Sounds strange, but in nethack I usually wish for helm of opposite alignment (also because I play 3.4.3).

Anyhoo, if you are lawful from the helm can you dip for excalibur?

I've always been scared of messing around with alignment change because of the quest considerations. But the main drawback of Chaotics is stinky artifacts, and if you could do this after getting access to the quest (so it's a non-issue) and finding ludios (so you can buy back lost protection) it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

It would be essentially a 2 for 1 wish, because you would get a key item for the endgame as well as a guaranteed artifact weapon, and one of the best.

On 09.10.2022 04:52, Chris Bowers wrote:
> Sounds strange, but in nethack I usually wish for helm of opposite
> alignment (also because I play 3.4.3).

I occasionally did that when I was arriving at Astral too wimpy for
the situation there and if the first altar was wrong. Early or mid
game it doesn't appeared to me to be a sensible choice for a wish.
And until endgame I also often find such a helm lying around.

Can't you just wish for Excalibur (instead of withing for the helm
and fiddling with fountains' and risks) if you desire it so much?
(Just mind you have enough HPs to wield it, then it's safe to use.
Also consider that not every chaotic role/race is unrestricted in
using longswords.)

>
> Anyhoo, if you are lawful from the helm can you dip for excalibur?

As far as I recall NH-343 you can.

>
> I've always been scared of messing around with alignment change
> because of the quest considerations. But the main drawback of
> Chaotics is stinky artifacts,

I think that Stormbringer is a respectable weapon, also the two
unaligned artifacts Firebrand and Frostbrand that you can get.
(Getting one of the Brands of another longssword from sacrifices
will open the longsword skill also for Excalibur in case your
race/role is restricted.)

> and if you could do this after getting
> access to the quest (so it's a non-issue) and finding ludios (so you
> can buy back lost protection) it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Is there any need to keep that helm on? - Uncurse it, remove it,
and continue with Excalibur wielded to do the quest. (I thought
that this would be possible.)

>
> It would be essentially a 2 for 1 wish, because you would get a key
> item for the endgame as well as a guaranteed artifact weapon, and one
> of the best.

Personally I wouldn't value it that high (see above). If I have
an early wish there's plenty of (IMO better) choices to increase
survivability!

Janis

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 6:21:06 AM UTC-7, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 09.10.2022 04:52, Chris Bowers wrote:
>> [...]
>> and if you could do this after getting
>> access to the quest (so it's a non-issue) and finding ludios (so you
>> can buy back lost protection) it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
>
> Is there any need to keep that helm on? - Uncurse it, remove it,
> and continue with Excalibur wielded to do the quest. (I thought
> that this would be possible.)

In 3.6.x, changing alignment causes a touch check on all
worn and wielded equipment, so having Excalibur wielded
would cause damage and possibly cause it to be dropped
or at least be unwielded.

3.4.3 didn't do that so keeping the helm on isn't necessary
for handling Excalibur in that old version.

You make good points. This wouldn't be for early game survivability really. There are too many risks associated for it to be an early game strategy as you said.
This would be at the castle when you're chaotic and you're frustrated that you can't get a good artifact weapon. Stormbringer is a great weapon, but careless play (you know me!) can often result in tradgedy (such as losing protection).

Stormbringer is a very, very strong weapon, I agree.

The point I think is that helm of opposite alignment (particularly before it's downgrading in later versions), to me is an absolute powerhouse in the astral plane. All you need to get to an altar is a decently charged wand of death and maybe two wands of teleport, the helm, and some holy water (to curse/uncurse). I think the helm is such an incredibly powerful strategy. Getting to just one altar and winning is really not that hard. If you're of neutral alignment in 3.4.3 you win by getting to ANY altar. If you're an alignment other than neutral it's a 2/3s chance you will win at the first altar.

So I always wish for helm of opposite alignment at the castle. It makes astral trivial in my opinion. Maybe as an expert you consider Astral trivial anyway Janis?

That would mean that getting Excalibur is a fun side effect of having one. Also if you're lawful and fully convert to that path, you can sacrifice for other juicy lawful artifacts right?

The situations would have to really line up in order to make converting to another alignment worth it. You would have to have already opened the way for the quest and still also not yet have a good artifact weapon. But with Chaotics it's pretty common to not have a good artifact weapon. So you could either go for crowning and stormbringer or switching alignments. In that case I'd switch over crowning. If I was neutral I wouldn't convert alignments because I can just keep sacrificing to get a good artifact weapon. But with Chaotics it can be very frustrating.

-Chris

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:21:06 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 09.10.2022 04:52, Chris Bowers wrote:
> > Sounds strange, but in nethack I usually wish for helm of opposite
> > alignment (also because I play 3.4.3).
> I occasionally did that when I was arriving at Astral too wimpy for
> the situation there and if the first altar was wrong. Early or mid
> game it doesn't appeared to me to be a sensible choice for a wish.
> And until endgame I also often find such a helm lying around.
>
> Can't you just wish for Excalibur (instead of withing for the helm
> and fiddling with fountains' and risks) if you desire it so much?
> (Just mind you have enough HPs to wield it, then it's safe to use.
> Also consider that not every chaotic role/race is unrestricted in
> using longswords.)
> >
> > Anyhoo, if you are lawful from the helm can you dip for excalibur?
> As far as I recall NH-343 you can.
> >
> > I've always been scared of messing around with alignment change
> > because of the quest considerations. But the main drawback of
> > Chaotics is stinky artifacts,
> I think that Stormbringer is a respectable weapon, also the two
> unaligned artifacts Firebrand and Frostbrand that you can get.
> (Getting one of the Brands of another longssword from sacrifices
> will open the longsword skill also for Excalibur in case your
> race/role is restricted.)
> > and if you could do this after getting
> > access to the quest (so it's a non-issue) and finding ludios (so you
> > can buy back lost protection) it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
> Is there any need to keep that helm on? - Uncurse it, remove it,
> and continue with Excalibur wielded to do the quest. (I thought
> that this would be possible.)
> >
> > It would be essentially a 2 for 1 wish, because you would get a key
> > item for the endgame as well as a guaranteed artifact weapon, and one
> > of the best.
> Personally I wouldn't value it that high (see above). If I have
> an early wish there's plenty of (IMO better) choices to increase
> survivability!
>
> Janis

On 09.10.2022 22:15, Chris Bowers wrote:
> [...] Stormbringer is a great weapon, but careless play (you know
> me!) can often result in tradgedy (such as losing protection).

That's an inherent issue with that sword, not a personal, I'd say.

>
> The point I think is that helm of opposite alignment (particularly
> before it's downgrading in later versions), to me is an absolute
> powerhouse in the astral plane. [...]

No doubt. - My point was that there's a chance to find it in the
dungeons before you reach the endgame. If not you can still use
your unused wishes when arriving at the first Astral altar - here
I am assuming that at that stage (post-Castle) you still have at
least one - I usually have quite same there. And I use my early
wishes for other things that are of much greater use before the
endgame starts.

>
> So I always wish for helm of opposite alignment at the castle. It
> makes astral trivial in my opinion. Maybe as an expert you consider
> Astral trivial anyway Janis?

Not the least; I even died a couple times there (and got belittled
for that by some). That's why I wrote that as a not fully buffed up
character I also use (or wish for) that helm at Astral. Some games
don't require alignment conversion at that stage, though, depending
on standing, setup, etc., so the (early) wish gets spent for better
things. (YMMV.)

In Slashem, BTW, I often spend endgame wishes for foo'trice corpses.
Works effectively on Priests, Angels, and nasty player characters,
so that you can concentrate on the riders. - Works also in Nethack,
but there I didn't feel the necessity to do that. - This clears the
level and makes it less dangerous, so that you can visit more than
one altar. Another approach to widely clear the level is the reverse
genocide of purple worms; tame them while confused, get them adjacent
and break a wand of teleportation (ideally with 1 charge) to send 8
of the worms to various places where they swallow all the monsters
while you go your own way. And when you reach there a lot is already
done.

>
> That would mean that getting Excalibur is a fun side effect of having
> one. Also if you're lawful and fully convert to that path, you can
> sacrifice for other juicy lawful artifacts right?

Grayswandir is a weapon I'd even prefer (in Nethack; not in Slashem).

Janis