1) My younger sister is twelve and my older is fifteen.

Could the speaker be over fifteen years of age?
Could the speaker be under twelve years of age?

2) My younger sister is in middle school.

Could the speaker be younger than the person he designates as his or her younger sister?
He or she would have two sisters, both older than him or her.

--

Gratefully,
Navi

Lost in the Twilight Zone of the English language
Interested in strange structures
Obsessed with ambiguity

Le 26/02/2024 à 00:45, navi a écrit :
>
> 1) My younger sister is twelve and my older is fifteen.
>
> Could the speaker be over fifteen years of age?
> Could the speaker be under twelve years of age?
>
> 2) My younger sister is in middle school.
>
> Could the speaker be younger than the person he designates as his or her
> younger sister?
> He or she would have two sisters, both older than him or her.

I think that, without prior information, these are ambiguous. Younger
and older than whom? The speaker or the second sister?

Sunday, Hibou observed:
> Le 26/02/2024 à 00:45, navi a écrit :
>>
>> 1) My younger sister is twelve and my older is fifteen.
>>
>> Could the speaker be over fifteen years of age?
>> Could the speaker be under twelve years of age?
>>
>> 2) My younger sister is in middle school.
>>
>> Could the speaker be younger than the person he designates as his or her
>> younger sister?
>> He or she would have two sisters, both older than him or her.
>
> I think that, without prior information, these are ambiguous. Younger and
> older than whom? The speaker or the second sister?

It's quite normal to refer to an older sister and a younger sister
whenever there are at least two sisters, whether the comparison is with
the speaker or not. It's a clue about birth order, but it leaves open
the question as to the proper slot for the speaker ... there are three
choices, and not enough information to choose. We do have definite
information about the relative ages of two sisters.

/dps

--
Let's celebrate Macaronesia

Hibou wrote:

> Le 26/02/2024 à 00:45, navi a écrit :
>>
>> 1) My younger sister is twelve and my older is fifteen.
>>
>> Could the speaker be over fifteen years of age?
>> Could the speaker be under twelve years of age?
>>
>> 2) My younger sister is in middle school.
>>
>> Could the speaker be younger than the person he designates as his or her
>> younger sister?
>> He or she would have two sisters, both older than him or her.

> I think that, without prior information, these are ambiguous. Younger
> and older than whom? The speaker or the second sister?

I feel that in practice, in the parts of the U.S. where I've lived, they're
not ambiguous. The comparison is normally to the speaker. Someone
might mean a comparison to the other sister, but that would occasion
misunderstanding and quite possibly a correction.

My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger. When calling
my sister, I've occasionally said, "This is your older younger brother."

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-02-26 08:39, jerryfriedman wrote:
> Hibou wrote:
>
>> Le 26/02/2024 à 00:45, navi a écrit :
>>>
>>> 1) My younger sister is twelve and my older is fifteen.
>>>
>>> Could the speaker be over fifteen years of age?
>>> Could the speaker be under twelve years of age?
>>>
>>> 2) My younger sister is in middle school.
>>>
>>> Could the speaker be younger than the person he designates as his or
>>> her younger sister?
>>> He or she would have two sisters, both older than him or her.
>
>> I think that, without prior information, these are ambiguous. Younger
>> and older than whom? The speaker or the second sister?
>
> I feel that in practice, in the parts of the U.S. where I've lived, they're
> not ambiguous.  The comparison is normally to the speaker.  Someone
> might mean a comparison to the other sister, but that would occasion
> misunderstanding and quite possibly a correction.

That's the way I would say or understand it.
I think that would be the case for most Canadians.

> My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger.  When calling
> my sister, I've occasionally said, "This is your older younger brother."
>

--
If you jog in a jogging suit, lounge in lounging pyjamas, and smoke in
a smoking jacket, WHY would anyone want to wear a windbreaker??

On Mon, 26 Feb 2024 14:39:48 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
(jerryfriedman) wrote:

>Hibou wrote:
>
>> Le 26/02/2024 à 00:45, navi a écrit :
>>>
>>> 1) My younger sister is twelve and my older is fifteen.
>>>
>>> Could the speaker be over fifteen years of age?
>>> Could the speaker be under twelve years of age?
>>>
>>> 2) My younger sister is in middle school.
>>>
>>> Could the speaker be younger than the person he designates as his or her
>>> younger sister?
>>> He or she would have two sisters, both older than him or her.
>
>> I think that, without prior information, these are ambiguous. Younger
>> and older than whom? The speaker or the second sister?
>
>I feel that in practice, in the parts of the U.S. where I've lived, they're
>not ambiguous. The comparison is normally to the speaker. Someone
>might mean a comparison to the other sister, but that would occasion
>misunderstanding and quite possibly a correction.
>
>My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger. When calling
>my sister, I've occasionally said, "This is your older younger brother."

- And it can be useful to say which brother you are.

Many years ago, I realized that my mother and three sisters
on the phone all sounded remarkable alike, especially given
just a word or two like Hello. (Different accents help, given
a sentence or two.)

That surprised me, I think, something like I was surprised
when I realized that other people thought my two younger
sisters looked like twins -- so different looking, to me.
Fifteen months apart, but the younger was taller for her age.
I can add this: many years later, when sorting out photographs
when Mom was paring down how much she should take when
she moved in with my sister, there were pictures where we
asked Mom, Is this Nancy, or Mary? She could tell us, but,
when I asked, she confessed that for a few of them, she
knew because she remembered the occasion.

--
Rich Ulrich

Le 26/02/2024 à 14:39, jerryfriedman a écrit :
> Hibou wrote:
>> Le 26/02/2024 à 00:45, navi a écrit :
>>>
>>> 1) My younger sister is twelve and my older is fifteen.
>>>
>>> Could the speaker be over fifteen years of age?
>>> Could the speaker be under twelve years of age?
>>>
>>> 2) My younger sister is in middle school.
>>>
>>> Could the speaker be younger than the person he designates as his or
>>> her younger sister?
>>> He or she would have two sisters, both older than him or her.
>
>> I think that, without prior information, these are ambiguous. Younger
>> and older than whom? The speaker or the second sister?
>
> I feel that in practice, in the parts of the U.S. where I've lived, they're
> not ambiguous.  The comparison is normally to the speaker.  Someone
> might mean a comparison to the other sister, but that would occasion
> misunderstanding and quite possibly a correction.

All right, I agree that that is the default interpretation. Otherwise,
one would say something like "the younger of my [two] sisters...".

> My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger.

Une aînée, un cadet, et un benjamin. For once it's true that French has
a word for it (not that they're any help here).

> When calling
> my sister, I've occasionally said, "This is your older younger brother."

Le 26/02/2024 à 17:47, Rich Ulrich a écrit :
>
> Many years ago, I realized that my mother and three sisters
> on the phone all sounded remarkable alike, especially given
> just a word or two like Hello. (Different accents help, given
> a sentence or two.) [...]

Many years ago, I realised that I sounded like my departmental manager,
when someone I phoned mistook me for him. I was tempted to exploit
this... but never did. Perhaps that was wise.

* Rich Ulrich <vpiptip94c6tcskvjjjv25o0k5om10s1bq@4ax.com> :
Wrote on Mon, 26 Feb 2024 12:47:54 -0500:
> On Mon, 26 Feb 2024 14:39:48 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
> (jerryfriedman) wrote:
>>I feel that in practice, in the parts of the U.S. where I've lived,
>>they're not ambiguous. The comparison is normally to the speaker.
>>Someone might mean a comparison to the other sister, but that would
>>occasion misunderstanding and quite possibly a correction.
>>
>>My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger. When calling
>>my sister, I've occasionally said, "This is your older younger
>>brother."
>
> - And it can be useful to say which brother you are.

This expression was cited as a sentence in Tamil that had no equivalent
statement in English

There being a 2 syllable colloquial word for the phrase (~) "which
ordinal number" in that language

"which ordinal-number-son are you of your parents"

On 27/02/24 17:18, Hibou wrote:

>> My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger.
>
> Une aînée, un cadet, et un benjamin. For once it's true that French
> has a word for it (not that they're any help here).

My francophone ex-wife was shocked when friends called their second
child Benjamin, while having the clear intention to have a third child.

The friends were following a different logic. Their children's names
start with A, B, and C.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan wrote:

> My francophone ex-wife was shocked when friends called their second
> child Benjamin, while having the clear intention to have a third child.

I have a neighbour called Benjamin. Nobody in Denmark cares about it if
a Benjamin has younger siblings, but I'll ask him one day.

> The friends were following a different logic. Their children's names
> start with A, B, and C.

My late exwife had three brothers. The four children's names are Arne,
Margit, Erik and Niels. Not that the family was particlularly religious.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Madhu wrote:

> * Rich Ulrich <vpiptip94c6tcskvjjjv25o0k5om10s1bq@4ax.com> :
> Wrote on Mon, 26 Feb 2024 12:47:54 -0500:
>> On Mon, 26 Feb 2024 14:39:48 +0000, jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
>> (jerryfriedman) wrote:
>>>I feel that in practice, in the parts of the U.S. where I've lived,
>>>they're not ambiguous. The comparison is normally to the speaker.
>>>Someone might mean a comparison to the other sister, but that would
>>>occasion misunderstanding and quite possibly a correction.
>>>
>>>My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger. When calling
>>>my sister, I've occasionally said, "This is your older younger
>>>brother."
>>
>> - And it can be useful to say which brother you are.

> This expression was cited as a sentence in Tamil that had no equivalent
> statement in English

> There being a 2 syllable colloquial word for the phrase (~) "which
> ordinal number" in that language

> "which ordinal-number-son are you of your parents"

A problem speakers of many Asian languages have with English. My
attempt to popularize "Whichth" hasn't even existed, let alone gotten
anywhere.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-02-27 01:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 27/02/24 17:18, Hibou wrote:
>
>>> My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger.
>>
>> Une aînée, un cadet, et un benjamin. For once it's true that French
>> has a word for it (not that they're any help here).
>
> My francophone ex-wife was shocked when friends called their second
> child Benjamin, while having the clear intention to have a third child.
>
> The friends were following a different logic. Their children's names
> start with A, B, and C.

My wife's parents used 'D' for all their children;
Donald, Diane, Darlene, Deborah, and Delphine (in order of oldest to
youngest0.

--
When I was young there were only 25 letters in the alphabet.
Nobody knew Y.

On 28/02/24 04:25, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2024-02-27 01:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 27/02/24 17:18, Hibou wrote:
>>
>>>> My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger.
>>>
>>> Une aînée, un cadet, et un benjamin. For once it's true that
>>> French has a word for it (not that they're any help here).
>>
>> My francophone ex-wife was shocked when friends called their
>> second child Benjamin, while having the clear intention to have a
>> third child.
>>
>> The friends were following a different logic. Their children's
>> names start with A, B, and C.
>
> My wife's parents used 'D' for all their children; Donald, Diane,
> Darlene, Deborah, and Delphine (in order of oldest to youngest0.

In the town where I grew up, the Denshaw family had 13 children, all of
whom had names starting with 'D'. Dalma and Denzel were in my class.

It brings to mind the Dr Seuss story "Too many Daves".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Thank you all very much,

In both Armenian and Persian too we can ask 'whichth child of the family are you'. I think 'whichth' is a good word and has to come into full existence. It seems to have a shadowy one at present. Actually, I had never heard it.

--

Gratefuly,
Navi

Lost in the Twilight Zone of the English language
Interested in strange structures on the margins of grammaticality
Obsessed with ambiguity

On 28/02/24 12:35, navi wrote:
> Thank you all very much,
>
> In both Armenian and Persian too we can ask 'whichth child of the
> family are you'. I think 'whichth' is a good word and has to come
> into full existence. It seems to have a shadowy one at present.
> Actually, I had never heard it.

You hadn't heard it because most native speakers of English would not
think of using "whichth" in that sort of question. Instead we might ask
something like "Where in the family did you come?"

Actually, we'd be even more likely to ask the question indirectly, for
example "Were [1] you the youngest?". The person being asked would then
reply with something like "No, I was the second oldest".

[1] Past tense, because it's a question about the person's childhood.
Once we reach adulthood, birth order usually stops being a matter of
interest.

I understand, of course, that such details might be more important in
other cultures.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Tuesday, Peter Moylan pointed out that ...
> On 28/02/24 12:35, navi wrote:
>> Thank you all very much,
>>
>> In both Armenian and Persian too we can ask 'whichth child of the
>> family are you'. I think 'whichth' is a good word and has to come
>> into full existence. It seems to have a shadowy one at present.
>> Actually, I had never heard it.
>
> You hadn't heard it because most native speakers of English would not
> think of using "whichth" in that sort of question. Instead we might ask
> something like "Where in the family did you come?"
>
> Actually, we'd be even more likely to ask the question indirectly, for
> example "Were [1] you the youngest?". The person being asked would then
> reply with something like "No, I was the second oldest".
>
> [1] Past tense, because it's a question about the person's childhood.
> Once we reach adulthood, birth order usually stops being a matter of
> interest.

It's of interest to me whether I'm talking about my older brother or my
younger brother, and somewhat that I'm the caboose of the family.
Therapists are probably interested in the latter spot.

> I understand, of course, that such details might be more important in
> other cultures.

There are still plenty of families, AIUI, where birthorder matters at
parental demise, even as late as when the children have become parents.

Not just royal families.

/dps

--
https://xkcd.com/2704

After serious thinking lar3ryca wrote :
> On 2024-02-27 01:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 27/02/24 17:18, Hibou wrote:
>>
>>>> My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger.
>>>
>>> Une aînée, un cadet, et un benjamin. For once it's true that French
>>> has a word for it (not that they're any help here).
>>
>> My francophone ex-wife was shocked when friends called their second
>> child Benjamin, while having the clear intention to have a third child.
>>
>> The friends were following a different logic. Their children's names
>> start with A, B, and C.
>
> My wife's parents used 'D' for all their children;
> Donald, Diane, Darlene, Deborah, and Delphine (in order of oldest to
> youngest0.

Ah ... they missed sorting the names by numer of letters.

-d

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

Peter Moylan presented the following explanation :
> On 28/02/24 04:25, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2024-02-27 01:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 27/02/24 17:18, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>>> My sister is older than I am and my brother is younger.
>>>>
>>>> Une aînée, un cadet, et un benjamin. For once it's true that
>>>> French has a word for it (not that they're any help here).
>>>
>>> My francophone ex-wife was shocked when friends called their
>>> second child Benjamin, while having the clear intention to have a
>>> third child.
>>>
>>> The friends were following a different logic. Their children's
>>> names start with A, B, and C.
>>
>> My wife's parents used 'D' for all their children; Donald, Diane,
>> Darlene, Deborah, and Delphine (in order of oldest to youngest0.
>
> In the town where I grew up, the Denshaw family had 13 children, all of
> whom had names starting with 'D'. Dalma and Denzel were in my class.
>
> It brings to mind the Dr Seuss story "Too many Daves".

There were only 5 in my 5th grade class.

/dps "coed, about 25 souls"

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

Le 27/02/2024 à 21:43, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 28/02/24 04:25, lar3ryca wrote:
>>
>> My wife's parents used 'D' for all their children; Donald, Diane,
>> Darlene, Deborah, and Delphine (in order of oldest to youngest).
>
> In the town where I grew up, the Denshaw family had 13 children, all of
> whom had names starting with 'D'. Dalma and Denzel were in my class.
>
> It brings to mind the Dr Seuss story "Too many Daves".

I think it's better if everyone in a household has a unique initial.
Then letters are not opened by the wrong person, and privacy is preserved.

It's true that this is relevant only to what's shoved through the box by
the postie - also, one can add the person's first name to remove
ambiguity. This must be done carefully, IMHO. Our energy company writes
to me as "Dear <first name>", which unasked-for informality makes me
bridle a bit. English first names are a bit like the French tutoiement;
both should be used with care.

In article <mn.dca27e824fb7d4be.127094@snitoo>,
snidely.too@gmail.com says...
>
> On Tuesday, Peter Moylan pointed out that ...
> > On 28/02/24 12:35, navi wrote:
> >> Thank you all very much,
> >>
> >> In both Armenian and Persian too we can ask 'whichth child of the
> >> family are you'. I think 'whichth' is a good word and has to come
> >> into full existence. It seems to have a shadowy one at present.
> >> Actually, I had never heard it.
> >
> > You hadn't heard it because most native speakers of English would not
> > think of using "whichth" in that sort of question. Instead we might ask
> > something like "Where in the family did you come?"
> >
> > Actually, we'd be even more likely to ask the question indirectly, for
> > example "Were [1] you the youngest?". The person being asked would then
> > reply with something like "No, I was the second oldest".
> >
> > [1] Past tense, because it's a question about the person's childhood.
> > Once we reach adulthood, birth order usually stops being a matter of
> > interest.
>
> It's of interest to me whether I'm talking about my older brother or my
> younger brother, and somewhat that I'm the caboose of the family.

I had to look up what "caboose of the family" means.

Janet

> Therapists are probably interested in the latter spot.
>
> > I understand, of course, that such details might be more important in
> > other cultures.
>
> There are still plenty of families, AIUI, where birthorder matters at
> parental demise, even as late as when the children have become parents.
>
> Not just royal families.
>
> /dps

In article <urmr0q$3okb4$2@dont-email.me>, vpaereru-
unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid says...
>
> Le 27/02/2024 à 21:43, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> > On 28/02/24 04:25, lar3ryca wrote:
> >>
> >> My wife's parents used 'D' for all their children; Donald, Diane,
> >> Darlene, Deborah, and Delphine (in order of oldest to youngest).
> >
> > In the town where I grew up, the Denshaw family had 13 children, all of
> > whom had names starting with 'D'. Dalma and Denzel were in my class.
> >
> > It brings to mind the Dr Seuss story "Too many Daves".
>
> I think it's better if everyone in a household has a unique initial.
> Then letters are not opened by the wrong person, and privacy is preserved.

Where's the fun in that?

Janet (sister of John and Joy, daughter of James).

Peter Moylan wrote:

> Actually, we'd be even more likely to ask the question indirectly, for
> example "Were [1] you the youngest?". The person being asked would then
> reply with something like "No, I was the second oldest".
>
> [1] Past tense, because it's a question about the person's childhood.
> Once we reach adulthood, birth order usually stops being a matter of
> interest.

For certain values of "stops". Some psycologists think that your
position in the group of siblings influences your personality.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On Tue, 27 Feb 2024 19:46:54 -0800
Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
> Therapists are probably interested in the latter spot.
--^^^^^^^^^^
I often worry about words like that; I'm now retired, so no longer
unionised.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

> In article <mn.dca27e824fb7d4be.127094@snitoo>,
> snidely.too@gmail.com says...
> >
> > On Tuesday, Peter Moylan pointed out that ...
> > > On 28/02/24 12:35, navi wrote:
> > >> Thank you all very much,
> > >>
> > >> In both Armenian and Persian too we can ask 'whichth child of the
> > >> family are you'. I think 'whichth' is a good word and has to come
> > >> into full existence. It seems to have a shadowy one at present.
> > >> Actually, I had never heard it.
> > >
> > > You hadn't heard it because most native speakers of English would not
> > > think of using "whichth" in that sort of question. Instead we might ask
> > > something like "Where in the family did you come?"
> > >
> > > Actually, we'd be even more likely to ask the question indirectly, for
> > > example "Were [1] you the youngest?". The person being asked would then
> > > reply with something like "No, I was the second oldest".
> > >
> > > [1] Past tense, because it's a question about the person's childhood.
> > > Once we reach adulthood, birth order usually stops being a matter of
> > > interest.
> >
> > It's of interest to me whether I'm talking about my older brother or my
> > younger brother, and somewhat that I'm the caboose of the family.
>
> I had to look up what "caboose of the family" means.

You might have guessed from Bob Dylan's 'on the caboose of the train',
from 'Only a Pawn in Their Game'.
It is even used in the USA as "on the caboose of the family-train"

And guess what? It is another word from Middle-Dutch/Middle-German.
To American by way of French. (by way of the navy)

The 'kombuis' 'kabuse' was a small hut built on the main deck
of a sea-going ship where warm food was prepared. (E. the galley)
At other times it also served as shelter for the crew.

From the American Navy it moved to the railroad
as shelter for the train crews at the end of the train.
(needed for shunting operations, and sometimes for braking)

Jan