It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc times.
"it" will not do.
Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.

bt

Le 03/04/2024 à 04:45, bertietaylor a écrit :
>
> It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc
> times.
> "it" will not do.
> Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
> eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.

I'm not wild about singular 'they' either, but the OED traces it back to
about 1375, rather before modern political correctness. Examples:

Referring to a group: "Leaving every Body to their liberty of believing
what they pleas'd" - Boyer & Savage, 1698.

To avoid indicating gender: "Servants, let me here observe, are called
'helps'. If you call a servant by that name they leave you without
notice" - Fearon, 1818.

bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertietaylor) wrote or quoted:
>It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc times.
>"it" will not do.
>Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
>eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.

But when we hoist the sails and sing, "Up she rises!",
"they" might be clearer.

On 4/3/2024 10:56 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertietaylor) wrote or quoted:
>> It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc times.
>> "it" will not do.
>> Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
>> eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.
>
> But when we hoist the sails and sing, "Up she rises!",
> "they" might be clearer.

but ships in general are female and don't necessarily identify as male
or non-binary (names of old white dudes notwithstanding)

On 2024-04-03 10:01:53 +0000, Kyonshi said:

> On 4/3/2024 10:56 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>> bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertietaylor) wrote or quoted:
>>> It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc times.
>>> "it" will not do.
>>> Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
>>> eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.
>>
>> But when we hoist the sails and sing, "Up she rises!",
>> "they" might be clearer.

Yuck! Once again Stefan Ram draws attention to his tone-deafness. I
don't know why he thinks "they" would be clearer (it isn't) but in any
case the song would be clunky with "they".
>
> but ships in general are female and don't necessarily identify as male
> or non-binary (names of old white dudes notwithstanding)

--
Athel cb

In article <uuj9js$3rr4e$2@dont-email.me>,
gmkeros@gmail.com says...
>
> On 4/3/2024 10:56 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertietaylor) wrote or quoted:
> >> It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc times.
> >> "it" will not do.
> >> Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
> >> eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.
> >
> > But when we hoist the sails and sing, "Up she rises!",
> > "they" might be clearer.
>
> but ships in general are female and don't necessarily identify as male
> or non-binary (names of old white dudes notwithstanding)

Nowadays all ships are in transit.

Janet

On Wed, 3 Apr 2024 03:45:35 +0000, bertietaylor@myyahoo.com
(bertietaylor) wrote:

>It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc times.
>"it" will not do.
>Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
>eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.

It depends on the context.

I'd wonder who wasn't told -- John's parents?

I also get confused when "their" follows "one".

Example: when, instead of saying

"One shouldn't hold one's breath."

people say

"One shouldn't hold their breath."

And then I wonder who "they" are -- it's a pronoun without an
antecedent, an unnamed third party.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 03/04/2024 04:45, bertietaylor wrote:
> It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc
> times.
> "it" will not do.
> Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
> eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.
>
> bt

I've never liked singular "they" in formal written English, but I've
always been used to it in spoken English, if I'm avoiding specifying gender.

What does grate is inconsistent use, for example "a mother and their
child" (I think that one was in the Daily Mail).

Drifting only a little, one that made me smile was Bob Good, quoted on
CNN's website, describing Marjorie Taylor Greene: "she’s a one-man show".

--
Phil B

On 03-Apr-24 11:34, Janet wrote:
> In article <uuj9js$3rr4e$2@dont-email.me>,
> gmkeros@gmail.com says...
>>
>> On 4/3/2024 10:56 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertietaylor) wrote or quoted:
>>>> It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc times.
>>>> "it" will not do.
>>>> Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
>>>> eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.
>>>
>>> But when we hoist the sails and sing, "Up she rises!",
>>> "they" might be clearer.
>>
>> but ships in general are female and don't necessarily identify as male
>> or non-binary (names of old white dudes notwithstanding)
>
> Nowadays all ships are in transit.

Except those in Baltimore.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 2024-04-03 04:01, Kyonshi wrote:
> On 4/3/2024 10:56 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>> bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertietaylor) wrote or quoted:
>>> It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our
>>> pc times.
>>> "it" will not do.
>>> Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
>>> eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.
>>
>>    But when we hoist the sails and sing, "Up she rises!",
>>    "they" might be clearer.
>
> but ships in general are female and don't necessarily identify as male
> or non-binary (names of old white dudes notwithstanding)

The trans-oceanic liners are offended!

--
I can row a boat. Canoe?

Hibou wrote:

> Le 03/04/2024 à 04:45, bertietaylor a écrit :
>>
>> It is now grammatical to use "them' instead of "him" or "her" in our pc
>> times.
>> "it" will not do.
>> Maybe confusing for agreement, not just gender.
>> eg. John was doing well, but no one told them that.

> I'm not wild about singular 'they' either, but the OED traces it back to
> about 1375, rather before modern political correctness. Examples:

> Referring to a group: "Leaving every Body to their liberty of believing
> what they pleas'd" - Boyer & Savage, 1698.

"their" sound better than "his or her" as there is common-ness involved for the group individuals implicitly referred. (Individuals is plural).

> To avoid indicating gender: "Servants, let me here observe, are called
> 'helps'. If you call a servant by that name they leave you without
> notice" - Fearon, 1818.

In a gender-confused environment, that makes perfect sense.
Some languages have gender neutrality. They are in tune with the times!

bt

On 03/04/24 17:00, Hibou wrote:

> To avoid indicating gender: "Servants, let me here observe, are
> called 'helps'. If you call a servant by that name they leave you
> without notice" - Fearon, 1818.

Translated to today's language: If you call a servant by something other
than that person's preferred noun, another servant who self-identifies
as "they" will leave you without notice.

Supplementary question: now that "they" has been reserved as the pronoun
for non-binary people, is it still proper to use "they" for a male or
female person?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW