I wonder whether _canceling_ is considered an *extraordinary* alignment
abuse in EvilHack?

My current record of "abusive actions":
- (deliberately) ate a floating eye as a Monk => slightly abused
- canceled a peaceful by accident, killed it => (moderately/seriously)?
- canceled a peaceful by accident, killed it => severely abused

With these _three_ abuses I got in the abuse-alignment range of 30..49,
*irreversibly*. (Doesn't make it better if canceling and killing the
hostile monster are technically considered as two abuses.) - Very very
badly balanced, IMO.

Or is it also penalized if canceling a hostile monster? - In that case
(although I wouldn't understand the rationale behind such a design) my
Monk would have 2 or 3 more "dirty deeds" done.

Practically that means that my Monk can now kill and eat what he likes,
it cannot really get much worse for practical purposes?

Janis

Cancelling a hostile monster is fine and doesn't count as abusing your alignment.

On 11.04.2023 12:17, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> [...]
>
> With these _three_ abuses I got in the abuse-alignment range of 30..49,
> *irreversibly*. [...]
>
> Practically that means that my Monk can now kill and eat what he likes,
> it cannot really get much worse for practical purposes?

I have noticed in the source code that killing the quest leader will
have [persistent] negative effects on _luck_. Since I anyway won't
get the quest artifact with that massive "abuse record", and killing
the quest leader would have yet more irreversible disadvantages
there's no point in fighting the overly tough quest nemesis, right?

Out of interest; can Master Kaen be defeated (as in Nethack/Slashem)
using a boulder fort and missiles or is that quest made even harder
in EvilHack? (If so, what would the preferred tactics be? I suppose
Elbereth and a scroll of scare monster won't reliably work for all
the E and X that will pass a boulder fort, or is at least the scroll
a safe place? - With the E's new engulfing attack it anyway appears
to be a quite unattractive place even without Master Kaen.)

Janis

> I have noticed in the source code that killing the quest leader will
> have [persistent] negative effects on _luck_. Since I anyway won't
> get the quest artifact with that massive "abuse record", and killing
> the quest leader would have yet more irreversible disadvantages
> there's no point in fighting the overly tough quest nemesis, right?

You'll need to either return the quest artifact to the quest leader or kill the quest leader, otherwise the Bell of Opening won't work for the invocation.
I don't understand what you mean by "no point in fighting the overly tough quest nemesis". You still need the Bell of Opening.

> Out of interest; can Master Kaen be defeated (as in Nethack/Slashem)
> using a boulder fort and missiles or is that quest made even harder
> in EvilHack? (If so, what would the preferred tactics be? I suppose
> Elbereth and a scroll of scare monster won't reliably work for all
> the E and X that will pass a boulder fort, or is at least the scroll
> a safe place? - With the E's new engulfing attack it anyway appears
> to be a quite unattractive place even without Master Kaen.)

In Evilhack, scare tactics like the E-word or scare monster or a tooled horn don't work on mindless monsters.
I think boulder fort + magic missile can work against Kaen, but I'm not completely sure. Hopefully one of the monk specialists can say more.
Personally I've always waited until my AC and HP were good enough to just straight up melee him.

On 14.04.2023 12:08, Mobi Leuser wrote:
>
> You'll need to either return the quest artifact to the quest leader
> or kill the quest leader, otherwise the Bell of Opening won't work
> for the invocation. I don't understand what you mean by "no point in
> fighting the overly tough quest nemesis". You still need the Bell of
> Opening.

Ah, right. Sorry for not having explained the background thought.
Given the experience thus far about new features of unexpected
fatal deaths I am quite sure right now already that I won't finish
that game; either by such an unexpected death event or by annoyance
that I cannot fix any effectively essential property. So I probably
just explore that game a bit more - maybe trying the Ice level -
and then quit and try out another variant.

>> [ Master Kaen ]
>
> In Evilhack, scare tactics like the E-word or scare monster or a
> tooled horn don't work on mindless monsters. I think boulder fort +
> magic missile can work against Kaen, but I'm not completely sure.

I usually use physical missiles (like darts) against him. Magic
missile (from wands) had never been very effective and the supply
of wands too short to finish him (or other tougher monsters), IME.

> Hopefully one of the monk specialists can say more. Personally I've
> always waited until my AC and HP were good enough to just straight up
> melee him.

It's now been many many years that I meleed him. Usually I am not
waiting in my games until I am buffed up to hilarious HP/AC amounts
so it was always quite dangerous, and he's generally considered a
quite dangerous foe. The boulder fort provides a means of handling
the task without recklessly challenging my fate.

What I now fear in this variant is that he (or some other monster)
zaps striking and opens the boulder fort that way.

Janis

> Ah, right. Sorry for not having explained the background thought.
> Given the experience thus far about new features of unexpected
> fatal deaths I am quite sure right now already that I won't finish
> that game; either by such an unexpected death event or by annoyance
> that I cannot fix any effectively essential property. So I probably
> just explore that game a bit more - maybe trying the Ice level -
> and then quit and try out another variant.

Ah, shame, but hey, if you're not enjoying it...
I have played a lot of evilhack, but currently I'm mainly playing a new variant called Hack'EM which is an interesting mix of Slash'EM, Evilhack and Splicehack
(https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Hack%27EM)
>
> What I now fear in this variant is that he (or some other monster)
> zaps striking and opens the boulder fort that way.

You guessed right, that is something that can happen!

On 14.04.2023 13:30, Mobi Leuser wrote:
>
> Ah, shame, but hey, if you're not enjoying it...

Exploration of a new variant is fine. And curiosity is what kept me
playing. But, frankly, there's only a few (new) things I like, but
a lot that I very much dislike. So it will stay an episode for me.

> I have played a lot
> of evilhack, but currently I'm mainly playing a new variant called
> Hack'EM which is an interesting mix of Slash'EM, Evilhack and
> Splicehack (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Hack%27EM)

I don't know Splicehack. And I have to see how much EvilHack is in
it. ;-) But I will certainly give it a try. - Thanks for the tip!
(If you like to share some highlights of that Hack'EM variant feel
free to hijack this sub-thread. :-)

On the Hardfought servers I see that it has a rather low version
number, and there are variants that existed longer - assuming the
version number is meaningful -, and that are [maybe] more mature.
Are there any experiences with those variants, Gnoll, xNH, UnNH[*]?

Janis

[*] I played UnNethack in an early release and I had to abandon a
game where I reached the Sanctum, but couldn't finish it after the
release change, IIRC. But I don't know its evolution/current state.

On 14.04.2023 14:07, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 14.04.2023 13:30, Mobi Leuser wrote:
>> Splicehack (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Hack%27EM)
>
> (If you like to share some highlights of that Hack'EM variant feel
> free to hijack this sub-thread. :-)

I should have opened your link before replying; there's a lot of
information there to study. (But if you have some highlights to
emphasize I'd still be interested in a view from your personal
perspective.)

Janis

>> On 14.04.2023 13:30, Mobi Leuser wrote:
>>> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Hack%27EM

Interesting! - I skimmed over the first chapters; some bad (not
well designed) things in EvilHack and Slashem have been omitted
for Hack'EM (but, IMO, not everything that would have been worth
a reconsideration). - But certainly worth a closer look and a try.

Janis