I'm pretty sure I'm not using cancellation to its full potential,
simply because I just don't know what it's really doing:
when I cancel a monster (e.g., with magicbane), is it really bad for the
monster ? what are the effects it suffers ?

Thank you,
ID

On 09.01.2023 18:42, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> I'm pretty sure I'm not using cancellation to its full potential,
> simply because I just don't know what it's really doing:
> when I cancel a monster (e.g., with magicbane), is it really bad for the
> monster ? what are the effects it suffers ?

The Nethack Wiki[*] provides quite some information about that in
section "Cancellation of monsters".

Janis

[*] https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Cancellation

Thanks, first time I see this page ;-)
It's pretty complex and really powerful actually!

Too bad I don't have it at the moment...
Another powerful thing I've just discovered is the spell "charm
monster": I'm right now in Fort Ludios without reflection, without
conflict, no polymorph... but I have charm monster, and that's really great!
I'm really surprised that its casting cost is so low and I could get it
so early in the game...

Thank you,
ID

On 2023-01-09, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 09.01.2023 18:42, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>> I'm pretty sure I'm not using cancellation to its full potential,
>> simply because I just don't know what it's really doing:
>> when I cancel a monster (e.g., with magicbane), is it really bad for the
>> monster ? what are the effects it suffers ?
>
> The Nethack Wiki[*] provides quite some information about that in
> section "Cancellation of monsters".
>
> Janis
>
> [*] https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Cancellation
>

On 10.01.2023 12:55, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> Another powerful thing I've just discovered is the spell "charm
> monster": I'm right now in Fort Ludios without reflection, without
> conflict, no polymorph... but I have charm monster, and that's really great!

Watch out the soldiers with wands of death! (Been there, died then.)

Janis

OK, something happened I don't understand: I passed the Fort, digged
down and went up for Medusa (because no way to pass water), forgot to
put on blindfold before going up (!!) but was lucky enough not to be
stoned right away, so killed Medusa, but still no reflection nor
levitation :-(
But that's fine tho, in worst case, I'm not far from lev 17 so teleport
will do it.

so I went down to castle, and there,
a soldier zaped a wand of death at me I thought, OK, that's the end,
but it was just "no effect on you" (may be not the exact wordings, but
it was a sentence like that): I had no reflection, just magic
resistance: was it magic resistance that prevented me from YASD?
or what else?

in any case, I'm lucky despite not being very careful... ;-)

Thx
ID

On 2023-01-10, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 10.01.2023 12:55, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>> Another powerful thing I've just discovered is the spell "charm
>> monster": I'm right now in Fort Ludios without reflection, without
>> conflict, no polymorph... but I have charm monster, and that's really great!
>
> Watch out the soldiers with wands of death! (Been there, died then.)
>
> Janis
>

On 11.01.2023 21:14, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> OK, something happened I don't understand: I passed the Fort, digged
> down and went up for Medusa (because no way to pass water), forgot to
> put on blindfold before going up (!!) but was lucky enough not to be
> stoned right away, so killed Medusa, but still no reflection nor
> levitation :-(

I'm aware that you can kill her in one turn, but she has quite some
HPs. How did you manage it to kill her? - Or can we assume you took
the first turn to put on a blindfold?

> a soldier zaped a wand of death at me I thought, OK, that's the end,
> but it was just "no effect on you" (may be not the exact wordings, but
> it was a sentence like that): I had no reflection, just magic
> resistance: was it magic resistance that prevented me from YASD?

Yes.[*]

> in any case, I'm lucky despite not being very careful... ;-)

Be careful and good luck! :-)

Janis

[*] But don't make the mistake I once made (in the Valley) to assume
that MR would provide disintegration resistance, where I died in one
turn; first breath disintegrated my shield, and the wall-reflected
ray killed me. ;-)

On 2023-01-11, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 11.01.2023 21:14, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>> OK, something happened I don't understand: I passed the Fort, digged
>> down and went up for Medusa (because no way to pass water), forgot to
>> put on blindfold before going up (!!) but was lucky enough not to be
>> stoned right away, so killed Medusa, but still no reflection nor
>> levitation :-(
>
> I'm aware that you can kill her in one turn, but she has quite some
> HPs. How did you manage it to kill her? - Or can we assume you took
> the first turn to put on a blindfold?

Yep, blindfold straight away !

>> a soldier zaped a wand of death at me I thought, OK, that's the end,
>> but it was just "no effect on you" (may be not the exact wordings, but
>> it was a sentence like that): I had no reflection, just magic
>> resistance: was it magic resistance that prevented me from YASD?
>
> Yes.[*]

OK, so MR may be a savior for unattentive dungeoners...

> [*] But don't make the mistake I once made (in the Valley) to assume
> that MR would provide disintegration resistance, where I died in one
> turn; first breath disintegrated my shield, and the wall-reflected
> ray killed me. ;-)

Uh, shouldn't the shield have reflected the ray first?
Or it's like everything else, and there's a small probability that it
fails to reflect?

Anyway, just got the wand of wishing at castle, so SDSM first and marker.
I'll feel safer... which may be worse than better actually ;-)

Thx

On 12.01.2023 17:32, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> On 2023-01-11, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> [*] But don't make the mistake I once made (in the Valley) to assume
>> that MR would provide disintegration resistance, where I died in one
>> turn; first breath disintegrated my shield, and the wall-reflected
>> ray killed me. ;-)
>
> Uh, shouldn't the shield have reflected the ray first?
> Or it's like everything else, and there's a small probability that it
> fails to reflect?

|
| @ D
|

As far as I recall; the ray hit me, thereby disintegrating my shield,
but the ray continued nonetheless past me, got reflected by the wall,
and the wall-reflected ray killed me then because I was w/o shield
at that point. (This is from faint memory. I recall to have posted
about it at that time, years ago, but I couldn't find it w/ Google
on a quick search.)

Janis

On 12.01.2023 19:07, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> |
> | @ D
> |
>
> As far as I recall; the ray hit me, thereby disintegrating my shield,
> but the ray continued nonetheless past me, got reflected by the wall,
> and the wall-reflected ray killed me then because I was w/o shield
> at that point. (This is from faint memory. I recall to have posted
> about it at that time, years ago, but I couldn't find it w/ Google
> on a quick search.)

I just confirmed that game behavior by a test in explore mode.

Janis

On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 10:35:25 AM UTC-8, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> I just confirmed that game behavior by a test in explore mode.

(The earlier post would have been clearer if you had mentioned
that your shield at the time was not a shield of reflection.)

If wearing a shield (other than reflection), disintegration will
destroy it but you will survive. If not wearing any shield, but
wearing a suit (even leather jacket, and presumably a robe in
slash'em where it is worn in the suit slot rather than the cloak
slot), disintegration will destroy your cloak, suit, and shirt but
you will survive. If not wearing a shield or a suit, you will be
disintegrated.

I don't think it's possible to get a double bounce and triple
hit against the hero on the same breath attack but I might
be wrong. I don't think the range can be long enough to
hit the hero and pass through, bounce off an adjacent wall
or reflecting monster, hit the hero a second time and pass
through, then pass through the blank dragon, bounce off
the wall behind it and pass through it again to hit the hero
for a third time. However, it might be long enough if the
dragon had been wearing an amulet of reflection while in
some other form then kept that when being polymorphed
into a black dragon. The distance for the second bounce
and third hit would be shorter that way, both by a pair of
steps and by not passing through the dragon.

On 12.01.2023 20:03, Pat Rankin wrote:
> On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 10:35:25 AM UTC-8, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> I just confirmed that game behavior by a test in explore mode.
>
> (The earlier post would have been clearer if you had mentioned
> that your shield at the time was not a shield of reflection.)

Maybe. But a shield of reflection would not have got disintegrated
in the first place; it reflects all the dragon breaths.

>
> If wearing a shield (other than reflection), disintegration will
> destroy it but you will survive. If not wearing any shield, but
> wearing a suit (even leather jacket, and presumably a robe in
> slash'em where it is worn in the suit slot rather than the cloak
> slot), disintegration will destroy your cloak, suit, and shirt but
> you will survive. If not wearing a shield or a suit, you will be
> disintegrated.
>
> [ snip multi-bounce considerations ]

Shield and cloak seem to not suffice:

The black dragon breathes a disintegration blast!
The blast of disintegration hits you! Your shield crumbles away!
The blast of disintegration bounces!
The blast of disintegration hits you!
Your cloak crumbles and turns to dust!
Die? [yn] (n)

And cloak and body armor seem to disintegrate in the same instance:

The black dragon breathes a disintegration blast!
The blast of disintegration hits you! Your shield crumbles away!
The blast of disintegration bounces!
The blast of disintegration hits you!
Your cloak crumbles and turns to dust!
Your armor turns to dust and falls to the floor!
The blast of disintegration hits the black dragon.

I don't recall whether in that decades old game I had worn body
armor.

The point remains; be very careful with black dragons if you lack
reflection (and disintegration-resistance), and avoid reflecting
walls (if possible).

Janis