(The Tyger by William Blake) -- Could someone point me towards an
[Authentic] pronunciation version (recording, commentary) which makes
EYE rhyme with Symmetry?

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43687/the-tyger

The Tyger by William Blake | Poetry Foundation

( Launch Audio in a New Window )

BY WILLIAM BLAKE

Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;

What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

HenHanna wrote:

> (The Tyger by William Blake) -- Could someone point me towards an
> [Authentic] pronunciation version (recording, commentary) which makes
> EYE rhyme with Symmetry?

> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43687/the-tyger

> The Tyger by William Blake | Poetry Foundation

> ( Launch Audio in a New Window )

> BY WILLIAM BLAKE

> Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
> In the forests of the night;

> What immortal hand or eye,
> Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

Was the last vowel in Symmetry... fully like EYE, RYE ?
or more like (today's) RAY ?

* (HenHanna) <8d29ce3e08100480d5978e52d9c14785 @www.novabbs.com> :
Wrote on Wed, 21 Feb 2024 03:24:56 +0000:
> HenHanna wrote:
>> (The Tyger by William Blake) -- Could someone point me towards an
>> [Authentic] pronunciation version (recording, commentary) which
>> makes EYE rhyme with Symmetry?
>> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43687/the-tyger
>
>> The Tyger by William Blake | Poetry Foundation (
>> Launch Audio in a New Window ) BY WILLIAM BLAKE
>
>> Tyger Tyger, burning bright, In the forests of the night; What
>> immortal hand or eye, Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
>
> Was the last vowel in Symmetry... fully like EYE, RYE ?
> or more like (today's) RAY ?

This line was used to introduce two concepts - that of "poetic license"
and "the rhetorical question" to us kids in 7th or 8th grade, [taught
out of "Panorama a Selection of Poems,Sselected by J.W.Peterson, A.E.T
Barrow, and J.Futse, (eds), Oxford University Press]

I'm not sure if "poetic license" is the right term, I understand it goes
the other way: to change the grammar to fit the rythym or rhyme, in this
example the rhyme is broken

But if the intent is to create an effect on the reader or listener (a
jar, expecting something to rhyme with eye AI (FIVE) but hearing I (SIT)
-- I think it is equally served by pronouncing symmetry to rhyme with
the AI (FIVE) vowel, which is how I would declaim it)

In article <m37ciymozq.fsf@leonis4.robolove.meer.net>,
enometh@meer.net says...
>
> * (HenHanna) <8d29ce3e08100480d5978e52d9c14785 @www.novabbs.com> :
> Wrote on Wed, 21 Feb 2024 03:24:56 +0000:
> > HenHanna wrote:
> >> (The Tyger by William Blake) -- Could someone point me towards an
> >> [Authentic] pronunciation version (recording, commentary) which
> >> makes EYE rhyme with Symmetry?
> >> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43687/the-tyger
> >
> >> The Tyger by William Blake | Poetry Foundation (
> >> Launch Audio in a New Window ) BY WILLIAM BLAKE
> >
> >> Tyger Tyger, burning bright, In the forests of the night; What
> >> immortal hand or eye, Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
> >
> > Was the last vowel in Symmetry... fully like EYE, RYE ?
> > or more like (today's) RAY ?
>
> This line was used to introduce two concepts - that of "poetic license"
> and "the rhetorical question" to us kids in 7th or 8th grade, [taught
> out of "Panorama a Selection of Poems,Sselected by J.W.Peterson, A.E.T
> Barrow, and J.Futse, (eds), Oxford University Press]

Your teacher could have mentioned eye-rhymes, (aka
"sight-rhymes")an English language device Blake would have
known well from Shakespeare and others; and expect his
educated audience to recognise. Even dead poets enjoyed a
joke/double entendre based on the
variability/inconsistency of our language.
https://www.tckpublishing.com/eye-rhyme/

This particular instance by Blake in Tyger, is clearly
giving the reader a knowing wink and heavy nudge,

"Here's an awful (fearful) example of eye/ear symmetry,
it's as old as the hills (immortal), so I know you'll get
it".

Shakespeare also used words/eye rhymes knowing perfectly
well some audience/readers would see/hear/interpret an
alternative pronunciation (or meaning).. a trick learned
from Chaucer. Still in use today in songs, theatre and TV
sitcoms.

Janet

* Janet <MPG.404003e720d0814989bd4@news.individual.net> :
Wrote on Wed, 21 Feb 2024 12:58:47 -0000:
> In article <m37ciymozq.fsf@leonis4.robolove.meer.net>,
> enometh@meer.net says...
>> This line was used to introduce two concepts - that of "poetic license"
>> and "the rhetorical question" to us kids in 7th or 8th grade, [taught
>> out of "Panorama a Selection of Poems,Sselected by J.W.Peterson, A.E.T
>> Barrow, and J.Futse, (eds), Oxford University Press]
>
> Your teacher could have mentioned eye-rhymes, (aka
> "sight-rhymes")an English language device Blake would have
> known well from Shakespeare and others; and expect his
> educated audience to recognise. Even dead poets enjoyed a
> joke/double entendre based on the
> variability/inconsistency of our language.
>
> https://www.tckpublishing.com/eye-rhyme/
>
> This particular instance by Blake in Tyger, is clearly
> giving the reader a knowing wink and heavy nudge,
>
> "Here's an awful (fearful) example of eye/ear symmetry,
> it's as old as the hills (immortal), so I know you'll get
> it".
>
> Shakespeare also used words/eye rhymes knowing perfectly
> well some audience/readers would see/hear/interpret an
> alternative pronunciation (or meaning).. a trick learned
> from Chaucer. Still in use today in songs, theatre and TV
> sitcoms.

I wonder how long has "eye rhyme" has been in vogue.

Brittanica has

eye rhyme, in poetry, an imperfect rhyme in which two words are
spelled similarly but pronounced differently (such as move and
love, bough and though, come and home, and laughter and
daughter). Some of these (such as flood and brood) are referred
to as historical rhymes because at one time they probably had
the same pronunciation.

can we confirm symmetry did not ear-rhyme with eye when W.Blake was
writing?

On 2/21/2024 4:24 AM, HenHanna wrote:
> HenHanna wrote:
>
>
>> (The Tyger by William Blake) -- Could someone point me towards an
>> [Authentic] pronunciation version (recording, commentary) which makes
>> EYE rhyme with Symmetry?
>
>
>
>> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43687/the-tyger
>
>>                     The Tyger by William Blake | Poetry Foundation
>
>>                   ( Launch Audio in a New Window )
>
>>                             BY    WILLIAM    BLAKE
>
>> Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
>> In the forests of the night;
>
>> What immortal hand or eye,
>> Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
>
>
>  Was the last vowel in Symmetry...   fully like EYE,  RYE ?
>                                    or more like (today's)   RAY  ?

It should be like Eye or Rye.

How do you actually pronounce symmetry (outside this poem)?
I would pronounce it /ˈsɪmɪtɹi/
(does usenet do IPA?)

On 14/04/24 05:06, Kyonshi wrote:
> On 2/21/2024 4:24 AM, HenHanna wrote:
>> HenHanna wrote:
>>
>>> (The Tyger by William Blake) -- Could someone point me towards an
>>> [Authentic] pronunciation version (recording, commentary) which
>>> makes EYE rhyme with Symmetry?

"Eye" is one of those words whose pronunciation varied with dialect.
Etymonline tells me that there is still a modern dialect in which the
plural is "een". It's not too difficult to imagine the word being
pronounced "ee" at some place and time.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-04-13 19:06:47 +0000, Kyonshi said:

> On 2/21/2024 4:24 AM, HenHanna wrote:
>> HenHanna wrote:
>>
>>
>>> (The Tyger by William Blake) -- Could someone point me towards an
>>> [Authentic] pronunciation version (recording, commentary) which makes
>>> EYE rhyme with Symmetry?
>>
>>
>>
>>> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43687/the-tyger
>>
>>>                     The Tyger by William Blake | Poetry Foundation
>>
>>>                   ( Launch Audio in a New Window )
>>
>>>                             BY    WILLIAM    BLAKE
>>
>>> Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
>>> In the forests of the night;
>>
>>> What immortal hand or eye,
>>> Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
>>
>>
>>  Was the last vowel in Symmetry...   fully like EYE,  RYE ?
>>                                    or more like (today's)   RAY  ?
>
> It should be like Eye or Rye.
>
> How do you actually pronounce symmetry (outside this poem)?
> I would pronounce it /ˈsɪmɪtɹi/
> (does usenet do IPA?)

Try the Wikipedia article called "Kirshenbaum". Evan Kirshenbaum was
once a regular here.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 14/04/24 05:06, Kyonshi wrote:
>> On 2/21/2024 4:24 AM, HenHanna wrote:
>>> HenHanna wrote:
>>>
>>>> (The Tyger by William Blake) -- Could someone point me towards an
>>>> [Authentic] pronunciation version (recording, commentary) which
>>>> makes EYE rhyme with Symmetry?

> "Eye" is one of those words whose pronunciation varied with dialect.
> Etymonline tells me that there is still a modern dialect in which the
> plural is "een". It's not too difficult to imagine the word being
> pronounced "ee" at some place and time.

The first word that Sir Partick read
Sae loud, loud laucht he;
The neist word that Sir Patrick read
The tear blindit his ee.

https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poem/sir-patrick-spens/

STS warning:

Her brow is like the snow-drift,
Her throat is like the swan,
Her face it is the fairest,
That 'er the sun shone on.
That 'er the sun shone on -
And dark blue is her e'e,
And for bonnie Annie Laurie
I'd lay me down and dee.

Though a Scots pronunciation doesn't tell you anything about Shakespeare.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 14/04/24 23:54, jerryfriedman wrote:
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> On 14/04/24 05:06, Kyonshi wrote:
>>> On 2/21/2024 4:24 AM, HenHanna wrote:
>>>> HenHanna wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> (The Tyger by William Blake) -- Could someone point me towards an
>>>>> [Authentic] pronunciation version (recording, commentary) which
>>>>> makes EYE rhyme with Symmetry?
>
>> "Eye" is one of those words whose pronunciation varied with dialect.
>> Etymonline tells me that there is still a modern dialect in which the
>> plural is "een". It's not too difficult to imagine the word being
>> pronounced "ee" at some place and time.
>
> The first word that Sir Partick read
> Sae loud, loud laucht he;
> The neist word that Sir Patrick read
> The tear blindit his ee.
>
> https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poem/sir-patrick-spens/
>
>
> STS warning:
>
> Her brow is like the snow-drift,
> Her throat is like the swan,
> Her face it is the fairest,
> That 'er the sun shone on.
> That 'er the sun shone on -
> And dark blue is her e'e,
> And for bonnie Annie Laurie
> I'd lay me down and dee.
>
> Though a Scots pronunciation doesn't tell you anything about Shakespeare.

Thank you. It doesn't, but at least it shows that the pronunciation exists.

I have a great-great-aunt called Annie Laurie.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW