Surname is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name] [Family name]

i started using X-Face... i wish more people would use it.


Stefan Ram wrote:

> Tak To <takto@alum.mit.eduxx> writes:
>>On 12/16/2021 5:17 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>>>>his last name,
>>>This is a little off the topic of the question now, but I
>>>remember that recently I was trying to figure out what
>>>is more common (in the U.S.): "last name" or "surname".
>>>I don't remember how I did it, but the result was "surname".
>>"Common" as in forms or everyday conversations?
>>"Surname" is tad too formal in the latter.

> I tried to reproduce my previous results and found a
> possible source for errors. My intention in my previous
> research was to search in a set of texts that were written
> mainly by native speakers from the U.S. But now I see that
> while all texts were written in English, the set might have
> contained too many texts written by non-native speakers.
> Perhaps I was also a little too hasty at the time and also
> made an additional mistake in the evaluation.

> Now, I have been doing the research again with a modified
> approach that tries to reduce the number of possible non-
> native speakers. But still it is based on /written/
> language, not on spoken language! And the whole set is
> not from a medium like a chat room where people write
> more like they speak, but from a more formal source indeed.

> Now, I get:

> 17 "surname"
> 121 "last name"

> . I regret to have reported a result in my previous post
> that was misleading!

> I also have a small corpus of /spoken/ English:

> 0 "surname"
> 2 "last name"

> . I thank you that you have made me aware of my mistake by
> your inquiry and I ask you all to forgive the mistake from
> my previous post on this subject!

Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>
> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name]  [Family
> name] [...]

Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were addicted
to deeds poll....

"For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and for
any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes" -
<https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>

And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.

On 2024-03-11 09:14:51 +0000, Hibou said:

> Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>>
>> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name] 
>> [Family name] [...]
>
> Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were addicted
> to deeds poll....
>
> "For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
> names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
> change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and for
> any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes" -
> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>
>
>
> And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.

Hungarians also

--
Athel cb

On 11-Mar-24 9:14, Hibou wrote:
> Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>>
>> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name]
>> [Family name] [...]
>
> Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were addicted
> to deeds poll....
>
> "For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
> names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
> change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and for
> any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes" -
> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>
>
> And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.
>
Is that the correct plural form of Deed Pole?
I'll try to use it whenever the occasion arrises.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 11-Mar-24 9:14, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>>>
>>> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name]
>>> [Family name] [...]
>>
>> Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were addicted
>> to deeds poll....
>>
>> "For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
>> names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
>> change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and for
>> any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes" -
>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>
>>
>> And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.
>>
> Is that the correct plural form of Deed Pole?
> I'll try to use it whenever the occasion arrises.

Why would it? AIUI, there's only one Dead Pool.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-03-11 13:59, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 11-Mar-24 9:14, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>>>
>>> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name]
>>> [Family name] [...]
>>
>> Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were addicted
>> to deeds poll....
>>
>> "For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
>> names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
>> change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and
>> for any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes" -
>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>
>>
>> And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.
>>
> Is that the correct plural form of Deed Pole?
> I'll try to use it whenever the occasion arrises.
>
Rzeczywiście jest

--
I just sold my homing pigeon on eBay for the fifteenth time.

Le 11/03/2024 à 19:59, Sam Plusnet a écrit :
> On 11-Mar-24 9:14, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>>>
>>> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name]
>>> [Family name] [...]
>>
>> Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were addicted
>> to deeds poll....
>>
>> "For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
>> names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
>> change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and
>> for any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes" -
>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>
>>
>> And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.
>
> Is that the correct plural form of Deed Pole?
> I'll try to use it whenever the occasion arrises.

Yes. It's a deed, so 'deed' is a noun, and takes an 's' in the plural.
'Poll' is an adjective, so invariable.

"The word poll (commonly mis-spelt 'pol' or 'pole') is an archaic legal
term that refers to official documents printed or written on paper with
edges cut (or 'polled') straight. / The straight edges distinguished the
document as a deed binding only one person, rather than one that binds
two or more parties called an indenture (so named at a time when to
reduce forgery a copy of the deed would be written out on a separate,
single sheet of paper for each party, then the copies together would be
irregularly torn or cut so that each party had a document with
corresponding tears to prove it was an original copy)" -
<https://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/what-is-deed-poll>

On 2024-03-11 19:59:01 +0000, Sam Plusnet said:

> On 11-Mar-24 9:14, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>>>
>>> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name]
>>> [Family name] [...]
>>
>> Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were addicted
>> to deeds poll....
>>
>> "For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
>> names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
>> change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and for
>> any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes" -
>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>
>>
>>
>> And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.
>>
> Is that the correct plural form of Deed Pole?

Poll.

If I needed a plural I would write Deeds Poll.

> I'll try to use it whenever the occasion arrises.

I acquired my cumbersome surname by Deed Poll (in 1871, so I'm not to
blame). My greatgrandmother thought that her family was more fancy than
her husband's. My greatgrandfather wasn't happy about it, but he
allowed himself to be persuaded, especially as my greatgrandmother's
sister had also married someone called Bowden and had made the change
already.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2024-03-11 19:59:01 +0000, Sam Plusnet said:

>> On 11-Mar-24 9:14, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name]
>>>> [Family name] [...]
>>>
>>> Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were addicted
>>> to deeds poll....
>>>
>>> "For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
>>> names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
>>> change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and for
>>> any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes" -
>>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>
>>>
>>>
>>> And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.
>>>
>> Is that the correct plural form of Deed Pole?

> Poll.

> If I needed a plural I would write Deeds Poll.

>> I'll try to use it whenever the occasion arrises.

> I acquired my cumbersome surname by Deed Poll (in 1871, so I'm not to
> blame). My greatgrandmother thought that her family was more fancy than
> her husband's. My greatgrandfather wasn't happy about it, but he
> allowed himself to be persuaded, especially as my greatgrandmother's
> sister had also married someone called Bowden and had made the change
> already.

Were the two Bowdens related to each other?

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-03-12 12:58:16 +0000, jerryfriedman said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On 2024-03-11 19:59:01 +0000, Sam Plusnet said:
>
>>> On 11-Mar-24 9:14, Hibou wrote:
>>>> Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name]
>>>>> [Family name] [...]
>>>>
>>>> Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were addicted
>>>> to deeds poll....
>>>>
>>>> "For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
>>>> names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
>>>> change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and for
>>>> any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes" -
>>>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.
>>>>
>>> Is that the correct plural form of Deed Pole?
>
>> Poll.
>
>> If I needed a plural I would write Deeds Poll.
>
>>> I'll try to use it whenever the occasion arrises.
>
>> I acquired my cumbersome surname by Deed Poll (in 1871, so I'm not to
>> blame). My greatgrandmother thought that her family was more fancy than
>> her husband's. My greatgrandfather wasn't happy about it, but he
>> allowed himself to be persuaded, especially as my greatgrandmother's
>> sister had also married someone called Bowden and had made the change
>> already.
>
> Were the two Bowdens related to each other?

Yes, but not very closely: second cousins once removed if I remember
rightly, but I can check if necessary. My greatgrandmother insisted on
another change that didn't receive universal approval: she thought the
traditional Devon pronunciation (/'bau̯dən/ "bough-dn") sounded
"common" and changed it to /'bəʊ̯dən/ "beau-dn", thus bringing it
closer to the traditional Greater Manchester pronuncation /bo:dən/, but
she probably didn't know that.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 12-Mar-24 9:59, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-03-11 19:59:01 +0000, Sam Plusnet said:
>
>> On 11-Mar-24 9:14, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 10/03/2024 à 19:05, HenHanna a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Surname  is shorter and seems more precise. -- than [Last name]
>>>> [Family name] [...]
>>>
>>> Hmm. I suppose 'last name' could be ambiguous if someone were
>>> addicted to deeds poll....
>>>
>>> "For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add
>>> names, remove names, and change the spelling of your names. You can
>>> change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and
>>> for any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent
>>> purposes" -
>>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/964986/loc019-adult-eng.pdf>
>>>
>>> And some oriental peoples put their surname first, anyway.
>>>
>> Is that the correct plural form of Deed Pole?
>
> Poll.
>
> If I needed a plural I would write Deeds Poll.
>
>> I'll try to use it whenever the occasion arrises.
>
> I acquired my cumbersome surname by Deed Poll (in 1871, so I'm not to
> blame). My greatgrandmother thought that her family was more fancy than
> her husband's. My greatgrandfather wasn't happy about it, but he allowed
> himself to be persuaded, especially as my greatgrandmother's sister had
> also married someone called Bowden and had made the change already.
>
In my family there was talk of various offspring being named after
uncles, aunts or more distant relatives, in the apparent hope of some
bequest at a later date.
I have no idea if the measure bore fruit, nor quite why anyone would
want to have a child named after them.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Tue, 12 Mar 2024, at 21:36:49, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>
>In my family there was talk of various offspring being named after
>uncles, aunts or more distant relatives, in the apparent hope of some
>bequest at a later date.
>I have no idea if the measure bore fruit, nor quite why anyone would
>want to have a child named after them.
>
It could come in handy when you needed an alibi.
--
Paul W

On 12-Mar-24 23:04, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Mar 2024, at 21:36:49, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>
>> In my family there was talk of various offspring being named after
>> uncles, aunts or more distant relatives, in the apparent hope of some
>> bequest at a later date.
>> I have no idea if the measure bore fruit, nor quite why anyone would
>> want to have a child named after them.
>>
> It could come in handy when you needed an alibi.

"It can't have been me. I was at the christening of my nephew."

--
Sam Plusnet