I haven't been playing for awhile because I don't have a numpad. However, I've come up with this - I'm going to remap qweadzxc and use them to move and s will probably be search. Any better ideas?

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 9:33:03 PM UTC-7, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> I haven't been playing for awhile because I don't have a numpad.
> However, I've come up with this - I'm going to remap qweadzxc and
> use them to move and s will probably be search. Any better ideas?

How about "learn to use 'hjkl' and 'yubn'"? The HJKL part is
pretty straightforward and YUBN are positioned diagonally
around H (approximately, assuming ordinary qwerty keyboard).
It won't take very long to not need that as a visual reminder
anymore.

To remap those commands to new keys, you don't just need
to assign movement commands to them (multiple instances
of each, for shift move, control move, and possibly meta/alt
move), you'll need to give the commands which use them now
new keystrokes (or always use their longer #abc form which
would be pretty tedious). You're already faced with that for
#loot and #jump, also the need to omit 'n' when entering a
count prefix, but the remap you envision would magnify such
changes by quite a bit.

I assume you're planning on running to-be-3.7. 3.6.x allows
changing keys for general commands but not for movement
commands (aside from a 'number_pad' setting that swaps
y/Y/^Y/M-y/M-Y and z/Z/^Z/M-z/M-Z--instead of switching
to digits for movement--to try to support qwertz keyboards).
That predated the BINDINGS config-file directive and has been
left it place even though the swap could be accomplished
with key bindings now.

Em 20/05/2023 01:33, Yosemite Sam escreveu:
> I haven't been playing for awhile because I don't have a numpad. However, I've come up with this - I'm going to remap qweadzxc and use them to move and s will probably be search. Any better ideas?

Just get used to yuhjklbn keys. I was without a numpad for a long time
and eventually you get the hang of doing things without it.

nabru
--
nabru | This PIZZA symbolizes
| MY COMPLETE EMOTIONAL RECOVERY!!
---------^-----------------------------------

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 9:47:07 PM UTC-4, nabru wrote:
> Em 20/05/2023 01:33, Yosemite Sam escreveu:
> > I haven't been playing for awhile because I don't have a numpad. However, I've come up with this - I'm going to remap qweadzxc and use them to move and s will probably be search. Any better ideas?
> Just get used to yuhjklbn keys. I was without a numpad for a long time
> and eventually you get the hang of doing things without it.
>
> nabru
> --
> nabru | This PIZZA symbolizes
> | MY COMPLETE EMOTIONAL RECOVERY!!
> ---------^-----------------------------------

How does one kick then? Are you limited to <CTRL> k? What if you
are on a server where one cannot use <CTRL> commands? Is it
#kick, then?

--

I have to agree entirely with Mister Rankin and Mister Nabru, it is not difficult to use the letters:
k u l n j b h y

....representing respectively the cardinal points N NE E SE S SW W NW relative to the hero, in stead of using ciphers (digits) of the number pad.

I often play Nethack with an Apple IPad tablet. Either I play off line using the INethack executable for this kind of tablets, or I play on line in the Hard Fought server, with servers in Australia, North America and Europe, the Australian one is often the less busy. I am physically located in South America.

However, in spite of the name, Apple IPad has no number pad whatsoever. It has no physical keyboard, in fact, unless connecting an external keyboard. The original keyboard is only 'virtual' or 'logical', in stead of being 'real' or 'physical', this is, the keys appear on a touch sensitive screen. The keyboard has ciphers (digits) from 0 to 9 placed along a top horizontal row, and they can be used for playing Nethack simply by enabling in the Nethack run-control configuration the use of a 'number pad' (although no separate number pad exists in my tablet), but I personally prefer to disable the imaginary 'number pad' and play using the letters that others and myself have indicated.

I do not see it as difficult. I suppose that, as with many other things in life, it is just a question of habit and of training. Please try doing it in that way, Mister Yosemite, You may feel amazed at how easy it is after some days of practice.

Receive a Confederate Salute, Sir.

Mister Ranger, as I have explained to Mister Yosemite about the lack of number pad in my Apple IPad tablet, it happens that it ALSO lacks Control key. Very limited is Apple IPad, in fact. It may be of high quality, but certainly it is very limited. Never again an Apple product for me, next time I shall 'downgrade' to a simpler device able to execute the Linux operating system that I love.

When playing Nethack, the action of kicking (a door, a box on the floor, or whatever) can be done, as You have mentioned, by preceding it with the hash symbol '#' and the whole or the unambiguous part of the word 'kick'.

That is what I do, for kicking and for many other actions without an exclusive keyboard key, when playing Nethack in my tablet. Not having Control key, I do not know of another method for performing such actions, and I have read very carefully the entire Nethack Manual and quite many pages of the Nethack Wiki, where I have also contributed texts.

Receive a Salute, Sir.

On 22.05.2023 02:20, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> Mister Ranger, as I have explained to Mister Yosemite about the lack
> of number pad in my Apple IPad tablet, it happens that it ALSO lacks
> Control key. [...]

I seem to recall that the usual control sequences that you find and
use on e.g. Linux systems (e.g. "Ctrl-C") are done using the 'Apple'
key ("Apple-C"). - Doesn't that 'Apple' key work with Nethack?

Janis

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 12:11:06 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 22.05.2023 02:20, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> > Mister Ranger, as I have explained to Mister Yosemite about the lack
> > of number pad in my Apple IPad tablet, it happens that it ALSO lacks
> > Control key. [...]
>
> I seem to recall that the usual control sequences that you find and
> use on e.g. Linux systems (e.g. "Ctrl-C") are done using the 'Apple'
> key ("Apple-C"). - Doesn't that 'Apple' key work with Nethack?
>
> Janis

The way I remember it is "To have CTRL is to have COMMAND." And
"To have ALTernatives is to have OPTIONs." SHIFT is SHIFT.

Is the 'Apple' key COMMAND?

--

On 22.05.2023 08:07, RecRanger wrote:
> On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 12:11:06 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 22.05.2023 02:20, CSS Dixieland wrote:
>>> Mister Ranger, as I have explained to Mister Yosemite about the lack
>>> of number pad in my Apple IPad tablet, it happens that it ALSO lacks
>>> Control key. [...]
>>
>> I seem to recall that the usual control sequences that you find and
>> use on e.g. Linux systems (e.g. "Ctrl-C") are done using the 'Apple'
>> key ("Apple-C"). - Doesn't that 'Apple' key work with Nethack?
>
> The way I remember it is "To have CTRL is to have COMMAND." And
> "To have ALTernatives is to have OPTIONs." SHIFT is SHIFT.
>
> Is the 'Apple' key COMMAND?

I suppose so; on the Apple systems I saw here previously there was no
text on that key but (as far as I recall) an apple depicted. - I just
had a look at a Mac Book we have here and there's all keys, Ctrl, Alt,
and Cmd, available. - But to initiate the Ctrl-Commands that we know
from other Unix systems - despite there IS a Ctrl key - you had to use
the 'Cmd' ("apple") key to trigger the Unix Ctrl-keys functionality.

Janis

On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 4:50:21 PM UTC-7, RecRanger wrote:
> How does one kick then? Are you limited to <CTRL> k?

^K is a movement command, to 'rush' in direction k (North).
The kick command is ^D. I think ^D for kicking was originally
chosen because Door was/is the most likely target of a kick.
(NetHack's Guidebook might even say as much.)

> What if you are on a server where one cannot use <CTRL> commands?

I don't see the connection. Servers where nethack runs accept
control characters. If your device won't send such, that is a
problem at your end.

> Is it #kick, then?

That will work in to-be-3.7 and possibly 3.6.x. It wouldn't work
in older versions. The extended form was only available for
commands that weren't preassigned to normal keys. Note
that ctrl+character is a normal key; alt+character isn't.

Mister Papanagnou and Mister Ranger are correct in regard to Apple Macintosh, but unfortunately, not in regard to Apple IPad. As it has been informed, this is a tablet with a virtual keyboard on a touch sensitive screen, and there is no Apple Command key on it. A tablet is a kind of small, flat micro computer, which has every component inside a cabinet of about the surface of a typical book, but much thinner than a book (or as thin as a book of few pages).

It is different from a portable micro computer (of the kinds known as lap top, note book and net book), different from a stationary micro computer (known as desk top), and also different from a mobile telephone or similar tiny devices.

Mister Rankin is also correct that the command for kicking using a control key is ^D (meaning 'door', although not only a door can be kicked), and that the said command can also be executed in Nethack versions 3.6.x to Nethack version 3.7.0 via #kick, but not in previous versions such as Nethack 3.4..3, in which the Alterne (or Alternative) key is used in stead. Or perhaps, depending on the operating system and platform, a double activation of the Escape key. Apple IPad has no such keys, therefore playing Nethack version 3.4.3 or older would be necessarily limited, if at all possible.

Nethack version 3.7.0, as Mister Rankin also indicates, has not been officially released yet by the Dev Team, but it is available for testing at the Hard Fought server. In my personal view version 3.7.0 is a good one, but as with versions 3.6.x it is lamentable when reaching a Mine Town that has been conquered by Orcs and has iron bars in all the gates. Such a possibility did not exist in Nethack version 3.4.3 or older, it was introduced as new in Nethack version 3.6.0.

Those gates can be broken using potions of acid, then the Orcs can be fought. Shop keepers, guards and priest are not present (assumedly they have been eliminated by the Orcs, or they have fled), therefore shops and temple are empty. Please, be kind to warn me if I may be trespassing on the acceptable limits of spoilers, I know Nethack in detail (as other Distinguished Members of this News Group also know it), I love the game, and I like talking of it.

Receive, Gentlemen, a Confederate Salute.

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 4:44:03 AM UTC-4, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> Mister Papanagnou and Mister Ranger are correct in regard to Apple Macintosh, but unfortunately, not in regard to Apple IPad. As it has been informed, this is a tablet with a virtual keyboard on a touch sensitive screen, and there is no Apple Command key on it. A tablet is a kind of small, flat micro computer, which has every component inside a cabinet of about the surface of a typical book, but much thinner than a book (or as thin as a book of few pages).
>
> It is different from a portable micro computer (of the kinds known as lap top, note book and net book), different from a stationary micro computer (known as desk top), and also different from a mobile telephone or similar tiny devices.
>
> Mister Rankin is also correct that the command for kicking using a control key is ^D (meaning 'door', although not only a door can be kicked), and that the said command can also be executed in Nethack versions 3.6.x to Nethack version 3.7.0 via #kick, but not in previous versions such as Nethack 3..4.3, in which the Alterne (or Alternative) key is used in stead. Or perhaps, depending on the operating system and platform, a double activation of the Escape key. Apple IPad has no such keys, therefore playing Nethack version 3.4.3 or older would be necessarily limited, if at all possible.
>
> Nethack version 3.7.0, as Mister Rankin also indicates, has not been officially released yet by the Dev Team, but it is available for testing at the Hard Fought server. In my personal view version 3.7.0 is a good one, but as with versions 3.6.x it is lamentable when reaching a Mine Town that has been conquered by Orcs and has iron bars in all the gates. Such a possibility did not exist in Nethack version 3.4.3 or older, it was introduced as new in Nethack version 3.6.0.
>
> Those gates can be broken using potions of acid, then the Orcs can be fought. Shop keepers, guards and priest are not present (assumedly they have been eliminated by the Orcs, or they have fled), therefore shops and temple are empty. Please, be kind to warn me if I may be trespassing on the acceptable limits of spoilers, I know Nethack in detail (as other Distinguished Members of this News Group also know it), I love the game, and I like talking of it.
>
> Receive, Gentlemen, a Confederate Salute.

I know of the iPad. Was not sure what the keyboard
layout was.

Point being to all of this, for me, was that 'k' is the kick
command. I always use 'k'. Just wanted to know how to
kick if using hjklyubn.

--

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 3:44:03 AM UTC-5, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> Mister Papanagnou and Mister Ranger are correct in regard to Apple Macintosh, but unfortunately, not in regard to Apple IPad. As it has been informed, this is a tablet with a virtual keyboard on a touch sensitive screen, and there is no Apple Command key on it. A tablet is a kind of small, flat micro computer, which has every component inside a cabinet of about the surface of a typical book, but much thinner than a book (or as thin as a book of few pages).
>
> It is different from a portable micro computer (of the kinds known as lap top, note book and net book), different from a stationary micro computer (known as desk top), and also different from a mobile telephone or similar tiny devices.
>
> Mister Rankin is also correct that the command for kicking using a control key is ^D (meaning 'door', although not only a door can be kicked), and that the said command can also be executed in Nethack versions 3.6.x to Nethack version 3.7.0 via #kick, but not in previous versions such as Nethack 3..4.3, in which the Alterne (or Alternative) key is used in stead. Or perhaps, depending on the operating system and platform, a double activation of the Escape key. Apple IPad has no such keys, therefore playing Nethack version 3.4.3 or older would be necessarily limited, if at all possible.
>
> Nethack version 3.7.0, as Mister Rankin also indicates, has not been officially released yet by the Dev Team, but it is available for testing at the Hard Fought server. In my personal view version 3.7.0 is a good one, but as with versions 3.6.x it is lamentable when reaching a Mine Town that has been conquered by Orcs and has iron bars in all the gates. Such a possibility did not exist in Nethack version 3.4.3 or older, it was introduced as new in Nethack version 3.6.0.
>
> Those gates can be broken using potions of acid, then the Orcs can be fought. Shop keepers, guards and priest are not present (assumedly they have been eliminated by the Orcs, or they have fled), therefore shops and temple are empty. Please, be kind to warn me if I may be trespassing on the acceptable limits of spoilers, I know Nethack in detail (as other Distinguished Members of this News Group also know it), I love the game, and I like talking of it.
>
> Receive, Gentlemen, a Confederate Salute.

The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

On Wednesday 24 May 2023 at 13:56:55 UTC, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.

However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:40:42 PM UTC-4, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> On Wednesday 24 May 2023 at 13:56:55 UTC, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> > The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.
> Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
>
> However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.

Have you tried applying the pick to not-the-iron-bars specifically? Digging into Orc Town is one of the easiest ways to enter, as opposed to what's apparently been tried - I'm not sure where fire became applicable unless there was a recent commit that lets us burn down solid rock.

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 1:02:02 AM UTC-4, Kid Umby wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:40:42 PM UTC-4, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> > On Wednesday 24 May 2023 at 13:56:55 UTC, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> > > The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.
> > Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
> >
> > However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.
> Have you tried applying the pick to not-the-iron-bars specifically? Digging into Orc Town is one of the easiest ways to enter, as opposed to what's apparently been tried - I'm not sure where fire became applicable unless there was a recent commit that lets us burn down solid rock.

Also, force bolt or striking works on some, but not all, bars. Not sure about Orc
Town's.

--

On Thursday 25 May 2023 at 05:02:02 UTC, Kid Umby wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:40:42 PM UTC-4, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> > On Wednesday 24 May 2023 at 13:56:55 UTC, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> > > The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.
> > Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
> >
> > However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.
> Have you tried applying the pick to not-the-iron-bars specifically? Digging into Orc Town is one of the easiest ways to enter, as opposed to what's apparently been tried - I'm not sure where fire became applicable unless there was a recent commit that lets us burn down solid rock.

No, Mister Umby, I have not tried digging. Mine Town is normally diggable, and I suppose that the Orc presence have not made it undiggable. Certainly a pick, a mattock, a wand of digging or another similar resource should be capable of making a hole. Not on the floor, because that would only transport me to a lower level of the Mines, but on the wall.

Your idea is EXCELLENT, Sir. Next time, whether I find Mine Town occupied by the fastidious Orcs or I find the normal Mine Town, I shall experiment with digging if I have some resource for doing it, or I shall return once I find a viable resource, unless I happen to be located in other parts of the dungeon far from the Mines. Thanks for the idea, Sir !

On Friday 26 May 2023 at 01:53:03 UTC, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> On Thursday 25 May 2023 at 05:02:02 UTC, Kid Umby wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:40:42 PM UTC-4, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 24 May 2023 at 13:56:55 UTC, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> > > > The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.
> > > Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
> > >
> > > However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.
> > Have you tried applying the pick to not-the-iron-bars specifically? Digging into Orc Town is one of the easiest ways to enter, as opposed to what's apparently been tried - I'm not sure where fire became applicable unless there was a recent commit that lets us burn down solid rock.
> No, Mister Umby, I have not tried digging. Mine Town is normally diggable, and I suppose that the Orc presence have not made it undiggable. Certainly a pick, a mattock, a wand of digging or another similar resource should be capable of making a hole. Not on the floor, because that would only transport me to a lower level of the Mines, but on the wall.
>
> Your idea is EXCELLENT, Sir. Next time, whether I find Mine Town occupied by the fastidious Orcs or I find the normal Mine Town, I shall experiment with digging if I have some resource for doing it, or I shall return once I find a viable resource, unless I happen to be located in other parts of the dungeon far from the Mines. Thanks for the idea, Sir !

Wand of force bolt or wand of strike... Thanks, Mister Ranger, that is also an idea to be experimented. I am not sure of the results, because the iron bars protecting the Orcs in occupied Mine Town may not have locks (otherwise a key, a pick lock tool, or even a credit card, might open the iron bars), and because the iron bars may be resistant to strikes, but it is certainly worth trying every available item that might even remotely be capable of passing the iron bars and fighting the damned Orcs that occupy Mine Town. I find this possibility of a Mine Town occupied by Orcs as a VERY UNHAPPY change in Nethack versions 3.6.x and 3.7.x, which did not exist in Nethack version 3.4.3 or in any previous versions. Other players may like the challenge posed by the change, but honestly, I do not like it at all. Nonetheless, I entirely recognise that the game has certainly improved in various other aspects (it would be long to list them), and it continues being, in my view, one of the two most interesting games that I know. For me, the only other game is Chess.

On 26.05.2023 04:13, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> [...] Nonetheless, I entirely recognise that the game has
> certainly improved in various other aspects (it would be long to list
> them), and it continues being, in my view, one of the two most
> interesting games that I know. For me, the only other game is Chess.

Just curious; do you mean a computer based game of Chess or playing
against a human opponent on a physical board?

For board game enthusiast there's probably a couple more worthwhile
games. One I like a lot is Pandemic, a very difficult collaborative
game, of course playable with a larger player group than Chess or
Nethack, etc.

Janis, digressing

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 10:13:13 PM UTC-4, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> On Friday 26 May 2023 at 01:53:03 UTC, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> > On Thursday 25 May 2023 at 05:02:02 UTC, Kid Umby wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:40:42 PM UTC-4, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday 24 May 2023 at 13:56:55 UTC, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> > > > > The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.
> > > > Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
> > > >
> > > > However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.
> > > Have you tried applying the pick to not-the-iron-bars specifically? Digging into Orc Town is one of the easiest ways to enter, as opposed to what's apparently been tried - I'm not sure where fire became applicable unless there was a recent commit that lets us burn down solid rock.
> > No, Mister Umby, I have not tried digging. Mine Town is normally diggable, and I suppose that the Orc presence have not made it undiggable. Certainly a pick, a mattock, a wand of digging or another similar resource should be capable of making a hole. Not on the floor, because that would only transport me to a lower level of the Mines, but on the wall.
> >
> > Your idea is EXCELLENT, Sir. Next time, whether I find Mine Town occupied by the fastidious Orcs or I find the normal Mine Town, I shall experiment with digging if I have some resource for doing it, or I shall return once I find a viable resource, unless I happen to be located in other parts of the dungeon far from the Mines. Thanks for the idea, Sir !
> Wand of force bolt or wand of strike... Thanks, Mister Ranger, that is also an idea to be experimented. I am not sure of the results, because the iron bars protecting the Orcs in occupied Mine Town may not have locks (otherwise a key, a pick lock tool, or even a credit card, might open the iron bars), and because the iron bars may be resistant to strikes, but it is certainly worth trying every available item that might even remotely be capable of passing the iron bars and fighting the damned Orcs that occupy Mine Town.. I find this possibility of a Mine Town occupied by Orcs as a VERY UNHAPPY change in Nethack versions 3.6.x and 3.7.x, which did not exist in Nethack version 3.4.3 or in any previous versions. Other players may like the challenge posed by the change, but honestly, I do not like it at all. Nonetheless, I entirely recognise that the game has certainly improved in various other aspects (it would be long to list them), and it continues being, in my view, one of the two most interesting games that I know. For me, the only other game is Chess.

I have intense dislike of Orc Town. It sounds interesting, but is
bad for so, so many reasons. What is the worst how it ruins
the protection racket, and more specifically pacifists. You play
for an hour or two to carefully get down to Minetown with a
pacifist and discover orcs. #quit. Not fun.

--

On 26.05.2023 09:57, RecRanger wrote:
>
> I have intense dislike of Orc Town. It sounds interesting, but is
> bad for so, so many reasons. What is the worst how it ruins
> the protection racket, and more specifically pacifists. You play
> for an hour or two to carefully get down to Minetown with a
> pacifist and discover orcs. #quit. Not fun.

I very well understand the frustration, and specifically with the
Protection Racket. I presume two aspects for introduction of that
dungeon level variant; variance (a chance for non-reliability of
certain features) and a style (atmosphere) issue.

Personally I don't do the PR, so I am less concerned in this case.
But not having a single priest (where you can donate) in the whole
dungeon is also bad.

There's a couple things that are quite essential in the roguelikes;
one other thing is having a container for your items. There are
games where I find a lot of bags (even a lot of bags of holding),
but in other games not a single sack even until mid-game. Then not
even having the 50% Sokoban chance but a further reduction to 25%
(marker/bag) only is also frustrating. At least at some point you
might get a chance of manufacturing one (e.g. with polymorph) or
to get a better container (e.g. by upgrading, in some variants).

But lacking temples (or, to a lesser degree, an altar to get some
artifact) or other dungeon features is something that the game must
provide (or compensate), you cannot work around it.

Some games cat get quite arduous and stress the fun factor. That's
part of the game-variant design to sensibly balance availability
of options and necessities.

Janis

On Friday 26 May 2023 at 10:54:14 UTC, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 26.05.2023 09:57, RecRanger wrote:
> >
> > I have intense dislike of Orc Town. It sounds interesting, but is
> > bad for so, so many reasons. What is the worst how it ruins
> > the protection racket, and more specifically pacifists. You play
> > for an hour or two to carefully get down to Minetown with a
> > pacifist and discover orcs. #quit. Not fun.
> I very well understand the frustration, and specifically with the
> Protection Racket. I presume two aspects for introduction of that
> dungeon level variant; variance (a chance for non-reliability of
> certain features) and a style (atmosphere) issue.
>
> Personally I don't do the PR, so I am less concerned in this case.
> But not having a single priest (where you can donate) in the whole
> dungeon is also bad.
>
> There's a couple things that are quite essential in the roguelikes;
> one other thing is having a container for your items. There are
> games where I find a lot of bags (even a lot of bags of holding),
> but in other games not a single sack even until mid-game. Then not
> even having the 50% Sokoban chance but a further reduction to 25%
> (marker/bag) only is also frustrating. At least at some point you
> might get a chance of manufacturing one (e.g. with polymorph) or
> to get a better container (e.g. by upgrading, in some variants).
>
> But lacking temples (or, to a lesser degree, an altar to get some
> artifact) or other dungeon features is something that the game must
> provide (or compensate), you cannot work around it.
>
> Some games cat get quite arduous and stress the fun factor. That's
> part of the game-variant design to sensibly balance availability
> of options and necessities.
>
> Janis

I have never played Pandemic, Mister Papanagnou. That game can accommodate up to four players and it may be interesting, but it has been released recently, in 2008, and that is too new for me to have studied its tactics in detail.

Regarding Chess, when I lived in Scandinavia I used to play in official tournaments, as well as in Chess clubs. There were more than forty clubs in Kjøbenhavn, the Capital of Denmark. Physical board, against human players. I obtained a rating close to 1700 Elo, which is considered that of a relatively strong club player, but below the level of Master.

In South America, however, I am more limited in my chances for playing face to face. I have participated in some local events, and in fact I am the Champion of the area where I am living, but that is not to say much because Chess is not popular here. Most people do not know even the moves of the pieces. They are aware that Chess exists, nothing else.

A minority plays Chess regularly, but very few players. There is only ONE club federated to FIDE, which gives a pretty good idea of the situation of Chess in this forgotten corner of the Planet. Therefore, I have to maintain my training by playing against remote opponents, via Internet. I do that in various Chess servers, in some more often than in others.

My name is the same as here, in all of them. If You wish to play with me, Sir, then I suggest Brain King or Little Golem.

On 26.05.2023 13:33, CSS Dixieland wrote:
>
> I have never played Pandemic, Mister Papanagnou. That game can
> accommodate up to four players and it may be interesting, but it has
> been released recently, in 2008, and that is too new for me to have
> studied its tactics in detail.

It's actually older, I think the first release came out in the 1990's;
there have been various releases since then, but that may depend on
the country and publisher. The (older) version that I have we play with
more than 4 players, typically 5 or 6. Newer versions have extensions,
for newer mechanics, with more complexity, and for more players.

It's the difficulty and challenge that makes it interesting. Actually
quite similar to Nethack or other roguelikes in that respect; it's not
unusual that the group just dies, unable to manage the pandemic game-
situation.

>
> [ details about chess clubs and countries snipped ]
>
> My name is the same as here, in all of them. If You wish to play with
> me, Sir, then I suggest Brain King or Little Golem.

You would have no fun playing Chess with me. :-) The epoch when I last
played Chess (and only occasionally, not in a club) was 4 decades ago.
I probably can compete well with the audience you described (and even
perform better - at least I know "the moves of the pieces" ;-), but not
with 1700 Elo. - My question was just out of curiosity, since computers
are ubiquitous, and I have no feeling or knowledge how folks (generally
or younger people) prefer playing chess nowadays.

Janis

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 9:50:16 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 26.05.2023 13:33, CSS Dixieland wrote:
> >
> > I have never played Pandemic, Mister Papanagnou. That game can
> > accommodate up to four players and it may be interesting, but it has
> > been released recently, in 2008, and that is too new for me to have
> > studied its tactics in detail.
> It's actually older, I think the first release came out in the 1990's;
> there have been various releases since then, but that may depend on
> the country and publisher. The (older) version that I have we play with
> more than 4 players, typically 5 or 6. Newer versions have extensions,
> for newer mechanics, with more complexity, and for more players.
>
> It's the difficulty and challenge that makes it interesting. Actually
> quite similar to Nethack or other roguelikes in that respect; it's not
> unusual that the group just dies, unable to manage the pandemic game-
> situation.
>
> >
> > [ details about chess clubs and countries snipped ]
> >
> > My name is the same as here, in all of them. If You wish to play with
> > me, Sir, then I suggest Brain King or Little Golem.
> You would have no fun playing Chess with me. :-) The epoch when I last
> played Chess (and only occasionally, not in a club) was 4 decades ago.
> I probably can compete well with the audience you described (and even
> perform better - at least I know "the moves of the pieces" ;-), but not
> with 1700 Elo. - My question was just out of curiosity, since computers
> are ubiquitous, and I have no feeling or knowledge how folks (generally
> or younger people) prefer playing chess nowadays.
>
> Janis

Oddly, chess is picking up in popularity exponentially, for some reason.
In particular, it has become a new obsession with today's youth.
One of the oldest games on Earth and it still grabs people in. Really
tells you something. What seems such a simplistic game is quite the
opposite when you begin to dissect it.

--

On 26.05.2023 20:59, RecRanger wrote:
> [ Chess board game ]
> Oddly, chess is picking up in popularity exponentially, for some reason.
> In particular, it has become a new obsession with today's youth.

Interesting. Do you know whether they prefer it as board-game or per
computer screen?

I'm not a youngster, by far not, but not long ago myself as well was
looking for a chess board (but didn't find an adequate one); I wanted
a good board with a built-in computer. Chess is a game where I want a
haptic experience, I don't like playing it on a computer display.

> One of the oldest games on Earth and it still grabs people in. Really
> tells you something. What seems such a simplistic game is quite the
> opposite when you begin to dissect it.

With respect to simplistic games, Go (the board game) is even simpler
concerning the rules and the figures, notwithstanding considered to be
extremely demanding; it had been compared to Chess in the past.

Janis