In my dNethack game I continued through the levels with the quests'
branches. My first impression lead to some frustration as I saw
that I've obviously done all these extremely large quests already
in some variant; I don't know, though, whether there's differences
in dNethack. From all the quests I picked (as suggested to me) the
standard barbarian quest as first stage.

(I noticed that there are more "filler" levels in dNethack.) The
surface is sandy but the rest seems similar to Vanilla. The ogres
died like flies, and the trolls were at most annoying. I sneaked
towards the foe, met him asleep, zapped death, and that was it.
The most trivial quest I've ever experienced.

Then I noticed that the quest artifact is not a luckstone any
more, but it has a lot of good properties, besides ANTIMAGIC,
REFLECTING, HALF_SPDAM, FIRE_RES, DRAIN_RES, also blessed remove
curse on invocation. From the poor Vanilla item (that is not
worth carrying) here they made an uber-power artifact of it.

Now what to do; descending deeper in the main dungeon or doing
one of the other quests?

BTW, I removed the ring of speed (because of nutrition demands)
and wear speed boots that I recently found. I suppose speed
boots don't require more food, or are my hopes for vain here?

And one more question; my amulets collection increased further;
- an uncursed golden amulet of reflection (being worn)
...
- an uncursed amulet of nullify magic
- an uncursed very rusty amulet versus curses
- an uncursed thoroughly rusty amulet versus evil eyes
- an uncursed amulet of life saving

A previous suggestion was to switch to life saving, now that the
quest artifact provides the reflection. But I also encountered a
lot of monsters with nasty magic attacks; cursing/disenchanting
and whatnot. I wonder whether "versus curses" or "nullify magic"
(not sure what exactly it nullifies) might be more advantageous
in practice.

Janis

An altar description in the chaotic quest that is irritating me:
"There is an altar to Chaos (unaligned) here."

Chaos <-> unaligned ?

Janis

Still in the Chaotic Quest...

Status of Lich, the Fiend of Earth (chaotic): Level 16 HP 500(500) AC
0 DR 5, meditating.

Is this beast supposed to be killed...?

Janis

Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:

> In my dNethack game I continued through the levels with the quests'
> branches. My first impression lead to some frustration as I saw
> that I've obviously done all these extremely large quests already
> in some variant; I don't know, though, whether there's differences
> in dNethack. From all the quests I picked (as suggested to me) the
> standard barbarian quest as first stage.
>

Was this variant notdNetHack? notdNetHack only adds new stuff to
dNetHack and doesn't remove anything, so it has all of dNetHack's
quests. The lower part of the neutral quest (depths/lost cities) is
taken from the lethe patch, but significantly changed in dNetHack.

>
> (I noticed that there are more "filler" levels in dNethack.) The
> surface is sandy but the rest seems similar to Vanilla. The ogres
> died like flies, and the trolls were at most annoying. I sneaked
> towards the foe, met him asleep, zapped death, and that was it.
> The most trivial quest I've ever experienced.
>

It's slightly less trivial if he picks up the QA first, since that gives
him reflection and MR.

>
> Then I noticed that the quest artifact is not a luckstone any
> more, but it has a lot of good properties, besides ANTIMAGIC,
> REFLECTING, HALF_SPDAM, FIRE_RES, DRAIN_RES, also blessed remove
> curse on invocation. From the poor Vanilla item (that is not
> worth carrying) here they made an uber-power artifact of it.
>
> Now what to do; descending deeper in the main dungeon or doing
> one of the other quests?
>

Since your other post mentions an unaligned altar to Chaos, you got
chaos1. The chaos1 artifacts are quite nice (slotless resistances +
skills + spells + lifesaving if you carry all the crystals in open
inventory), but really heavy, and the bosses that you have to kill are
quite strong and have lots of HP (ranging from 500 (Lich) to 2000
(Chaos)). I would probably do the first few levels of the neutral quest
(outlands), as they can contain some inclusions with nice artifacts. If
you just want to get 3 alignment keys as soon as possible, the lawful
quest is easiest.

>
> BTW, I removed the ring of speed (because of nutrition demands)
> and wear speed boots that I recently found. I suppose speed
> boots don't require more food, or are my hopes for vain here?
>

Speed boots don't require any extra food.

>
> And one more question; my amulets collection increased further;
> - an uncursed golden amulet of reflection (being worn)
> ...
> - an uncursed amulet of nullify magic
> - an uncursed very rusty amulet versus curses
> - an uncursed thoroughly rusty amulet versus evil eyes
> - an uncursed amulet of life saving
>
> A previous suggestion was to switch to life saving, now that the
> quest artifact provides the reflection. But I also encountered a
> lot of monsters with nasty magic attacks; cursing/disenchanting
> and whatnot. I wonder whether "versus curses" or "nullify magic"
> (not sure what exactly it nullifies) might be more advantageous
> in practice.
>

Versus curses provides curse resistance, which is nice, but redundant
with the Wrappings of the Sacred Fist if you're wearing those. Nullify
magic provides magic resistance, but also blocks your spellcasting.
It's strictly inferior to the magic resistance provided by your QA.

On 20.09.2023 01:58, Ron Nazarov wrote:
> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> [ the various existing quests ]
>
> Was this variant notdNetHack? notdNetHack only adds new stuff to
> dNetHack and doesn't remove anything, so it has all of dNetHack's
> quests. The lower part of the neutral quest (depths/lost cities) is
> taken from the lethe patch, but significantly changed in dNetHack.

I recently played so many variants that I cannot tell for sure,
but a [ndnh] post from 2023-07-03 makes me think that this was
it. - I have to admit that I haven't enjoyed it; too convoluted,
too large, basically a fixed layout, overcrowded - not what I'd
prefer, but okay. Yet it was a deja vu.

>> [ barbarian quest nemesis ]
>
> It's slightly less trivial if he picks up the QA first, since that gives
> him reflection and MR.

Yeah, that's why I was careful to get invisible and not wake him
up. Myself I was (somewhat to my surprise) aggravating monsters,
but also stealthy so the procedure worked.

>> [ Q: order of handling the quests? ]
>
> Since your other post mentions an unaligned altar to Chaos, you got
> chaos1. The chaos1 artifacts are quite nice (slotless resistances +
> skills + spells + lifesaving if you carry all the crystals in open
> inventory), but really heavy, and the bosses that you have to kill are
> quite strong and have lots of HP (ranging from 500 (Lich) to 2000
> (Chaos)). I would probably do the first few levels of the neutral quest
> (outlands), as they can contain some inclusions with nice artifacts. If
> you just want to get 3 alignment keys as soon as possible, the lawful
> quest is easiest.

I did a few levels up and/or down in the Chaos Quest. Got another
non-impressive artifact weapon for my stash, also found the "twin"
of my Firebrand there. Got the "2nd Key". Met the HP:500 lich but
left him alone. Left this "Sir Galahad"(?) asleep and alive. Met
some beholders while wearing the gaze-protecting amulet. And left.
I didn't notice any good armor; I would probably (certainly?) have
had to kill some big baddies to get that armor.

(The other two aligned keys I'll get from specific monsters, if I
read the source code correctly.)

All the stuff there made me stressed (despite my severely enhanced
carrying capacity). I'm thinking about wishing for Perseus' Wallet
(presuming that wishing for artifacts is guaranteed to succeed,
despite a lot of found and otherwise obtained artifacts existing).
Meanwhile I have two permanent candles and three permanent lamps,
so I can spend some wishes now - ...if I only knew what would make
sense in that variant.

>> [ amulets ]
>
> Versus curses provides curse resistance, which is nice, but redundant
> with the Wrappings of the Sacred Fist if you're wearing those.

No "Fist"; I decided to wear the gauntlets of power that I found.

> Nullify
> magic provides magic resistance, but also blocks your spellcasting.
> It's strictly inferior to the magic resistance provided by your QA.

Okay, good to know; so I can ignore it now that I have The Stone.

Next steps are probably to wish for the Wallet, and enter the next
quest as suggested.

Janis

On 20.09.2023 02:48, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> Next steps are probably to wish for the Wallet, and enter the next
> quest as suggested.

After my visit to the Castle I returned to the Lawful Quest and
cleared a lot of it. Finally reached Oona. That creature woke up
by attacks of two peaceful angelic beings that had been at that
level waiting as statues. Oona quickly killed them and sung some
slowing tune (three times!). I read that each one will slow a
character by 18 points? - Would that mean a completely suspended
motion? - With my speed boots (or my free action?) I didn't
seem to have suffered from it, nonetheless I am reluctant to
get adjacent to her. (The slow-attack was from distance.) She
seems to be very tough, the Wiki's description is frightening.

BTW, I just now experienced that there are more than three quest
keys. (Getting them seems optional?) What are the nine keys for?

Janis

On 23.09.2023 16:41, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> After my visit to the Castle I returned to the Lawful Quest [...]

> [Oona] [...], nonetheless I am reluctant to
> get adjacent to her. (The slow-attack was from distance.) She
> seems to be very tough, the Wiki's description is frightening.

Three hits with my artifact Scythe and she was gone.

The demon statue had an artifact Rod contained, but I could not
pick it up (like non-fitting quest artifacts); this is intended
I assume? (Myself being Chaotic.)

Janis

Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:

> Still in the Chaotic Quest...
>
> Status of Lich, the Fiend of Earth (chaotic): Level 16 HP 500(500) AC
> 0 DR 5, meditating.
>
> Is this beast supposed to be killed...?

If you want the Earth Crystal, yes. Wards may help and he's vulnerable
to blunt damage. (Chaos will also be stronger if you don't kill all the
fiends first, if you want the Black Crystal/Third Key of Chaos.)

On 23.09.2023 22:19, Ron Nazarov wrote:
> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>> Still in the Chaotic Quest...
>>
>> Status of Lich, the Fiend of Earth (chaotic): Level 16 HP 500(500) AC
>> 0 DR 5, meditating. - Is this beast supposed to be killed...?
>
> If you want the Earth Crystal, yes.

I have seen four elemental crystal balls, embedded in walls (I think)
around that sleeping/meditating Garland monster. I left these heavy
items where I've seen them, to not wake up Garland from my kicks, and
because crystal balls are too heavy to carry them around. The source
code also didn't seem to show any new or relevant properties for me.

> Wards may help and he's vulnerable
> to blunt damage. (Chaos will also be stronger if you don't kill all the
> fiends first, if you want the Black Crystal/Third Key of Chaos.)

Yes, if I can achieve it I kill the minions of a quest nemesis first.

Yet I don't see that these items would be of any use, or how, or when
they might become useful. (Maybe I'll run into a dead end where all
these nine artifact quest keys are needed; will have to come back to
the quest if that's the case.)

Meanwhile I've found or got so many (useless) artifacts that I wonder
why they have been invented. - Maybe the most interesting is the one
that (IIUC) will genocide the monsters on the whole level (the player
included); will make these amulets of life saving useful (IIUC).

Janis

Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:

> On 23.09.2023 22:19, Ron Nazarov wrote:
>> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>>> Still in the Chaotic Quest...
>>>
>>> Status of Lich, the Fiend of Earth (chaotic): Level 16 HP 500(500) AC
>>> 0 DR 5, meditating. - Is this beast supposed to be killed...?
>>
>> If you want the Earth Crystal, yes.
>
> I have seen four elemental crystal balls, embedded in walls (I think)
> around that sleeping/meditating Garland monster. I left these heavy
> items where I've seen them, to not wake up Garland from my kicks, and
> because crystal balls are too heavy to carry them around. The source
> code also didn't seem to show any new or relevant properties for me.

You encounter Garland twice. Both times he's really weak and you can
easily kill him, but the second time, he will spawn Chaos when you kill
him. The properties of the crystals are described on the wiki:
<https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DNetHack_artifacts#The_Black_Crystal>.
You can kick them to dislodge them from the wall, but you cannot
actually pick them up until you have killed the corresponding fiends.

>> Wards may help and he's vulnerable
>> to blunt damage. (Chaos will also be stronger if you don't kill all the
>> fiends first, if you want the Black Crystal/Third Key of Chaos.)
>
> Yes, if I can achieve it I kill the minions of a quest nemesis first.
>
> Yet I don't see that these items would be of any use, or how, or when
> they might become useful. (Maybe I'll run into a dead end where all
> these nine artifact quest keys are needed; will have to come back to
> the quest if that's the case.)

At most, you need 3. The first VotD artifact door can be bypassed with
phasing if you have that, so only 2 are actually required.

> Meanwhile I've found or got so many (useless) artifacts that I wonder
> why they have been invented. - Maybe the most interesting is the one
> that (IIUC) will genocide the monsters on the whole level (the player
> included); will make these amulets of life saving useful (IIUC).

That one's not actually very useful in practice: it costs a life-save
and dangerous genocidable monsters can just be genocided.

On 19.09.2023 14:04, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> In my dNethack game I continued through the levels with the quests'
> branches. [...]

I found the yet missing entry to the deeper neutral quest levels.
Cleared everything in some of the sub-branches. At one of the end
levels I noticed "Illurien of the Myriad Glimpses" and I recalled
that I met her in another game/variant, resurrecting for the rest
of the game; so I left her asleep this time. In another sub-branch
quest-end level I found another artifact that I was unable to pick
up, "The Cloak of the Unheld One"; I think I found such an unusable
artifact also in another quest branch. Another weapontool (a glass
rod) I took with me but, frankly, I've no idea what to do with it.
Yet I haven't found the entry to the (neutral) lethe sub-quest.
In the lawful quest I'm still missing the entry to the sub-quest
where the Platinum Dragon can be found. And the chaos quest files
in the source code seem to indicate that I also have to continue
there. - The whole game seems to consist of quest levels, only. :-/

Janis

On 29.09.2023 00:34, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 19.09.2023 14:04, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> In my dNethack game I continued through the levels with the quests'
>> branches. [...]

In the chaotic quest I killed all the fiends, proceeding downwards.
Got the Crystal artifacts, stashed the four elemental ones at the
base camp and took the black one with me. I think I've now visited
all chaotic quest (sub-)branches - but I'm still lacking the First
Key of Chaos! - Where did I miss it?

I now have all three lawful keys and two chaotic ones. Yet I don't
have any of the neutral quest keys. (Neutral quest is probably my
next stage...)

Some more artifacts got also stashed. I'm still carrying a lot of
weapons with me, e.g.

- the +0 Hellfire
- the blessed rustproof +6 Stormbringer
- a +0 golden atgeir
- the blessed rustproof +6 Mjollnir
- a blessed +3 crystalline platinum long sword
- a blessed +3 arcing platinum stiletto
- the +0 Silence Glaive
- the +0 Frost Brand
- the +0 Fire Brand
- the +0 Quicksilver

I'm tempted to stash the atgair and the Hellfile. I'm unsure what
to do with those +3 weapons; shall I keep them for two-weaponing?
(I think I've read somewhere that a non-artifact is necessary in
this variant as secondary weapon.) OTOH, the Lifehunt Scythe, this
marvelous artifact that I'm mostly using is two-handed, so I can't
use another one off-hand. I also think that I can leave back the
Fire/Frost Brands. (And probably also the Quicksilver?) An option
might be to two-weapon Stormbringer and Mjollnis (provided these
two artifacts are possible to be wielded at the same time).

I wonder what other folks do with such an abundance of artifacts.

Janis

On 19.09.2023 14:04, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> In my dNethack game I continued through the levels with the quests'
> branches. [...]

Finally I died at the quest; didn't really know what happened here.
The Good Neighbor killed my (or two of them?) in an open Lethe area.
Some of my armor had turned from +6/+2 to -6/-2 (yellow dragon, hat).
Other armor was gone somehow (speed boots, cloak of displacement).
Where there two blue demons around? (My ipbt doesn't work reliably.)
There was a sarcophagus that I left alone; but monsters spawned there.
Some other demon (priest of an unknown god) I first left alone; did
he resurrect after killing him? (Some demon appeared there later.)
Gates got opened and monsters let into our sphere. Really scare and
strange. A rather quick death. I had no idea what would have been the
right thing to do there to escape or kill those beasts. From that
Good Neighbor's HP:~580(?) I could only take him about 140 points
with my blessed +9 Holy Moonlight Sword.

Okay, now for something completely different...

Janis

with <ufeqj6$315fi$1@dont-email.me> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 19.09.2023 14:04, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

>> In my dNethack game I continued through the levels with the quests'
>> branches. [...]
>
> Finally I died at the quest;
[*SKIP*]
> Okay, now for something completely different...

Chess?

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

03.10.23 10:45 — Eric Pozharski:
> with <ufeqj6$315fi$1@dont-email.me> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 19.09.2023 14:04, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>> In my dNethack game I continued through the levels with the quests'
>>> branches. [...]
>> Finally I died at the quest;
> [*SKIP*]

>> Okay, now for something completely different...
> Chess?

----------------------------------------
GREETINGS PROFESSOR FALKEN

HOW ABOUT A NICE GAME OF CHESS?

----------------------------------------

;-)

Benjamin

--
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires.
Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-- Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles

On 03.10.2023 10:45, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> with <ufeqj6$315fi$1@dont-email.me> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 19.09.2023 14:04, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>>> In my dNethack game I continued through the levels with the quests'
>>> branches. [...]
>>
>> Finally I died at the quest;
> [*SKIP*]
>> Okay, now for something completely different...
>
> Chess?

:-)

I actually haven't yet tried all the Nethack variants, so...

Picked the next one, Gnollhack. - After some playing there
was a hangup and I couldn't kill the session and needed to
wait for a timeout. Now restarting it there was no recover
possible. I can only abandon the game. Or ask the admin to
recover it? Probably not worth if that variant is unstable.
And since the UI is anyway, um.., different (or peculiar),
I'm not sure it makes sense to continue.

What was that "Chess" thing? Are there altars and artifacts?

Janis

On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 13:48:16 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> What was that "Chess" thing? Are there altars and artifacts?

Just sacrifices. (It is one of the earlier variants without all these
newer bells, whistles and kitchen sinks...) ;-)

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

On 03.10.2023 16:55, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 13:48:16 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>> What was that "Chess" thing? Are there altars and artifacts?
>
> Just sacrifices. (It is one of the earlier variants without all these
> newer bells, whistles and kitchen sinks...) ;-)

LOL - YMMD!

Janis

with <rviflmvjjspw.dlg@br-ederson.eternal-september.org> B. R. 'BeAr'
Ederson wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 13:48:16 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

>> What was that "Chess" thing? Are there altars and artifacts?
> Just sacrifices. (It is one of the earlier variants without all these
> newer bells, whistles and kitchen sinks...) ;-)

I was thinking here. I've come to conclusion that correct way would be
two monsters with 16 slots (it varies in both directions). And not two
teams of 16 monsters playing more or less cooperatively.

Then, (ratio of?) parts of the dangeon contolled(?) by monsters would be
strength, capabiliy to attack would be dexterity, and capability to
withstand an attack would be constitution. Intelligence and wisdom are
more misterious though. And yes, there is that charisma thing.

See? Chess is a nethack variant.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

On 17.11.2023 11:18, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> with <rviflmvjjspw.dlg@br-ederson.eternal-september.org> B. R. 'BeAr'
> Ederson wrote:
>> On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 13:48:16 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>>> What was that "Chess" thing? Are there altars and artifacts?
>> Just sacrifices. (It is one of the earlier variants without all these
>> newer bells, whistles and kitchen sinks...) ;-)
>
> I was thinking here. I've come to conclusion that correct way would be
> two monsters with 16 slots (it varies in both directions). And not two
> teams of 16 monsters playing more or less cooperatively.
>
> Then, (ratio of?) parts of the dangeon contolled(?) by monsters would be
> strength, capabiliy to attack would be dexterity, and capability to
> withstand an attack would be constitution. Intelligence and wisdom are
> more misterious though. And yes, there is that charisma thing.
>
> See? Chess is a nethack variant.

Or part of it? (A game-in-game like Sokoban, Mastermind, etc.)

-------------------
| q u d @ @ d u q |
| r r r r r r r r |
| . . . . . . . . |
+ . . . . . . . . @######
+ . . . . . . . . +######
| . . . . . . . . |
| r r r r r r r r |
| q u d @ @ d u q |
-------------------

I wonder whether the board should have altars instead of plain floor,
so that sacrifices are possible anywhere in such a special room.

Are there more appropriate monster species than the depicted ones?
(Or do we need yet more new monsters types for that to work?)

Shall half of the monsters be peaceful (depending on alignment match)?

Depending on which team wins, will it provide a prize, or open a quest?
(I wouldn't expect that monsters' moves will follow the chess rules.)

Janis