On 18/10/23 01:43, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Wed, 18 Oct 2023 00:47:31 +1100, Peter Moylan escribió:
>> On 17/10/23 23:39, Hibou wrote:
>>
>>> "It was I with whom he was desirous of establishing
>>> communication, sir" - Wodehouse, "Right ho, Jeeves".
>>>
>>> I with whom? Yes, it has to be so.
>>
>> Many of us -- I am one -- have given up on "whom" in object
>> position, but we still use it after a preposition.
>
> Is that because "it feels like an ablative"?

No, because I've never studied a language that has an ablative. It's
purely from hearing lots of educated English speakers using things like
"to whom".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, at 09:53:10, Peter Moylan posted:
>On 18/10/23 01:43, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El Wed, 18 Oct 2023 00:47:31 +1100, Peter Moylan escribió:
>>> On 17/10/23 23:39, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> "It was I with whom he was desirous of establishing
>>>> communication, sir" - Wodehouse, "Right ho, Jeeves".
>>>>
>>>> I with whom? Yes, it has to be so.
>>>
>>> Many of us -- I am one -- have given up on "whom" in object
>>> position, but we still use it after a preposition.
>>
>> Is that because "it feels like an ablative"?
>
>No, because I've never studied a language that has an ablative. It's
>purely from hearing lots of educated English speakers using things like
>"to whom".

Lazily copied and pasted, though I think the source punctuation (if not
more) must have gang a-gley:
>
No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

It's late here: I'm Donne now.
--
Paul W

On 18/10/2023 01:37, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, at 09:53:10, Peter Moylan posted:
>> On 18/10/23 01:43, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>> El Wed, 18 Oct 2023 00:47:31 +1100, Peter Moylan escribió:
>>>> On 17/10/23 23:39, Hibou wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "It was I with whom he was desirous of establishing
>>>>> communication, sir" - Wodehouse, "Right ho, Jeeves".
>>>>>
>>>>> I with whom? Yes, it has to be so.
>>>>
>>>> Many of us -- I am one -- have given up on "whom" in object
>>>> position, but we still use it after a preposition.
>>>
>>> Is that because "it feels like an ablative"?
>>
>> No, because I've never studied a language that has an ablative. It's
>> purely from hearing lots of educated English speakers using things like
>> "to whom".
>
> Lazily copied and pasted, though I think the source punctuation (if not
> more) must have gang a-gley:
>>
> No man is an island,
> Entire of itself.
> Each is a piece of the continent,
> A part of the main.
> If a clod be washed away by the sea,
> Europe is the less.
> As well as if a promontory were.
> As well as if a manor of thine own
> Or of thine friend's were.
> Each man's death diminishes me,
> For I am involved in mankind.
> Therefore, send not to know
> For whom the bell tolls,
> It tolls for thee.
>
> It's late here: I'm Donne now.

And here is the Olde English Version:

No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man
is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine;
if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe
is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as
well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine
owne were; any mans death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankinde;
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

So, gang a-gley in punctuation and spellinge.

Le 18/10/2023 à 00:37, Paul Wolff a écrit :
>
> Lazily copied and pasted, though I think the source punctuation (if not
> more) must have gang a-gley:
>
> No man is an island,
> Entire of itself.
> Each is a piece of the continent,
> A part of the main.
> If a clod be washed away by the sea,
> Europe is the less.
> As well as if a promontory were.
> As well as if a manor of thine own
> Or of thine friend's were.
> Each man's death diminishes me,
> For I am involved in mankind.
> Therefore, send not to know
> For whom the bell tolls,
> It tolls for thee.
>
> It's late here: I'm Donne now.

If I understand that atoll, well, yes, it's true, we need other people.

The last man on Earth would find it a soulless place - and it'd be
especially hard on him if he were a misanthropist.

On 2023-10-17 23:37:16 +0000, Paul Wolff said:

> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, at 09:53:10, Peter Moylan posted:
>> On 18/10/23 01:43, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>> El Wed, 18 Oct 2023 00:47:31 +1100, Peter Moylan escribió:
>>>> On 17/10/23 23:39, Hibou wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "It was I with whom he was desirous of establishing
>>>>> communication, sir" - Wodehouse, "Right ho, Jeeves".
>>>>>
>>>>> I with whom? Yes, it has to be so.
>>>>
>>>> Many of us -- I am one -- have given up on "whom" in object
>>>> position, but we still use it after a preposition.
>>>
>>> Is that because "it feels like an ablative"?
>>
>> No, because I've never studied a language that has an ablative. It's
>> purely from hearing lots of educated English speakers using things like
>> "to whom".
>
> Lazily copied and pasted, though I think the source punctuation (if not
> more) must have gang a-gley:
>>
> No man is an island,
> Entire of itself.
> Each is a piece of the continent,
> A part of the main.
> If a clod be washed away by the sea,
> Europe is the less.
> As well as if a promontory were.
> As well as if a manor of thine own
> Or of thine friend's were.
> Each man's death diminishes me,
> For I am involved in mankind.
> Therefore, send not to know
> For whom the bell tolls,
> It tolls for thee.
>
> It's late here: I'm Donne now.

So you're on your Hemingway?

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 18/10/2023 09:47, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-10-17 23:37:16 +0000, Paul Wolff said:
>
>> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, at 09:53:10, Peter Moylan posted:
>>> On 18/10/23 01:43, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>> El Wed, 18 Oct 2023 00:47:31 +1100, Peter Moylan escribió:
>>>>> On 17/10/23 23:39, Hibou wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "It was I with whom he was desirous of establishing
>>>>>> communication, sir" - Wodehouse, "Right ho, Jeeves".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I with whom? Yes, it has to be so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many of us -- I am one -- have given up on "whom" in object
>>>>> position, but we still use it after a preposition.
>>>>
>>>> Is that because "it feels like an ablative"?
>>>
>>> No, because I've never studied a language that has an ablative. It's
>>> purely from hearing lots of educated English speakers using things like
>>> "to whom".
>>
>> Lazily copied and pasted, though I think the source punctuation (if
>> not more) must have gang a-gley:
>>>
>> No man is an island,
>> Entire of itself.
>> Each is a piece of the continent,
>> A part of the main.
>> If a clod be washed away by the sea,
>> Europe is the less.
>> As well as if a promontory were.
>> As well as if a manor of thine own
>> Or of thine friend's were.
>> Each man's death diminishes me,
>> For I am involved in mankind.
>> Therefore, send not to know
>> For whom the bell tolls,
>> It tolls for thee.
>>
>> It's late here: I'm Donne now.
>
> So you're on your Hemingway?
>
>

Orwell that ends well.

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:47:33 AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-10-17 23:37:16 +0000, Paul Wolff said:
>
> > On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, at 09:53:10, Peter Moylan posted:
> >> On 18/10/23 01:43, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >>> El Wed, 18 Oct 2023 00:47:31 +1100, Peter Moylan escribió:
> >>>> On 17/10/23 23:39, Hibou wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "It was I with whom he was desirous of establishing
> >>>>> communication, sir" - Wodehouse, "Right ho, Jeeves".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I with whom? Yes, it has to be so.
> >>>>
> >>>> Many of us -- I am one -- have given up on "whom" in object
> >>>> position, but we still use it after a preposition.
> >>>
> >>> Is that because "it feels like an ablative"?
> >>
> >> No, because I've never studied a language that has an ablative. It's
> >> purely from hearing lots of educated English speakers using things like
> >> "to whom".
> >
> > Lazily copied and pasted, though I think the source punctuation (if not
> > more) must have gang a-gley:
> >>
> > No man is an island,
> > Entire of itself.
> > Each is a piece of the continent,
> > A part of the main.
> > If a clod be washed away by the sea,
> > Europe is the less.
> > As well as if a promontory were.
> > As well as if a manor of thine own
> > Or of thine friend's were.
> > Each man's death diminishes me,
> > For I am involved in mankind.
> > Therefore, send not to know
> > For whom the bell tolls,
> > It tolls for thee.
> >
> > It's late here: I'm Donne now.
> So you're on your Hemingway?
>
Poor bugger has no arms.

bill

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 3:26:13 AM UTC-4, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:47:33 AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2023-10-17 23:37:16 +0000, Paul Wolff said:
> >
> > > On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, at 09:53:10, Peter Moylan posted:
> > >> On 18/10/23 01:43, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> > >>> El Wed, 18 Oct 2023 00:47:31 +1100, Peter Moylan escribió:
> > >>>> On 17/10/23 23:39, Hibou wrote:

> > >>>>> "It was I with whom he was desirous of establishing
> > >>>>> communication, sir" - Wodehouse, "Right ho, Jeeves".
> > >>>>> I with whom? Yes, it has to be so.
> > >>>> Many of us -- I am one -- have given up on "whom" in object
> > >>>> position, but we still use it after a preposition.
> > >>> Is that because "it feels like an ablative"?
> > >> No, because I've never studied a language that has an ablative. It's
> > >> purely from hearing lots of educated English speakers using things like
> > >> "to whom".
> > > Lazily copied and pasted, though I think the source punctuation (if not
> > > more) must have gang a-gley:
> > > No man is an island,
> > > Entire of itself.
> > > Each is a piece of the continent,
> > > A part of the main.
> > > If a clod be washed away by the sea,
> > > Europe is the less.
> > > As well as if a promontory were.
> > > As well as if a manor of thine own
> > > Or of thine friend's were.
> > > Each man's death diminishes me,
> > > For I am involved in mankind.
> > > Therefore, send not to know
> > > For whom the bell tolls,
> > > It tolls for thee.
> > > It's late here: I'm Donne now.
> > So you're on your Hemingway?
>
> Poor bugger has no arms.

And never knew where his next meal was coming from.

bil...@shaw.ca blurted out:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:47:33 AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> wrote:
>> On 2023-10-17 23:37:16 +0000, Paul Wolff said:

>>> Lazily copied and pasted, though I think the source punctuation (if not
>>> more) must have gang a-gley:
>>>>
>>> No man is an island,
>>> Entire of itself.
>>> Each is a piece of the continent,
>>> A part of the main.
>>> If a clod be washed away by the sea,
>>> Europe is the less.
>>> As well as if a promontory were.
>>> As well as if a manor of thine own
>>> Or of thine friend's were.
>>> Each man's death diminishes me,
>>> For I am involved in mankind.
>>> Therefore, send not to know
>>> For whom the bell tolls,
>>> It tolls for thee.
>>>
>>> It's late here: I'm Donne now.
>> So you're on your Hemingway?
>>
> Poor bugger has no arms.
>

See the old man, eh?

/dps

--
Why would I want to be alone with my thoughts?
Have you heard some of the shit that comes out of my mouth?
-- the World Wide Web