Dungeon level 17 had a "shambling horror" in a room separated by lava,
so it's fine, since the monster is shown as being of danger-level "5"!
Meanwhile (on the same level!) such a shambling horror approached to
me; when he came adjacent he stole an experience level an grabbed me.
In the Wiki I read that this monster varies "from game to game", it
may be some "very weak" or some "incredibly powerful" monster. If I
understand correctly, all shambling horrors are now of this sort.
Curious how to get rid of a monster whose abilities are completely
unknown to me. The two observed properties (grab attack, level drain,
and the "difficulty level" 5) are already quite a serious threat!

Janis

On 26.04.2023 15:54, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> Dungeon level 17 had a "shambling horror" in a room separated by lava,
> so it's fine, since the monster is shown as being of danger-level "5"!
> Meanwhile (on the same level!) such a shambling horror approached to
> me; when he came adjacent he stole an experience level an grabbed me.
> In the Wiki I read that this monster varies "from game to game", it
> may be some "very weak" or some "incredibly powerful" monster. If I
> understand correctly, all shambling horrors are now of this sort.
> Curious how to get rid of a monster whose abilities are completely
> unknown to me. The two observed properties (grab attack, level drain,
> and the "difficulty level" 5) are already quite a serious threat!

Okay... - I tried it with a wielded cockatrice corpse...

"You begin bashing monsters with your cockatrice corpse."
"You miss the shambling horror."
"The shambling horror claws you! The shambling horror claws you!"
"The shambling horror grabs you! The shambling horror beheads you!"

That's it. Yet another instant death.

....all other questions I rose are moot now. - Goodbye, Evilhack.

(If someone finds my bones, there's a lot fine artifacts there.
But take care of the surroundings!)

Janis

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:15:55 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 26.04.2023 15:54, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> > Dungeon level 17 had a "shambling horror" in a room separated by lava,
> > so it's fine, since the monster is shown as being of danger-level "5"!
> > Meanwhile (on the same level!) such a shambling horror approached to
> > me; when he came adjacent he stole an experience level an grabbed me.
> > In the Wiki I read that this monster varies "from game to game", it
> > may be some "very weak" or some "incredibly powerful" monster. If I
> > understand correctly, all shambling horrors are now of this sort.
> > Curious how to get rid of a monster whose abilities are completely
> > unknown to me. The two observed properties (grab attack, level drain,
> > and the "difficulty level" 5) are already quite a serious threat!
> Okay... - I tried it with a wielded cockatrice corpse...
>
> "You begin bashing monsters with your cockatrice corpse."
> "You miss the shambling horror."
> "The shambling horror claws you! The shambling horror claws you!"
> "The shambling horror grabs you! The shambling horror beheads you!"
>
> That's it. Yet another instant death.
>
> ...all other questions I rose are moot now. - Goodbye, Evilhack.
>
> (If someone finds my bones, there's a lot fine artifacts there.
> But take care of the surroundings!)
>
> Janis

Far as the horrors, it's somewhat trial and error - a bit cheeks, granted, but you usually have a lot of attack options by the time you encounter one, and a polymorphed pet can also help provide opportunities to see what works and what doesn't. Once you kill one, you can use the in-game monster lookup to see what abilities that game's horror has and prepare accordingly for future ones.

In general, EvilHack is a variant where you definitely have to adjust your own play habits going in - role-specific conducts and playstyles have significantly more impact compared to vanilla (e.g. good luck trying to wield "overpowered" weapons without the relevant weapon skills), and build diversity and alignment actually matter (and they matter A LOT). You don't have to be Hypothetical Optimal Man and there's still some room for error, but there's also A LOT LESS such room from about the midgame on, so tightening up play and effectively managing inventory still carries the day.

The #evilhack IRC channel is full of well-seasoned players that can provide pointers if you like.

On 26.04.2023 16:24, Kid Umby wrote:
>
> Far as the horrors, it's somewhat trial and error - a bit cheeks,
> granted, but you usually have a lot of attack options by the time you
> encounter one, and a polymorphed pet can also help provide
> opportunities to see what works and what doesn't.

In new games - unless spoiled - there's typically a lot of trial and
error. In Evilhack too, of course. All trial and error is of no use,
though, if it's - as with shambling horrors (and per design) - not a
constant across different games; if you cannot learn from one game
how to behave (or what to try next) in another game. - What shall I
have learned here that would have helped me in the next game? - The
only obvious thing [for me] is to completely avoid these monsters,
not even try to defeat them with super-artifacts or classical means
(like cockatrice corpses), not even to get into line of sight, since
there's ranged magical attacks in that variant that could be fatal
even from distance. Because of the arbitrariness of the properties
in conjunction with masses of possible fatal attacks I also don't
see how I could choose an _effective_ "attack option" I have. Just
before that encounter I had contact with an "invincible" player
character - I posted about it. Neither my monk nor my powerful pet
(a very fast greater pegasus with about AC:-12 and HP:365, or so)
could even place a hit. Hard to believe that my powerful pegasus
would have helped here with the shambling horror; I'd rather have
expected that he'd got killed (and it seems I did the right thing to
leave him back, given the beheading attack of the shambling beast).

> Once you kill one,
> you can use the in-game monster lookup to see what abilities that
> game's horror has and prepare accordingly for future ones.

That's not helpful here. If you have been able to kill it you don't
necessarily need any more information what stats it had (in _this_
instance of the game). You were able to kill it, you had experienced
some means that works. And in the next game you anyway start at zero
information again; you don't know what beast it is that you meet.

> [...]
>
> The #evilhack IRC channel is full of well-seasoned players that can
> provide pointers if you like.

Thanks, but I very rarely use chat channels for communication. And
in this case, as already announced some weeks ago, I will switch to
some other variant with a more reliable and deducible setup, better
balanced (hopefully), and less new instances of instant, in practice
unavoidable, deaths. (YMMV, of course.) - I was anyway surprised how
long I traveled up and down before I got into the (from my previous
observations on the game design already expected, as I posted) yet
another instant death situation; excellent artifact weapon, excellent
artifact armor, excellent pet - not a help for these instant death
situations. But don't get me wrong; instant-deaths have a history in
rogue-likes. Increasing the amount of such situations/possibilities
is not exactly what I am considering as being fun. A player should
have the option to perceive these situation (like: "the giant wields
the Vorpal Blade", or "you are slowing down" - with a sensible time
to be effective, e.g. like green slime in Vanilla), or at least be
able to learn from it (as opposed to a arbitrary variable shambling
horror). But that was just the last straw; a couple other things I
considered also annoying (as posted earlier) that certainly aren't
compensated by some (but only few) inventions that I actually liked.

Happy hacking!

Janis

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 11:43:02 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 26.04.2023 16:24, Kid Umby wrote:
> >
> Because of the arbitrariness of the properties
> in conjunction with masses of possible fatal attacks I also don't
> see how I could choose an _effective_ "attack option" I have. Just
> before that encounter I had contact with an "invincible" player
> character - I posted about it. Neither my monk nor my powerful pet
> (a very fast greater pegasus with about AC:-12 and HP:365, or so)
> could even place a hit. Hard to believe that my powerful pegasus
> would have helped here with the shambling horror; I'd rather have
> expected that he'd got killed (and it seems I did the right thing to
> leave him back, given the beheading attack of the shambling beast).

I'd looked into that - you were playing as a monk trying to hit with an artifact long sword while having the skill still restricted. No amount of Luck-boosting is gonna salvage that.

> That's not helpful here. If you have been able to kill it you don't
> necessarily need any more information what stats it had (in _this_
> instance of the game). You were able to kill it, you had experienced
> some means that works.

....and by looking up its full information, you get an idea of *exactly* how it works so you go "Oh I can use X Y Z" know what means are available to you for future encounters in that game.

> Thanks, but I very rarely use chat channels for communication. And
> in this case, as already announced some weeks ago, I will switch to
> some other variant with a more reliable and deducible setup, better
> balanced (hopefully), and less new instances of instant, in practice
> unavoidable, deaths. (YMMV, of course.)

The bones you've left have had incredibly heavy bags of holding, even after making sure they weren't cursed - there's a chance at least a handful of those deaths were more avoidable than first impressions give.

> That's not helpful here. If you have been able to kill it you don't
> necessarily need any more information what stats it had (in _this_
> instance of the game). You were able to kill it, you had experienced
> some means that works. And in the next game you anyway start at zero
> information again; you don't know what beast it is that you meet.

Janis, this is wrong. I often kill horrors from range and take unnecessarily cautious courses of action.
Then, once I know the stats, I know what I can do to strategize. For example, if you killed your horror from range, you would know it had a beheading attack; then, if you ever got into a situation where you had to melee one, you would have the relevant information to defend yourself.

I know you read the wiki, and saw that it could be incredibly dangerous; that, combined with the 5 on warning, should have been enough to encourage more passive, ranged play from you. This situation was no more "unavoidable" than dying to brain loss from a mind flayer or the touch of death from a spellcaster. And I understand if you don't like using chat channels, I can somewhat relate to that; but if you're going to ask for advice on here you might as well wait for an answer before you continue. Your monk could very well still be alive!

> Happy hacking!

Also, I saw that you have started playing Hack'EM. Are you enjoying it? I think it is the sort of thing you would like :)

> Janis

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:15:55 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 26.04.2023 15:54, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> > Dungeon level 17 had a "shambling horror" in a room separated by lava,
> > so it's fine, since the monster is shown as being of danger-level "5"!

> ...all other questions I rose are moot now. - Goodbye, Evilhack.
>
> Janis

Oops. All of my previous posts earlier today have been rendered useless!

Another unbalanced aspect of EvilHack. And interesting idea, but unbalanced..
I had an ascension-worthy character by dungeon level 16 before. I went
downstairs . . . and died. To a shambling mound that was Arch-Lich level and
then some. I made 1 move, it teleported to me and that was that.

--