I intend to get naked and fix the problem. I should only have to slide behind
one. I think I can hack my way back into pleased or well-pleased before
needing to pray, maybe even with the monsters on the fourth level of
Sokoban. Sometimes there is talk about what is necessary for ascension.
Someone said an aligned altar. I doubt there are many ascensions
which skip Sokoban.

On 16.01.2023 12:02, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> Sokoban. Sometimes there is talk about what is necessary for ascension.
> Someone said an aligned altar. I doubt there are many ascensions
> which skip Sokoban.

I know that there are folks who skip Sokoban completely because they
don't like that "game in game" (IIRC, Irina alias Raisse said that
she does that; she's not around here any more but some may remember
her from earlier days).

But I think we have to differentiate a bit. I'm positive that neither
altars nor Sokoban is "necessary" for ascension; the latter even less
than altars, because you can randomly find everything in Sokoban also
elsewhere. Altars are very convenient and a game changer but also not
necessary. You can get holy water by other means, randomly, or with a
(confused) blessed scroll of remove curse and plain potions of water
(that you get from diluting). You can get luck by throwing gems to
co-aligned unicorns. You can BUC-identify items by pets. You can get
protection (if you want that) also by praying. You can get an artifact
by dipping or praying if you need one (not all roles, though). WRT
Sokoban it happens that I find a bag or reflection even before Sokoban,
so that I don't need to complete it. Personally I want the scrolls of
earth from the first Sokoban level and also the wands, some of which
might be also a milestone in surviving. Some roles also want to get
the food there to prevent early game starvation or to support altar
camping.

Especially some of Slashem's Sokoban levels are quite boring; they
require too much time and long lasting boring actions to finish. I
suppose that's an incentive to skip Sokoban levels. OTOH, since it's
so hard a variant the wands you find there may be considered even
more important.

Janis

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 9:05:09 AM UTC-6, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 16.01.2023 12:02, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> > Sokoban. Sometimes there is talk about what is necessary for ascension.
> > Someone said an aligned altar. I doubt there are many ascensions
> > which skip Sokoban.
> I know that there are folks who skip Sokoban completely because they
> don't like that "game in game" (IIRC, Irina alias Raisse said that
> she does that; she's not around here any more but some may remember
> her from earlier days).

I went back and cheated on one boulder like I said. A ways down the road
the effects aren't noticed. I just drank a ! of gain level to get to lvl 16. I had to
get holy water because the potion was cursed, and it said Set is well-pleased.

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 9:05:09 AM UTC-6, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> co-aligned unicorns. You can BUC-identify items by pets. You can get
> protection (if you want that) also by praying. You can get an artifact

Does getting protection have a requirement before praying?

> by dipping or praying if you need one (not all roles, though). WRT
> Sokoban it happens that I find a bag or reflection even before Sokoban,
> so that I don't need to complete it. Personally I want the scrolls of
> earth from the first Sokoban level and also the wands, some of which
> might be also a milestone in surviving. Some roles also want to get
> the food there to prevent early game starvation or to support altar
> camping.

Not to mention there is 10,000-20,000 xp in Sokoban.

On 17.01.2023 07:36, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>
> I went back and cheated on one boulder like I said.

I would not call that cheat because it is considered by the game
as possible option to solve a spoiled Sokoban game and you get a
-1 luck penalty as compensation for that deed.

Janis

On 17.01.2023 07:38, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 9:05:09 AM UTC-6, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>> co-aligned unicorns. You can BUC-identify items by pets. You can get
>> protection (if you want that) also by praying. You can get an artifact
>
> Does getting protection have a requirement before praying?

I don't understand that; but my text may have also been misleading.

What I meant was that you can get protection from paying the priest
of an temple (an attended altar), but you don't need that [attended]
altar for that purpose because eventually you get also protection
as an outcome from an ordinary [altar-less] prayer.

> [Sokoban gains]
>
> Not to mention there is 10,000-20,000 xp in Sokoban.

I suppose it must be more XPs in NH-36x than it was in NH-343 (due
to a fix in Sokoban level-depth calculation and as a result higher
level monsters now generated there). - Some of my played roles had
already some difficulties with the zoo-monsters in Sokoban, though,
and that is NH-343; it might be worth a consideration to advance
XP more slowly but maybe also a bit safer at the first Mines level
instead. I guess it depends what looks more appealing, especially
since Sokoban has all these other interesting prizes it's tempting.

Janis

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 3:02:23 AM UTC-8, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> [...] I think I can hack my way back into pleased or well-pleased before
> needing to pray, maybe even with the monsters on the fourth level of
> Sokoban. [...]

Apples and oranges. Violating the Sokoban restrictions affects
luck, killing monsters affects alignment. Both affect praying.

When not carrying a luckstone or an artifact which behaves like
one, luck returns to 0 over time. So you don't need to do anything
in particular to fix it if you happen to wait long enough. Clearing
out the treasure zoo on the top Sokoban level will take plenty of
time provided you haven't gotten hit by multiple luck penalties.