When did this practice (custom) begin? Or become so common?

is this mentioned in the French version of Wikipedia?

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-French-people-write-their-surnames-in-capital-letters

>>> The practice of putting given names in upper- and lowercase and
surnames in all uppercase is not limited to the French. It is quite
prevalent in Europe and other parts of the world.

--------------- is it common in Germany, Austria ???

Uncommon for (the) [Francoise SAGAN] because
this method of capitalization is WHOLLY-practical.

So it's even less common for older authors, etc.:
Goethe, Wagner, Shakespeare, Doyle, Poe, ...

i suppose... using it for older authors is like "Göthe" for Goethe

On 2024-03-29, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb> wrote:

> https://www.quora.com/Why-do-French-people-write-their-surnames-in-capital-letters
>
> >>> The practice of putting given names in upper- and lowercase and
> surnames in all uppercase is not limited to the French. It is quite
> prevalent in Europe and other parts of the world.
>
> --------------- is it common in Germany, Austria ???

No.

The underlying issue is that in parts of Europe, the order
last name/first name can be found to varying degrees. For French
names, the names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names
or last names, and with both orderings possible, capitalization is
used to disambiguate.

In Germany, where last name/first name order survives in bureaucratic
contexts and dialectal use, capitalization is not used. Ambiguity
does not appear to be a problem in practice.

In Hungarian, last name/first name is the standard order, e.g.
"Orbán Viktor":
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orb%C3%A1n_Viktor

Sometimes East Asians capitalize their family name in Western
contexts, since there is permanent confusion about their native vs.
Western name order.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Christian Weisgerber hat am 30.03.2024 um 21:22 geschrieben:
>
> The underlying issue is that in parts of Europe, the order
> last name/first name can be found to varying degrees. For French
> names, the names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names
> or last names, and with both orderings possible, capitalization is
> used to disambiguate.
>
> In Germany, where last name/first name order survives in bureaucratic
> contexts and dialectal use, capitalization is not used. Ambiguity
> does not appear to be a problem in practice.

It isn't, with _German_ names. As a translator, I often have to write
Italian names in German translations of Italian documents and I always
capitalize the surnames.

1) You wrote correctly that the order last name/first name can be found
to varying degrees, especially in official documents.
2) You also wrote correctly that "for French (and Italian) names, the
names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names or last names".
3) Finally, German readers do not always know which is an Italian first
name and which is a surname. Actually, in some cases even a native
Italian like me has to ask that person. If I ever have to do with
Alessandro Marcello (both are common first names), which is the surname?
Alessandro as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Alessandro or
Marcello as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Marcello?

P.S. I read regularly (when I have access to a desktop) only AUE. Please
answer there and tell me, if this discussion is diverted to AEU or
sci.lang only.

Silvano wrote:

> Christian Weisgerber hat am 30.03.2024 um 21:22 geschrieben:
>>
>> The underlying issue is that in parts of Europe, the order
>> last name/first name can be found to varying degrees. For French
>> names, the names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names
>> or last names, and with both orderings possible, capitalization is
>> used to disambiguate.
>>
>> In Germany, where last name/first name order survives in bureaucratic
>> contexts and dialectal use, capitalization is not used. Ambiguity
>> does not appear to be a problem in practice.

> It isn't, with _German_ names. As a translator, I often have to write
> Italian names in German translations of Italian documents and I always
> capitalize the surnames.

> 1) You wrote correctly that the order last name/first name can be found
> to varying degrees, especially in official documents.
> 2) You also wrote correctly that "for French (and Italian) names, the
> names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names or last names".
> 3) Finally, German readers do not always know which is an Italian first
> name and which is a surname. Actually, in some cases even a native
> Italian like me has to ask that person. If I ever have to do with
> Alessandro Marcello (both are common first names), which is the surname?
> Alessandro as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Alessandro or
> Marcello as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Marcello?

> P.S. I read regularly (when I have access to a desktop) only AUE. Please
> answer there and tell me, if this discussion is diverted to AEU or
> sci.lang only.

A funny thing about this is that, I'll bet, ambiguity between given names
and surnames is much more common with English names than with French,
Italian, or German, but we don't feel any need to capitalize surnames.
When a surname is given first, it's almost always followed by a comma.

--
Jerry Friedman

jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
> Silvano wrote:
>
>> Christian Weisgerber hat am 30.03.2024 um 21:22 geschrieben:
>>>
>>> The underlying issue is that in parts of Europe, the order
>>> last name/first name can be found to varying degrees. For French
>>> names, the names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names
>>> or last names, and with both orderings possible, capitalization is
>>> used to disambiguate.
>>>
>>> In Germany, where last name/first name order survives in bureaucratic
>>> contexts and dialectal use, capitalization is not used. Ambiguity
>>> does not appear to be a problem in practice.
>
>
>> It isn't, with _German_ names. As a translator, I often have to write
>> Italian names in German translations of Italian documents and I always
>> capitalize the surnames.
>
>> 1) You wrote correctly that the order last name/first name can be found
>> to varying degrees, especially in official documents.
>> 2) You also wrote correctly that "for French (and Italian) names, the
>> names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names or last names".
>> 3) Finally, German readers do not always know which is an Italian first
>> name and which is a surname. Actually, in some cases even a native
>> Italian like me has to ask that person. If I ever have to do with
>> Alessandro Marcello (both are common first names), which is the surname?
>> Alessandro as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Alessandro or
>> Marcello as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Marcello?
>
>> P.S. I read regularly (when I have access to a desktop) only AUE. Please
>> answer there and tell me, if this discussion is diverted to AEU or
>> sci.lang only.
>
> A funny thing about this is that, I'll bet, ambiguity between given names
> and surnames is much more common with English names than with French,
> Italian, or German, but we don't feel any need to capitalize surnames.
> When a surname is given first, it's almost always followed by a comma.

Aiui italians don't do that at all.

On a note of indeterminate relatedness, italians only capitalise the first
letter of acronyms.

On 04.04.2024 07:15, Antonio Marques wrote:

>jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

>>A funny thing about this is that, I'll bet, ambiguity between given names
>>and surnames is much more common with English names than with French,
>>Italian, or German, but we don't feel any need to capitalize surnames.
>>When a surname is given first, it's almost always followed by a comma.

In Germany, both in use - either comma or capitalization.

>Aiui italians don't do that at all.
>
>On a note of indeterminate relatedness, italians only capitalise the first
>letter of acronyms.

In Germany too, yet not as often as in Italy. E.g. Nato (in many texts
though NATO).

Tim

(f'up to sci.lang)

On 2024-04-04 05:15:07 +0000, Antonio Marques said:

> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Silvano wrote:
>>
>>> Christian Weisgerber hat am 30.03.2024 um 21:22 geschrieben:
>>>>
>>>> The underlying issue is that in parts of Europe, the order
>>>> last name/first name can be found to varying degrees. For French
>>>> names, the names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names
>>>> or last names, and with both orderings possible, capitalization is
>>>> used to disambiguate.
>>>>
>>>> In Germany, where last name/first name order survives in bureaucratic
>>>> contexts and dialectal use, capitalization is not used. Ambiguity
>>>> does not appear to be a problem in practice.
>>
>>
>>> It isn't, with _German_ names. As a translator, I often have to write
>>> Italian names in German translations of Italian documents and I always
>>> capitalize the surnames.
>>
>>> 1) You wrote correctly that the order last name/first name can be found
>>> to varying degrees, especially in official documents.
>>> 2) You also wrote correctly that "for French (and Italian) names, the
>>> names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names or last names".
>>> 3) Finally, German readers do not always know which is an Italian first
>>> name and which is a surname. Actually, in some cases even a native
>>> Italian like me has to ask that person. If I ever have to do with
>>> Alessandro Marcello (both are common first names), which is the surname?
>>> Alessandro as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Alessandro or
>>> Marcello as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Marcello?
>>
>>> P.S. I read regularly (when I have access to a desktop) only AUE. Please
>>> answer there and tell me, if this discussion is diverted to AEU or
>>> sci.lang only.
>>
>> A funny thing about this is that, I'll bet, ambiguity between given names
>> and surnames is much more common with English names than with French,
>> Italian, or German, but we don't feel any need to capitalize surnames.
>> When a surname is given first, it's almost always followed by a comma.

OK, but what about the two or more surnames that Portuguese people
have? In Spanish it's easy: paternal first, maternal second. However, I
have the impression that Portuguese sometimes follows the Spanish order
and sometimes inverts it. How do you know which is which?

Another thing is that Spanish* stops at one generation back, but as far
I can tell Portuguese doesn't always. In 1999 and again in 2003 I was
on an international panel to assess the quality of chemistry research
centres in Portugal. We received CVs for the scientists concerned and
in some cases there were so many names it was impossible to disentangle
them without studying the list of publications. One person had about
ten names, about half first names and half surnames, one after another
with no commas, or capitals after the initial letter.

*Spanish as in Spanish-speaking, not necessarily from Spain. Chile
follows the system of Spain pretty much exactly: paternal first,
maternal second; women don't change their names on marriage, though if
they want to they can put the husband's name at the end, preceded by
"de". I imagine most countries in Latin America do likewise, but
Argentina (and I expect Uruguay) is less consistent, and more
contaminated by anglophone practices.
>
> Aiui italians don't do that at all.
>
> On a note of indeterminate relatedness, italians only capitalise the first
> letter of acronyms.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 04/04/24 19:20, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> *Spanish as in Spanish-speaking, not necessarily from Spain. Chile
> follows the system of Spain pretty much exactly: paternal first,
> maternal second; women don't change their names on marriage, though
> if they want to they can put the husband's name at the end, preceded
> by "de". I imagine most countries in Latin America do likewise, but
> Argentina (and I expect Uruguay) is less consistent, and more
> contaminated by anglophone practices.

I picked this paragraph as an illustration that naming practices vary a
lot between countries. In particular, some women change their name on
marriage, and some don't. In Australia, as in other English-speaking
countries, we have a mixed system, where a married woman is allowed but
not compelled to keep her original name.

When my Belgian ex-wife came to Australia she initially had only a
temporary residence visa. That meant that she had to get a re-entry
permit each time we left the country. Each such time I went to the
relevant government office, and they couldn't find her file. Each time I
said "The last time I was here she was misfiled under my name. Could you
check there?" And there it was, not having been fixed the last time.

Long afterwards I realised what the problem was. When we married the
Belgian authorities added "épouse Moylan" to the name in her passport.
Probably the Australian office decided that this meant that "épouse" was
one of her middle names, making Moylan her surname. Hence the filing error.

(In Belgian practice, as in several other European countries, a woman
always keeps her original name officially. Custom allows the use of the
husband's name for social reasons, but that is an informal matter
outside the law.)

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-04-04 10:05:37 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 04/04/24 19:20, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> *Spanish as in Spanish-speaking, not necessarily from Spain. Chile
>> follows the system of Spain pretty much exactly: paternal first,
>> maternal second; women don't change their names on marriage, though
>> if they want to they can put the husband's name at the end, preceded
>> by "de". I imagine most countries in Latin America do likewise, but
>> Argentina (and I expect Uruguay) is less consistent, and more
>> contaminated by anglophone practices.
>
> I picked this paragraph as an illustration that naming practices vary a
> lot between countries. In particular, some women change their name on
> marriage, and some don't. In Australia, as in other English-speaking
> countries, we have a mixed system, where a married woman is allowed but
> not compelled to keep her original name.

When I were a lad it was all but universal for women in England to
change their names on marriage. Nowadays it's as you say. Of my three
daughters two (the oldest,in the USA, and the youngest, in France)
didn't adopt their husbands' names. The other (also in the USA) changed
her ridiculously long name into a very short one.

In Chile they apply the Spanish system not only to Chilean citizens,
but also to their foreign husbands. My wife needed to have my name
included on a document to show she was married, and I appeared as
Athelstan John Cornish-Bowden Duncan.

I've described before the horrendous problems my wife had when renewing
her British passport in 2016, so I won't you bore you with them again.
>
> When my Belgian ex-wife came to Australia she initially had only a
> temporary residence visa. That meant that she had to get a re-entry
> permit each time we left the country. Each such time I went to the
> relevant government office, and they couldn't find her file. Each time I
> said "The last time I was here she was misfiled under my name. Could you
> check there?" And there it was, not having been fixed the last time.
>
> Long afterwards I realised what the problem was. When we married the
> Belgian authorities added "épouse Moylan" to the name in her passport.
> Probably the Australian office decided that this meant that "épouse" was
> one of her middle names, making Moylan her surname. Hence the filing error.
>
> (In Belgian practice, as in several other European countries, a woman
> always keeps her original name officially. Custom allows the use of the
> husband's name for social reasons, but that is an informal matter
> outside the law.)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

El Thu, 04 Apr 2024 10:20:50 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:

> OK, but what about the two or more surnames that Portuguese people have?
> In Spanish it's easy: paternal first, maternal second.

That's no longer cast in stone (in Spain). As of a while back, the
feminists managed to get the law changed so parents have the choice. So I
would imagine that in line with current masculine = bad feminine = good,
it will completely flip. That said, people here in the countryside are
more trad and prolly won't change something that's not broken.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

On 04/04/24 21:29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-04-04 10:05:37 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

>> I picked this paragraph as an illustration that naming practices
>> vary a lot between countries. In particular, some women change
>> their name on marriage, and some don't. In Australia, as in other
>> English-speaking countries, we have a mixed system, where a
>> married woman is allowed but not compelled to keep her original
>> name.
>
> When I were a lad it was all but universal for women in England to
> change their names on marriage. Nowadays it's as you say. Of my
> three daughters two (the oldest,in the USA, and the youngest, in
> France) didn't adopt their husbands' names. The other (also in the
> USA) changed her ridiculously long name into a very short one.

One of my three wives adopted my surname, and she's no longer alive. In
the next generation, I have two male children. One is unlikely to have
children. The other has a daughter and a son, and I judge that the son
is also unlikely to have children. That means that my name will die out
even before I die. An unfortunate result for someone who has put so much
effort into genealogy.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-04-04 12:32:14 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 04/04/24 21:29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2024-04-04 10:05:37 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>>> I picked this paragraph as an illustration that naming practices
>>> vary a lot between countries. In particular, some women change
>>> their name on marriage, and some don't. In Australia, as in other
>>> English-speaking countries, we have a mixed system, where a
>>> married woman is allowed but not compelled to keep her original
>>> name.
>>
>> When I were a lad it was all but universal for women in England to
>> change their names on marriage. Nowadays it's as you say. Of my
>> three daughters two (the oldest,in the USA, and the youngest, in
>> France) didn't adopt their husbands' names. The other (also in the
>> USA) changed her ridiculously long name into a very short one.
>
> One of my three wives adopted my surname, and she's no longer alive. In
> the next generation, I have two male children. One is unlikely to have
> children. The other has a daughter and a son, and I judge that the son
> is also unlikely to have children. That means that my name will die out
> even before I die. An unfortunate result for someone who has put so much
> effort into genealogy.

My greatgrandfather had 12 children, 6 of whom inherited his Y
chromosome. There are about 105 descendants left that I know of, and
I'm the only one with his Y chromosome. When I'm gone, which can't be
far off as I became 81 yesterday, there'll be no one. In the past
surnames were like Y chromosomes, passed through the male line.
Nowadays Y chromosomes still behave the same way, but surnames have
become more complicated.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Paul Carmichael wrote:

> El Thu, 04 Apr 2024 10:20:50 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:

>> OK, but what about the two or more surnames that Portuguese people have?
>> In Spanish it's easy: paternal first, maternal second.

> That's no longer cast in stone (in Spain). As of a while back, the
> feminists managed to get the law changed so parents have the choice. So I
> would imagine that in line with current masculine = bad feminine = good,
> it will completely flip. That said, people here in the countryside are
> more trad and prolly won't change something that's not broken.

So parents can change the order of the surnames, or change which of
their surnames they give their children, or both?

--
Jerry Friedman

El Thu, 04 Apr 2024 13:45:45 +0000, jerryfriedman escribió:

> Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>> El Thu, 04 Apr 2024 10:20:50 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
>
>>> OK, but what about the two or more surnames that Portuguese people
>>> have?
>>> In Spanish it's easy: paternal first, maternal second.
>
>> That's no longer cast in stone (in Spain). As of a while back, the
>> feminists managed to get the law changed so parents have the choice. So
>> I would imagine that in line with current masculine = bad feminine =
>> good, it will completely flip. That said, people here in the
>> countryside are more trad and prolly won't change something that's not
>> broken.
>
> So parents can change the order of the surnames, or change which of
> their surnames they give their children, or both?

To my knowledge, just the order.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2024-04-04 05:15:07 +0000, Antonio Marques said:

>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Silvano wrote:
>>>
>>>> Christian Weisgerber hat am 30.03.2024 um 21:22 geschrieben:
>>>>>
>>>>> The underlying issue is that in parts of Europe, the order
>>>>> last name/first name can be found to varying degrees. For French
>>>>> names, the names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names
>>>>> or last names, and with both orderings possible, capitalization is
>>>>> used to disambiguate.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Germany, where last name/first name order survives in bureaucratic
>>>>> contexts and dialectal use, capitalization is not used. Ambiguity
>>>>> does not appear to be a problem in practice.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It isn't, with _German_ names. As a translator, I often have to write
>>>> Italian names in German translations of Italian documents and I always
>>>> capitalize the surnames.
>>>
>>>> 1) You wrote correctly that the order last name/first name can be found
>>>> to varying degrees, especially in official documents.
>>>> 2) You also wrote correctly that "for French (and Italian) names, the
>>>> names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names or last names".
>>>> 3) Finally, German readers do not always know which is an Italian first
>>>> name and which is a surname. Actually, in some cases even a native
>>>> Italian like me has to ask that person. If I ever have to do with
>>>> Alessandro Marcello (both are common first names), which is the surname?
>>>> Alessandro as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Alessandro or
>>>> Marcello as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Marcello?
>>>
>>>> P.S. I read regularly (when I have access to a desktop) only AUE. Please
>>>> answer there and tell me, if this discussion is diverted to AEU or
>>>> sci.lang only.
>>>
>>> A funny thing about this is that, I'll bet, ambiguity between given names
>>> and surnames is much more common with English names than with French,
>>> Italian, or German, but we don't feel any need to capitalize surnames.
>>> When a surname is given first, it's almost always followed by a comma.

> OK, but what about the two or more surnames that Portuguese people
> have? In Spanish it's easy: paternal first, maternal second. However, I
> have the impression that Portuguese sometimes follows the Spanish order
> and sometimes inverts it. How do you know which is which?

No idea.

> Another thing is that Spanish* stops at one generation back, but as far
> I can tell Portuguese doesn't always. In 1999 and again in 2003 I was
> on an international panel to assess the quality of chemistry research
> centres in Portugal. We received CVs for the scientists concerned and
> in some cases there were so many names it was impossible to disentangle
> them without studying the list of publications. One person had about
> ten names, about half first names and half surnames, one after another
> with no commas, or capitals after the initial letter.

We could also do the surname of Marc Athanase Parfait Œillet des Murs.

> *Spanish as in Spanish-speaking, not necessarily from Spain. Chile
> follows the system of Spain pretty much exactly: paternal first,
> maternal second; women don't change their names on marriage, though if
> they want to they can put the husband's name at the end, preceded by
> "de". I imagine most countries in Latin America do likewise, but
> Argentina (and I expect Uruguay) is less consistent, and more
> contaminated by anglophone practices.
...

I remember a post in a.u.s. where an Argentinian said that in his university
you could tell the Uruguayans from the Argentinians during roll call on the
first day of class because the Argentinians had one surname and the
Uruguayans had two. A look at some Wikiparticles on soccer players
and coaches suggests that most Argentinians use one surname, but a
few use two.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-04-04 13:59:20 +0000, jerryfriedman said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On 2024-04-04 05:15:07 +0000, Antonio Marques said:
>
>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Silvano wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Christian Weisgerber hat am 30.03.2024 um 21:22 geschrieben:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The underlying issue is that in parts of Europe, the order
>>>>>> last name/first name can be found to varying degrees. For French
>>>>>> names, the names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names
>>>>>> or last names, and with both orderings possible, capitalization is
>>>>>> used to disambiguate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Germany, where last name/first name order survives in bureaucratic
>>>>>> contexts and dialectal use, capitalization is not used. Ambiguity
>>>>>> does not appear to be a problem in practice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It isn't, with _German_ names. As a translator, I often have to write
>>>>> Italian names in German translations of Italian documents and I always
>>>>> capitalize the surnames.
>>>>
>>>>> 1) You wrote correctly that the order last name/first name can be found
>>>>> to varying degrees, especially in official documents.
>>>>> 2) You also wrote correctly that "for French (and Italian) names, the
>>>>> names themselves aren't always unambiguously first names or last names".
>>>>> 3) Finally, German readers do not always know which is an Italian first
>>>>> name and which is a surname. Actually, in some cases even a native
>>>>> Italian like me has to ask that person. If I ever have to do with
>>>>> Alessandro Marcello (both are common first names), which is the surname?
>>>>> Alessandro as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Alessandro or
>>>>> Marcello as https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Marcello?
>>>>
>>>>> P.S. I read regularly (when I have access to a desktop) only AUE. Please
>>>>> answer there and tell me, if this discussion is diverted to AEU or
>>>>> sci.lang only.
>>>>
>>>> A funny thing about this is that, I'll bet, ambiguity between given names
>>>> and surnames is much more common with English names than with French,
>>>> Italian, or German, but we don't feel any need to capitalize surnames.
>>>> When a surname is given first, it's almost always followed by a comma.
>
>> OK, but what about the two or more surnames that Portuguese people
>> have? In Spanish it's easy: paternal first, maternal second. However, I
>> have the impression that Portuguese sometimes follows the Spanish order
>> and sometimes inverts it. How do you know which is which?
>
> No idea.
>
>> Another thing is that Spanish* stops at one generation back, but as far
>> I can tell Portuguese doesn't always. In 1999 and again in 2003 I was
>> on an international panel to assess the quality of chemistry research
>> centres in Portugal. We received CVs for the scientists concerned and
>> in some cases there were so many names it was impossible to disentangle
>> them without studying the list of publications. One person had about
>> ten names, about half first names and half surnames, one after another
>> with no commas, or capitals after the initial letter.
>
> We could also do the surname of Marc Athanase Parfait Œillet des Murs.
>
>> *Spanish as in Spanish-speaking, not necessarily from Spain. Chile
>> follows the system of Spain pretty much exactly: paternal first,
>> maternal second; women don't change their names on marriage, though if
>> they want to they can put the husband's name at the end, preceded by
>> "de". I imagine most countries in Latin America do likewise, but
>> Argentina (and I expect Uruguay) is less consistent, and more
>> contaminated by anglophone practices.
> ..
>
> I remember a post in a.u.s. where an Argentinian said that in his university
> you could tell the Uruguayans from the Argentinians during roll call on the
> first day of class because the Argentinians had one surname and the
> Uruguayans had two. A look at some Wikiparticles on soccer players
> and coaches suggests that most Argentinians use one surname, but a
> few use two.

Interesting. So I was probably wrong when I thought Uruguay would be
similar in this respect to Argentina.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 04-Apr-24 14:12, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> My greatgrandfather had 12 children, 6 of whom inherited his Y
> chromosome. There are about 105 descendants left that I know of, and I'm
> the only one with his Y chromosome. When I'm gone, which can't be far
> off as I became 81 yesterday, there'll be no one. In the past surnames
> were like Y chromosomes, passed through the male line. Nowadays Y
> chromosomes still behave the same way, but surnames have become more
> complicated.

I hope your birthday was celebrated in a suitable fashion.
Many happy returns.

--
Sam Plusnet