that the primary goal of Prop 19, which was to encourage
more turnover of properties in order to enrich the real estate industry,
did not materialize. The remaining big issue is capital gains tax. The
$500K exclusion is sufficient in many parts of the country, but not in
areas with bat-shit crazy real estate prices, and we're not talking
about a $3 million house being a mansion, but a six decade old
relatively small tract home. What would be smart would be to move every
two years and take the $500K exemption each time before the value of the
house increased by more than $500K.

Personally, I benefit enormously by Prop 13 but the reality is that it
is driving up real estate prices by limiting the supply. I own a 40 year
old townhouse that I rent out that I cannot afford to sell since I would
not get any capital gains exclusion.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

>> Good. You understood. Most people are stupid. They only read the titles.
>> And man oh man, are those titles great sounding names for the props.
>> Prop titles sound like Apple advertisements - they're that well done!
>
> There's an initiative to require proposition titles to accurately
> reflect the contents. It will be interesting to see how the opponents
> spin that.

OMG! That would be fantastic! I doubt it will ever happen. Just look at how
Steve changes the truth when he's shilling for Verizon as an example of how
the politicians use every trick in the book to earn votes of stupid people.

I always wanted to make a proposition that a proposition could like to you.
It had to tell the truth in the title.

Like the one where they needed money and they figured they could get it
from taxing the lottery, so they called it "Modernizing the lottery!".

Also I'm against the propositions that are put forth by Home Depot, such as
the one where they required every home to have a CO detector by the end of
the year (and at the same time their prices skyrocketed at Home Depot).

>> I moved here "for the schools" but in reality, that's merely a euphemism.
>
> I wish we'd known how bad the public schools were before sending the
> kids to them. When we were young the only kids who went to private
> schools were fantastically rich or damaged in some way.

Where I came from, the Catholics went to private schools (and wore plaid).

Out here, we have some of the best schools in the country, but of course,
the "best schools" is a euphemism for something else altogether you know.

>> You're funny.
>> Comedians see the same things everyone else does - but differently.
>> Red paint! :)
>
> I guess I missed my calling :-(

It made me laugh because you played beautifully upon a quite literal
meaning of what I had said.

>> I always figured there must be a reason _only_ California does it.
>> Do any other states do it that you know of?
>
> I haven't driven out of state since I noticed that. I assumed that the
> black paint was to either increase contrast or cover up previous white
> paint. Anything that makes it easier to see the lines during our
> occasional rainstorms is good.

I have asked the roads crews why they do that and they say it's for
contrast, but my only wonderment is why doesn't any other state need it?

Then again, I don't know any other state that had to be forced by the feds
to assign numbers to highway exits either - so California is just wacky.

>> My first search was with Google Scholar, which found some of his stuff.
>> <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Russ+Leadabrand>
>
> He wrote a column in the local fishwrap for a long time. Another good
> geologist-writer is Robert Sharp, who caught at Caltech and took the
> students on field trips around the LA area.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=sharp+geology

Another nice one. Thanks. He too is mostly southern California though.

BTW, field trips are what I love because almost all my knowledge is
empirically gained. I used to wonder why the California serpentinite was
green, slippery, soft and always cracked - and now I know it's due to the
fact it was like a tube of toothpaste squirted by fault movements deep into
cracks and I wondered why the Franciscian chert was so tortured and it was
like terranes place into a blender given the same tectonics.
>> As for shooting road signs, did'ja ever drive in Texas?
>> Every deer-crossing sign is riddled with buckshot.
>
> Driving I-10 in Texas is different.

Ever wonder why it's I10 south to I90 north, climbing by ten (mostly) each
time it jumps upward? Notice it's the same direction as South to North mile
markers.

Same reason it's I5 on the west and I95 on the east with the numbers
generally climbing (mostly) by 10 each time.

I would have created a number system counting up from north to south and
from east to west but they did the exact opposite of what I'd do to number.

> Widely-spaced trucks in the right
> lane, cars passing maybe 15mph faster in the left lane.

In some states, it's the law that trucks must not use the left-most lane of
a multi-lane highway but I don't think California has that blanket law.

> Car wants to go
> even faster, pulls to the right passing a lot of cars and then tries to
> elbow his way back into the left lane. Sometimes he has to wait a long
> time for some kind person to let him in.

I wondered for years why certain exits backed up miles before the exit
where I learned it was people wanting to stay left until the last possible
second - and then when they pull over to the right - they have to go SLOWER
than the traffic at right (to slip in) and so they literally STOP the fast
lane completely.

Watch it happen at the next commuter time travel you do.
Also the mile before and after a major intersection does that too, for the
same reason.

> It's almost like a ritual that
> works sometimes. I decided it was a lot less stressful as well as more
> efficient to just stay in the left lane and hope that there would be
> some scenery to watch pretty soon.

In some states, but not in California, it's the law that you must use the
rightmost available lane if it's available - where in California there is
no law that says you have to drive in the rightmost lane.

As long as you're driving at a legal speed in California, you can be in any
lane - which is NOT the law in some states which say you must stay right.
>> Of course, out here we have _one digit_ interstates, but that's only
>> because they started with 5 out west moving to 95 back east (always below
>> three digits - which is important).
>
> Nice of them to leave Highway 1 alone and not make I-5 I-1.

I think Highway 1 beat the Interstate numbering system which is Eisenhower
era, I think.

For north-south less-than-99 interstates it counts west to east, 5 to 95.
For east-west less-than-99 interstates it counts south to north, 10 to 90.

Most people are stupid so they don't realize the interstate highway compass
numbering system only applies to interstates labeled as less than 99.

The numbering system for interstates greater than 99 is (almost) completely
different. You can have ten highway 280's for example in ten states, as
long as each one skirts a city (or tries to anyway) and connects to 80.

Likewise, you can have ten 495 interstates, as long as they circle a city
(or try to) as long as they're each in different states & connect to 95.

> One year we
> tried to drive every single bit of Highway 1.

It's a ritual to drive from SF to LA on the Pacific Coast Highway.
I did it only once. Almost died. Like ten times. You know what it's like.

> Lots of it are just gone,
> and one part was a steep dirt road. I happened to be driving when we
> started to slip. I made everyone get out while I backed down with the
> driver door open in case I had to jump. Turned out OK.

Back east, there is also a highway 1 as I recall, that does the same.
But we have to differentiate the interstates from the state highways.

And they call 'em "freeways" out here (even though they are _not_ free!).
>> Did'ja every notice that not only the mileage markers count upward and
>> eastward from the state border (or the beginning of the roadway)?
>
> We used to pay attention to that when we were calibrating the
> speedometer/odometer.

Me? I used to hike a lot back east and I'd not have GPS (because this was
in the days of dead reckoning as a kid) and when I happened upon a road,
I'd learn how to read the telephone poles and mile markers to get bearings.

Even if I had a paper map with me, it would be useless until I figured out
where I was on it. (You remember those days, don't you?).

My kids? They don't know what a paper map is. They think AAA is for towing.

>> They know nothing about this fantastically well-designed system.
>
> It's so well designed that we don't NEED to know about it!

This is true even as you may have been joking. For example, all the sign
posts are designed to be breakaway - so much that they blow away in teh
wind out here.

Also all the guard rails are designed to absorb impact slowly, as are the
bright yellow sand-filled cans at exit chevrons.

Speaking of the chevrons, every bridge has them, with lines going this way
on the left (///) and this way on the right (\\\) and this in the middle
(///\\\) which, I'll bet, very few people even notice what it means.

Suffice to say even the _color_ of the signs means something, e.g.,
red/white and black/white is only used for the law, blue for services,
green for directions, etc.

People probably don't notice any of that stuff... do they?

>> Bikes are dangerous because of cagers and the weather (which is never
>> really bad in California but it is nasty back east with the black ice).
>
> Going up to Big Bear via I-15 (18 was down for a whole year due to a
> really impressive washout) I hit a patch of it and slid into a snowbank.

On 10/22/23 5:01 PM, sms wrote:
> On 10/21/2023 4:24 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I wish we'd mortgaged ourselves up to the hilt and bought the most
>> expensive home in San Marino that we could afford. Buying cheap so we
>> could just walk away if we had to move across the country for work was a
>> big mistake.
>
> Yeah, when we bought our house in California had we spent another $200K
> we would have a house that was worth a million dollars more than what
> our house is worth now, and it would have been a newer house without all
> the issues of a 1960's tract home. We could have afforded it but we
> didn't want to be so house poor.
>
> <snip>
>
>> It's a constant battle.  They're trying to split the roll so that
>> business property would no longer be protected.  People are stupid and
>> this just might succeed.
>
> No, what has happened is that businesses are now paying a much smaller
> percentage of the total property tax because there are ways to transfer
> ownership of a commercial property without it being reassessed. So
> homeowners are subsidizing businesses.

Yup. And if their property taxes increase WE, the customers, will be
paying them. Businesses don't pay taxes, the consumers do. And the
State wastes it.

> The real change that is needed in Prop 13 is to have it apply solely to
> owner-occupied residential property. Not rental property. Not commercial
> office buildings that are leased out. Perhaps some exception for
> businesses that own their own buildings.

Nope. Moreover, if the businesses with deeper pockets than ours have no
reason to fight it the homeowners' taxes will go up too. It's for the
children...

>> The tweak they accomplished sounds good if
>> heirs actually WANT to live in the home of their deceased parent, but if
>> they want to sell out immediately it's a different story.
>
> Parts of prop 19 are good in theory since if the people inheriting the
> property are turning it into an income-generating rental then they
> should not be enjoying the artificially low assessment. If they live in
> the house they inherited then they get a flat $1 million reduction in
> assessed value versus the market value (it's a little more complex than
> that, see <https://www.boe.ca.gov/prop19/#Charts>). Fixing the exemption
> at a flat $1 million might not have been the best idea though.

Sorry, I think keeping money out of the hands of governments is a good
thing.

> Where the Prop 19 opponents are being disingenuous is in calling it a
> "Death Tax." It is true that if adult children inherit their parents'
> house, and live in it, their property taxes may go up. Which is only
> fair considering that their income is likely much higher and they are
> using more public services, especially public schools.

The parents worked for it. If they want to give it to their kids to do
whatever they damn please with it that's proper. The parents already
paid a shit pot of property and income taxes; that's enough.

My grandchildren will never have the career my husband and I had. What
we leave is for THEIR retirement -- so they don't have to eat dog food
and live in a crappy apartment. Our choice.

> The other part of Prop 19 allows owners over a certain age to take their
> Prop 13 assessed value with them anywhere in the state. This would be a
> windfall to counties where the old property is then sold at a huge
> increase in assessed value but could hurt counties where the owner moves to.
>
> The reality is that the primary goal of Prop 19, which was to encourage
> more turnover of properties in order to enrich the real estate industry,
> did not materialize. The remaining big issue is capital gains tax. The
> $500K exclusion is sufficient in many parts of the country, but not in
> areas with bat-shit crazy real estate prices, and we're not talking
> about a $3 million house being a mansion, but a six decade old
> relatively small tract home. What would be smart would be to move every
> two years and take the $500K exemption each time before the value of the
> house increased by more than $500K.

What would be smart would be to sell my Kalifornia house and move to Utah.

> Personally, I benefit enormously by Prop 13 but the reality is that it
> is driving up real estate prices by limiting the supply. I own a 40 year
> old townhouse that I rent out that I cannot afford to sell since I would
> not get any capital gains exclusion.

I don't want to increase the housing supply. That just means more
crowding, more traffic, more people to use the already-insufficient
water and electricity and a significantly-decreased standard of living
for the people who pay for it all -- the current residents.

Plenty of space to the east. Build there.

--
Cheers, Bev
"I don't think they could put him in a mental hospital.
On the other hand, if he were already in, I don't think
they'd let him out." -- Greek Geek

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

> Yeah, when we bought our house in California had we spent another $200K
> we would have a house that was worth a million dollars more than what
> our house is worth now, and it would have been a newer house without all
> the issues of a 1960's tract home. We could have afforded it but we
> didn't want to be so house poor.

BTW, the prices of California homes is proof that anyone who says "You get
what you pay for" isn't understanding supply & demand.

You don't pay what something is worth in terms of its inherent value.
You have to pay what others pay for it.

And in California, there are lots of people who want what you want.

>> It's a constant battle.� They're trying to split the roll so that
>> business property would no longer be protected.� People are stupid and
>> this just might succeed.
>
> No, what has happened is that businesses are now paying a much smaller
> percentage of the total property tax because there are ways to transfer
> ownership of a commercial property without it being reassessed. So
> homeowners are subsidizing businesses.

Heh heh heh... the consummate politician Steve always is...

> The real change that is needed in Prop 13 is to have it apply solely to
> owner-occupied residential property. Not rental property. Not commercial
> office buildings that are leased out. Perhaps some exception for
> businesses that own their own buildings.

Again, with property taxes already in the tens of thousands per year per
home, the only thing the pols care about is raising your taxes further.

Luckily I get a break on the _extra_ taxes they levy for the school system,
but even then you have to beg for it every single year like you're gonna
get younger or something.

They make it hard on purpose because they only care about your money.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

> I think keeping money out of the hands of governments is a good
> thing.

The problem with California politicians is they don't think like that.
They just want you to bend over and savagely rape you like Steve wants to.

Everything Steve says is to increase taxation.
It's rape.

Forced rape, no less.

If not rape, then simply death of a thousand cuts.
It's what California pols do.

Tax you to death.

On 10/22/2023 11:24 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 10/22/23 5:01 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 10/21/2023 4:24 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I wish we'd mortgaged ourselves up to the hilt and bought the most
>>> expensive home in San Marino that we could afford. Buying cheap so we
>>> could just walk away if we had to move across the country for work
>>> was a big mistake.
>>
>> Yeah, when we bought our house in California had we spent another $200K
>> we would have a house that was worth a million dollars more than what
>> our house is worth now, and it would have been a newer house without all
>> the issues of a 1960's tract home. We could have afforded it but we
>> didn't want to be so house poor.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> It's a constant battle.  They're trying to split the roll so that
>>> business property would no longer be protected.  People are stupid
>>> and this just might succeed.
>>
>> No, what has happened is that businesses are now paying a much smaller
>> percentage of the total property tax because there are ways to transfer
>> ownership of a commercial property without it being reassessed. So
>> homeowners are subsidizing businesses.
>
> Yup.  And if their property taxes increase WE, the customers, will be
> paying them.  Businesses don't pay taxes, the consumers do.  And the
> State wastes it.

Prices for goods are set by the market. Businesses can't increase prices
just because their cost of production goes up because their competitors
will not. If Apple's property taxes go up they can't just raise the
prices of all their products.

<snip>

> The parents worked for it.  If they want to give it to their kids to do
> whatever they damn please with it that's proper.  The parents already
> paid a shit pot of property and income taxes;  that's enough.

Nothing in Prop 19 stops the parents from giving their house, with no
mortgage, to their adult children. What it changes is that the adult
children no longer get the artificially low assessed value. Remember,
Prop 13 was sold to voters as "preventing seniors from losing their
homes because of the increase in assessed value." The 2% limit is
reasonable and it was expected that when the seniors sold the property
it would be reassessed at market value. It was not expected that the
artificially low property tax would remain in perpetuity with those that
inherit the property being subsidized by everyone else.

> My grandchildren will never have the career my husband and I had.  What
> we leave is for THEIR retirement -- so they don't have to eat dog food
> and live in a crappy apartment.  Our choice.

Great. They get a free house with no mortgage. All they have to pay is
the appropriate property tax to pay for roads, schools, parks, sewage, etc.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 10/23/23 8:56 AM, sms wrote:
> On 10/22/2023 11:24 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 10/22/23 5:01 PM, sms wrote:
>>> On 10/21/2023 4:24 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> I wish we'd mortgaged ourselves up to the hilt and bought the most
>>>> expensive home in San Marino that we could afford. Buying cheap so we
>>>> could just walk away if we had to move across the country for work
>>>> was a big mistake.
>>>
>>> Yeah, when we bought our house in California had we spent another $200K
>>> we would have a house that was worth a million dollars more than what
>>> our house is worth now, and it would have been a newer house without all
>>> the issues of a 1960's tract home. We could have afforded it but we
>>> didn't want to be so house poor.
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> It's a constant battle.  They're trying to split the roll so that
>>>> business property would no longer be protected.  People are stupid
>>>> and this just might succeed.
>>>
>>> No, what has happened is that businesses are now paying a much smaller
>>> percentage of the total property tax because there are ways to transfer
>>> ownership of a commercial property without it being reassessed. So
>>> homeowners are subsidizing businesses.
>>
>> Yup.  And if their property taxes increase WE, the customers, will be
>> paying them.  Businesses don't pay taxes, the consumers do.  And the
>> State wastes it.
>
> Prices for goods are set by the market. Businesses can't increase prices
> just because their cost of production goes up because their competitors
> will not. If Apple's property taxes go up they can't just raise the
> prices of all their products.

Sure they can! Apple more than most due to the loyalty factor.
>
> <snip>
>
>> The parents worked for it.  If they want to give it to their kids to do
>> whatever they damn please with it that's proper.  The parents already
>> paid a shit pot of property and income taxes;  that's enough.
>
> Nothing in Prop 19 stops the parents from giving their house, with no
> mortgage, to their adult children. What it changes is that the adult
> children no longer get the artificially low assessed value. Remember,
> Prop 13 was sold to voters as "preventing seniors from losing their
> homes because of the increase in assessed value." The 2% limit is
> reasonable and it was expected that when the seniors sold the property
> it would be reassessed at market value. It was not expected that the
> artificially low property tax would remain in perpetuity with those that
> inherit the property being subsidized by everyone else.

How property is assessed is a simple choice by the assessors. They can
do whatever they damn please. It seems unreasonable to have to pay a tax
every year on something you bought ONCE. Apply this rule to everything
else you buy. They'd do it if the record-keeping weren't such a bitch.

This is a religious issue. Roughly half of our income goes to taxes of
one sort or another. I think about this in April and try to forget
about it the rest of the year. Our quality of life has fallen, along
with the quality of public services. Kalifornia's state income tax used
to be roughly 10% of the Federal take. Now it's roughly half. First
sales tax I remember is 3%. Now it's over 10%. And the only actual
improvement we have is the deteriorating interstates. Everything else
has been provided by industry. Think about that.

If they weren't governments they'd be thieves.

--
Cheers, Bev
"If your mechanic claims that he stands behind his brake jobs, keep
looking. You want to find one willing to stand in front of them."

-- B. Ward

On 2023-10-23 15:30, The Real Bev wrote:

> Sure they can!  Apple more than most due to the loyalty factor.

Funny how quality, integration, performance and reliability breed that.

The fiends!

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 10/22/2023 5:07 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

<snip>

> There's an initiative to require proposition titles to accurately
> reflect the contents. It will be interesting to see how the opponents
> spin that.

That would be wonderful if it could be enforced.

Right now, the State Attorney General writes the title and summary for
State Ballot Measures. This is supposed to prevent the legislature from
crafting titles and summaries that favor their campaign contributors.

It doesn't work. The AG does not write accurate titles and summaries. I
am involved in one initiative that was supposed to go on the 2024 ballot
to restore local control and to stop the legislature from selling out to
real estate interests, see <https://ourneighborhoodvoices.com/>. But the
attorney general, apparently under pressure from various entities, wrote
an inaccurate title and summary so there would be no chance of this
initiative passing given that title and summary.

I met one of the San Francisco supervisors a few years ago and was
talking to him about what is transpiring with the Democratic State
Legislature. He called them "Real Estate Republicans" even though they
are all Democrats. They sell out to real estate investors, big time. If
you're familiar with the RHNA process which forces cities to zone for
far more housing than is needed, by using false data that predicts
future population trends, that is all promoted by the legislature to
benefit their campaign contributors. Read "Inside Game: California
YIMBY, Scott Wiener, and Big Tech’s Troubling Housing Push"
<https://www.housingisahumanright.org/inside-game-california-yimby-scott-wiener-and-big-tech-troubling-housing-push/>
and "What Is a YIMBY? (Hint: It’s Not Good)"
<https://www.housingisahumanright.org/what-is-a-yimby-hint-its-not-good/>

In my own city, we had our City Attorney write an accurate title and
summary for a local ballot measure. We were satisfied with it. But the
City Council forced him to change it, adding a "big lie," in order to
favor a local developer. It was close, but the false title and summary
could not be overcome, voters could just not be made aware of the facts.

Sometimes the government is like Usenet or other forums where you have
people with a vested interest that they advocate for, ignoring all the
factual data. You see this with some of our favorite trolls like "Arlen
Holder," who promulgates almost non-stop misinformation for known
reasons though at least on Usenet no one actually believes it!

The other issue with State Ballot Measures is that they are only allowed
to address a single issue. Prop 19 violated this by including the
changes to inherited property with the ability to take your Prop 13
assessed value anywhere in the state, and including "wildfires,"
resulting in an extremely misleading title "The Home Protection for
Seniors, Severely Disabled, Families, and Victims of Wildfire or Natural
Disasters Act," while not mentioning the changes to assessed value for
inherited property. I voted no on Prop 19 because any proposition put
forth by the California Association of Realtors is suspect, though the
change to being able to turn inherited owner-occupied property into
income property while retaining the Prop 13 assessed value is long overdue.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 10/23/23 14:30, The Real Bev wrote:
> If they weren't governments they'd be thieves.

"Steal an apple, and you're a thief. Steal a city, and you're a statesman"
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

>> There's an initiative to require proposition titles to accurately
>> reflect the contents. It will be interesting to see how the opponents
>> spin that.
>
> That would be wonderful if it could be enforced.

For those reading this discussion among the Californians who might not know
how the "proposition" process works, there are two fundamental components.

1. In many governments outside of California, the people can't propose
& vote on laws but in California, _anyone_ can propose any law they want
and foist a vote on that law - which becomes legally binding if won.

2. Never - and I must repeat - *NEVER* does the title of the law bear
any resemblance to the truth about what that law actually proposes.

An example is one I already discussed which is "Modernize the lottery!",
which had _nothing_ to do whatsoever with anything but taxing proceeds.

Although the most egregious are the abortion laws, such as "Protect our
children!" when they are forcing kids to inform their parents and in some
cases inform the government _before_ they're allowed to have an abortion.

In summary, lest you be confused....
*NEVER is a California proposition what it says it is*
--
A proposition's success is proportionate to the stupididy of the voter.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote

>> Sure they can!� Apple more than most due to the loyalty factor.
>
> Funny how quality, integration, performance and reliability breed that.

While it's clear Alan Browne drank the punch, a normal person would realize
a few things that any adult should know... such as the meaning of the word
"commodity"

HINT: *A phone is a commodity*.
They're all the same. They all do the same things.
(Although an iPhone does less than Android, it doesn't matter for this
purpose of defining what the price of the object will be & the demand.)

*Both an iPhone and an Android phone are commodities.*

My free Galaxy, for example, does more than any iPhone ever could do,
and yet it too is simply a commodity. It makes phone calls & texts people.

The job of Apple is to fool people like Alan Browne into thinking otherwise
(where that is the sole job of the marketing organization inside Apple).

*MARKETING will tell you it's not just a phone, it's YELLOW!*

Where else can you get that particular shade of a phone but at Apple!
And only for the iPhone 14 too.

So now the phone is no longer a commodity, but a specialty item.
For stupid people like Alan Browne, that is.

HINT: This is basic stuff they teach you in undergraduate marketing.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

> And my very own daughter is one of them. I thought I raised her better.
>
> I think you stick with the system you started with unless there's some
> overwhelming reason to change. The first iPhones were better than the
> competition, and Daughter isn't interested in the actual technology

If all someone does with a phone is talk, text & play games, then an iPhone
is just as good as Android at that but the phone is still a commodity.

Apple marketing's sole just is to make stupid people "think" that an iPhone
is a specialty item - which let's admit - they're very good at doing.

It's exactly why they "differentiate" with "Titanium" & "YELLOW" colors.

Stupid people like Alan believe that if you paint that pork belly commodity
yellow, then it's no longer a commodity - but now it's a speciality item.
--
The whole point of Usenet is to find people who know more than you do.
And to contribute to the overall tribal knowledge value of the newsgroup.

On 2023-10-24 16:34, Wally J wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>
>> And my very own daughter is one of them. I thought I raised her better.
>>
>> I think you stick with the system you started with unless there's some
>> overwhelming reason to change. The first iPhones were better than the
>> competition, and Daughter isn't interested in the actual technology
>
> If all someone does with a phone is talk, text & play games, then an iPhone
> is just as good as Android at that but the phone is still a commodity.
>
> Apple marketing's sole just is to make stupid people "think" that an iPhone
> is a specialty item - which let's admit - they're very good at doing.

"Apple marketing's sole just"?

Try again in English, bright boy.

>
> It's exactly why they "differentiate" with "Titanium" & "YELLOW" colors.
>
> Stupid people like Alan believe that if you paint that pork belly commodity
> yellow, then it's no longer a commodity - but now it's a speciality item.

LOL!

I believe that Apple's products work exceedingly well for consumers.

I know this in large part by paying attention to how little need for
support I get from my Apple-using clients.