I regularly go past a grocercy store in Pittsburgh that has
the name, Sultan Bey. They offer international ingredients,
which is also suggested by their name.

It recently struck me that I understand the two words
to be offices of the Ottoman Empire, or something like
that, and it seems strange to have them combined,
especially for the name of a store-- like, "President
Governor" or "King General". We don't name stores
like that, so something seems off.

Googling gets me several hotels and resorts around the
world that go by the same name, so this cibubatuib is not
easily dismissed as unique and weird.

Google shows me that there 'sultan' has had a meaning
of its own, like 'strong' ...

I guess I'm thinking, this name means something to
some other people, based on other definitions or overtones
of the words. So, I wonder, what would a good translator
give as an Americanization of what Arabic speakers think
when they hear Sultan Bey?

--
Rich Ulrich

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote or quoted:
>especially for the name of a store-- like, "President
>Governor" or "King General". We don't name stores
>like that, so something seems off.

Another transliteration of "bey" is "bek".
"Sultanbek" seems to be a name.

>what Arabic speakers think when they hear Sultan Bey?

When individuals encounter names, the original semantic meaning of
the constituent elements often fades from conscious consideration.

For instance, upon hearing the surname "Miller," the immediate
association may no longer be with the concept of a mill or
grinding mechanism, despite the etymological origin of the name.

This phenomenon of semantic shift is a common occurrence in
the evolution of proper nouns, where the initial denotative
meaning becomes obscured over time as the name is adopted
and integrated into the cultural lexicon.

On 13/04/2024 07:34, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> I regularly go past a grocercy store in Pittsburgh that has
> the name, Sultan Bey. They offer international ingredients,
> which is also suggested by their name.
>
> It recently struck me that I understand the two words
> to be offices of the Ottoman Empire,

'Bey' is just an honorific title, like 'Mr.' or 'Sir'.

You are correct about 'Sultan', it is a title of high office, like
'ruler' or 'governor'.

'International ingredients' grates. Do you mean middle eastern /
oriental produce? Do they have baklava? Get me a dozen with the
pistachio fillings next time you're there.

Rich Ulrich wrote:

> Googling gets me several hotels and resorts around the
> world that go by the same name, so this cibubatuib is not
> easily dismissed as unique and weird.

California International Business University ... ?

> I guess I'm thinking, this name means something to
> some other people, based on other definitions or overtones
> of the words. So, I wonder, what would a good translator
> give as an Americanization of what Arabic speakers think
> when they hear Sultan Bey?

Maybe they don't think too much about the name? We have a Danish mall
named "field's" (sometimes spelled "Field's"). It's no use trying to
figure out what went through their minds when they chose that name.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

In article <ag5k1jlh4i45l5stu559g0vbdp0ch5mjqp@4ax.com>,
rich.ulrich@comcast.net says...
>
> I regularly go past a grocercy store in Pittsburgh that has
> the name, Sultan Bey. They offer international ingredients,
> which is also suggested by their name.
>
> It recently struck me that I understand the two words
> to be offices of the Ottoman Empire, or something like
> that, and it seems strange to have them combined,
> especially for the name of a store-- like, "President
> Governor" or "King General". We don't name stores
> like that, so something seems off.
>
> Googling gets me several hotels and resorts around the
> world that go by the same name, so this cibubatuib is not
> easily dismissed as unique and weird.
>
> Google shows me that there 'sultan' has had a meaning
> of its own, like 'strong' ...
>
> I guess I'm thinking, this name means something to
> some other people, based on other definitions or overtones
> of the words. So, I wonder, what would a good translator
> give as an Americanization of what Arabic speakers think
> when they hear Sultan Bey?

"Duke's Deli".

Meghan and Harry should keep this in mind for their new
cookery enterprise.
Janet UK

Janet

In article <names-20240413071135@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>,
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de says...
>
> Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote or quoted:
> >especially for the name of a store-- like, "President
> >Governor" or "King General". We don't name stores
> >like that, so something seems off.
>
> Another transliteration of "bey" is "bek".
> "Sultanbek" seems to be a name.
>
> >what Arabic speakers think when they hear Sultan Bey?
>
> When individuals encounter names, the original semantic meaning of
> the constituent elements often fades from conscious consideration.
>
> For instance, upon hearing the surname "Miller," the immediate
> association may no longer be with the concept of a mill or
> grinding mechanism, despite the etymological origin of
the name.

Indeed, when your name turns up it never reminds one of
a horny old goat.

Janet

On 13/04/24 16:18, Stefan Ram wrote:

> This phenomenon of semantic shift is a common occurrence in the
> evolution of proper nouns, where the initial denotative meaning
> becomes obscured over time as the name is adopted and integrated into
> the cultural lexicon.

This still reads like the sort of crap that is churned out by AIs.

That's a good thing, I guess. It means that we can still tell the
difference between human-generated text and AI-generated text. In other
words, Stefan still hasn't passed the Turing test.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 13/04/24 17:23, occam wrote:
> On 13/04/2024 07:34, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>> I regularly go past a grocercy store in Pittsburgh that has the
>> name, Sultan Bey. They offer international ingredients, which is
>> also suggested by their name.
>>
>> It recently struck me that I understand the two words to be offices
>> of the Ottoman Empire,
>
> 'Bey' is just an honorific title, like 'Mr.' or 'Sir'.
>
> You are correct about 'Sultan', it is a title of high office, like
> 'ruler' or 'governor'.
>
> 'International ingredients' grates. Do you mean middle eastern /
> oriental produce? Do they have baklava? Get me a dozen with the
> pistachio fillings next time you're there.

In my local supermarket "international ingredients" means Chinese,
Japanese, Indonesian, Indian, or New Zealand[1] products. The PNG
cuisine has not yet entered out culture.

[1] Our NZ friends probably resent being classified as foreign, but so
it goes.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 13/04/2024 13:58, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 13/04/24 17:23, occam wrote:
>> On 13/04/2024 07:34, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>>> I regularly go past a grocercy store in Pittsburgh that has the
>>> name, Sultan Bey.  They offer international ingredients, which is
>>> also suggested by their name.
>>>
>>> It recently struck me that I understand the two words to be offices
>>> of the Ottoman Empire,
>>
>> 'Bey' is just an honorific title, like 'Mr.' or 'Sir'.
>>
>> You are correct about 'Sultan', it is a title of high office, like
>> 'ruler' or 'governor'.
>>
>> 'International ingredients' grates. Do you mean middle eastern /
>> oriental produce?  Do they have baklava? Get me a dozen with the
>> pistachio fillings next time you're there.
>
> In my local supermarket "international ingredients" means Chinese,
> Japanese, Indonesian, Indian, or New Zealand[1] products.

Why only? Where would European produce go e.g. French wine, Italian
cheeses, Alpine water?

>
> [1] Our NZ friends probably resent being classified as foreign, but so
> it goes.
>

This used to be the case for NZ and Australian visitors to the UK,
before Brexit. 'Non-EU' or 'Other' always grates, especially for
Commonwealth visitors.

In article <ag5k1jlh4i45l5stu559g0vbdp0ch5mjqp@4ax.com>,
Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:
>I regularly go past a grocercy store in Pittsburgh that has
>the name, Sultan Bey. They offer international ingredients,
>which is also suggested by their name.
>
>It recently struck me that I understand the two words
>to be offices of the Ottoman Empire, or something like
>that, and it seems strange to have them combined,
>especially for the name of a store-- like, "President
>Governor" or "King General". We don't name stores
>like that, so something seems off.
>
>Googling gets me several hotels and resorts around the
>world that go by the same name, so this cibubatuib is not
>easily dismissed as unique and weird.

"Bey" is Turkish, and means something like "governor of a province"; for
instance, the Bey of Tunis. "Sultan" (Turkish but of Arabic origin) means
"king" or "emperor"; for instance, the Sultan of Morocco (now called King
of Morocco).

Since titles are placed after the name in Turkish, "Sultan Bey" would be a
governor named "King"; whether there was such a person in real life, I've
no idea.

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 09:23:03 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 13/04/2024 07:34, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>> I regularly go past a grocercy store in Pittsburgh that has
>> the name, Sultan Bey. They offer international ingredients,
>> which is also suggested by their name.
>>
>> It recently struck me that I understand the two words
>> to be offices of the Ottoman Empire,
>
>'Bey' is just an honorific title, like 'Mr.' or 'Sir'.
>
>You are correct about 'Sultan', it is a title of high office, like
>'ruler' or 'governor'.

- Thanks -

>
>'International ingredients' grates. Do you mean middle eastern /
>oriental produce? Do they have baklava? Get me a dozen with the
>pistachio fillings next time you're there.

I thought I was borrowing from a Google-hit when I wrote
'international ingredients' but I don't see that one today.

The FaceBook page for Sultan Bey says,
We provide all your imported cultural and exotic ingredients
ranging from the Middle East all the way to India to fulfill the
perfect experience you desire at the fraction of cost!

I don't mind that I may have translated 'imported cultural
and exotic ingredients' into 'international ingredients'.
I guess their phrase does more to catch one's attention;
it does not sound like AmE.

--
Rich Ulrich

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024, at 17:01:29, Pierre Jelenc posted:
>In article <ag5k1jlh4i45l5stu559g0vbdp0ch5mjqp@4ax.com>,
>Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:
>>I regularly go past a grocercy store in Pittsburgh that has
>>the name, Sultan Bey. They offer international ingredients,
>>which is also suggested by their name.
>>
>>It recently struck me that I understand the two words
>>to be offices of the Ottoman Empire, or something like
>>that, and it seems strange to have them combined,
>>especially for the name of a store-- like, "President
>>Governor" or "King General". We don't name stores
>>like that, so something seems off.
>>
>>Googling gets me several hotels and resorts around the
>>world that go by the same name, so this cibubatuib is not
>>easily dismissed as unique and weird.
>
>"Bey" is Turkish, and means something like "governor of a province"; for
>instance, the Bey of Tunis. "Sultan" (Turkish but of Arabic origin) means
>"king" or "emperor"; for instance, the Sultan of Morocco (now called King
>of Morocco).
>
>Since titles are placed after the name in Turkish, "Sultan Bey" would be a
>governor named "King"; whether there was such a person in real life, I've
>no idea.
>
My family legend tells me of a street in pre-war [guess which war]
Alexandria [guess which country] called Rue Adrian Bey [yes, the French
had a hand in the history], and I've always been curious as to who
Adrian Bey actually was. Not a Roman emperor Hadrian, I'm pretty sure.
--
Paul W

On 14/04/24 00:29, occam wrote:
> On 13/04/2024 13:58, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> In my local supermarket "international ingredients" means Chinese,
>> Japanese, Indonesian, Indian, or New Zealand[1] products.
>
> Why only? Where would European produce go e.g. French wine, Italian
> cheeses, Alpine water?

We don't have wine in supermarkets. In the bottle shops, there's so much
Australian wine that imported wines (other than NZ wine) probably take
only about 1% of the shelf space.

Imported cheese sits in the cheese section with all the other cheeses,
and likewise for most other imported products. But a supermarket will
often have a quarter of an aisle devoted to the more exotic stuff like
sambal oelek, with the label "Asian foods" or "international food".

>> [1] Our NZ friends probably resent being classified as foreign, but
>> so it goes.
>
> This used to be the case for NZ and Australian visitors to the UK,
> before Brexit. 'Non-EU' or 'Other' always grates, especially for
> Commonwealth visitors.

It didn't bother me too much. Once the EU had been fully set up, I
appreciated being able to travel all over Europe without a visa, and in
most cases without having to show my passport. The only border problems
I had were in entering Franch, in a period where the French were hostile
towards Australians.

I guess that Heathrow was one of the most unfriendly ports of entry. I'm
so worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

The word 'sultan' is an Arabic word that exists in Persian as well. It is a loan-word. In Persian it is basically the same as 'king', but is not really used in modern contexts. It is not used about Iranian pre-Islamic kings either.

The word 'solteh' (from the same root) means dominion, supremacy etc.

sultan - سلطان

That is the way it is spelt in Arabic and in Persian, just in case you want to copy and paste in in a dictionary.

Respectfully,
Navi

rcpj@panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) wrote or quoted:
>Since titles are placed after the name in Turkish, "Sultan Bey" would be a
>governor named "King"; whether there was such a person in real life, I've
>no idea.

I guess it might be possible for us to use some kinda title after
names in English too, but with a comma separating it.

You see this sometimes when a name is in a list or registry,
where they wanna get rid of the "Sir" for sorting purposes.

|Browne, Thomas, Sir, 1605-1682

You also find it, though not too often, in spoken speech where
they tack on a "Sir" after the name when addressing someone,
but - like I said - with a comma separating it, "Brown, sir":

|You, sir, Mr. Vanbeest Brown, sir, you hear the question,
|sir, which the gentleman asks you?
"Guy Mannering" - Sir Walter Scott.

(In English, one use of the comma is to make it clear that a
part of the speech is not in its usual place. So, "if" clauses
normally come after the main clause, but if they are placed
at the beginning, you gotta separate 'em with a comma.)

Pierre Jelenc:
> Since titles are placed after the name in Turkish, "Sultan Bey" would be a
> governor named "King"; whether there was such a person in real life, I've
> no idea.

Well, New Mexico and New Hampshire have each had a Governor King,
and Maine has had two of them. The US would have had a President
King if his name hadn't been changed after he was adopted, and of
course Canada has had a Prime Minister King.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Oh what a tangled web we weave,
msb@vex.net | a literate geekiness to achieve." --Steve Summit

My text in this article is in the public domain.