Peter Moylan hat am 17.10.2023 um 14:13 geschrieben:
> There were some French sounds that I didn't master until I had done
> "language lab" exercises that compared my pronunciation with that of a
> native speaker. That wasn't until I had done a university-level subject,
> because my high school didn't have that sort of equipment. Some learners
> of a second language never get access to such training.

I don't know about Australia, but I'd never call learning a foreign
language at high school "high level". Definitely not in Ttaly or in Germany.

About universities, I can't say anything how it is in Italy today, but
over 40 years ago people from my school for translators and interpreters
joked about people studying English or German at an Italian university
that they could talk a lot about English or German literature from the
18th or 19th century in Italian, but they'd be unable to order a beer in
a pub or a beer-house.

But perhaps we have different definitions of "high level". Mine is: I
can do my daily business in German, e.g. talk to a plumber (next week),
my physiotherapist (tomorrow) or a retired bishop (three hours ago),
without any stress and without listeners discussing my accent.
About the linguistic situation in Germany, 37 years ago I was told: "You
must be a foreigner. You have no regional accent at all."

Before anyone comments on my mistakes in written English:
1) That's the main reason why I'm reading and writing here. To use it
and get corrected.
2) My move to Berlin almost 40 years was the best decision in my life
overall, but it was definitely not a very wise idea for the purpose of
keeping up with my English and improving it.

Silvano hat am 17.10.2023 um 23:27 geschrieben:
> 2) My move to Berlin almost 40 years _ago_ was the best decision in my life
> overall, but it was definitely not a very wise idea for the purpose of
> keeping up with my English and improving it.

Missing word corrected.

On 2023-10-17 21:27:56 +0000, Silvano said:

> Peter Moylan hat am 17.10.2023 um 14:13 geschrieben:
>> There were some French sounds that I didn't master until I had done
>> "language lab" exercises that compared my pronunciation with that of a
>> native speaker. That wasn't until I had done a university-level subject,
>> because my high school didn't have that sort of equipment. Some learners
>> of a second language never get access to such training.
>
> I don't know about Australia, but I'd never call learning a foreign
> language at high school "high level". Definitely not in Ttaly or in Germany.
>
> About universities, I can't say anything how it is in Italy today, but
> over 40 years ago people from my school for translators and interpreters
> joked about people studying English or German at an Italian university
> that they could talk a lot about English or German literature from the
> 18th or 19th century in Italian, but they'd be unable to order a beer in
> a pub or a beer-house.
>
> But perhaps we have different definitions of "high level". Mine is: I
> can do my daily business in German, e.g. talk to a plumber (next week),
> my physiotherapist (tomorrow) or a retired bishop (three hours ago),
> without any stress and without listeners discussing my accent.
> About the linguistic situation in Germany, 37 years ago I was told: "You
> must be a foreigner. You have no regional accent at all."

Her English is too good, he said, Which clearly indicates that she is
foreign. Whereas others are instructed in their native language English
people aren't. And although she may have studied with an expert
Di'lectician and grammarian, I can tell that she was born Hungarian!
(My Fair Lady)
>
> Before anyone comments on my mistakes in written English:
> 1) That's the main reason why I'm reading and writing here. To use it
> and get corrected.
> 2) My move to Berlin almost 40 years was the best decision in my life
> overall, but it was definitely not a very wise idea for the purpose of
> keeping up with my English and improving it.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 2023-10-18 06:56:03 +0000, Silvano said:

> Silvano hat am 17.10.2023 um 23:27 geschrieben:
>> 2) My move to Berlin almost 40 years _ago_ was the best decision in my life
>> overall, but it was definitely not a very wise idea for the purpose of
>> keeping up with my English and improving it.
>
> Missing word corrected.

My move to Marseilles almost 40 years _ago_ was the best decision in my
life overall, but it was definitely not a very wise idea for the
purpose of keeping up with my Spanish and improving it. (Nonetheless,
my Spanish did improve, because I heard it every day from my wife and
daughter.)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

> Peter Moylan hat am 17.10.2023 um 14:13 geschrieben:
> > There were some French sounds that I didn't master until I had done
> > "language lab" exercises that compared my pronunciation with that of a
> > native speaker. That wasn't until I had done a university-level subject,
> > because my high school didn't have that sort of equipment. Some learners
> > of a second language never get access to such training.
>
> I don't know about Australia, but I'd never call learning a foreign
> language at high school "high level". Definitely not in Ttaly or in Germany.
>
> About universities, I can't say anything how it is in Italy today, but
> over 40 years ago people from my school for translators and interpreters
> joked about people studying English or German at an Italian university
> that they could talk a lot about English or German literature from the
> 18th or 19th century in Italian, but they'd be unable to order a beer in
> a pub or a beer-house.
>
> But perhaps we have different definitions of "high level". Mine is: I
> can do my daily business in German, e.g. talk to a plumber (next week),
> my physiotherapist (tomorrow) or a retired bishop (three hours ago),
> without any stress and without listeners discussing my accent.
> About the linguistic situation in Germany, 37 years ago I was told: "You
> must be a foreigner. You have no regional accent at all."

Like a Swede speaking English?

Jan

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:26:09 PM UTC+5:30, Silvano wrote:
> Silvano hat am 17.10.2023 um 23:27 geschrieben:
> > 2) My move to Berlin almost 40 years _ago_ was the best decision in my life
> > overall, but it was definitely not a very wise idea for the purpose of
> > keeping up with my English and improving it.
> Missing word corrected.
>
If you moved from England:
My move to Berlin almost 40 years ago was the best decision in my life
overall, but was not conducive to maintaining and improving my command
of English.

If you moved from Italy:
My move to Berlin almost 40 years ago was the best decision in my life
overall, but did nothing to facilitate maintaining and improving my command
of English.