Hibou wrote:

> Since I muck about in French, I also routinely type accented characters
> - and they are a pain in the arse. The ê in être takes three keystrokes,
> ALT-GR ^ e, requires a wee dance on the keyboard. With a pen, the accent
> is just a lightning squiggle. Once upon a time, the French spelled the
> word être estre, so it is perfectly possible to do without the accent,
> as it is in fuehrer, and with a keyboard estre would be easier and
> quicker to type.

Maybe you would like to have a Danish keyboars layout? All the English
letters are there, and special letters take fewer key strokes. It takes
some getting used to because technical keys are in a different position
and would have a wrong symbol on the key.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On 04/03/24 05:32, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Hibou wrote:
>
>> Correction: /four/ keystrokes. I must press SHIFT to get to ^.
>
> It takes three keystrokes on my keyboard, Shift+^. ä, ö and ü take
> two. I use them in the German language group, but there are also
> Danish names with them. They are not found in ordinary words.

Of course in Germany you can get a German keyboard, and in France you
can get a French keyboard.

I've just discovered an on-line resource that makes it easy to type in
multiple languages.
<https://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/esperanto.htm>
so I could have used this to type my original Esperanto sentence.

ŝangi, piĉo.

A wikipedia article says "Specifically the characters ĵ, ĝ, ĉ, ĥ, ŭ, ŝ
can be problematic". I can type some but not all of these via the
command "KEYB UX" in OS/2.

The language Esperanto was invented in an era when people still
remembered how to do handwriting.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 04/03/24 03:24, lar3ryca wrote:

> In the Canadian curling championships, the teams are divided into two
> pools; Pool A and Pool B. Would francophones be offended at being
> Pool A?

I was offended when a French colleague kept calling me Péteur. And also
when one of my children referred to me as Großvater.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Le 03/03/2024 à 18:16, Silvano a écrit :
> Hibou hat am 03.03.2024 um 18:17 geschrieben:
>> Le 03/03/2024 à 16:55, Silvano a écrit :
>>> Hibou hat am 03.03.2024 um 11:13 geschrieben:
>>>>
>>>> Accents on characters were fine during the age of the pen, but are not
>>>> suited to keyboards and computers.
>>>
>>> Laughing out very loud. I'll tell you a secret: there are other
>>> languages in the world and 100,000,000s people type every day accents
>>> and other diacritics with their keyboards. I am just one of them.
>>>
>>> Extreme example: Vietnamese. Just a few lines for your education:
>>> Tất cả mọi người sinh ra đều được tự do và bình đẳng về nhân phẩm và
>>> quyền. Mọi con người đều được tạo hoá ban cho lý trí và lương tâm và cần
>>> phải đối xử với nhau trong tình bằng hữu.
>>
>> I'm glad I've amused you - but I didn't quite follow your refutation.
>>
>> Since I muck about in French, I also routinely type accented characters
>> - and they are a pain in the arse. The ê in être takes four keystrokes,
>> ALT-GR SHIFT-^ e, requires a wee dance on the keyboard.
>
> Foreign computer keyboards have existed for decades, foreign typewriters
> for well over 100 years.
> With the German keyboard I'm using to type this posting I need exactly
> one stroke for äöüß, two for ÄÖÜáéíóúê and three (the same plus Shift)
> for àèìòù.
> If what's shown here <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY> is correct,
> you need exactly one stroke for àèéùç and two for ê.

Voilà. C'est CQFD, ce qu'il fallait démontrer (QED). Just as the
(existence of an) exception proves the (existence of the) rule, the fact
that people need workarounds proves there is a problem.

If one is used to QWERTY, the anglophone standard, then AZERTY and the
like are even more trouble than compose sequences - and the reverse will
be true too. Is someone who writes in, say, four languages, meant to
master four different keyboard layouts?

The fact is, "Accents on characters were fine during the age of the pen,
but are not suited to keyboards and computers."

Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 04/03/24 05:32, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Hibou wrote:
>>
>>> Correction: /four/ keystrokes. I must press SHIFT to get to ^.
>>
>> It takes three keystrokes on my keyboard, Shift+^. ä, ö and ü take
>> two. I use them in the German language group, but there are also
>> Danish names with them. They are not found in ordinary words.
>
> Of course in Germany you can get a German keyboard, and in France you
> can get a French keyboard.

I'm so used to using the extra key presses that I don't think about it
anymore. When I used Windows I had to use five key presses to produce ß.
On Linux I can do it with two. Except that I never use ß because I can't
use the relatively simple rule about it. I am not sure if a syllable is
long or short.

On my mobile and tablet I just pull the space bar sideways to change the
keyboard setup to one of the languages that I have installed.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Le 03/03/2024 à 18:54, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> Hibou wrote:
>>
>> Since I muck about in French, I also routinely type accented characters
>> - and they are a pain in the arse. The ê in être takes three keystrokes,
>> ALT-GR ^ e, requires a wee dance on the keyboard. With a pen, the accent
>> is just a lightning squiggle. Once upon a time, the French spelled the
>> word être estre, so it is perfectly possible to do without the accent,
>> as it is in fuehrer, and with a keyboard estre would be easier and
>> quicker to type.
>
> Maybe you would like to have a Danish keyboars layout? All the English
> letters are there, and special letters take fewer key strokes. It takes
> some getting used to because technical keys are in a different position
> and would have a wrong symbol on the key.

The "some getting used to" is key. If languages that use the Latin
alphabet did not employ accents, then writers could type any such
language on the keyboard of their choice - QWERTY, AZERTY, whatever - at
full speed, without any "getting used to", without having to dance the
fingersome reel.

Bertel Lund Hansen hat am 04.03.2024 um 07:43 geschrieben:
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> On 04/03/24 05:32, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> Correction: /four/ keystrokes. I must press SHIFT to get to ^.
>>>
>>> It takes three keystrokes on my keyboard, Shift+^. ä, ö and ü take
>>> two. I use them in the German language group, but there are also
>>> Danish names with them. They are not found in ordinary words.
>>
>> Of course in Germany you can get a German keyboard, and in France you
>> can get a French keyboard.
>
> I'm so used to using the extra key presses that I don't think about it
> anymore. When I used Windows I had to use five key presses to produce ß.
> On Linux I can do it with two. Except that I never use ß because I can't
> use the relatively simple rule about it. I am not sure if a syllable is
> long or short.

Just a word of consolation: even native German speakers can't agree in
some words. That's why we write now Geschoss, but Austrians write
Geschoß. Also, you can pretend you learnt German in Switzerland, where
they dropped the ß about 100 years ago, because they wanted only one
keyboard for German, French and Italian.

> On my mobile and tablet I just pull the space bar sideways to change the
> keyboard setup to one of the languages that I have installed.

On my devices the virtual keyboard has a taste with a globe on it. I tip
it to change between German and Italian, which is important on
smartphones because of their pretty good, but language-based,
suggestions on how to complete a word.

Hibou hat am 04.03.2024 um 07:35 geschrieben:

> Voilà. C'est CQFD, ce qu'il fallait démontrer (QED). Just as the (existence of an) exception proves the
> (existence of the) rule, the fact that people need workarounds proves there is a problem.
....
> The fact is, "Accents on characters were fine during the age of the pen,
> but are not suited to keyboards and computers."

Like it or not, no one will drop accents or other diacritics in their
own language just to please English writers.
And even if you don't like it, foreigners will keep thinking that
workarounds like writing "Fuehrer" in German or "Cxinio" (China) in
Esperanto are, well, workarounds.

Hibou hat am 04.03.2024 um 07:53 geschrieben:
> Le 03/03/2024 à 18:54, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>> Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>> Since I muck about in French, I also routinely type accented characters
>>> - and they are a pain in the arse. The ê in être takes three keystrokes,
>>> ALT-GR ^ e, requires a wee dance on the keyboard. With a pen, the accent
>>> is just a lightning squiggle. Once upon a time, the French spelled the
>>> word être estre, so it is perfectly possible to do without the accent,
>>> as it is in fuehrer, and with a keyboard estre would be easier and
>>> quicker to type.
>>
>> Maybe you would like to have a Danish keyboars layout? All the English
>> letters are there, and special letters take fewer key strokes. It takes
>> some getting used to because technical keys are in a different position
>> and would have a wrong symbol on the key.
>
> The "some getting used to" is key. If languages that use the Latin
> alphabet did not employ accents,

If my grandma had wheels, she'd be a wheelbarrow.

> then writers could type any such
> language on the keyboard of their choice - QWERTY, AZERTY, whatever - at
> full speed, without any "getting used to", without having to dance the
> fingersome reel.

Do you really want to type faster? Get used to ergonomic keyboards like
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_keyboard_layout>.

Obvious problem: you're f* when you're somewhere else and have to use a
standard keyboard.

Le 04/03/2024 à 08:08, Silvano a écrit :
> Hibou hat am 04.03.2024 um 07:35 geschrieben:
>>
>> Voilà. C'est CQFD, ce qu'il fallait démontrer (QED). Just as the (existence of an) exception proves the
>> (existence of the) rule, the fact that people need workarounds proves there is a problem.
> ...
>> The fact is, "Accents on characters were fine during the age of the pen,
>> but are not suited to keyboards and computers."
>
> Like it or not, no one will drop accents or other diacritics in their
> own language just to please English writers.
> And even if you don't like it, foreigners will keep thinking that
> workarounds like writing "Fuehrer" in German or "Cxinio" (China) in
> Esperanto are, well, workarounds.

Well, there you are talking about solutions, so I suppose you
acknowledge there is a problem.

I agree that people will not abandon accents just to please English
writers, but they may do so to please themselves. If you'll forgive me
using French once again as my example: (1) in everyday use, the French
are pretty sloppy themselves about accents; (2) some accents have
already been made officially optional¹; (3) most accents date back only
to the Renaissance - and he who changes once may change again².

¹« ... l'accent circonflexe : il est supprimé sur les lettres 'i' et
'u', sauf dans les terminaisons verbales... » -
'Rectifications orthographiques du français en 1990' -
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifications_orthographiques_du_fran%C3%A7ais_en_1990#Modifications_apport%C3%A9es>

²« L’emploi des accents, apparus à la Renaissance pour pallier les
insuffisances scripturales du latin, a longtemps fait débat dans la
langue française. Aujourd’hui, ce n’est plus leur usage qui soulève les
passions… mais la crainte qu’ils disparaissent » -
'Petite histoire des accents du français' -
<https://www.francealumni.fr/fr/statique/petite-histoire-des-accents-du-francais-11335>

Hibou hat am 04.03.2024 um 09:59 geschrieben:
> Le 04/03/2024 à 08:08, Silvano a écrit :
>> Hibou hat am 04.03.2024 um 07:35 geschrieben:
>>>
>>> Voilà. C'est CQFD, ce qu'il fallait démontrer (QED). Just as the
>>> (existence of an) exception proves the
>>> (existence of the) rule, the fact that people need workarounds proves
>>> there is a problem.
>> ...
>>> The fact is, "Accents on characters were fine during the age of the pen,
>>> but are not suited to keyboards and computers."
>>
>> Like it or not, no one will drop accents or other diacritics in their
>> own language just to please English writers.
>> And even if you don't like it, foreigners will keep thinking that
>> workarounds like writing "Fuehrer" in German or "Cxinio" (China) in
>> Esperanto are, well, workarounds.
>
> Well, there you are talking about solutions, so I suppose you
> acknowledge there is a problem.
>
> I agree that people will not abandon accents just to please English
> writers, but they may do so to please themselves. If you'll forgive me
> using French once again as my example: (1) in everyday use, the French
> are pretty sloppy themselves about accents; (2) some accents have
> already been made officially optional¹; (3) most accents date back only
> to the Renaissance - and he who changes once may change again².
>
> ¹« ... l'accent circonflexe : il est supprimé sur les lettres 'i' et
> 'u', sauf dans les terminaisons verbales... » -
> 'Rectifications orthographiques du français en 1990' -
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifications_orthographiques_du_fran%C3%A7ais_en_1990#Modifications_apport%C3%A9es>
>
>
> ²« L’emploi des accents, apparus à la Renaissance pour pallier les
> insuffisances scripturales du latin, a longtemps fait débat dans la
> langue française. Aujourd’hui, ce n’est plus leur usage qui soulève les
> passions… mais la crainte qu’ils disparaissent » -
> 'Petite histoire des accents du français' -
> <https://www.francealumni.fr/fr/statique/petite-histoire-des-accents-du-francais-11335>

Thanks for the last link. But did _you_ read it? Let me quote, after
some examples where an accent changes the whole meaning:
On le voit : en français, les accents ne sont pas là pour faire joli.
L’exemple précédent illustre la manière dont ils peuvent faire varier la
prononciation d’une voyelle. Mais seul l’accent aigu se cantonne à cette
unique fonction phonétique. Les accents grave et circonflexe ont une
seconde utilité : ils permettent de distinguer à l’écrit des mots qui
sonnent de façon strictement identique, comme « ou » et « où ».

Le 04/03/2024 à 09:51, Silvano a écrit :
> Hibou hat am 04.03.2024 um 09:59 geschrieben:
>>
>> ²« L’emploi des accents, apparus à la Renaissance pour pallier les
>> insuffisances scripturales du latin, a longtemps fait débat dans la
>> langue française. Aujourd’hui, ce n’est plus leur usage qui soulève les
>> passions… mais la crainte qu’ils disparaissent » -
>> 'Petite histoire des accents du français' -
>> <https://www.francealumni.fr/fr/statique/petite-histoire-des-accents-du-francais-11335>
>
> Thanks for the last link. But did _you_ read it? Let me quote, after
> some examples where an accent changes the whole meaning:
> On le voit : en français, les accents ne sont pas là pour faire joli.
> L’exemple précédent illustre la manière dont ils peuvent faire varier la
> prononciation d’une voyelle. Mais seul l’accent aigu se cantonne à cette
> unique fonction phonétique. Les accents grave et circonflexe ont une
> seconde utilité : ils permettent de distinguer à l’écrit des mots qui
> sonnent de façon strictement identique, comme « ou » et « où ».

Yes, I did. I'm not saying it's as simple as just abolishing them;
something will often need to be put in their place - such as a second
letter (estre, fuehrer). To what extent this would be necessary is a
matter for debate - in speech, no-one mixes up du and dû, ou and où¹ -
and the author's example of « voleur vole/volé » is interesting.

¹At least, I don't think they do.

On 04/03/24 19:59, Hibou wrote:
>
> ¹« ... l'accent circonflexe : il est supprimé sur les lettres 'i' et
> 'u', sauf dans les terminaisons verbales... » - 'Rectifications
> orthographiques du français en 1990' -
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifications_orthographiques_du_fran%C3%A7ais_en_1990#Modifications_apport%C3%A9es>
>
I didn't know that. I can't imagine doing without the circumflex on dû.

It's too late at night for me to think of other examples, but I'm sure
there are other words where dropping a circumflex would lead to confusion.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Hibou hat am 04.03.2024 um 11:02 geschrieben:
> Le 04/03/2024 à 09:51, Silvano a écrit :
>> Hibou hat am 04.03.2024 um 09:59 geschrieben:
>>>
>>> ²« L’emploi des accents, apparus à la Renaissance pour pallier les
>>> insuffisances scripturales du latin, a longtemps fait débat dans la
>>> langue française. Aujourd’hui, ce n’est plus leur usage qui soulève les
>>> passions… mais la crainte qu’ils disparaissent » -
>>> 'Petite histoire des accents du français' -
>>> <https://www.francealumni.fr/fr/statique/petite-histoire-des-accents-du-francais-11335>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for the last link. But did _you_ read it? Let me quote, after
>> some examples where an accent changes the whole meaning:
>> On le voit : en français, les accents ne sont pas là pour faire joli.
>> L’exemple précédent illustre la manière dont ils peuvent faire varier la
>> prononciation d’une voyelle. Mais seul l’accent aigu se cantonne à cette
>> unique fonction phonétique. Les accents grave et circonflexe ont une
>> seconde utilité : ils permettent de distinguer à l’écrit des mots qui
>> sonnent de façon strictement identique, comme « ou » et « où ».
>
> Yes, I did. I'm not saying it's as simple as just abolishing them;
> something will often need to be put in their place - such as a second
> letter (estre, fuehrer). To what extent this would be necessary is a
> matter for debate - in speech, no-one mixes up du and dû, ou and où¹ -
> and the author's example of « voleur vole/volé » is interesting.
>
> ¹At least, I don't think they do.

Well, those pronunciations are absolutely identical, so a mix-up is not
possible in _speech_.
For listeners or in writing, I don't know. My French is not good enough
- is Athel willing to comment? Anyway, those written accents are surely
a help to readers.

On 03/03/2024 18:54, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Hibou wrote:
>
>> Since I muck about in French, I also routinely type accented characters
>> - and they are a pain in the arse. The ê in être takes three keystrokes,
>> ALT-GR ^ e, requires a wee dance on the keyboard. With a pen, the accent
>> is just a lightning squiggle. Once upon a time, the French spelled the
>> word être estre, so it is perfectly possible to do without the accent,
>> as it is in fuehrer, and with a keyboard estre would be easier and
>> quicker to type.
>
> Maybe you would like to have a Danish keyboars layout? All the English
> letters are there, and special letters take fewer key strokes. It takes
> some getting used to because technical keys are in a different position
> and would have a wrong symbol on the key.
>

I (once) bought (by mistake) a Canadian Multilingual keyboard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSA_keyboard
Wish I hadn't lost it in a work move. Useful for English/French typing.

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT HIDE THE TEACHER'S PROZAC

On 2024-03-03 18:16:09 +0000, Silvano said:

> Hibou hat am 03.03.2024 um 18:17 geschrieben:
>> Le 03/03/2024 à 16:55, Silvano a écrit :
>>> Hibou hat am 03.03.2024 um 11:13 geschrieben:
>>>>
>>>> Accents on characters were fine during the age of the pen, but are not
>>>> suited to keyboards and computers.
>>>
>>> Laughing out very loud. I'll tell you a secret: there are other
>>> languages in the world and 100,000,000s people type every day accents
>>> and other diacritics with their keyboards. I am just one of them.
>>>
>>> Extreme example: Vietnamese. Just a few lines for your education:
>>> Tất cả mọi người sinh ra đều được tự do và bình đẳng về nhân phẩm và
>>> quyền. Mọi con người đều được tạo hoá ban cho lý trí và lương tâm và cần
>>> phải đối xử với nhau trong tình bằng hữu.
>>
>> I'm glad I've amused you - but I didn't quite follow your refutation.
>>
>> Since I muck about in French, I also routinely type accented characters
>> - and they are a pain in the arse. The ê in être takes three keystrokes,
>> ALT-GR ^ e, requires a wee dance on the keyboard.
>
>
> Foreign computer keyboards have existed for decades, foreign typewriters
> for well over 100 years.
> With the German keyboard I'm using to type this posting I need exactly
> one stroke for äöüß, two for ÄÖÜáéíóúê and three (the same plus Shift)
> for àèìòù.
> If what's shown here <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY> is correct,
> you need exactly one stroke for àèéùç and two for ê.

On my AZERTY keyboard I have separate keys for éèçà and ù. (ê etc. are
a bit more of a pain in the arse, but I can do those with little
difficulty. Likewse ë etc.)As I often need to type Spanish names have
modified my keyboard to be able to painlessly type áéíóúñ¡ and ¿. I use
Ukelele but I expect similar progams are available for Windows boxes.

--
Athel cb

Hibou wrote:

> The fact is, "Accents on characters were fine during the age of the pen,
> but are not suited to keyboards and computers."

We can't do without them. We'd have to invent new characters to cover
their function. Just imagine what a keyboard then would look like.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Chris Elvidge wrote:

> I (once) bought (by mistake) a Canadian Multilingual keyboard
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSA_keyboard
> Wish I hadn't lost it in a work move. Useful for English/French typing.

I find such keyboards confusing. Maybe a decade ago computers came with
a Danish keyboard. Notice the keys with Æ, Ø and Å.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/fd/c5/4cfdc55c7cf4fe31c3ffae551229d6c9.jpg

Nowadays they all come with a Nordic keyboard:

https://taplaptop.com/images/87/image-87f7b7ad5963cc32abfc6629123d5d95.jpg

A couple of months ago I was lucky to find a Danish keyboard in a reuse
shop. Otherwise they are impossible to get.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On 05/03/24 18:53, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Hibou wrote:
>
>> The fact is, "Accents on characters were fine during the age of the
>> pen, but are not suited to keyboards and computers."
>
> We can't do without them. We'd have to invent new characters to
> cover their function. Just imagine what a keyboard then would look
> like.

A few decades ago the Chinese solved this problem by making keyboards
that had thousands of keys. I gather, though, that those have since been
replaced by ways of specifying characters using sequences of inputs on
conventional-sized keyboards.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-03-05 10:29:24 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 05/03/24 18:53, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Hibou wrote:
>>
>>> The fact is, "Accents on characters were fine during the age of the
>>> pen, but are not suited to keyboards and computers."
>>
>> We can't do without them. We'd have to invent new characters to
>> cover their function. Just imagine what a keyboard then would look
>> like.
>
> A few decades ago the Chinese solved this problem by making keyboards
> that had thousands of keys. I gather, though, that those have since been
> replaced by ways of specifying characters using sequences of inputs on
> conventional-sized keyboards.

A few years ago I watched a Chinese student that I knew well typing a
message in Chinese on an iPhone. It was obvious how she did it: she
typed a word in Pinyin and the phone suggested three or four characters
that corresponded and she selected the one she wanted. It may not be
the ideal way of typing, but it worked just fine. This was a little
while after the unlamented PTD had claimed on this news group that
Pinyin wasn't used for anything in practice. I asked if he had never
seen the many street signs in Pekin that show the street names in
Pinyin (they're all over the place). He said that hadn't been wealthy
enough to go to China, ever. So his "knowledge" of the use of Pinyin in
China wasn't based on any actual knowledge of China; probably it
derived from some book in English that he had read written by someone
who knew as little about China as he did.

After the episode with the iPhone I asked the student if everyone used
Pinyin in the way she had done. She said yes, there was no other
practical way to do it.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

jerryfriedman wrote:

> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

>> navi wrote:

>>> 1) For all the gaps and years between their individual heydays on the
>>> program, it may be said (with few, and no really important,
>>> reservations) that all seven of the children had managed to answer
>>> over the air a prodigious number of alternately deadly-bookish and
>>> deadly-cute questions with a freshness, an aplomb, that was
>>> considered unique in commercial radio.

>>> My problem, which is not a major one, is with the last phrase:
>>> "with a freshness, an aplomb, that was considered unique in commercial radio."
>>>
>>> It seems to ma that 'an aplomb' is in apposition to 'a freshness'.

>> No. Oxford Learner's Dictionaries writes:

>> aplomb
>> if somebody does something with aplomb, they do it in a confident
>> and successful way, often in a difficult situation

>> "Freshness" about a person means they are easy, unproblematic,
>> unconcerned.

> I disagree. The freshness of their answers is originality, lack of
> triteness.

>>> So, basically the freshness is the aplomb

>> Yes.

> I'd say no. Though it looks like an apposition, t's a concise,
> belle-lettristic way of saying "the freshness and the aplomb".

I would go with Jerry here, but I've just found:

MWU
~~~
fresh

US slang : fashionable, cool <The Colonel's neither fresh nor phat, he's just a big white dork. — A. J. Jacobs, Entertainment Weekly, 16 Apr. 1999>
~~~

even though I have no date for it.

Best.
--
Marius Hancu

Marius_Hancu wrote:

> jerryfriedman wrote:

>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

>>> navi wrote:

>>>> 1) For all the gaps and years between their individual heydays on the
>>>> program, it may be said (with few, and no really important,
>>>> reservations) that all seven of the children had managed to answer
>>>> over the air a prodigious number of alternately deadly-bookish and
>>>> deadly-cute questions with a freshness, an aplomb, that was
>>>> considered unique in commercial radio.

>>>> My problem, which is not a major one, is with the last phrase:
>>>> "with a freshness, an aplomb, that was considered unique in commercial radio."
>>>>
>>>> It seems to ma that 'an aplomb' is in apposition to 'a freshness'.

>>> No. Oxford Learner's Dictionaries writes:

>>> aplomb
>>> if somebody does something with aplomb, they do it in a confident
>>> and successful way, often in a difficult situation

>>> "Freshness" about a person means they are easy, unproblematic,
>>> unconcerned.

>> I disagree. The freshness of their answers is originality, lack of
>> triteness.

>>>> So, basically the freshness is the aplomb

>>> Yes.

>> I'd say no. Though it looks like an apposition, t's a concise,
>> belle-lettristic way of saying "the freshness and the aplomb".

> I would go with Jerry here, but I've just found:

> MWU
> ~~~
> fresh

> US slang : fashionable, cool <The Colonel's neither fresh nor phat, he's just a big white dork. — A. J. Jacobs, Entertainment Weekly, 16 Apr. 1999>
> ~~~

> even though I have no date for it.

1981, according to

https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/23sfpva

(a good place for such things), which calls it "US black/campus".

--
Jerry Friedman

jerryfriedman wrote:

> https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/23sfpva

> (a good place for such things), which calls it "US black/campus".

Well, you've just made my day, as I wasn't aware Jonathon Green has brought his amazing slang dictionary on line.

Thank you very much in spades:-]
--
Marius Hancu