(i'm hoping PTD won't see this)

cenematics, cenetics (n.) -- see ceneme (1)

ceneme (n.)

(1) A term used in glossematics to refer to the .........

(2) In the study of writing systems, a sign which denotes only
linguistic form;
opposed to plereme, where meaning is also involved. There are two main
types: syllabaries (e.g. Japanese kana) and alphabets.

Systems of cenemic signs are more economical in their use of elementary
units, and are often thought to represent a more advanced state of writing.

___________________________

plereme (n.) .......
(2) In the study of writing systems, a plereme is a sign which denotes
both meaning and form; opposed to ceneme. Examples of pleremic symbols
are Egyptian hieroglyphs and Chinese characters.

---------- i thought most the Egyptian hieroglyphs represented
only sounds.

On 3/19/2024 11:42 PM, HenHanna wrote:
>                          (i'm hoping PTD won't see this)
>
>
> cenematics, cenetics (n.)  --  see ceneme (1)
>
>
> ceneme (n.)
>
> (1) A term used in glossematics to refer to the .........
>
>
> (2) In the study of writing systems, a sign which denotes only
>       linguistic form;
> opposed to plereme, where meaning is also involved. There are two main
> types:  syllabaries (e.g. Japanese kana) and alphabets.
>
> Systems of cenemic signs are more economical in their use of elementary
> units, and are often thought to represent a more advanced state of writing.
>
> ___________________________
>
>
> plereme (n.)   .......
> (2) In the study of writing systems, a plereme is a sign which denotes
> both meaning and form; opposed to ceneme. Examples of pleremic symbols
> are Egyptian hieroglyphs and Chinese characters.
>
>
> ---------- i thought most the Egyptian hieroglyphs represented
>                 only sounds.
>

No, most Egyptian hieroglyphs did not represent only sounds.

In fact, the majority functioned in other ways. Here's a breakdown:

-- Phonograms: These were a minority, likely representing only
around 20% of the hieroglyphs. They did function similarly to letters in
an alphabet, representing sounds.

-- Ideograms: These were the most common type, making up the bulk
of hieroglyphs. They represented entire words or concepts, like a
drawing of a sun also meaning "day."

-- Determinatives: These further clarified the meaning of other
hieroglyphs, not representing sounds themselves.

Pig Latin and Dog Latin are both ways of altering English to create a seemingly secret language, but they function in very different ways:

__________Pig Latin:

Simple rule: Moves the first consonant or consonant cluster (like "str" in "string") to the end of the word and adds "ay."

Examples: "hello" becomes "ellohay," "computer" becomes "omputercay."

Not a real code: Easy to decipher once you know the rule.

Function: Mostly for amusement or childhood games.



__________Dog Latin:

More complex:

-- Sometimes adds Latin endings like "-um" or "-us" to nouns.

-- May mimic Latin verb conjugations or noun declensions.

-- Can involve replacing words with Latin-sounding substitutes.

Examples: "bookum" for "book," "canis sandwichus" for "dog sandwich" (literally "dog sandwich" in Latin).

Not a true language: Doesn't follow any consistent grammatical rules of Latin.

Function: Can be used for humor or to create a feeling of scholarly mystery, but not for actual communication.



_________________________ Historical Note:

Interestingly, the term "Pig Latin" used to refer to what we now call "Dog Latin."

Over time, the simpler consonant-move-and-add-"ay" method became more common and took over the name "Pig Latin."

really interesting what Stefan Ram said recently about [Poster Child]

Here are some examples of Yiddish calques in English:

Enough already: This calque translates the Yiddish phrase "genug shoyn."

Second thoughts: This translates the Yiddish "andere meylung."

Full of holes: This translates the Yiddish "fol mit loch."

What's up?: This is a calque of the Yiddish "vos hert zich?" (literally "what hears itself?")

My friend is a real pain in the neck. (Yiddish: "a shmerts in nacken")

I don't have a green light for this project yet. (Yiddish: "kenen grين licht")

We need to put our heads together and come up with a plan. (Yiddish: "zusammenlegen di kep")

--------- Beyond English:

It's important to note that Yiddish calques have also influenced other languages, particularly Hebrew.

For example, the modern Hebrew term for "football" (kaduregel) is a calque of the Yiddish "kugel rund" (literally "round ball").

On 24/03/2024 9:41 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
> really interesting what Stefan Ram said recently about [Poster Child]
>
>
> Here are some examples of Yiddish calques in English:

Why do you think these are Yiddish calques in English, rather than
English calques in Yiddish, or common calques from some third language?

> Enough already: This calque translates the Yiddish phrase "genug shoyn."
>
> Second thoughts: This translates the Yiddish "andere meylung."
>
> Full of holes: This translates the Yiddish "fol mit loch."
>
> What's up?: This is a calque of the Yiddish "vos hert zich?" (literally
> "what hears itself?")
>
This isn't even a calque, just a translation.
>
> My friend is a real pain in the neck.          (Yiddish: "a shmerts in
> nacken")
>
> I don't have a green light for this project yet.       (Yiddish: "kenen
> grين licht")
>
> We need to put our heads together and come up with a plan.
> (Yiddish: "zusammenlegen di kep")
>
>
>
> --------- Beyond English:
>
> It's important to note that Yiddish calques have also influenced other
> languages, particularly Hebrew.
>
>  For example, the modern Hebrew term for "football" (kaduregel) is a
> calque of the Yiddish "kugel rund" (literally "round ball").

Ar an tríú lá is fiche de mí Márta, scríobh HenHanna:

> really interesting what Stefan Ram said recently about [Poster Child]
>
> Here are some examples of Yiddish calques in English:
>
> Enough already: This calque translates the Yiddish phrase "genug shoyn."

Plausible to me, as an Irishman I would place this as a late-20th-century
Americanism in English, and we have very few Jews here (in Ireland), no
opportunity to differentiate what is a gentile innovation versus Jewish of any
descent.

> Second thoughts: This translates the Yiddish "andere meylung."

„Andere Meinung“ in German would not calque to “second thoughts” in English,
I’d be very very surprised if your listed Yiddish did.

> Full of holes: This translates the Yiddish "fol mit loch."
>
> What's up?: This is a calque of the Yiddish "vos hert zich?" (literally "what hears itself?")

That’s not a calque at all?!

> My friend is a real pain in the neck. (Yiddish: "a shmerts in nacken")
>
> I don't have a green light for this project yet. (Yiddish: "kenen grين licht")
>
> We need to put our heads together and come up with a plan. (Yiddish: "zusammenlegen di kep")

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

> really interesting what Stefan Ram said recently about [Poster Child]

--------------- as in Shield-frog

> Here are some examples of Yiddish calques in English:

> Enough already: This calque translates the Yiddish phrase "genug shoyn."

> Second thoughts: This translates the Yiddish "andere meylung."

> Full of holes: This translates the Yiddish "fol mit loch."

> What's up?: This is a calque of the Yiddish "vos hert zich?" (literally "what hears itself?")

> My friend is a real pain in the neck. (Yiddish: "a shmerts in nacken")

> I don't have a green light for this project yet. (Yiddish: "kenen grين licht")

> We need to put our heads together and come up with a plan. (Yiddish: "zusammenlegen di kep")

> --------- Beyond English:

> It's important to note that Yiddish calques have also influenced other languages, particularly Hebrew.

> For example, the modern Hebrew term for "football" (kaduregel) is a calque of the Yiddish "kugel rund" (literally "round ball").

Why do you think these are Yiddish calques in English, rather than
English calques in Yiddish, or common calques from some third language?

For example... The New Joys of Yiddish: Completely Updated, 2010 (Leo Rosten; Lawrence Bush)

says:

Yiddish phrasing and overtones are found in, say, the way an Irish whiskey advertises itself:
Scotch is a fine beverage and deserves its popularity.
But enough is enough already.

________________________________

Who has not heard or used phrases such as the following, which, whatever
their origin, probably owe their presence in English to Jewish influence?

Get lost.
How come only five?
You should live so long.
Do him something.
My son, the physicist.
This I need yet?
I need it like a hole in the head.
A person could bust.
Who needs it?
He’s a regular genius.
So why do you?
Go hit your head against the wall.
All right already.
You want it should sing, too?
It shouldn’t happen to a dog.
Plain talk: He’s crazy.
Okay by me.
Excuse the expression.
He knows from nothing.
With sense, he’s loaded.
From that he makes a living?
Go fight City Hall.
I should have such luck.
On him it looks good.
It’s a nothing of a dress.
It’s time, it’s time.
You should live to be a hundred and
twenty.
Wear it in good health. Listen, bubele .......... …

On 25/03/24 07:47, Aidan Kehoe wrote:

> Ar an tríú lá is fiche de mí Márta, scríobh HenHanna:

As a raw beginner in the Irish language, I have to ask: is there an
historical (or other) reason why "agus" sometimes becomes "is"?

>> really interesting what Stefan Ram said recently about [Poster
>> Child]
>>
>> Here are some examples of Yiddish calques in English:
>>
>> Enough already: This calque translates the Yiddish phrase "genug
>> shoyn."
>
> Plausible to me, as an Irishman I would place this as a
> late-20th-century Americanism in English, and we have very few Jews
> here (in Ireland), no opportunity to differentiate what is a gentile
> innovation versus Jewish of any descent.

We Australians are in a similar situation. Jews only form 0.4% of the
population, so are not highly visible. (That's possibly because of a
20th-century political decision to keep Jews out, but that's another
story.) As a result, the few Yiddishisms that reach us arrive as
Americanisms.

Likewise, imports from Hebrew often reached us via other sources, e.g.
we got "nimrod" from Bugs Bunny. Words from the Bible? Nah. We, like the
Irish, believe that all versions of the Bible are translations from the
original Latin.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Peter Moylan wrote:

> We, like the Irish, believe that all versions of the Bible are
> translations from the original Latin.

But in fact, they are translations from the real original:
the King James Bible.

--
Helmut Richter

Ar an ceathrú lá is fiche de mí Márta, scríobh HenHanna:

> [...] Who has not heard or used phrases such as the following, which,
> whatever their origin, probably owe their presence in English to Jewish
> influence?
>
>
> Get lost.
> How come only five?
> You should live so long.

I’ve never heard or used this.

> Do him something.

I’ve never heard or used this.

> My son, the physicist.
> This I need yet?

I’ve never heard or used this.

> I need it like a hole in the head.
> A person could bust.

I’ve never heard or used this.

> Who needs it?
> He’s a regular genius.
> So why do you?
> Go hit your head against the wall.

I’ve never heard or used this.

> All right already.
> You want it should sing, too?

I’ve never heard or used this.

> It shouldn’t happen to a dog.

I’ve never heard or used this.

> Plain talk: He’s crazy.
> Okay by me.
> Excuse the expression.
> He knows from nothing.

I heard that in a Tom Lehrer recording. I’ve never used it. I know it from
German.

> With sense, he’s loaded.
> From that he makes a living?
> Go fight City Hall.

I’ve never heard or used this.

> I should have such luck.

I’ve never heard or used this.

> On him it looks good.
> It’s a nothing of a dress.

I’ve never heard or used this.

> It’s time, it’s time.
> You should live to be a hundred and
> twenty.

I’ve never heard or used this.

> Wear it in good health. Listen, bubele .......... …

I’ve never heard or used this.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

In article <3ad58cce-6e8-c4fa-5992-4ffa94f3ca78@email.de>,
hr.usenet@email.de says...
>
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> > We, like the Irish, believe that all versions of the Bible are
> > translations from the original Latin.
>
> But in fact, they are translations from the real original:
> the King James Bible.

There was me thinking the bible was written down long
before King James could hold a pen.

Janet.

On 2024-03-25 11:17:09 +0000, Janet said:

> In article <3ad58cce-6e8-c4fa-5992-4ffa94f3ca78@email.de>,
> hr.usenet@email.de says...
>>
>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>> We, like the Irish, believe that all versions of the Bible are
>>> translations from the original Latin.
>>
>> But in fact, they are translations from the real original:
>> the King James Bible.
>
> There was me thinking the bible was written down long
> before King James could hold a pen.

I guess you're not an American fundie. But I thought I knew that.

Now that you live in Scotland you need to call him King James VI.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Ross Clark wrote:

> On 24/03/2024 9:41 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
>> really interesting what Stefan Ram said recently about [Poster Child]
>>
>>
>> Here are some examples of Yiddish calques in English:

> Why do you think these are Yiddish calques in English, rather than
> English calques in Yiddish, or common calques from some third language?

>> Enough already: This calque translates the Yiddish phrase "genug shoyn."
>>
>> Second thoughts: This translates the Yiddish "andere meylung."
>>
>> Full of holes: This translates the Yiddish "fol mit loch."
>>
>> What's up?: This is a calque of the Yiddish "vos hert zich?" (literally
>> "what hears itself?")
>>
> This isn't even a calque, just a translation.
>>
...

>> It's important to note that Yiddish calques have also influenced other
>> languages, particularly Hebrew.
>>
>>  For example, the modern Hebrew term for "football" (kaduregel) is a
>> calque of the Yiddish "kugel rund" (literally "round ball").

I'll add that Hebrew "kaduregel" (soccer) is short for "kadur regel",
where "kadur" means "ball (of)" and "regel" means "foot, leg". So it's a
calque from English "football" or from languages that calqued it from
English.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/כדורגל

--
Jerry Friedman

On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Janet wrote:

> In article <3ad58cce-6e8-c4fa-5992-4ffa94f3ca78@email.de>,
> hr.usenet@email.de says...
> >
> > On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >
> > > We, like the Irish, believe that all versions of the Bible are
> > > translations from the original Latin.
> >
> > But in fact, they are translations from the real original:
> > the King James Bible.
>
> There was me thinking the bible was written down long
> before King James could hold a pen.

Certainly so.

Did you reckon with the possibility that my contribution was meant as a
sneer at the KJV-only movement? Nota bene, not directed against the KJV
translators who did an excellent job and who were absolutely unboastful
regarding their work, as their preface to the reader shows.

--
Helmut Richter

On 27 Mar 2024, Helmut Richter wrote

> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Janet wrote:
>
>> In article <3ad58cce-6e8-c4fa-5992-4ffa94f3ca78@email.de>,
>> hr.usenet@email.de says...
>>>
>>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>>> We, like the Irish, believe that all versions of the Bible are
>>>> translations from the original Latin.
>>>
>>> But in fact, they are translations from the real original:
>>> the King James Bible.
>>
>> There was me thinking the bible was written down long
>> before King James could hold a pen.
>
> Certainly so.
>
> Did you reckon with the possibility that my contribution was meant
> as a sneer at the KJV-only movement?

I assumed that, but your post was sufficiently straight-faced that I
wondered for a minute if you were actually one of the KJV wing-
nuts....

--
Cheers, Harvey

On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Janet wrote:

> There was me thinking the bible was written down long
> before King James could hold a pen.

Am I right to take "There was me thinking ..." as an idiomatic mocking way
of saying "I am sure that ..., so you must be wrong." If so, I'll try to
remember it. As a non-native speaker, I am always looking for such phrases
to remember.

{If someone is interested: In German you would say
"Und ich dachte immer ..." (lit.: "And I always thought ...")
in such a situation. The "und" marks a contrast, perhaps in English better
rendered as "but" or "well,".}

--
Helmut Richter

Helmut Richter wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Janet wrote:

>> There was me thinking the bible was written down long
>> before King James could hold a pen.

> Am I right to take "There was me thinking ..." as an idiomatic mocking way
> of saying "I am sure that ..., so you must be wrong." If so, I'll try to
> remember it. As a non-native speaker, I am always looking for such phrases
> to remember.

Yes. It sounds British to me. I might say, or more likely write, "Here I thought"
or "Here I was thinking".

> {If someone is interested: In German you would say
> "Und ich dachte immer ..." (lit.: "And I always thought ...")
> in such a situation. The "und" marks a contrast, perhaps in English better
> rendered as "but" or "well,".}

"I always thought" is another possibility, at least in American English. I'd hear
it as less mocking.

All of those can start with "And".

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-03-27 16:23:40 +0000, jerryfriedman said:

> Helmut Richter wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Janet wrote:
>
>>> There was me thinking the bible was written down long before King James
>>> could hold a pen.
>
>> Am I right to take "There was me thinking ..." as an idiomatic mocking
>> way of saying "I am sure that ..., so you must be wrong." If so, I'll
>> try to remember it. As a non-native speaker, I am always looking for
>> such phrases to remember.
>
> Yes. It sounds British to me. I might say, or more likely write,
> "Here I thought"
> or "Here I was thinking".

Probably it is British, as you say, as Janet's version is very normal,
whereas your alternatives sound clunky.
>
>> {If someone is interested: In German you would say
>> "Und ich dachte immer ..." (lit.: "And I always thought ...")
>> in such a situation. The "und" marks a contrast, perhaps in English
>> better rendered as "but" or "well,".}
>
> "I always thought" is another possibility, at least in American
> English. I'd hear
> it as less mocking.
>
> All of those can start with "And".

--
athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots

On 28/03/24 00:48, HVS wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2024, Helmut Richter wrote
>
>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Janet wrote:
>>
>>> In article <3ad58cce-6e8-c4fa-5992-4ffa94f3ca78@email.de>,
>>> hr.usenet@email.de says...
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We, like the Irish, believe that all versions of the Bible
>>>>> are translations from the original Latin.
>>>>
>>>> But in fact, they are translations from the real original: the
>>>> King James Bible.
>>>
>>> There was me thinking the bible was written down long before King
>>> James could hold a pen.
>>
>> Certainly so.
>>
>> Did you reckon with the possibility that my contribution was meant
>> as a sneer at the KJV-only movement?
>
> I assumed that, but your post was sufficiently straight-faced that I
> wondered for a minute if you were actually one of the KJV wing-
> nuts....

In my opinion, straight-faced humour is one of the best forms of humour.

There's one catch: when I come across nutcase writing it can take me a
while to realise that they're not joking. I offended some people that
way back when I still used Facebook.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW