Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
his assets and net worth.

The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
court in Manhattan.

James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
terms on bank loans and insurance.

She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
statements given to banks and insurers.

The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses.

Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
to requests for comment.

Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
basis in law or fact."

"He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.

"He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."

A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/

Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, kmiller wrote:
> Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
> Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
> civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
> his assets and net worth.
>
> The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
> court in Manhattan.
>
> James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
> of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
> terms on bank loans and insurance.
>
> She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
> and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
> statements given to banks and insurers.
>
> The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
> Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
> Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses.
>
> Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
> to requests for comment.
>
> Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
> several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
> Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
> basis in law or fact."
>
> "He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
> since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
> not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.
>
> "He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
> could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."
>
> A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.
>
> https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/
>
> Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...

Trump organisation is dead; the IRS is now in charge

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 6:18:40 PM UTC-7, robert caprel wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, kmiller wrote:
> > Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
> > Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
> > civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
> > his assets and net worth.
> >
> > The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
> > court in Manhattan.
> >
> > James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
> > of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
> > terms on bank loans and insurance.
> >
> > She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
> > and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
> > statements given to banks and insurers.
> >
> > The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
> > Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
> > Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses.
> >
> > Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
> > to requests for comment.
> >
> > Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
> > several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
> > Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
> > basis in law or fact."
> >
> > "He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
> > since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
> > not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.
> >
> > "He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
> > could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."
> >
> > A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.
> >
> > https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/
> >
> > Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...
> Trump organisation is dead; the IRS is now in charge
Maybe, but if it is, the IRS is not involved. This is all New York State's baby.

It's likely to be many years before we see the end result of this lawsuit.

"Experts are calling it the "corporate death penalty." And what happens next is unchartered territory.

In a stunning decision on Tuesday, a Manhattan judge found that Donald Trump committed widespread, longstanding and ongoing fraud at the Trump Organization, and ordered what experts in New York financial crimes say amounts to the dissolution of his company.

The penalty, awarded on behalf of New York attorney general Letitia James, is so extreme, that Trump may fight James and the judge for years before anything actually happens.

And the penalty is so rare, that the only previous time it's been attempted on such a grand scale – when James sought the corporate death penalty in her three-year-old, ongoing fraud lawsuit against the NRA – has failed."

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-fraud-ruling-corporate-death-penalty-for-his-empire-experts-2023-9

TB

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 7:04:44 PM UTC-7, Technobarbarian wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 6:18:40 PM UTC-7, robert caprel wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, kmiller wrote:
> > > Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
> > > Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
> > > civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
> > > his assets and net worth.
> > >
> > > The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
> > > court in Manhattan.
> > >
> > > James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
> > > of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
> > > terms on bank loans and insurance.
> > >
> > > She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
> > > and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
> > > statements given to banks and insurers.
> > >
> > > The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
> > > Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
> > > Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses.
> > >
> > > Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
> > > to requests for comment.
> > >
> > > Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
> > > several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
> > > Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
> > > basis in law or fact."
> > >
> > > "He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
> > > since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
> > > not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.
> > >
> > > "He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
> > > could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."
> > >
> > > A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.
> > >
> > > https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/
> > >
> > > Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...
> > Trump organisation is dead; the IRS is now in charge
> Maybe, but if it is, the IRS is not involved. This is all New York State's baby.
>
> It's likely to be many years before we see the end result of this lawsuit..
>
> "Experts are calling it the "corporate death penalty." And what happens next is unchartered territory.
>
> In a stunning decision on Tuesday, a Manhattan judge found that Donald Trump committed widespread, longstanding and ongoing fraud at the Trump Organization, and ordered what experts in New York financial crimes say amounts to the dissolution of his company.
>
> The penalty, awarded on behalf of New York attorney general Letitia James, is so extreme, that Trump may fight James and the judge for years before anything actually happens.
>
> And the penalty is so rare, that the only previous time it's been attempted on such a grand scale – when James sought the corporate death penalty in her three-year-old, ongoing fraud lawsuit against the NRA – has failed."
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-fraud-ruling-corporate-death-penalty-for-his-empire-experts-2023-9
>
> TB

Not so fast this ruling is what the IRS needed to move in with impunity to freeze assets to protect its interest and hold same until all appeals are exhausted.

On 9/26/2023 9:04 PM, Technobarbarian wrote:
> The penalty, awarded on behalf of New York attorney general Letitia James, is so extreme, that Trump may fight James and the judge for years before anything actually happens.
>
> And the penalty is so rare, that the only previous time it's been attempted on such a grand scale – when James sought the corporate death penalty in her three-year-old, ongoing fraud lawsuit against the NRA – has failed."
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-fraud-ruling-corporate-death-penalty-for-his-empire-experts-2023-9

This ridiculous case goes back to James auditioning for the job by
promising to get Trump. This case and the NRA case have one thing in
common. They are both being done for political reasons. The NRA case
did actually have charges of theft and misconduct causing harm at least.
However the case was properly redirected by the judge who said:

"Allegations of NRA officials misspending on personal trips, no-show
contracts and other questionable expenditures can be addressed by other
remedies, such as fines and remuneration, and do not warrant the
“corporate death penalty” that Attorney General Letitia James had sought."

She was not interested in rectifying the alleged misconduct, instead her
goal was breaking the NRA though the courts on the corporate level, a
step even further than many of the other frivolous suits brought with
the intent of burying the NRA in legal bills.

The Trump case is similar in motivation. NEVER has there been a
prosecution of this kind, especially in a civil matter. The judges
ruling is only 35 pages and is a telling read. It mostly has to do with
papers filled out in order to attain bank loans and even whether or not
the court can hear these type of arguments. BTW, the judge is not shy
in using colorful adjectives to explain his characterization of
defendants arguments. They clearly show a lack of impartiality IMO.

They are arguing about valuations in the paperwork that the prosecution
says are criminally fraudulent. Yet, no bank in history has ever given
a loan without doing their do diligence of the value of an applicants
assets. Trump is 100% correct when he said in his deposition it is a
meaningless document. It is procedure and a starting point in attaining
a loan.

In writing his opinion, the one thing the judge got right was at the
bottom of page 7 where he acknowledges the key fact in this case that
even if the numbers were wrong, nobody was harmed:

"Defendants correctly assert that the record is devoid of any evidence
of default, breach, late payment, or any complaint of harm and argue
that as none of the recipients of the subject ever lodged a complaint
with OAG or otherwise claimed damages, disgorgement of profits would be
inappropriate. NYSCEF Doc. No. 835 at 40."

What really bothers me is the willingness of otherwise good people to
accept persecution like this in our judicial system for political
reasons. I would hope my side of things never acts like this, even in
retaliation. It is not equal treatment under the law, and is obviously
intended to harm the front runner of a political opposing party. It's a
fucking joke and very harmful to our nation!

kmiller wrote:
> Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
> Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
> civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
> his assets and net worth.
>
> The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
> court in Manhattan.
>
> James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
> of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
> terms on bank loans and insurance.
>
> She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
> and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
> statements given to banks and insurers.
>
> The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
> Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
> Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses.
>
> Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
> to requests for comment.
>
> Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
> several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
> Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
> basis in law or fact."
>
> "He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
> since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
> not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.
>
> "He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
> could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."
>
> A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.
>
> https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/
>
>
> Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...
Don't forget The judge also ordered that certain Trump business
certificates be canceled, and that a receiver be appointed to manage the
dissolution of the LLCs. That reportedly means that Trump could lose
control of some of his properties in the state, including office
buildings, a golf club and even the Trump Tower.

Oh by the way Engoron also fined Trump’s lawyers $7,500 each for
repeating arguments he had previously dismissed.

The Emperor is naked and fat and a total shit!

--
Frank Howell

On 9/27/2023 11:09 AM, sticks wrote:
> On 9/26/2023 9:04 PM, Technobarbarian wrote:
>> The penalty, awarded on behalf of New York attorney general Letitia
>> James, is so extreme, that Trump may fight James and the judge for
>> years before anything actually happens.
>>
>> And the penalty is so rare, that the only previous time it's been
>> attempted on such a grand scale – when James sought the corporate
>> death penalty in her three-year-old, ongoing fraud lawsuit against the
>> NRA – has failed."
>>
>> https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-fraud-ruling-corporate-death-penalty-for-his-empire-experts-2023-9
>
> This ridiculous case goes back to James auditioning for the job by
> promising to get Trump.  This case and the NRA case have one thing in
> common.  They are both being done for political reasons.  The NRA case
> did actually have charges of theft and misconduct causing harm at least.
>  However the case was properly redirected by the judge who said:
>
> "Allegations of NRA officials misspending on personal trips, no-show
> contracts and other questionable expenditures can be addressed by other
> remedies, such as fines and remuneration, and do not warrant the
> “corporate death penalty” that Attorney General Letitia James had sought."
>
> She was not interested in rectifying the alleged misconduct, instead her
> goal was breaking the NRA though the courts on the corporate level, a
> step even further than many of the other frivolous suits brought with
> the intent of burying the NRA in legal bills.
>
> The Trump case is similar in motivation.  NEVER has there been a
> prosecution of this kind, especially in a civil matter.  The judges
> ruling is only 35 pages and is a telling read.  It mostly has to do with
> papers filled out in order to attain bank loans and even whether or not
> the court can hear these type of arguments.  BTW, the judge is not shy
> in using colorful adjectives to explain his characterization of
> defendants arguments.  They clearly show a lack of impartiality IMO.
>
> They are arguing about valuations in the paperwork that the prosecution
> says are criminally fraudulent.  Yet, no bank in history has ever given
> a loan without doing their do diligence of the value of an applicants
> assets.  Trump is 100% correct when he said in his deposition it is a
> meaningless document.  It is procedure and a starting point in attaining
> a loan.
>
> In writing his opinion, the one thing the judge got right was at the
> bottom of page 7 where he acknowledges the key fact in this case that
> even if the numbers were wrong, nobody was harmed:
>
> "Defendants correctly assert that the record is devoid of any evidence
> of default, breach, late payment, or any complaint of harm and argue
> that as none of the recipients of the subject ever lodged a complaint
> with OAG or otherwise claimed damages, disgorgement of profits would be
> inappropriate. NYSCEF Doc. No. 835 at 40."
>
> What really bothers me is the willingness of otherwise good people to
> accept persecution like this in our judicial system for political
> reasons.  I would hope my side of things never acts like this, even in
> retaliation.  It is not equal treatment under the law, and is obviously
> intended to harm the front runner of a political opposing party.  It's a
> fucking joke and very harmful to our nation!

I will add probably the most egregious action of the judge in the case
is his granting of *summary judgement* to the Plaintiffs. In most cases
if a judge decides for a variety of reasons there is no genuine dispute
as to any material fact, he has the option of granting summary
judgement, though he might still prefer to have a trial. In cases where
he rules on matters of law, summary judgement is more clear cut. This
entire case is a dispute of opinions of value, and the importance of
said opinions. Everything is in dispute. To make matters worse, the
judge then sanctioned the Presidents lawyers for doing their job in
presenting a defense for their client. Nullifying their work, and
attempting to muzzle them in the future.

I completely understand the democrats hate trump and his policies, but
if anyone thinks it is OK to live with a system where one man can decide
to not allow a defendant a trial of his peers, destroy a billion dollar
company, and possibly put thousands of people out of work without the
chance of presenting evidence and refuting prosecution evidence and
witnesses, you should move to Venezuela.

Of course this will be appealed, and Trump will prevail. But the damage
will be done and that is what this is all about. A dangerous game the
liberals now play.

sticks wrote:
> On 9/27/2023 11:09 AM, sticks wrote:
>> On 9/26/2023 9:04 PM, Technobarbarian wrote:
>>> The penalty, awarded on behalf of New York attorney general Letitia
>>> James, is so extreme, that Trump may fight James and the judge for
>>> years before anything actually happens.
>>>
>>> And the penalty is so rare, that the only previous time it's been
>>> attempted on such a grand scale – when James sought the corporate
>>> death penalty in her three-year-old, ongoing fraud lawsuit against
>>> the NRA – has failed."
>>>
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-fraud-ruling-corporate-death-penalty-for-his-empire-experts-2023-9
>>>
>>
>> This ridiculous case goes back to James auditioning for the job by
>> promising to get Trump.  This case and the NRA case have one thing
>> in common.  They are both being done for political reasons.  The
>> NRA case did actually have charges of theft and misconduct causing
>> harm at least.  Â However the case was properly redirected by the
>> judge who said:
>>
>> "Allegations of NRA officials misspending on personal trips, no-show
>> contracts and other questionable expenditures can be addressed by
>> other remedies, such as fines and remuneration, and do not warrant
>> the “corporate death penalty” that Attorney General Letitia
>> James had sought."
>>
>> She was not interested in rectifying the alleged misconduct, instead
>> her goal was breaking the NRA though the courts on the corporate
>> level, a step even further than many of the other frivolous suits
>> brought with the intent of burying the NRA in legal bills.
>>
>> The Trump case is similar in motivation.  NEVER has there been a
>> prosecution of this kind, especially in a civil matter.  The judges
>> ruling is only 35 pages and is a telling read.  It mostly has to do
>> with papers filled out in order to attain bank loans and even
>> whether or not the court can hear these type of arguments.  BTW,
>> the judge is not shy in using colorful adjectives to explain his
>> characterization of defendants arguments.  They clearly show a lack
>> of impartiality IMO.
>>
>> They are arguing about valuations in the paperwork that the
>> prosecution says are criminally fraudulent.  Yet, no bank in
>> history has ever given a loan without doing their do diligence of
>> the value of an applicants assets.  Trump is 100% correct when he
>> said in his deposition it is a meaningless document.  It is
>> procedure and a starting point in attaining a loan.
>>
>> In writing his opinion, the one thing the judge got right was at the
>> bottom of page 7 where he acknowledges the key fact in this case
>> that even if the numbers were wrong, nobody was harmed:
>>
>> "Defendants correctly assert that the record is devoid of any
>> evidence of default, breach, late payment, or any complaint of harm
>> and argue that as none of the recipients of the subject ever lodged
>> a complaint with OAG or otherwise claimed damages, disgorgement of
>> profits would be inappropriate. NYSCEF Doc. No. 835 at 40."
>>
>> What really bothers me is the willingness of otherwise good people
>> to accept persecution like this in our judicial system for political
>> reasons.  I would hope my side of things never acts like this, even
>> in retaliation.  It is not equal treatment under the law, and is
>> obviously intended to harm the front runner of a political opposing
>> party.  It's a fucking joke and very harmful to our nation!
>
> I will add probably the most egregious action of the judge in the case
> is his granting of *summary judgement* to the Plaintiffs.  In most
> cases if a judge decides for a variety of reasons there is no genuine
> dispute as to any material fact, he has the option of granting summary
> judgement, though he might still prefer to have a trial.  In cases
> where he rules on matters of law, summary judgement is more clear
> cut.  This entire case is a dispute of opinions of value, and the
> importance of said opinions.  Everything is in dispute.  To make
> matters worse, the judge then sanctioned the Presidents lawyers for
> doing their job in presenting a defense for their client.  Nullifying
> their work, and attempting to muzzle them in the future.
>
> I completely understand the democrats hate trump and his policies, but
> if anyone thinks it is OK to live with a system where one man can
> decide to not allow a defendant a trial of his peers, destroy a
> billion dollar company, and possibly put thousands of people out of
> work without the chance of presenting evidence and refuting
> prosecution evidence and witnesses, you should move to Venezuela.
>
> Of course this will be appealed, and Trump will prevail.  But the
> damage will be done and that is what this is all about.  A dangerous
> game the liberals now play.
>
The First Rule of Assault Spaghetti Warfare:
Keep throwing it. Spaghetti is cheap.

Even if it doesn't stick - which most of it doesn't - it'll still
leave a stain.

--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.

On 9/27/2023 3:35 PM, bfh wrote:
> sticks wrote:
>> On 9/27/2023 11:09 AM, sticks wrote:
>>> On 9/26/2023 9:04 PM, Technobarbarian wrote:
>>>> The penalty, awarded on behalf of New York attorney general Letitia
>>>> James, is so extreme, that Trump may fight James and the judge for
>>>> years before anything actually happens.
>>>>
>>>> And the penalty is so rare, that the only previous time it's been
>>>> attempted on such a grand scale – when James sought the corporate
>>>> death penalty in her three-year-old, ongoing fraud lawsuit against
>>>> the NRA – has failed."
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-fraud-ruling-corporate-death-penalty-for-his-empire-experts-2023-9
>>>
>>> This ridiculous case goes back to James auditioning for the job by
>>> promising to get Trump.  This case and the NRA case have one thing
>>> in common.  They are both being done for political reasons.  The
>>> NRA case did actually have charges of theft and misconduct causing
>>> harm at least.  Â However the case was properly redirected by the
>>> judge who said:
>>>
>>> "Allegations of NRA officials misspending on personal trips, no-show
>>> contracts and other questionable expenditures can be addressed by
>>> other remedies, such as fines and remuneration, and do not warrant
>>> the “corporate death penalty” that Attorney General Letitia James
>>> had sought."
>>>
>>> She was not interested in rectifying the alleged misconduct, instead
>>> her goal was breaking the NRA though the courts on the corporate
>>> level, a step even further than many of the other frivolous suits
>>> brought with the intent of burying the NRA in legal bills.
>>>
>>> The Trump case is similar in motivation.  NEVER has there been a
>>> prosecution of this kind, especially in a civil matter.  The judges
>>> ruling is only 35 pages and is a telling read.  It mostly has to do
>>> with papers filled out in order to attain bank loans and even whether
>>> or not the court can hear these type of arguments.  BTW, the judge
>>> is not shy in using colorful adjectives to explain his
>>> characterization of defendants arguments.  They clearly show a lack
>>> of impartiality IMO.
>>>
>>> They are arguing about valuations in the paperwork that the
>>> prosecution says are criminally fraudulent.  Yet, no bank in history
>>> has ever given a loan without doing their do diligence of the value
>>> of an applicants assets.  Trump is 100% correct when he said in his
>>> deposition it is a meaningless document.  It is procedure and a
>>> starting point in attaining a loan.
>>>
>>> In writing his opinion, the one thing the judge got right was at the
>>> bottom of page 7 where he acknowledges the key fact in this case that
>>> even if the numbers were wrong, nobody was harmed:
>>>
>>> "Defendants correctly assert that the record is devoid of any
>>> evidence of default, breach, late payment, or any complaint of harm
>>> and argue that as none of the recipients of the subject ever lodged a
>>> complaint with OAG or otherwise claimed damages, disgorgement of
>>> profits would be inappropriate. NYSCEF Doc. No. 835 at 40."
>>>
>>> What really bothers me is the willingness of otherwise good people to
>>> accept persecution like this in our judicial system for political
>>> reasons.  I would hope my side of things never acts like this, even
>>> in retaliation.  It is not equal treatment under the law, and is
>>> obviously intended to harm the front runner of a political opposing
>>> party.  It's a fucking joke and very harmful to our nation!
>>
>> I will add probably the most egregious action of the judge in the case
>> is his granting of *summary judgement* to the Plaintiffs.  In most
>> cases if a judge decides for a variety of reasons there is no genuine
>> dispute as to any material fact, he has the option of granting summary
>> judgement, though he might still prefer to have a trial.  In cases
>> where he rules on matters of law, summary judgement is more clear
>> cut.  This entire case is a dispute of opinions of value, and the
>> importance of said opinions.  Everything is in dispute.  To make
>> matters worse, the judge then sanctioned the Presidents lawyers for
>> doing their job in presenting a defense for their client.  Nullifying
>> their work, and attempting to muzzle them in the future.
>>
>> I completely understand the democrats hate trump and his policies, but
>> if anyone thinks it is OK to live with a system where one man can
>> decide to not allow a defendant a trial of his peers, destroy a
>> billion dollar company, and possibly put thousands of people out of
>> work without the chance of presenting evidence and refuting
>> prosecution evidence and witnesses, you should move to Venezuela.
>>
>> Of course this will be appealed, and Trump will prevail.  But the
>> damage will be done and that is what this is all about.  A dangerous
>> game the liberals now play.
>>
> The First Rule of Assault Spaghetti Warfare:
> Keep throwing it. Spaghetti is cheap.
>
> Even if it doesn't stick - which most of it doesn't - it'll still leave
> a stain.

Spaghetti is very cheap when it is the government throwing it. They
don't care what it costs. They're not paying, the taxing base is. They
just go get more.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, kmiller wrote:
> Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
> Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
> civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
> his assets and net worth.
>
> The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
> court in Manhattan.
>
> James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
> of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
> terms on bank loans and insurance.
>
> She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
> and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
> statements given to banks and insurers.
>
> The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
> Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
> Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses.
>
> Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
> to requests for comment.
>
> Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
> several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
> Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
> basis in law or fact."
>
> "He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
> since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
> not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.
>
> "He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
> could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."
>
> A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.
>
> https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/
>
> Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...

The Saudi connection to all of this is fun. #45 has mentioned his ability to sell to the
Saudi's, at inflated prices, in court, more than once.

"Shortly after being indicted on charges of paying hush money to an adult-film actress, Donald Trump sat for a deposition in his separate financial fraud trial and bragged about being able to sell his properties at an inflated rate to Saudi Arabian interests.

A New York judge noted the boasts in a major ruling on Tuesday that found Trump and his company had committed fraud for years. The judge further suggested that such prices might have had more to do with buying influence than buying properties — a relevant point given Trump’s controversial post-presidency business arrangements with the Saudis.

In his ruling, New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron pointed to what he viewed as a particularly strained argument from Trump: that the property values Trump inflated to increase his perceived net worth could be correct because someone might pay them.

And Trump repeatedly pointed to a particular someone: the Saudis.

“He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he could find a ‘buyer from Saudi Arabia’ to pay any price he suggests,” Engoron wrote.

Then, in a conspicuously inserted footnote, Engoron added: “This statement may suggest influence buying more than savvy investing.”

But it wasn’t the only time Trump talked recently about being able to take Saudi money in controversial ways. Trump keeps talking about this, even after controversy erupted over his son-in-law Jared Kushner’s acceptance of $2 billion in financing from the Saudi Public Investment Fund shortly after Trump left office, even after Trump went into business with the Saudis, even after the GOP criticized the Bidens for purportedly being compromised by foreign money, and even after Trump criticized politicians for taking foreign money in the past, including from Saudi Arabia."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/09/27/trump-saudis-influence-buying/

TB

On 9/27/2023 5:34 PM, TechnoBoob wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, kmiller wrote:
>> Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
>> Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
>> civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
>> his assets and net worth.
>>
>> The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
>> court in Manhattan.
>>
>> James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
>> of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
>> terms on bank loans and insurance.
>>
>> She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
>> and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
>> statements given to banks and insurers.
>>
>> The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
>> Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
>> Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses.
>>
>> Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
>> to requests for comment.
>>
>> Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
>> several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
>> Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
>> basis in law or fact."
>>
>> "He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
>> since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
>> not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.
>>
>> "He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
>> could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."
>>
>> A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.
>>
>> https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/
>>
>> Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...
>
> The Saudi connection to all of this is fun. #45 has mentioned his ability to sell to the
> Saudi's, at inflated prices, in court, more than once.
>
> "Shortly after being indicted on charges of paying hush money to an adult-film actress, Donald Trump sat for a deposition in his separate financial fraud trial and bragged about being able to sell his properties at an inflated rate to Saudi Arabian interests.
>
> A New York judge noted the boasts in a major ruling on Tuesday that found Trump and his company had committed fraud for years. The judge further suggested that such prices might have had more to do with buying influence than buying properties — a relevant point given Trump’s controversial post-presidency business arrangements with the Saudis.
>
> In his ruling, New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron pointed to what he viewed as a particularly strained argument from Trump: that the property values Trump inflated to increase his perceived net worth could be correct because someone might pay them.
>
> And Trump repeatedly pointed to a particular someone: the Saudis.
>
> “He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he could find a ‘buyer from Saudi Arabia’ to pay any price he suggests,” Engoron wrote.
>
> Then, in a conspicuously inserted footnote, Engoron added: “This statement may suggest influence buying more than savvy investing.”
>
> But it wasn’t the only time Trump talked recently about being able to take Saudi money in controversial ways. Trump keeps talking about this, even after controversy erupted over his son-in-law Jared Kushner’s acceptance of $2 billion in financing from the Saudi Public Investment Fund shortly after Trump left office, even after Trump went into business with the Saudis, even after the GOP criticized the Bidens for purportedly being compromised by foreign money, and even after Trump criticized politicians for taking foreign money in the past, including from Saudi Arabia."
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/09/27/trump-saudis-influence-buying/
>
> TB

Fucking hilarious. The judges comment again shows lack of impartiality.
I'll give you a hint. Trump is a businessman. The Saudis have lots
of money. The Saudis like his stuff and are willing to pay for it.
They get nothing in American policy making in return for it. They just
get to make more money. Though I guess the Abraham accords must also be
somehow a bad thing to you libs.

Yet, the Bidens have no business expertise. Take in millions from
corrupt foreign governments, usually governments who are not considered
our allies. Give said foreign entities access to our politicians and
get favorable policy. Lie about everything, all the time, and it means
nothing to you phony shitheads. More of this made up truth of yours.
"But, but, but, I provided a source!"

On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 3:48:30 PM UTC-7, sticks wrote:
> On 9/27/2023 5:34 PM, TechnoBoob wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, kmiller wrote:
> >> Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
> >> Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
> >> civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
> >> his assets and net worth.
> >>
> >> The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
> >> court in Manhattan.
> >>
> >> James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
> >> of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
> >> terms on bank loans and insurance.
> >>
> >> She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
> >> and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
> >> statements given to banks and insurers.
> >>
> >> The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
> >> Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
> >> Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses..
> >>
> >> Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
> >> to requests for comment.
> >>
> >> Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
> >> several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
> >> Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
> >> basis in law or fact."
> >>
> >> "He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
> >> since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
> >> not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.
> >>
> >> "He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
> >> could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."
> >>
> >> A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.
> >>
> >> https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/
> >>
> >> Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...
> >
> > The Saudi connection to all of this is fun. #45 has mentioned his ability to sell to the
> > Saudi's, at inflated prices, in court, more than once.
> >
> > "Shortly after being indicted on charges of paying hush money to an adult-film actress, Donald Trump sat for a deposition in his separate financial fraud trial and bragged about being able to sell his properties at an inflated rate to Saudi Arabian interests.
> >
> > A New York judge noted the boasts in a major ruling on Tuesday that found Trump and his company had committed fraud for years. The judge further suggested that such prices might have had more to do with buying influence than buying properties — a relevant point given Trump’s controversial post-presidency business arrangements with the Saudis.
> >
> > In his ruling, New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron pointed to what he viewed as a particularly strained argument from Trump: that the property values Trump inflated to increase his perceived net worth could be correct because someone might pay them.
> >
> > And Trump repeatedly pointed to a particular someone: the Saudis.
> >
> > “He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he could find a ‘buyer from Saudi Arabia’ to pay any price he suggests,” Engoron wrote.
> >
> > Then, in a conspicuously inserted footnote, Engoron added: “This statement may suggest influence buying more than savvy investing.”
> >
> > But it wasn’t the only time Trump talked recently about being able to take Saudi money in controversial ways. Trump keeps talking about this, even after controversy erupted over his son-in-law Jared Kushner’s acceptance of $2 billion in financing from the Saudi Public Investment Fund shortly after Trump left office, even after Trump went into business with the Saudis, even after the GOP criticized the Bidens for purportedly being compromised by foreign money, and even after Trump criticized politicians for taking foreign money in the past, including from Saudi Arabia."
> >
> > https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/09/27/trump-saudis-influence-buying/
> >
> > TB
> Fucking hilarious. The judges comment again shows lack of impartiality.
> I'll give you a hint. Trump is a businessman. The Saudis have lots
> of money. The Saudis like his stuff and are willing to pay for it.
> They get nothing in American policy making in return for it. They just
> get to make more money. Though I guess the Abraham accords must also be
> somehow a bad thing to you libs.
>
> Yet, the Bidens have no business expertise. Take in millions from
> corrupt foreign governments, usually governments who are not considered
> our allies. Give said foreign entities access to our politicians and
> get favorable policy. Lie about everything, all the time, and it means
> nothing to you phony shitheads. More of this made up truth of yours.
> "But, but, but, I provided a source!"

Give you another hint, Trump is a serial shyster and con man same as Bernie Madoff

On 9/27/2023 3:34 PM, Technobarbarian wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, kmiller wrote:
>> Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
>> Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
>> civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
>> his assets and net worth.
>>
>> The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
>> court in Manhattan.
>>
>> James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
>> of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
>> terms on bank loans and insurance.
>>
>> She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
>> and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
>> statements given to banks and insurers.
>>
>> The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
>> Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
>> Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses.
>>
>> Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
>> to requests for comment.
>>
>> Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
>> several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
>> Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
>> basis in law or fact."
>>
>> "He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
>> since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
>> not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.
>>
>> "He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
>> could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."
>>
>> A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.
>>
>> https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/
>>
>> Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...
>
> The Saudi connection to all of this is fun. #45 has mentioned his ability to sell to the
> Saudi's, at inflated prices, in court, more than once.
>
> "Shortly after being indicted on charges of paying hush money to an adult-film actress, Donald Trump sat for a deposition in his separate financial fraud trial and bragged about being able to sell his properties at an inflated rate to Saudi Arabian interests.
>
> A New York judge noted the boasts in a major ruling on Tuesday that found Trump and his company had committed fraud for years. The judge further suggested that such prices might have had more to do with buying influence than buying properties — a relevant point given Trump’s controversial post-presidency business arrangements with the Saudis.
>
> In his ruling, New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron pointed to what he viewed as a particularly strained argument from Trump: that the property values Trump inflated to increase his perceived net worth could be correct because someone might pay them.
>
> And Trump repeatedly pointed to a particular someone: the Saudis.
>
> “He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he could find a ‘buyer from Saudi Arabia’ to pay any price he suggests,” Engoron wrote.
>
> Then, in a conspicuously inserted footnote, Engoron added: “This statement may suggest influence buying more than savvy investing.”
>
> But it wasn’t the only time Trump talked recently about being able to take Saudi money in controversial ways. Trump keeps talking about this, even after controversy erupted over his son-in-law Jared Kushner’s acceptance of $2 billion in financing from the Saudi Public Investment Fund shortly after Trump left office, even after Trump went into business with the Saudis, even after the GOP criticized the Bidens for purportedly being compromised by foreign money, and even after Trump criticized politicians for taking foreign money in the past, including from Saudi Arabia."
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/09/27/trump-saudis-influence-buying/
>
> TB

Yeah. An there's this:

The judge was unsparing in his decision, criticizing the Trumps’ defense
arguments.

“Exacerbating defendants’ obstreperous conduct is their continued
reliance on bogus arguments, in papers and oral argument,” Engoron wrote.

The state supreme court judge likened the Trumps’ legal defense of his
fraudulent financial statements to a Chico Marx line in the comedy “Duck
Soup”: “Well, who ya gonna believe, me or your own eyes?”

James has alleged that Trump, three of his children, his companies and
his business executives defrauded lenders, insurers and other entities.
(An appeals court dismissed Trump’s eldest daughter, Ivanka, as a
co-defendant from the case in June.)

In the lawsuit, James claims that Trump reaped a “substantial” financial
benefit by putting forward faulty information in his financial
statements, including $150 million in the form of favorable interest
rates he obtained from the banks that the attorney general said his team
misled.

In the order, the judge rejected Trump’s deposition testimony in which
the former president said that the financial statements were not
fraudulent because they contained disclaimers. Trump said the statements
contained a “worthless clause” in them warning lenders and others that
they shouldn’t be relied on.

Tuesday, the judge said that “the defendants’ reliance on these
‘worthless’ disclaimers is worthless.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/26/politics/trump-organization-business-fraud/index.html

But, hey! It's a judge saying it. Who you gonna belive? HawHawHaw!

Spaghetti! HqwHawHaw! Duck soup! HawHawHaw! You guys really hate that
you're finally getting to see what we been saying for a long time - he's
a lying, cheating, scumbag. He's always been a lying, cheating scumbag.
One of these days he'll be a broke, lying, cheating, convicted scumbag.

Then, of course, you'll claim that you always knew it! HawHawHaw!

On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 6:49:49 PM UTC-7, kmiller wrote:
> On 9/27/2023 3:34 PM, Technobarbarian wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, kmiller wrote:
> >> Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on
> >> Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James'
> >> civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating
> >> his assets and net worth.
> >>
> >> The decision was issued by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state
> >> court in Manhattan.
> >>
> >> James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him and the Trump Organization
> >> of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better
> >> terms on bank loans and insurance.
> >>
> >> She has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion,
> >> and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial
> >> statements given to banks and insurers.
> >>
> >> The attorney general has said assets whose values were inflated included
> >> Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in
> >> Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses..
> >>
> >> Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond
> >> to requests for comment.
> >>
> >> Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of
> >> several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse, and chided
> >> Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without
> >> basis in law or fact."
> >>
> >> "He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years
> >> since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were
> >> not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.
> >>
> >> "He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he
> >> could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."
> >>
> >> A trial is scheduled for Oct. 2, and could last well into December.
> >>
> >> https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/
> >>
> >> Lying, cheating scumbag. But, you knew that...
> >
> > The Saudi connection to all of this is fun. #45 has mentioned his ability to sell to the
> > Saudi's, at inflated prices, in court, more than once.
> >
> > "Shortly after being indicted on charges of paying hush money to an adult-film actress, Donald Trump sat for a deposition in his separate financial fraud trial and bragged about being able to sell his properties at an inflated rate to Saudi Arabian interests.
> >
> > A New York judge noted the boasts in a major ruling on Tuesday that found Trump and his company had committed fraud for years. The judge further suggested that such prices might have had more to do with buying influence than buying properties — a relevant point given Trump’s controversial post-presidency business arrangements with the Saudis.
> >
> > In his ruling, New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron pointed to what he viewed as a particularly strained argument from Trump: that the property values Trump inflated to increase his perceived net worth could be correct because someone might pay them.
> >
> > And Trump repeatedly pointed to a particular someone: the Saudis.
> >
> > “He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he could find a ‘buyer from Saudi Arabia’ to pay any price he suggests,” Engoron wrote.
> >
> > Then, in a conspicuously inserted footnote, Engoron added: “This statement may suggest influence buying more than savvy investing.”
> >
> > But it wasn’t the only time Trump talked recently about being able to take Saudi money in controversial ways. Trump keeps talking about this, even after controversy erupted over his son-in-law Jared Kushner’s acceptance of $2 billion in financing from the Saudi Public Investment Fund shortly after Trump left office, even after Trump went into business with the Saudis, even after the GOP criticized the Bidens for purportedly being compromised by foreign money, and even after Trump criticized politicians for taking foreign money in the past, including from Saudi Arabia."
> >
> > https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/09/27/trump-saudis-influence-buying/
> >
> > TB
> Yeah. An there's this:
>
> The judge was unsparing in his decision, criticizing the Trumps’ defense
> arguments.
>
> “Exacerbating defendants’ obstreperous conduct is their continued
> reliance on bogus arguments, in papers and oral argument,” Engoron wrote.
>
> The state supreme court judge likened the Trumps’ legal defense of his
> fraudulent financial statements to a Chico Marx line in the comedy “Duck
> Soup”: “Well, who ya gonna believe, me or your own eyes?”
>
> James has alleged that Trump, three of his children, his companies and
> his business executives defrauded lenders, insurers and other entities.
> (An appeals court dismissed Trump’s eldest daughter, Ivanka, as a
> co-defendant from the case in June.)
>
> In the lawsuit, James claims that Trump reaped a “substantial” financial
> benefit by putting forward faulty information in his financial
> statements, including $150 million in the form of favorable interest
> rates he obtained from the banks that the attorney general said his team
> misled.
>
> In the order, the judge rejected Trump’s deposition testimony in which
> the former president said that the financial statements were not
> fraudulent because they contained disclaimers. Trump said the statements
> contained a “worthless clause” in them warning lenders and others that
> they shouldn’t be relied on.
>
> Tuesday, the judge said that “the defendants’ reliance on these
> ‘worthless’ disclaimers is worthless.”
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/26/politics/trump-organization-business-fraud/index.html
>
> But, hey! It's a judge saying it. Who you gonna belive? HawHawHaw!
>
> Spaghetti! HqwHawHaw! Duck soup! HawHawHaw! You guys really hate that
> you're finally getting to see what we been saying for a long time - he's
> a lying, cheating, scumbag. He's always been a lying, cheating scumbag.
> One of these days he'll be a broke, lying, cheating, convicted scumbag.
>
> Then, of course, you'll claim that you always knew it! HawHawHaw!

I doubt it. It's more likely that none of that will affect the cult and the magaloons will still be sending money to their orange Buddha. Ain't you heard? "It's all political." Like all liars everywhere they automatically assume everyone is a lying cheating scum bag. The difference is that #45 it *their* scumbag. After all, it's all for a good cause. The clock isn't going to turn itself back to the past by itself.

TB