I hope you will forgive me for asking here because I write English much
better that French.

I am reading th Asterix albums in French, and there's a sentence that I
makes me wonder:

J'avais peur que vous ne preniez ma place, ...

Asterix and Obelix have been involved in a Roman family who keeps
several slaves, and one slave was afraid that Asterix and Obelix would
take his position in the house.

But why "ne"? A translation into English would be:

I was afraid that you wouldn't take my place.

and that makes no sense.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On 12/03/2024 08:38, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> I hope you will forgive me for asking here because I write English much
> better that French.
>
> I am reading th Asterix albums in French, and there's a sentence that I
> makes me wonder:
>
> J'avais peur que vous ne preniez ma place, ...
>
> Asterix and Obelix have been involved in a Roman family who keeps
> several slaves, and one slave was afraid that Asterix and Obelix would
> take his position in the house.
>
> But why "ne"? A translation into English would be:
>
> I was afraid that you wouldn't take my place.
>
> and that makes no sense.
>
The expression "avoir peur que..." in French requires the subjunctive
mood ("preniez") and also the negative form "ne", known in French
grammar as the "pleonastic ne". It translates into English in your
example as "I was afraid that you would take my position".

Search "pleonastic ne" for more information.

John Armstrong wrote:

>> J'avais peur que vous ne preniez ma place, ...
>>
>> Asterix and Obelix have been involved in a Roman family who keeps
>> several slaves, and one slave was afraid that Asterix and Obelix would
>> take his position in the house.
>>
>> But why "ne"? A translation into English would be:
>>
>> I was afraid that you wouldn't take my place.
>>
>> and that makes no sense.
>>
> The expression "avoir peur que..." in French requires the subjunctive
> mood ("preniez") and also the negative form "ne", known in French
> grammar as the "pleonastic ne". It translates into English in your
> example as "I was afraid that you would take my position".
>
> Search "pleonastic ne" for more information.

Thanks. That explains it.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On 2024-03-12 09:07:52 +0000, John Armstrong said:

> On 12/03/2024 08:38, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> I hope you will forgive me for asking here because I write English much
>> better that French.
>>
>> I am reading th Asterix albums in French, and there's a sentence that I
>> makes me wonder:
>>
>> J'avais peur que vous ne preniez ma place, ...
>>
>> Asterix and Obelix have been involved in a Roman family who keeps
>> several slaves, and one slave was afraid that Asterix and Obelix would
>> take his position in the house.
>>
>> But why "ne"? A translation into English would be:
>>
>> I was afraid that you wouldn't take my place.
>>
>> and that makes no sense.
>>
> The expression "avoir peur que..." in French requires the subjunctive
> mood ("preniez") and also the negative form "ne", known in French
> grammar as the "pleonastic ne". It translates into English in your
> example as "I was afraid that you would take my position".
>
> Search "pleonastic ne" for more information.

French likes "ne" in numerous contexts where we wouldn't use "not".

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 12/03/24 20:07, John Armstrong wrote:
> On 12/03/2024 08:38, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

>> I hope you will forgive me for asking here because I write English
>> much better that French.
>>
>> I am reading th Asterix albums in French, and there's a sentence
>> that I makes me wonder:
>>
>> J'avais peur que vous ne preniez ma place, ...
>>
>> Asterix and Obelix have been involved in a Roman family who keeps
>> several slaves, and one slave was afraid that Asterix and Obelix
>> would take his position in the house.
>>
>> But why "ne"? A translation into English would be:
>>
>> I was afraid that you wouldn't take my place.
>>
>> and that makes no sense.
>>
> The expression "avoir peur que..." in French requires the subjunctive
> mood ("preniez") and also the negative form "ne", known in French
> grammar as the "pleonastic ne". It translates into English in your
> example as "I was afraid that you would take my position".
>
> Search "pleonastic ne" for more information.

This is one of those little details that students of French as a second
language possibly know better than half the native speakers.

Before I married my previous (francophone) wife, I said in a
conversation something like "C'est rare, que je sache". She was
impressed that I knew to use a subjunctive in that sentence; so
impressed that she had to point it out to her parents. But in fact it
wasn't all that impressive, because use of the subjunctive was something
that had been drummed into me in French classes. (Along with things like
when to add "ne" to some subjunctive clauses.)

In contrast, native speakers pick up such details in their reading of
respected writers, but they probably don't hear it much in ordinary
conversation. When I tried my example "C'est rare, que je sache" on
Google Translate, GT showed a definite preference for changing it to
"C'est rare, à ma connaisance", which avoids the question of verb mood.

By the way, I noticed in a web search that French sources seem to prefer
"ne explétif" over "ne pléonastique".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan wrote:

> By the way, I noticed in a web search that French sources seem to prefer
> "ne explétif" over "ne pléonastique".

I discovered the same.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Le 12/03/2024 à 10:17, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 12/03/24 20:07, John Armstrong wrote:
>> On 12/03/2024 08:38, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>>
>>> J'avais peur que vous ne preniez ma place, ...
>>>
>>> Asterix and Obelix have been involved in a Roman family who keeps
>>> several slaves, and one slave was afraid that Asterix and Obelix
>>> would take his position in the house.
>>>
>>> But why "ne"? A translation into English would be:
>>>
>>> I was afraid that you wouldn't take my place.
>>>
>>> and that makes no sense.
>>>
>> The expression "avoir peur que..." in French requires the subjunctive
>> mood ("preniez") and also the negative form "ne", known in French
>> grammar as the "pleonastic ne".  It translates into English in your
>> example as "I was afraid that you would take my position".
>>
>> Search "pleonastic ne" for more information. [...]
>
> By the way, I noticed in a web search that French sources seem to prefer
> "ne explétif" over "ne pléonastique".

That seems reasonable, since in the usual French sense it's not
/pléonastique/ (repetitive) :

« Pléonasme [...] Répétition dans un même énoncé de mots ayant le même
sens, soit par maladresse (par exemple descendre en bas), soit dans une
intention stylistique [...] » -
<https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/pl%C3%A9onasme/61617>

On Tue, 12 Mar 2024, at 09:07:52, John Armstrong posted:
>On 12/03/2024 08:38, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> I hope you will forgive me for asking here because I write English much
>> better that French.
>> I am reading th Asterix albums in French, and there's a sentence
>>that I
>> makes me wonder:
>> J'avais peur que vous ne preniez ma place, ...
>>
>> Asterix and Obelix have been involved in a Roman family who keeps
>> several slaves, and one slave was afraid that Asterix and Obelix would
>> take his position in the house.
>> But why "ne"? A translation into English would be:
>> I was afraid that you wouldn't take my place.
>> and that makes no sense.
>>
>The expression "avoir peur que..." in French requires the subjunctive
>mood ("preniez") and also the negative form "ne", known in French
>grammar as the "pleonastic ne". It translates into English in your
>example as "I was afraid that you would take my position".

English has a parallel. There's an element of the negative in the word
'lest', which serves very well in this situation: "I was afraid lest you
should take my position."

My SOED says of lest:

1 A neg. particle of intention or purpose, introducing a subjunct.
clause expr. something to be prevented or guarded against: in order
that…not. Also †lest that. OE.
R. Kipling Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet, Lest we forget,
lest we forget. M. Sinclair She drew in her breath lest he
should hear it now.

2 After verbs of fearing or phrs. indicating apprehension or danger,
introducing a subjunct. clause expr. the event that is feared: that. OE.
F. Clissold I felt a strong inclination to sleep, and feared
lest I should drop down.
>
>Search "pleonastic ne" for more information.

--
Paul W

On Tue, 12 Mar 2024, at 23:11:49, Paul Wolff posted:
>On Tue, 12 Mar 2024, at 09:07:52, John Armstrong posted:
>>On 12/03/2024 08:38, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> I hope you will forgive me for asking here because I write English much
>>> better that French.
>>> I am reading th Asterix albums in French, and there's a sentence
>>>that I
>>> makes me wonder:
>>> J'avais peur que vous ne preniez ma place, ...
>>>
>>> Asterix and Obelix have been involved in a Roman family who keeps
>>> several slaves, and one slave was afraid that Asterix and Obelix would
>>> take his position in the house.
>>> But why "ne"? A translation into English would be:
>>> I was afraid that you wouldn't take my place.
>>> and that makes no sense.
>>>
>>The expression "avoir peur que..." in French requires the subjunctive
>>mood ("preniez") and also the negative form "ne", known in French
>>grammar as the "pleonastic ne". It translates into English in your
>>example as "I was afraid that you would take my position".
>
>English has a parallel. There's an element of the negative in the word
>'lest', which serves very well in this situation: "I was afraid lest you
>should take my position."

And if you want to translate an English sentence that uses 'lest' into
Latin, you render it with the Latin conjunction 'ne' followed by a
subjunctive. Which takes us back to the French version of the Roman
slave's utterance questioned by Bertel. QED, or something like it.
>
>My SOED says of lest:
>
>1 A neg. particle of intention or purpose, introducing a subjunct.
>clause expr. something to be prevented or guarded against: in order
>that…not. Also †lest that. OE.
> R. Kipling Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet, Lest we forget,
> lest we forget. M. Sinclair She drew in her breath lest he
> should hear it now.
>
>2 After verbs of fearing or phrs. indicating apprehension or danger,
>introducing a subjunct. clause expr. the event that is feared: that. OE.
> F. Clissold I felt a strong inclination to sleep, and feared
> lest I should drop down.
>>
>>Search "pleonastic ne" for more information.
>

--
Paul W

Paul Wolff wrote:

> My SOED says of lest:

> 2 After verbs of fearing or phrs. indicating apprehension or danger,
> introducing a subjunct. clause expr. the event that is feared: that. OE.
> F. Clissold I felt a strong inclination to sleep, and feared
> lest I should drop down.

Yes, in the original context, I think:

He feared lest they should take his place.

--
Marius Hancu