A bag of tricks that had been emptied can be used as a container
to take items. What happens if you fill that container and then
recharge the bag? - Would the items vanish, or would they be
inaccessible until the bag's charges are gone, or would it spill
the items instead of creating monsters, or can the player choose
what shall happen?

Janis

On Thursday 8 June 2023 at 01:37:41 UTC, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> A bag of tricks that had been emptied can be used as a container
> to take items. What happens if you fill that container and then
> recharge the bag? - Would the items vanish, or would they be
> inaccessible until the bag's charges are gone, or would it spill
> the items instead of creating monsters, or can the player choose
> what shall happen?
>
> Janis

According to the available documentation, Sir, an EMPTY bag of tricks can be used as a container in Unnethack, Dynahack and Slashthem. Possibly also in Hack'em, as this derivative game is related. An empty bag of tricks used as a container MUST NOT be recharged, or it will destroy all items inside. They will not become temporarily inaccessible, nor will they return to the hero by applying or tipping the bag of tricks. Applying a charged bag of tricks spits its tricks one by one, tipping (inclining) the bag spits all tricks at once. Various tricks, but with more than a 75% probability of each trick being a monster, which may be a peaceful creature but more often it is a hostile or even a dangerous one.

In no case can the player choose what shall happen. A bag of tricks, whether charged or empty, can be stashed inside a box or similar big container. However, portable containers such as sacks or bags of holding can NOT carry items like a bag of tricks or a wand of cancellation. Attempting to do so will provoke the destruction of all items inside the sack or bag of holding in most derivatives of the game (in Nethack version 3.7.0 most items will be scattered, a few of them probably will be destroyed). Therefore a bag of tricks can be used, in those derivatives of the game, either as bag of tricks (its original function) or, when empty of tricks, as portable container, but never both functions together.

A cursed and empty bag of tricks used as a portable container, as with a cursed sack or bag of holding, will make all items inside the bag disappear. In Gnollhack temple priests can remove curses, expecting a donation to the temple.

If You, Sir, be thinking of expending the tricks quickly for using the bag of tricks as a bag of holding... think twice. You do not know what horrors may come from the bag. It may be a lovely kitten... or it may be a nightmare abomination. You may have superior weapons, excellent armour, healing capabilities (by potions, spells, or other resources), fast escape available (such as teleportation), or whatever, but You never know. And if You have pets at Your side, they will also be put at risk. I respectfully suggest that if You have too many items, You stash some in secure big containers in appropriate places, as much as reasonably possible, in stead of playing with unknown tricks that may kill Your hero.

At least that is how I play, on the safe side. I carry a lockable box to a small room with a lockable door, and I put inside the box what I cannot carry with me, but which may be useful later in the game. In Gnollhack I protect the hiding place with the enchantment of Gilthoniel. Then I continue my adventure, remembering the places where I hide my valuables. Other players may have other methods. For me Nethack is a game of serious thinking and slow playing, as it is Chess.

On Thu, 8 Jun 2023 14:54:12 -0700 (PDT), CSS Dixieland wrote:

> According to the available documentation, Sir, an EMPTY bag of tricks can
> be used as a container in Unnethack, Dynahack and Slashthem. Possibly
> also in Hack'em, as this derivative game is related. An empty bag of
> tricks used as a container MUST NOT be recharged, or it will destroy all
> items inside. They will not become temporarily inaccessible, nor will
> they return to the hero by applying or tipping the bag of tricks.

If this is the case, a nice extension would be, to (randomly) equip the
newly created monsters with the content of the bag. Even a simple nymph
can become quiet a nuisance when wearing an AoLS (with several to spare),
carrying a bunch of fully charged /oD and maybe also has some means of
reflection... ;-)

BeAr
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
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On Friday 9 June 2023 at 04:25:27 UTC, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:

> ...a nice extension would be to (randomly) equip the newly created monsters
> with the content of the bag. Even a simple nymph can become quiet a nuisance
> when wearing an AoLS (with several to spare), carrying a bunch of fully charged
> /oD and maybe also has some means of reflection...

Yes, Mister Ederson, that idea sounds highly curious, to say the least. Equipping every monster in the bag with one object given at random to him from the same bag. If having sufficient objects for every monster and monsters for every object, though generation of monsters is not the only trick that a bag of tricks can do. The object may help the monster, or may not help him at all. Monsters with hands and with some intelligence can probably use various kinds of objects. Other monsters may just eat, rust, rot or spoil the object, or the object may simply be useless to them.

The question formulated by Mister Janis Papanagnou referred to the possibility of using a bag of tricks as ALSO a bag of holding, simultaneously. The answer was given in the negative: it is not possible. The proposal of giving the objects in the bag to the monsters, one by one until either objects or monsters be finished, would not be difficult to programme, but I doubt of its usefulness in enhancing the game, other than maybe as a temporarily curious novelty.

In Gnollhack at the standard level of difficulty the player is GUARANTEED a bag of holding (an 'oriental silk sack'), an aligned altar, a box for stashing what he cannot carry with him, various documents explaining how to play the game, hermits and elves who offer useful advice, scrolls of identification, and some other helps. Gnollhack is significantly easier than Nethack in the early game... but serious difficulties will come later. The middle game is as difficult as in Nethack, and the end game is CRIMINAL. Even so, highly experienced players have ascended the hero in Gnollhack, already once in the Junethack 2023 competition, therefore Gnollhack is perfectly playable. And for me, it is exciting.

On Thursday, 8 June 2023 at 03:37:41 UTC+2, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> A bag of tricks that had been emptied can be used as a container
> to take items. What happens if you fill that container and then
> recharge the bag? - Would the items vanish, or would they be
> inaccessible until the bag's charges are gone, or would it spill
> the items instead of creating monsters, or can the player choose
> what shall happen?
>
> Janis

The Hack'EM wiki page (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Hack%27EM) has the answer:
"If a player charges a depleted Bag of Tricks/Rats with contents - it will now explode and scatter the contents instead of deleting them."

On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 10:26:35 AM UTC+2, Mobi Leuser wrote:
> On Thursday, 8 June 2023 at 03:37:41 UTC+2, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> > A bag of tricks that had been emptied can be used as a container
> > to take items. What happens if you fill that container and then
> > recharge the bag? - Would the items vanish, or would they be
> > inaccessible until the bag's charges are gone, or would it spill
> > the items instead of creating monsters, or can the player choose
> > what shall happen?
> >
> > Janis
> The Hack'EM wiki page (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Hack%27EM) has the answer:
> "If a player charges a depleted Bag of Tricks/Rats with contents - it will now explode and scatter the contents instead of deleting them."

Mobileuser speaks the truth, we have updated the behavior to be a little more lenient with regards to storing and charging.