I'm in a very bad situation: Asmodeus' lair, Yeenoghu went after me,
but as I've no free action, he paralizes me and hits up 90% of my HP (-100 HP):
next turn I'm dead.
I'm free again, but confused, and I must escape immediatly: can I
branchport with the Eye in one turn, from Asmodeus' lair?

Thank you!
ID

OK, it's even worse: I tried this in wizard mode (first time I try this
mode), and it worked, even confused, from azmodeus' lair... cool I thought!
Here I go on the server, do it, and yes it works, but Yeenoghu came
with me! :-(
and I'm in Sokoban :~-S ...

without branchporting anymore...

but still alive, not for long I guess...

On 2023-01-16, Isidore Ducasse <lautreamont@inria.fr> wrote:
> I'm in a very bad situation: Asmodeus' lair, Yeenoghu went after me,
> but as I've no free action, he paralizes me and hits up 90% of my HP
> next turn I'm dead.
> I'm free again, but confused, and I must escape immediatly: can I
> branchport with the Eye in one turn, from Asmodeus' lair?
>
> Thank you!
> ID

Saved! Managed to quaff full healing, then jump, then dig...
Now Yeenoghu is stuck in Sokoban, but I guess he can still be invoked
later on, we'll see.
I'm quickly going to polymorph rings to try & get a free action ring!

On 2023-01-16, Isidore Ducasse <lautreamont@inria.fr> wrote:
> OK, it's even worse: I tried this in wizard mode (first time I try this
> mode), and it worked, even confused, from azmodeus' lair... cool I thought!
> Here I go on the server, do it, and yes it works, but Yeenoghu came
> with me! :-(
> and I'm in Sokoban :~-S ...
>
> without branchporting anymore...
>
> but still alive, not for long I guess...
>
> On 2023-01-16, Isidore Ducasse <lautreamont@inria.fr> wrote:
>> I'm in a very bad situation: Asmodeus' lair, Yeenoghu went after me,
>> but as I've no free action, he paralizes me and hits up 90% of my HP
>> next turn I'm dead.
>> I'm free again, but confused, and I must escape immediatly: can I
>> branchport with the Eye in one turn, from Asmodeus' lair?
>>
>> Thank you!
>> ID

[Please don't top-post.]

On 16.01.2023 13:31, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> Saved! Managed to quaff full healing, then jump, then dig...
> Now Yeenoghu is stuck in Sokoban, but I guess he can still be invoked
> later on, we'll see.

If you left that Sokoban level and don't come back you should be safe.

> I'm quickly going to polymorph rings to try & get a free action ring!
>
>
> On 2023-01-16, Isidore Ducasse <lautreamont@inria.fr> wrote:
>> OK, it's even worse: I tried this in wizard mode (first time I try this
>> mode), and it worked, even confused, from azmodeus' lair... cool I thought!
>> Here I go on the server, do it, and yes it works, but Yeenoghu came
>> with me! :-(
>> and I'm in Sokoban :~-S ...

If monsters are scared they usually don't follow you on level-changes.
Not sure about NH-36x, but in earlier versions an Elbereth engraving
did that.

>>
>> without branchporting anymore...
>>
>> but still alive, not for long I guess...
>>
>> On 2023-01-16, Isidore Ducasse <lautreamont@inria.fr> wrote:
>>> I'm in a very bad situation: Asmodeus' lair, Yeenoghu went after me,
>>> but as I've no free action, he paralizes me and hits up 90% of my HP
>>> next turn I'm dead.

Upthread you've written about having/losing ~100 HP; this is a very
low health value for Gehennom. I'd try to fix that before continuing.

>>> I'm free again, but confused, and I must escape immediatly: can I
>>> branchport with the Eye in one turn, from Asmodeus' lair?

T'd think that it's also possible to teleport him away (even on no-
teleport levels like Sokoban) since he may not instantly come back
to you; then leave that level.

Janis

>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>> ID

> [Please don't top-post.]

Sorry, I don't understand: what do you mean by top-post?
I'm using slrn and just type 'P' to post as I don't know any other way?
If it's a new topic, I cannot followup a previous post?

> Upthread you've written about having/losing ~100 HP; this is a very
> low health value for Gehennom. I'd try to fix that before continuing.

Ah? OK, I guess I should use nurses (but they're rare and it's super
slow), and potions of full healing and gain level. Is there any other
way?

I thought 110HP would be enough, as with AC-30 not many monsters harm
me a lot - apart from major daemons of course.

Thank you,
ID

On 16.01.2023 17:58, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>> [Please don't top-post.]
>
> Sorry, I don't understand: what do you mean by top-post?

Before I try (as a non-native speaker) to explain by own words I better
quote some articles...

For styles generally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

Rationale (taken from https://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html):
"Top-posting makes posts incomprehensible. Firstly: In normal
conversations, one does not answer to something that has not yet been
said. So it is unclear to reply to the top, whilst the original message
is at the bottom. Secondly: In western society a book is normally read
from top to bottom. Top-posting forces one to stray from this
convention: Reading some at the top, skipping to the bottom to read the
question, and going back to the top to continue. This annoyance
increases even more than linear with the number of top-posts in the
message. If someone replies to a thread and you forgot what the thread
was all about, or that thread was incomplete for some reasons, it will
be quite tiresome to rapidly understand what the thread was all about,
due to bad posting and irrelevant text which has not been removed. [...]
Top-posting makes it hard for bottom-posters to reply to the relevant
parts: it not possible to answer within the original message.
Bottom-posting does not make top-posting any harder. "

I recall to have had a better text in the past but could not find it.
("better" = terse/compact and yet more facts)

> I'm using slrn and just type 'P' to post as I don't know any other way?
> If it's a new topic, I cannot followup a previous post?

I cannot tell about 'slrn'; you'd have to inspect its documentation.
Usually newsreaders allow to define the default posting mode.

>
>> Upthread you've written about having/losing ~100 HP; this is a very
>> low health value for Gehennom. I'd try to fix that before continuing.
>
> Ah? OK, I guess I should use nurses (but they're rare and it's super
> slow), and potions of full healing and gain level. Is there any other
> way?

Different roles advance maxHPs differently fast with every level gain.
Generally (for me) it boils down to doing alchemy (healing, speed,
gain energy, holy water) with stacks of potions.

>
> I thought 110HP would be enough, as with AC-30 not many monsters harm
> me a lot - apart from major daemons of course.

I'd certainly not say that it's not possible to ascend that way, but
as you experienced yourself it might get tough. In my Nethack time I
strived (as a rule of thumb) for at least HP:180, felt comfortable
with around HP:240, and rather safe with HP280+. These values depend
on other circumstances, of course; like AC, damage reducing artifacts,
etc. (In Slashem I want at least HP:300.)

Janis

>> Sorry, I don't understand: what do you mean by top-post?
>
> Before I try (as a non-native speaker) to explain by own words I better
> quote some articles...
>
> For styles generally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

Thanks, as I understand it, it means that you first saw my last message,
and below it my second and at last my first, which, I agree, is not
nice. But all I did was just reply to my own message, which creates a
"thread", and then, it should be the job of the news reader to order
messages anti-chronologically by thread; isn't it?
Actually, that's what slrn is doing, and in my terminal, I see
every thread with the first message at the top, and when unrolling,
the second, and so on.

But I indeed understand that if a newsreader does not do that, then it's
really annoying. What should have I done? (honest question)
.... Thinking about it, may be I should have replied *below* the quoting
of the previous message, and not before, as I do it here; OK, makes sense!

It's weird that after spending so many years doing computer science, I
only understand now this issue; (or maybe I forgot it when news readers
started sorting threads).
OK, thanks. I'll pay attention.

ID

On 16.01.2023 21:40, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>>> Sorry, I don't understand: what do you mean by top-post?
>>
>> Before I try (as a non-native speaker) to explain by own words I better
>> quote some articles...
>>
>> For styles generally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
>
> Thanks, as I understand it, it means that you first saw my last message,
> and below it my second and at last my first, which, I agree, is not
> nice.

I think it's best explained by an example...

>>> At noon.
>> I'll join you. When are you leaving?
> Lunch at the Italian.
What are you doing later today?

> But all I did was just reply to my own message, which creates a
> "thread", and then, it should be the job of the news reader to order
> messages anti-chronologically by thread; isn't it?

I think it's not the task of a newsreader to rearrange text in a way
not intended by the poster. (If that is what you described here.)

In the newsreaders I used thus far (from simple text-oriented to GUI-
oriented) I generally had the basic options to post a new message
(i.e. a new thread) and reply to an existing post (follow-up to posts
in threads).

In case of replies the behavior could be configured in the settings.
For example in Thunderbird (that I currently use) I can define:
[x] Automatically quote original message
and then (in my case)
[x] start reply below the quote

I've seen a couple users posting also with slrn while still complying
with the long existing Usenet etiquette.

> Actually, that's what slrn is doing, and in my terminal, I see
> every thread with the first message at the top, and when unrolling,
> the second, and so on.

I don't know slrn's user interface, but (in my book) it certainly
should support more than one posting style, specifically the quasi
standard. (If it doesn't then I'd tend to suggest changing newsreader,
but that suggestion could be considered rude. ;-)

When searching on the Web for 'slrn_ I see that you can configure an
editor of your choice, so I assume you have the original posted text
available and it should be easy to add text below.

>
> But I indeed understand that if a newsreader does not do that, then it's
> really annoying. What should have I done? (honest question)

Well I saw your post defined as

> third post (second follow-up)
>> second post (first follow-up)
>>> first post

so try to configure it (if possible) doing it the other way round
if its GUI does not allow to append text below the previous post.

> ... Thinking about it, may be I should have replied *below* the quoting
> of the previous message, and not before, as I do it here; OK, makes sense!

Okay, I wrote all that above for nothing. (I should have read the
whole post before replying.)

>
> It's weird that after spending so many years doing computer science, I
> only understand now this issue; (or maybe I forgot it when news readers
> started sorting threads).

I'm not sure what you mean by "sorting threads". I started using 'nn'
(also a text-oriented plain newsreader with vi-editing) in the 1990's
(later 'tin' and other tools) and posts were always organized/"sorted"
in threads.

> OK, thanks. I'll pay attention.

Thanks.

Janis

>> It's weird that after spending so many years doing computer science, I
>> only understand now this issue; (or maybe I forgot it when news readers
>> started sorting threads).
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "sorting threads". I started using 'nn'
> (also a text-oriented plain newsreader with vi-editing) in the 1990's
> (later 'tin' and other tools) and posts were always organized/"sorted"
> in threads.

You're right: I'm using slrn because I can then edit everything with
vim (I only work with terminal, always); and indeed, I'm seeing in vim
the quotes, so it's just my decision to reply above or below;
I now know that I should reply below ;-)

Didn't know "nn" or "tin"; but it's getting hard to find a good TUI tool
with vim-like commands.
For reddit, I'm using "tuir" for instance. By the way, there's also an
active reddit group about nethack, but usenet has more guarantees to
last long... :-)

Thankx,
ID

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 20:40:46 -0000 (UTC), Isidore Ducasse wrote:

>>> Sorry, I don't understand: what do you mean by top-post?
[...]
>> For styles generally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
>
> Thanks, as I understand it, it means that you first saw my last message,
> and below it my second and at last my first, which, I agree, is not
> nice. But all I did was just reply to my own message, which creates a
> "thread", and then, it should be the job of the news reader to order
> messages anti-chronologically by thread; isn't it?

Top/bottom/inline posting styles refers to the text order inside any
single message body and not to the appearance of several messages that
belong to the same thread.

With (professional) mail, corporates, offices and the like sometimes
set the requirement, that any mail should contain all prior content
of a conversation. This way, earlier mails can be +/- safely deleted,
because the latest mail still contains any older information. If a
mail program is not capable of threading (or if the user prefers an
unthreaded message view), the in-mail reference also is useful.

In such a scenario, top-posting (rarely: bottom posting) is common.
In addition to the whole content of all earlier mails, a user may
copy parts of earlier mail texts as citation into the current answer
(= inline quotation).

Because Usenet is a structured discussion media, where old messages
are usually kept quite some time on servers and every user can build
message archives in the client software, as well, the requirements
differ from above mentioned (professional) mail.

All "just for archiving purposes" content ought to be left out of any
answer. What's left are (or rather: should be) small citations of such
text, that is inherently necessary for understanding the new comment,
reply text, or whatever. Because these citations are quoted, whenever
necessary, this "inline quotation" style often consists of alternating
quotes and new text, resulting in an "interleaved" look. (Another
name for the same posting style.)

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

with <tq56e9$336oh$1@dont-email.me> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 16.01.2023 21:40, Isidore Ducasse wrote:

*SKIP*
> I've seen a couple users posting also with slrn while still complying
> with the long existing Usenet etiquette.

This is misconception. slrn isn't GUI, doesn't have it's own editor for
message composition. I dare to speculate none ncurses news-client have
such feature (because -- unix-way?).

SLRN_EDITOR
The editor to start for editing articles. If this
variable is unset, slrn subsequently looks at
$SLANG_EDITOR, $EDITOR and $VISUAL.

However, in FTN world clients (they are called echo-processors over
there) provide such heresy. But those are rooted in DOS, different
origin.

*CUT*

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

On 17.01.2023 12:51, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>
> Didn't know "nn" or "tin"; but it's getting hard to find a good TUI tool
> with vim-like commands.

I liked the quite primitive appearing 'nn' a lot, but now decades passed
and I don't remember whether it would still qualify with "state of the
art" features. - It's obviously still supported; on my system 'man nn'
shows a manual page. - When switching to 'tin' (for a short period only)
in the 1990's I recall that despite the fancier text interface I liked
'nn' more (with became unavailable at that time on the system I used).

It is not uncommon that good tools let you configure, access, and use
external editors for the editing tasks, so that you don't need to switch
to inferior functions. Personally I try to use 'vim' wherever I can -
there's even web browser plugins for HTML text ares where you can choose
an editor -, but my current Thunderbird client only has its own built-in
and typical GUI-editor; a drawback.

> For reddit, I'm using "tuir" for instance. By the way, there's also an
> active reddit group about nethack, but usenet has more guarantees to
> last long... :-)

I'm not that sure about the Usenet duration. Folks seem to switch to
Web-based and other (even commercially driven) forums.

This RGRN newsgroup and its degradation of posters (compared to the
earlier times) - presuming the reason is not the NH game quality - is
at least an indication for that decay.

Janis

>> I've seen a couple users posting also with slrn while still complying
>> with the long existing Usenet etiquette.
>
> This is misconception. slrn isn't GUI, doesn't have it's own editor for
> message composition. I dare to speculate none ncurses news-client have
> such feature (because -- unix-way?).

I like this way: one ligthweight tool that does one task well.
And the freedom to follow, or not, the Usenet etiquette.
In my case, I only partly (small part) know it, which explains my
previous mistake. But I guess it's still better like that than a client
that forces us to act in a given way.

> SLRN_EDITOR
> The editor to start for editing articles. If this
> variable is unset, slrn subsequently looks at
> $SLANG_EDITOR, $EDITOR and $VISUAL.
>
> However, in FTN world clients (they are called echo-processors over
> there) provide such heresy. But those are rooted in DOS, different
> origin.

My poor wizard is now... confused (just to relate in a way or another
with nethack). What means FTN? And what is an heresy?
(I'm clearly part of the unix-world, and don't know anything about the
Micro$oft world).

On 17.01.2023 16:35, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> with <tq56e9$336oh$1@dont-email.me> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 16.01.2023 21:40, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>
> *SKIP*
>> I've seen a couple users posting also with slrn while still complying
>> with the long existing Usenet etiquette.
>
> This is misconception. slrn isn't GUI, doesn't have it's own editor for
> message composition.

I know; I wrote in my post also:
"When searching on the Web for 'slrn' I see that you can configure an
editor of your choice, so I assume you have the original posted text
available and it should be easy to add text below."

I expressed my non-understanding of where the problem with 'slrn' lies.

Janis

> Top/bottom/inline posting styles refers to the text order inside any
> single message body and not to the appearance of several messages that
> belong to the same thread.

Right, thanks for clarification; I used "thread" as a way to encode
a thread into a single message, that's probably not the real meaning of
the word.

> In such a scenario, top-posting (rarely: bottom posting) is common.
> In addition to the whole content of all earlier mails, a user may
> copy parts of earlier mail texts as citation into the current answer
> (= inline quotation).

I tend to use inline quotation everywhere, because... I like it;
and when I'm following-up, working in a single window, having the old
message one line above and manipulating it just like the new text is
convenient.
I guess/hope it's OK with Usenet's (and every other communication
channel) etiquette.

thanks
ID

with <tq6qrh$nna$1@gioia.aioe.org> Isidore Ducasse wrote:

>>> I've seen a couple users posting also with slrn while still
>>> complying with the long existing Usenet etiquette.
>> This is misconception. slrn isn't GUI, doesn't have it's own editor
>> for message composition. I dare to speculate none ncurses
>> news-client have such feature (because -- unix-way?).
> I like this way: one ligthweight tool that does one task well.
*SKIP*
> But I guess it's still better like that than a client that forces us
> to act in a given way.

"does one task well" in context of vim and mail is debatable. As of
no-forcing, much scripting remains to be done.

*SKIP*
>> However, in FTN world clients (they are called echo-processors over
>> there) provide such heresy. But those are rooted in DOS, different
>> origin.
> My poor wizard is now... confused (just to relate in a way or another
> with nethack).

My poor wizard is dead of starvation (fscking pet, sneaked baby dragon
from me).

> What means FTN? And what is an heresy? (I'm clearly part of the
> unix-world, and don't know anything about the Micro$oft world).

You don't want to go there. Curiosity about certain subjects isn't
healthy.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

with <tq6r3r$3bq7b$1@dont-email.me> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 17.01.2023 16:35, Eric Pozharski wrote:
>> with <tq56e9$336oh$1@dont-email.me> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>> On 16.01.2023 21:40, Isidore Ducasse wrote:

*SKIP*
> I know; I wrote in my post also:

Sorry about that. Didn't know you would have such a lovely discussion.
leafnode is to blame.

*SKIP*
> I expressed my non-understanding of where the problem with 'slrn' lies.

Not trying to sneak or anything. You're a the best.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom