Madhu <enometh@meer.net> wrote:

> * (J. J. Lodder) <1qmuscd.y3dxvqlv2ya7N%nospam @de-ster.demon.nl> :
> Wrote on Fri, 5 Jan 2024 10:44:24 +0100:
> > Well, 'All you Zombies' is -much- shorter than 'By His Bootstraps'.
> > (by about a factor five)
> > So Heinlein may have thought that he could, and should,
> > boil down the story to the absolute minimum
> > to exhibit the time paradoxes in the clearest possible form.
> >
> > BTW, in these parts 'self-plagiarism'
> > has been promoted into a scientific vice.
> > An author who published too much was accused of it.
>
> IIRC the Wikipedia page on Raymond Chandler had "Cannibalizing" to
> describe what he did (i.e. rehash his earlier short stories into later
> novels, even preserving dialog). [I got bit, I read the short stories
> first, and except in one case (or two) the I thought they were better
> than the later work]

What's wrong with that? Much of the detective stuff,
and also SF, horror, etc. was first published in magazines,
sometimes in instalments.
Those loose pieces were republished in anthologies,
and/or reworked into book-length novels.

Asimov's Foundation Trilogy for example
appeared as separate short stories/novellas over many years,
before being bundled in the books,

Jan

Jan

On Friday, January 5, 2024 at 6:12:51 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Madhu <eno...@meer.net> wrote:
>
> > * (J. J. Lodder) <1qmuscd.y3dxvqlv2ya7N%nospam @de-ster.demon.nl> :
> > Wrote on Fri, 5 Jan 2024 10:44:24 +0100:
> > > Well, 'All you Zombies' is -much- shorter than 'By His Bootstraps'.
> > > (by about a factor five)
> > > So Heinlein may have thought that he could, and should,
> > > boil down the story to the absolute minimum
> > > to exhibit the time paradoxes in the clearest possible form.
> > >
> > > BTW, in these parts 'self-plagiarism'
> > > has been promoted into a scientific vice.
> > > An author who published too much was accused of it.
> >
> > IIRC the Wikipedia page on Raymond Chandler had "Cannibalizing" to
> > describe what he did (i.e. rehash his earlier short stories into later
> > novels, even preserving dialog). [I got bit, I read the short stories
> > first, and except in one case (or two) the I thought they were better
> > than the later work]
> What's wrong with that? Much of the detective stuff,
> and also SF, horror, etc. was first published in magazines,
> sometimes in instalments.
> Those loose pieces were republished in anthologies,
> and/or reworked into book-length novels.
>
> Asimov's Foundation Trilogy for example
> appeared as separate short stories/novellas over many years,
> before being bundled in the books,

In sf circles, a book like that is called a "fix-up".

--
Jerry Friedman

On Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:19:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 05/01/24 06:26, lar3ryca wrote:
> > On 2024-01-02 09:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> I was happy to reread "'--All You Zombies--'"
> >> https://gist.github.com/defunkt/759182/
> >
> > Thanks for that link. I had not previously read it. Best of all, I
> > read in the comments that the film /Predestination/ was based on that
> > story. I watched Predestination last night, and liked it a lot. They
> > managed to hide the plot twist fairly well, and added a little more
> > at the end, rounding out the story well.
> >
> >> But I decline to reread "By His Bootstraps" or "The Door into
> >> Summer", and I absolutely decline to reread /The Cat Who Walks
> >> Through Walls/, which I don't remember at all.
> >
> > I don't blame you. I gave up on Heinlein many years ago. /All you
> > Zombies/ made me think I should find some more short stories and give
> > them a try.
>
> I seem to be out of step here. When I read "All You Zombies" I was
> disappointed. I felt as if Heinlein had said to himself "Well, 'By His
> Bootstraps' went down well, so let's rewrite the same story with a few
> different twists." In other words, I felt that he was recycling a good
> idea that only works once.
>
> "By His Bootstraps" is a classic of SF. "All You Zombies" is, in my
> opinion, self-plagiarism.

You're not alone. But to me, "By His Bootstraps" is the rough draft and
" '--All You Zombies--' " is the finished version.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-01-05 00:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 05/01/24 06:26, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2024-01-02 09:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> I was happy to reread "'--All You Zombies--'"
>>> https://gist.github.com/defunkt/759182/
>>
>> Thanks for that link. I had not previously read it. Best of all, I
>> read in the comments that the film /Predestination/ was based on that
>> story. I watched Predestination last night, and liked it a lot. They
>> managed to hide the plot twist fairly well, and added a little more
>> at the end, rounding out the story well.
>>
>>> But I decline to reread "By His Bootstraps" or "The Door into
>>> Summer", and I absolutely decline to reread /The Cat Who Walks
>>> Through Walls/, which I don't remember at all.
>>
>> I don't blame you. I gave up on Heinlein many years ago. /All you
>> Zombies/ made me think I should find some more short stories and give
>>  them a try.
>
> I seem to be out of step here. When I read "All You Zombies" I was
> disappointed. I felt as if Heinlein had said to himself "Well, 'By His
> Bootstraps' went down well, so let's rewrite the same story with a few
> different twists." In other words, I felt that he was recycling a good
> idea that only works once.
>
> "By His Bootstraps" is a classic of SF. "All You Zombies" is, in my
> opinion, self-plagiarism.

I never did read 'By His Bootstraps', but I just downloaded it, and will
read it. I very much doubt that I will enjoy it as much. I really enjoy
a well-written short story, well novellas and novels that make me wish
there was more are in the minority.

--
Let's end the apostrophe abuse's.

On 2024-01-05 08:56, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:19:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 05/01/24 06:26, lar3ryca wrote:
>>> On 2024-01-02 09:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> I was happy to reread "'--All You Zombies--'"
>>>> https://gist.github.com/defunkt/759182/
>>>
>>> Thanks for that link. I had not previously read it. Best of all, I
>>> read in the comments that the film /Predestination/ was based on that
>>> story. I watched Predestination last night, and liked it a lot. They
>>> managed to hide the plot twist fairly well, and added a little more
>>> at the end, rounding out the story well.
>>>
>>>> But I decline to reread "By His Bootstraps" or "The Door into
>>>> Summer", and I absolutely decline to reread /The Cat Who Walks
>>>> Through Walls/, which I don't remember at all.
>>>
>>> I don't blame you. I gave up on Heinlein many years ago. /All you
>>> Zombies/ made me think I should find some more short stories and give
>>> them a try.
>>
>> I seem to be out of step here. When I read "All You Zombies" I was
>> disappointed. I felt as if Heinlein had said to himself "Well, 'By His
>> Bootstraps' went down well, so let's rewrite the same story with a few
>> different twists." In other words, I felt that he was recycling a good
>> idea that only works once.
>>
>> "By His Bootstraps" is a classic of SF. "All You Zombies" is, in my
>> opinion, self-plagiarism.
>
> You're not alone. But to me, "By His Bootstraps" is the rough draft and
> " '--All You Zombies--' " is the finished version.

That's the best description of it yet!

--
Why do psychics have to ask you for your name?

On 2024-01-05 00:56, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:26:55 AM UTC-8, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2024-01-02 09:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> I was happy to reread "'--All You Zombies--'"
>>> https://gist.github.com/defunkt/759182/
>>
>> Thanks for that link. I had not previously read it.
>> Best of all, I read in the comments that the film /Predestination/ was
>> based on that story. I watched Predestination last night, and liked it a
>> lot. They managed to hide the plot twist fairly well, and added a little
>> more at the end, rounding out the story well.
>>> But I decline to reread "By His Bootstraps" or "The Door into Summer", and
>>> I absolutely decline to reread /The Cat Who Walks Through Walls/, which
>>> I don't remember at all.
>> I don't blame you. I gave up on Heinlein many years ago. /All you
>> Zombies/ made me think I should find some more short stories and give
>> them a try.
>
> Early Heinlein was one thing. He was one of a handful of writers inventing
> a genre. Later Heinlein was the fantasies of a horny old man who thought
> he was irresistible to beautiful young women.

That's exactly why I gave up on him.

>> Sixty billion gigabits can do much. It even does windows.
>> ~ Fred Pohl, Beyond the Blue Event Horizon, 1980
>
> I loved Pohl, especially the Heechee saga.

AOL

> Come to think of it, I foresee a hunt
> through my bookcases to see how close to a complete set I have. But I fear
> the worst. I used to give my most of my favourite books away because I wanted
> everyone to read them.

A friend who lived in Orange County used to give me SF books (by
snail-mail), and asked me to pass them on to someone else when I
finished them. I did as he requested, and passed on some to him,
checking with him first to make sure he either didn't already have them
or that he had read them.

My best repayment was to send him signed (personalized) copies of
'Neuromancer' and 'Count Zero'.

--
Don’t worry about what most people think.
They don’t do it very often.

Jerry Friedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, January 5, 2024 at 6:12:51?AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Madhu <eno...@meer.net> wrote:
> >
> > > * (J. J. Lodder) <1qmuscd.y3dxvqlv2ya7N%nospam @de-ster.demon.nl> :
> > > Wrote on Fri, 5 Jan 2024 10:44:24 +0100:
> > > > Well, 'All you Zombies' is -much- shorter than 'By His Bootstraps'.
> > > > (by about a factor five)
> > > > So Heinlein may have thought that he could, and should,
> > > > boil down the story to the absolute minimum
> > > > to exhibit the time paradoxes in the clearest possible form.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, in these parts 'self-plagiarism'
> > > > has been promoted into a scientific vice.
> > > > An author who published too much was accused of it.
> > >
> > > IIRC the Wikipedia page on Raymond Chandler had "Cannibalizing" to
> > > describe what he did (i.e. rehash his earlier short stories into later
> > > novels, even preserving dialog). [I got bit, I read the short stories
> > > first, and except in one case (or two) the I thought they were better
> > > than the later work]
> > What's wrong with that? Much of the detective stuff,
> > and also SF, horror, etc. was first published in magazines,
> > sometimes in instalments.
> > Those loose pieces were republished in anthologies,
> > and/or reworked into book-length novels.
> >
> > Asimov's Foundation Trilogy for example
> > appeared as separate short stories/novellas over many years,
> > before being bundled in the books,
>
> In sf circles, a book like that is called a "fix-up".

Yes, and some retconning may be required.
Asimov was abit crazy about that,
with his insistence late in life that all he ever wrote
realy hangs together as one coherent whole,

Jan

On Saturday, January 6, 2024 at 2:38:14 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, January 5, 2024 at 6:12:51?AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > Madhu <eno...@meer.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > * (J. J. Lodder) <1qmuscd.y3dxvqlv2ya7N%nospam @de-ster.demon.nl> :
> > > > Wrote on Fri, 5 Jan 2024 10:44:24 +0100:
> > > > > Well, 'All you Zombies' is -much- shorter than 'By His Bootstraps'.
> > > > > (by about a factor five)
> > > > > So Heinlein may have thought that he could, and should,
> > > > > boil down the story to the absolute minimum
> > > > > to exhibit the time paradoxes in the clearest possible form.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, in these parts 'self-plagiarism'
> > > > > has been promoted into a scientific vice.
> > > > > An author who published too much was accused of it.
> > > >
> > > > IIRC the Wikipedia page on Raymond Chandler had "Cannibalizing" to
> > > > describe what he did (i.e. rehash his earlier short stories into later
> > > > novels, even preserving dialog). [I got bit, I read the short stories
> > > > first, and except in one case (or two) the I thought they were better
> > > > than the later work]
> > > What's wrong with that? Much of the detective stuff,
> > > and also SF, horror, etc. was first published in magazines,
> > > sometimes in instalments.
> > > Those loose pieces were republished in anthologies,
> > > and/or reworked into book-length novels.
> > >
> > > Asimov's Foundation Trilogy for example
> > > appeared as separate short stories/novellas over many years,
> > > before being bundled in the books,
> >
> > In sf circles, a book like that is called a "fix-up".
> Yes, and some retconning may be required.
> Asimov was abit crazy about that,
> with his insistence late in life that all he ever wrote
> realy hangs together as one coherent whole,

Poor guy had dementia, probably as a result of HIV.

But you mean "almost all he ever wrote", right? Not, say, "Homo
Sol" and whatever the sequel is called, or the Lucky Starr books,
or "Jokester", or some others.

--
Jerry Friedman

lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

> On 2024-01-05 00:56, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:26:55?AM UTC-8, lar3ryca wrote:
> >> On 2024-01-02 09:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>> I was happy to reread "'--All You Zombies--'"
> >>> https://gist.github.com/defunkt/759182/
> >>
> >> Thanks for that link. I had not previously read it.
> >> Best of all, I read in the comments that the film /Predestination/ was
> >> based on that story. I watched Predestination last night, and liked it a
> >> lot. They managed to hide the plot twist fairly well, and added a little
> >> more at the end, rounding out the story well.
> >>> But I decline to reread "By His Bootstraps" or "The Door into Summer", and
> >>> I absolutely decline to reread /The Cat Who Walks Through Walls/, which
> >>> I don't remember at all.
> >> I don't blame you. I gave up on Heinlein many years ago. /All you
> >> Zombies/ made me think I should find some more short stories and give
> >> them a try.
> >
> > Early Heinlein was one thing. He was one of a handful of writers inventing
> > a genre. Later Heinlein was the fantasies of a horny old man who thought
> > he was irresistible to beautiful young women.
>
> That's exactly why I gave up on him.

I remember giving up on Heinlein halfway through
'Stranger in a Strange Land".
It got laid aside somehow, and I never saw the second half,
or any other Heinlein,

Jan

On Sunday, January 7, 2024 at 6:09:34 AM UTC-8, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
> > On 2024-01-05 00:56, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > > On Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:26:55?AM UTC-8, lar3ryca wrote:
> > >> On 2024-01-02 09:05, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > >>> I was happy to reread "'--All You Zombies--'"
> > >>> https://gist.github.com/defunkt/759182/
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for that link. I had not previously read it.
> > >> Best of all, I read in the comments that the film /Predestination/ was
> > >> based on that story. I watched Predestination last night, and liked it a
> > >> lot. They managed to hide the plot twist fairly well, and added a little
> > >> more at the end, rounding out the story well.
> > >>> But I decline to reread "By His Bootstraps" or "The Door into Summer", and
> > >>> I absolutely decline to reread /The Cat Who Walks Through Walls/, which
> > >>> I don't remember at all.
> > >> I don't blame you. I gave up on Heinlein many years ago. /All you
> > >> Zombies/ made me think I should find some more short stories and give
> > >> them a try.
> > >
> > > Early Heinlein was one thing. He was one of a handful of writers inventing
> > > a genre. Later Heinlein was the fantasies of a horny old man who thought
> > > he was irresistible to beautiful young women.
> >
> > That's exactly why I gave up on him.
> I remember giving up on Heinlein halfway through
> 'Stranger in a Strange Land".
> It got laid aside somehow, and I never saw the second half,
> or any other Heinlein,
>
Stranger in a Strange Land was my turning point for Heinlein as well.
It was the first Heinlein novel that offended me for its preoccupation with
the aging author's sexual fantasies. I read one or two more Heinleins after that,
but he never got away from those fantasies, at least in the several books I read
before finally giving up.

bill