On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 5:42:16 AM UTC-7, Dd Pk wrote:
> Just found this in a previous group post (https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/HR8CcQ06I4M/m/MXAWzVW9iCkJ)
>
> QUOTE STARTS
> ...
> 6. Walter de Cantelou was born 1126 in Longueville, St Saviour, Jersey,
> Channel Isles, and died ABT 1182. He was the son of 12. Walter de
> Cantelou.
>
> Children of Walter de Cantelou are:
> ...
> ii. William I de Cantelou , of Aston Cantlow was born ABT 1158 in
> Aston Cantlow, Alcester, Warwickshire, England, and died 7 APR 1239 in
> Ellesborough, Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, England. He married Macelin
> Braci ABT 1184, daughter of Adulph Braci. She was born 1163 in
> Shropshire, England.
> ...
> 12. Walter de Cantelou was born ABT 1102 in Canteleu, Seine-Inferieure,
> Normandy, France. He was the son of 24. Gilbert de Cantelou.
> ...
> 24. Gilbert de Cantelou was born ABT 1074 in Canteleu,
> Seine-Inferieure, Normandy, France.
>
> QUOTE ENDS
>
>
> So: William de Cantelou b.c. 1158 Warks, son of Walter de Cantelou b.c.1126 in Jersey, son of Walter de Cantelou b.c.1102 in Normandy, son of Gilbert b.c.1074
>
> Is this accepted as correct?
Is these some primary source evidence of Walter de Cantelou/Cantilupe (hereinafter Cantilupe) being connected with Island of Guernsey or Island of Jersey in the 12th century?

Here is the evidence that connects Walter de Cantilupe and a William de Cantilupe and a Gilbert de Cantilupe to the Priory of St. Faith, Longueville, Diocese of Rouen, Northern Normandy in the 12th century through 1155. https://archive.org/details/cu31924028043663/page/77/mode/1up?q=Cantelupo&view=theater The source also shows a Robert de Cantelupe connected with the Abbey of St. Georges of Bochervillle, Diocese of Rouen, Northern Normandy in 1114. https://archive.org/details/cu31924028043663/page/66/mode/1up?q=Cantelupo&view=theater While these Cantilupes are likely related in some close way, their exact relationship is left to speculation until other evidence of same can be found. How these Cantilupes related to the Cantilupes who were connected with Margam Abbey in Glamorgan Wales by 1128 https://archive.org/details/liberlandavensi00manugoog/page/571/mode/1up?q=Cantilow&view=theater and later to Candleston Castle in Glamorgan Wales https://journals.library.wales/view/2527656/2908479/65#?xywh=-1590%2C-6%2C5225%2C3353 or to William de Cantilupe of England, the King's high steward, who died in 1239, is a mystery that I am hoping to solve.

On 01-Jul-23 4:51 AM, Robert Allen wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 5:42:16 AM UTC-7, Dd Pk wrote:
>> Just found this in a previous group post (https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/HR8CcQ06I4M/m/MXAWzVW9iCkJ)
>>
>> QUOTE STARTS
>> ...
>> 6. Walter de Cantelou was born 1126 in Longueville, St Saviour, Jersey,
>> Channel Isles, and died ABT 1182. He was the son of 12. Walter de
>> Cantelou.
>>
>> Children of Walter de Cantelou are:
>> ...
>> ii. William I de Cantelou , of Aston Cantlow was born ABT 1158 in
>> Aston Cantlow, Alcester, Warwickshire, England, and died 7 APR 1239 in
>> Ellesborough, Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, England. He married Macelin
>> Braci ABT 1184, daughter of Adulph Braci. She was born 1163 in
>> Shropshire, England.
>> ...
>> 12. Walter de Cantelou was born ABT 1102 in Canteleu, Seine-Inferieure,
>> Normandy, France. He was the son of 24. Gilbert de Cantelou.
>> ...
>> 24. Gilbert de Cantelou was born ABT 1074 in Canteleu,
>> Seine-Inferieure, Normandy, France.
>>
>> QUOTE ENDS
>>
>>
>> So: William de Cantelou b.c. 1158 Warks, son of Walter de Cantelou b.c.1126 in Jersey, son of Walter de Cantelou b.c.1102 in Normandy, son of Gilbert b.c.1074
>>
>> Is this accepted as correct?
>
> Is these some primary source evidence of Walter de Cantelou/Cantilupe (hereinafter Cantilupe) being connected with Island of Guernsey or Island of Jersey in the 12th century?
>
> Here is the evidence that connects Walter de Cantilupe and a William de Cantilupe and a Gilbert de Cantilupe to the Priory of St. Faith, Longueville, Diocese of Rouen, Northern Normandy in the 12th century through 1155. https://archive.org/details/cu31924028043663/page/77/mode/1up?q=Cantelupo&view=theater The source also shows a Robert de Cantelupe connected with the Abbey of St. Georges of Bochervillle, Diocese of Rouen, Northern Normandy in 1114. https://archive.org/details/cu31924028043663/page/66/mode/1up?q=Cantelupo&view=theater While these Cantilupes are likely related in some close way, their exact relationship is left to speculation until other evidence of same can be found. How these Cantilupes related to the Cantilupes who were connected with Margam Abbey in Glamorgan Wales by 1128 https://archive.org/details/liberlandavensi00manugoog/page/571/mode/1up?q=Cantilow&view=theater and later to Candleston Castle in Glamorgan Wales https://journals.library.wales/view/2527656/2908479/65#?xywh=-1590%2C-6%2C5225%2C3353 or to William de Cantilupe of England, the King's high steward, who died in 1239, is a mystery that I am hoping to solve.
I would not start from assuming any relationship - close or otherwise -
between the Robert who had donated to Saint-Georges de Boscherville
before (not in) 1114 as confirmed by Henry I and the Walter who had
donated to Sainte-Foy de Longueville before September 1155 when Henry II
issued his confirmation.
There are at least three different places in Normandy named with a
variant of the same toponym: Canteleu ca 7 kms west of the centre of
Rouen (probably the base of Robert occurring before 1114), Canteloup
near Luneray ca 60 kms north of Rouen, and another ca 24 kms south-east
of Caen (probably the origin of Walter occurring in 1155).
No connection has been documented between Walter and the Cantilupe
family in England, although this does seem likely. It is probably a
waste of time to search for some proof that may be undiscoverable.
Meanwhile I would urge you to disregard websites purporting to give
birthplaces for women such as Macelina de Bracy in 12th-century England.
The alleged link to Longueville in Jersey is no doubt an imaginary
name's-the-same misidentification of the manor there for Longueville in
Calvados, site of the Cluniac priory of Sainte-Foy to which Walter de
Canteleu donated.
Peter Stewart

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On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 6:25:10 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:

> Meanwhile I would urge you to disregard websites purporting to give
> birthplaces for women such as Macelina de Bracy in 12th-century England.

Oi! I have just been dealing with some online pedigrees that are giving precise birthdates amd places to women who are entirely unknown to history. They are nothing but placeholders representing the need for there to have been female involvement in human reproduction, yet someone managed to 'find' precise birth information for 'unknown concubine'.

taf

On 01-Jul-23 12:12 PM, taf wrote:
> On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 6:25:10 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
>
>> Meanwhile I would urge you to disregard websites purporting to give
>> birthplaces for women such as Macelina de Bracy in 12th-century England.
>
> Oi! I have just been dealing with some online pedigrees that are giving precise birthdates amd places to women who are entirely unknown to history. They are nothing but placeholders representing the need for there to have been female involvement in human reproduction, yet someone managed to 'find' precise birth information for 'unknown concubine'.

Finding evidence for birthplaces of high-born males in 12th-century
England is somewhat like neutrino astronomy as to definitive results -
for females it is more like trying to make observations of parallel
universes.

We know of proven birthplaces for two of Henry II's eight legitimate
children, very likely but not quite certain ones for three others and
none at all for the remaining three. Not even as vague as "Shropshire"
for the Bracy woman.

Peter Stewart

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On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 7:50:59 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
> Finding evidence for birthplaces of high-born males in 12th-century
> England is somewhat like neutrino astronomy as to definitive results -
> for females it is more like trying to make observations of parallel
> universes.
>
> We know of proven birthplaces for two of Henry II's eight legitimate
> children, very likely but not quite certain ones for three others and
> none at all for the remaining three. Not even as vague as "Shropshire"
> for the Bracy woman.

It is all monstrously frustrating, the need some feel to fill in every data field irrespective of whether the information is actually known or not.

The most outrageous one I remember coming across was a marriage place entered for Robert I of Normandy and Herleve. Someone had apparently entered 'not' in the marriage field to indicate they were never wed, and some monumental moron then decided this must refer to the village of Not, Graz-Umgebung, Styria, Austria.

taf

On 02-Jul-23 6:02 AM, taf wrote:
> On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 7:50:59 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> Finding evidence for birthplaces of high-born males in 12th-century
>> England is somewhat like neutrino astronomy as to definitive results -
>> for females it is more like trying to make observations of parallel
>> universes.
>>
>> We know of proven birthplaces for two of Henry II's eight legitimate
>> children, very likely but not quite certain ones for three others and
>> none at all for the remaining three. Not even as vague as "Shropshire"
>> for the Bracy woman.

I must apologise for misnumbering the legitimate children of Henry II -
there were nine, six sons and three daughters, so that there are four
for whom we have no birthplace recorded. The one I had forgotten was a
son who evidently died in infancy according to the count of six sons as
noted by Andrew Lewis in 2002: "As for his place in the family group,
John was his parents' youngest child, but not their fifth son: he was
the fifth whose name is recorded. Ralph of Diceto who, as dean of Saint
Paul's at London, was in a position to know, wrote that Henry II and
Eleanor had six sons, two who died in childhood and four who survived.
One of the former would have been the eldest son William (1153-56); the
other a son whom other contemporary writers did not mention and whose
existence modern historians have overlooked."

> It is all monstrously frustrating, the need some feel to fill in every data field irrespective of whether the information is actually known or not.
>
> The most outrageous one I remember coming across was a marriage place entered for Robert I of Normandy and Herleve. Someone had apparently entered 'not' in the marriage field to indicate they were never wed, and some monumental moron then decided this must refer to the village of Not, Graz-Umgebung, Styria, Austria.

The compulsion to fill in gaps is especially puzzling in medieval
genealogy, where unknown details must be admitted at some point in every
line of research anyway. Why put this off to an earlier generation by
adding nonsense, even as delightful as a wedding in Not?

Peter Stewart

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