Hello! I'm new here, so please be kind :) It seems most folks do U.K. research, which makes sense as it's an English language group.

I wonder if anyone does research in the late Middle Ages in the Holy Roman Empire, specifically Austria/ North Italy/Tyrol. Or knows of any such groups! Most of the available material in this region for the Early Modern era is in German. After many years of tracking down primary source documents, I'm moving into the late Medieval period with a couple lines.

What advice would you give a newcomer to this era of research? I'm disadvantaged in that I don't live near a good research library. What is your favorite strategy for finding primary source documents/good secondary sources?

As an example, I'm currently researching Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsburg. Born around 1500, died around 1556, the putative daughter of Eva von Freundsberg (Freuntsperg) and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, wife of Jakob Khuen von Belasy. I have a copy of the article, "The Tirolean Aristocracy in 1567" by M..A. Chisolm (2009, University of Minnesota) which claims Magdalena was the mother of 17 children, although it refers to her simply as "Magdalena Fuchs.." The work it cites, "Castel Belasi e i conti Khuen" by Mariano Turrini, (2005, Cles), is not available in my interlibrary loan. So, too, "I Gonzaga e l'impero : itinerari dello spettacolo" by Umberto Artiloli, 2005, which gives a description of the wedding of Magdalena's son, Rudolf, and his bride, Baronness von Pálffy.

Europäische Stammtafeln has a tree for the Freundsberg/Freuntsperg family, but since I haven't been able to get my hands on it, I'm not sure if it descends as far as Magdalena.

Meanwhile, "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis," Joannes Praetorius, 1602, lists the family tree in full, about 50 years after Magdalena's (putative) death, including her son Rudolf who became a councillor for the Imperial Privy Council for the Lower Austrian estates, not Tyrol like his forebears. But it's hardly a primary source and 1602 is now fully Early Modern: https://tinyurl.com/58bwesd7 .

Any thoughts or insights? I really appreciate your time!
Sincerely,
Maggie Brady

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 4:31:18 AM UTC+10, Maggie Brady wrote:
> Hello! I'm new here, so please be kind :) It seems most folks do U.K. research, which makes sense as it's an English language group.
>
> I wonder if anyone does research in the late Middle Ages in the Holy Roman Empire, specifically Austria/ North Italy/Tyrol. Or knows of any such groups! Most of the available material in this region for the Early Modern era is in German. After many years of tracking down primary source documents, I'm moving into the late Medieval period with a couple lines.
>
> What advice would you give a newcomer to this era of research? I'm disadvantaged in that I don't live near a good research library. What is your favorite strategy for finding primary source documents/good secondary sources?
>
> As an example, I'm currently researching Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsburg. Born around 1500, died around 1556, the putative daughter of Eva von Freundsberg (Freuntsperg) and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, wife of Jakob Khuen von Belasy. I have a copy of the article, "The Tirolean Aristocracy in 1567" by M.A. Chisolm (2009, University of Minnesota) which claims Magdalena was the mother of 17 children, although it refers to her simply as "Magdalena Fuchs." The work it cites, "Castel Belasi e i conti Khuen" by Mariano Turrini, (2005, Cles), is not available in my interlibrary loan. So, too, "I Gonzaga e l'impero : itinerari dello spettacolo" by Umberto Artiloli, 2005, which gives a description of the wedding of Magdalena's son, Rudolf, and his bride, Baronness von Pálffy.
>
> Europäische Stammtafeln has a tree for the Freundsberg/Freuntsperg family, but since I haven't been able to get my hands on it, I'm not sure if it descends as far as Magdalena.
>
> Meanwhile, "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis," Joannes Praetorius, 1602, lists the family tree in full, about 50 years after Magdalena's (putative) death, including her son Rudolf who became a councillor for the Imperial Privy Council for the Lower Austrian estates, not Tyrol like his forebears. But it's hardly a primary source and 1602 is now fully Early Modern: https://tinyurl.com/58bwesd7 .
>
> Any thoughts or insights? I really appreciate your time!
> Sincerely,
> Maggie Brady
The names mentioned are not in my data base. That means something is not right.
The only name in my data base is KHUEN DE BALASI (Barons of Balasi). WATCH THE SPELLING. "FREUNTSPERG" is not a German word.
BERG = MOUNTAIN; FREUNDSBERG = The Friends of the Mountain. The best places to look are: Vienna University and the Collective of Italian Genealogist (their published research is available to members only, so you must find a member to get access).

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 7:20:51 AM UTC+10, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 4:31:18 AM UTC+10, Maggie Brady wrote:
> > Hello! I'm new here, so please be kind :) It seems most folks do U.K. research, which makes sense as it's an English language group.
> >
> > I wonder if anyone does research in the late Middle Ages in the Holy Roman Empire, specifically Austria/ North Italy/Tyrol. Or knows of any such groups! Most of the available material in this region for the Early Modern era is in German. After many years of tracking down primary source documents, I'm moving into the late Medieval period with a couple lines.
> >
> > What advice would you give a newcomer to this era of research? I'm disadvantaged in that I don't live near a good research library. What is your favorite strategy for finding primary source documents/good secondary sources?
> >
> > As an example, I'm currently researching Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsburg. Born around 1500, died around 1556, the putative daughter of Eva von Freundsberg (Freuntsperg) and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, wife of Jakob Khuen von Belasy. I have a copy of the article, "The Tirolean Aristocracy in 1567" by M.A. Chisolm (2009, University of Minnesota) which claims Magdalena was the mother of 17 children, although it refers to her simply as "Magdalena Fuchs." The work it cites, "Castel Belasi e i conti Khuen" by Mariano Turrini, (2005, Cles), is not available in my interlibrary loan. So, too, "I Gonzaga e l'impero : itinerari dello spettacolo" by Umberto Artiloli, 2005, which gives a description of the wedding of Magdalena's son, Rudolf, and his bride, Baronness von Pálffy.
> >
> > Europäische Stammtafeln has a tree for the Freundsberg/Freuntsperg family, but since I haven't been able to get my hands on it, I'm not sure if it descends as far as Magdalena.
> >
> > Meanwhile, "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis," Joannes Praetorius, 1602, lists the family tree in full, about 50 years after Magdalena's (putative) death, including her son Rudolf who became a councillor for the Imperial Privy Council for the Lower Austrian estates, not Tyrol like his forebears. But it's hardly a primary source and 1602 is now fully Early Modern: https://tinyurl.com/58bwesd7 .
> >
> > Any thoughts or insights? I really appreciate your time!
> > Sincerely,
> > Maggie Brady
> The names mentioned are not in my data base. That means something is not right.
> The only name in my data base is KHUEN DE BALASI (Barons of Balasi). WATCH THE SPELLING. "FREUNTSPERG" is not a German word.
> BERG = MOUNTAIN; FREUNDSBERG = The Friends of the Mountain. The best places to look are: Vienna University and the Collective of Italian Genealogist (their published research is available to members only, so you must find a member to get access).
SORRY: DE BELASI (NOT DE BALASI)

On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 2:31:18 PM UTC-4, Maggie Brady wrote:
> Hello! I'm new here, so please be kind :) It seems most folks do U.K. research, which makes sense as it's an English language group.
>
> I wonder if anyone does research in the late Middle Ages in the Holy Roman Empire, specifically Austria/ North Italy/Tyrol. Or knows of any such groups! Most of the available material in this region for the Early Modern era is in German. After many years of tracking down primary source documents, I'm moving into the late Medieval period with a couple lines.
>
> What advice would you give a newcomer to this era of research? I'm disadvantaged in that I don't live near a good research library. What is your favorite strategy for finding primary source documents/good secondary sources?
>
> As an example, I'm currently researching Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsburg. Born around 1500, died around 1556, the putative daughter of Eva von Freundsberg (Freuntsperg) and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, wife of Jakob Khuen von Belasy. I have a copy of the article, "The Tirolean Aristocracy in 1567" by M.A. Chisolm (2009, University of Minnesota) which claims Magdalena was the mother of 17 children, although it refers to her simply as "Magdalena Fuchs." The work it cites, "Castel Belasi e i conti Khuen" by Mariano Turrini, (2005, Cles), is not available in my interlibrary loan. So, too, "I Gonzaga e l'impero : itinerari dello spettacolo" by Umberto Artiloli, 2005, which gives a description of the wedding of Magdalena's son, Rudolf, and his bride, Baronness von Pálffy.
>
> Europäische Stammtafeln has a tree for the Freundsberg/Freuntsperg family, but since I haven't been able to get my hands on it, I'm not sure if it descends as far as Magdalena.
>
> Meanwhile, "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis," Joannes Praetorius, 1602, lists the family tree in full, about 50 years after Magdalena's (putative) death, including her son Rudolf who became a councillor for the Imperial Privy Council for the Lower Austrian estates, not Tyrol like his forebears. But it's hardly a primary source and 1602 is now fully Early Modern: https://tinyurl.com/58bwesd7 .
>
roglo has some sources here that might be worth following up on:
http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=en;i=9303782

On 29-Jul-23 4:31 AM, Maggie Brady wrote:
> Hello! I'm new here, so please be kind :) It seems most folks do U.K. research, which makes sense as it's an English language group.
>
> I wonder if anyone does research in the late Middle Ages in the Holy Roman Empire, specifically Austria/ North Italy/Tyrol. Or knows of any such groups! Most of the available material in this region for the Early Modern era is in German. After many years of tracking down primary source documents, I'm moving into the late Medieval period with a couple lines.
>
> What advice would you give a newcomer to this era of research? I'm disadvantaged in that I don't live near a good research library. What is your favorite strategy for finding primary source documents/good secondary sources?
>
> As an example, I'm currently researching Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsburg. Born around 1500, died around 1556, the putative daughter of Eva von Freundsberg (Freuntsperg) and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, wife of Jakob Khuen von Belasy. I have a copy of the article, "The Tirolean Aristocracy in 1567" by M.A. Chisolm (2009, University of Minnesota) which claims Magdalena was the mother of 17 children, although it refers to her simply as "Magdalena Fuchs." The work it cites, "Castel Belasi e i conti Khuen" by Mariano Turrini, (2005, Cles), is not available in my interlibrary loan. So, too, "I Gonzaga e l'impero : itinerari dello spettacolo" by Umberto Artiloli, 2005, which gives a description of the wedding of Magdalena's son, Rudolf, and his bride, Baronness von Pálffy.
>
> Europäische Stammtafeln has a tree for the Freundsberg/Freuntsperg family, but since I haven't been able to get my hands on it, I'm not sure if it descends as far as Magdalena.
>
> Meanwhile, "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis," Joannes Praetorius, 1602, lists the family tree in full, about 50 years after Magdalena's (putative) death, including her son Rudolf who became a councillor for the Imperial Privy Council for the Lower Austrian estates, not Tyrol like his forebears. But it's hardly a primary source and 1602 is now fully Early Modern: https://tinyurl.com/58bwesd7 .
>
> Any thoughts or insights? I really appreciate your time!

In this forum, disregard capitalised comments about spelling and
nonsense such as "FREUNDSBERG = The Friends of the Mountain" (as you
probably know it literally means the obverse, friend's mountain).

A worthwhile starting point in print would be *Genealogisch-heraldisches
Adelslexikon von Tirol und Vorarlberg*, edited by Olaf Stanger, 2 vols,
Schlern-Schriften Bd. 364 (Innsbruck, Universitätsverlag Wagner, 2015).
This contains the cumulative work of Joseph Resch (died 1782), Stephan
von Mayrhofen (died 1848) and Joseph Sebastian Kögl (died 1856).
Mayrhofen's work has been a standard authority since the late 18th
century (vol. 3 of this in manuscript is the first citation given for
the Fuchs family in the article you cited by Chisholm, p. 19 note 44).
Kögl was prevented from publishing his augmentation by some touchy
aristocrats who did not like the results, which is usually a good
indicator for veracity or at least for integrity in pursuit of it.

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 4:31:18 AM UTC+10, Maggie Brady wrote:
> Hello! I'm new here, so please be kind :) It seems most folks do U.K. research, which makes sense as it's an English language group.
>
> I wonder if anyone does research in the late Middle Ages in the Holy Roman Empire, specifically Austria/ North Italy/Tyrol. Or knows of any such groups! Most of the available material in this region for the Early Modern era is in German. After many years of tracking down primary source documents, I'm moving into the late Medieval period with a couple lines.
>
> What advice would you give a newcomer to this era of research? I'm disadvantaged in that I don't live near a good research library. What is your favorite strategy for finding primary source documents/good secondary sources?
>
> As an example, I'm currently researching Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsburg. Born around 1500, died around 1556, the putative daughter of Eva von Freundsberg (Freuntsperg) and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, wife of Jakob Khuen von Belasy. I have a copy of the article, "The Tirolean Aristocracy in 1567" by M.A. Chisolm (2009, University of Minnesota) which claims Magdalena was the mother of 17 children, although it refers to her simply as "Magdalena Fuchs." The work it cites, "Castel Belasi e i conti Khuen" by Mariano Turrini, (2005, Cles), is not available in my interlibrary loan. So, too, "I Gonzaga e l'impero : itinerari dello spettacolo" by Umberto Artiloli, 2005, which gives a description of the wedding of Magdalena's son, Rudolf, and his bride, Baronness von Pálffy.
>
> Europäische Stammtafeln has a tree for the Freundsberg/Freuntsperg family, but since I haven't been able to get my hands on it, I'm not sure if it descends as far as Magdalena.
>
> Meanwhile, "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis," Joannes Praetorius, 1602, lists the family tree in full, about 50 years after Magdalena's (putative) death, including her son Rudolf who became a councillor for the Imperial Privy Council for the Lower Austrian estates, not Tyrol like his forebears. But it's hardly a primary source and 1602 is now fully Early Modern: https://tinyurl.com/58bwesd7 .
>
> Any thoughts or insights? I really appreciate your time!
> Sincerely,
> Maggie Brady
Accidently I did come across two name variation of "De Belasi". From Middle Italy BELLACCI; From Southern Italy (Monte Leone) two women have/use the name BELLACERA, one has the title Princess of MonteLeone.

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:28:56 PM UTC+10, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 4:31:18 AM UTC+10, Maggie Brady wrote:
> > Hello! I'm new here, so please be kind :) It seems most folks do U.K. research, which makes sense as it's an English language group.
> >
> > I wonder if anyone does research in the late Middle Ages in the Holy Roman Empire, specifically Austria/ North Italy/Tyrol. Or knows of any such groups! Most of the available material in this region for the Early Modern era is in German. After many years of tracking down primary source documents, I'm moving into the late Medieval period with a couple lines.
> >
> > What advice would you give a newcomer to this era of research? I'm disadvantaged in that I don't live near a good research library. What is your favorite strategy for finding primary source documents/good secondary sources?
> >
> > As an example, I'm currently researching Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsburg. Born around 1500, died around 1556, the putative daughter of Eva von Freundsberg (Freuntsperg) and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, wife of Jakob Khuen von Belasy. I have a copy of the article, "The Tirolean Aristocracy in 1567" by M.A. Chisolm (2009, University of Minnesota) which claims Magdalena was the mother of 17 children, although it refers to her simply as "Magdalena Fuchs." The work it cites, "Castel Belasi e i conti Khuen" by Mariano Turrini, (2005, Cles), is not available in my interlibrary loan. So, too, "I Gonzaga e l'impero : itinerari dello spettacolo" by Umberto Artiloli, 2005, which gives a description of the wedding of Magdalena's son, Rudolf, and his bride, Baronness von Pálffy.
> >
> > Europäische Stammtafeln has a tree for the Freundsberg/Freuntsperg family, but since I haven't been able to get my hands on it, I'm not sure if it descends as far as Magdalena.
> >
> > Meanwhile, "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis," Joannes Praetorius, 1602, lists the family tree in full, about 50 years after Magdalena's (putative) death, including her son Rudolf who became a councillor for the Imperial Privy Council for the Lower Austrian estates, not Tyrol like his forebears. But it's hardly a primary source and 1602 is now fully Early Modern: https://tinyurl.com/58bwesd7 .
> >
> > Any thoughts or insights? I really appreciate your time!
> > Sincerely,
> > Maggie Brady
> Accidently I did come across two name variation of "De Belasi". From Middle Italy BELLACCI; From Southern Italy (Monte Leone) two women have/use the name BELLACERA, one has the title Princess of MonteLeone.

A bit more: It appears, "Freundsberg" maybe incorrectly spelled.It appears, the correct spelling may be "zu Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg". That's a family that exists today and member of the family use just the name Freudenberg. There should be some info and references in a book called "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, "Fürstliche Häuser".

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I'm glad to have some new avenues to go down.

I do want to point out a personal erratum in my initial post, to aid future searchers. "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis" confirms the marriage of Eva von Frendsberg and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, but it actually claims she died without children! This is unlikely to be accurate, since most historians record as their son, Christoph, captain of Kufstein, later a priest and finally prince-bishop of Brixen. But regardless, Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsberg and her offspring with Khuen von Belasy are definitely not mentioned in this text. My apologies! Humility moment.

I *had* been thinking of "Annales Ferdinandei," published 1640, by Franz Christoph von Khevenhüller. The author himself comes from an old (and still extant!) Austrian family. Later volumes were published posthumously. From what I've seen it is well regarded by historians as a record of the 17th century, but for earlier genealogical purposes, still not a primary source.. https://tinyurl.com/y9xht9j6

Thanks again!

On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 11:26:46 PM UTC-4, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:28:56 PM UTC+10, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 4:31:18 AM UTC+10, Maggie Brady wrote:
> > > Hello! I'm new here, so please be kind :) It seems most folks do U.K. research, which makes sense as it's an English language group.
> > >
> > > I wonder if anyone does research in the late Middle Ages in the Holy Roman Empire, specifically Austria/ North Italy/Tyrol. Or knows of any such groups! Most of the available material in this region for the Early Modern era is in German. After many years of tracking down primary source documents, I'm moving into the late Medieval period with a couple lines.
> > >
> > > What advice would you give a newcomer to this era of research? I'm disadvantaged in that I don't live near a good research library. What is your favorite strategy for finding primary source documents/good secondary sources?
> > >
> > > As an example, I'm currently researching Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsburg. Born around 1500, died around 1556, the putative daughter of Eva von Freundsberg (Freuntsperg) and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, wife of Jakob Khuen von Belasy. I have a copy of the article, "The Tirolean Aristocracy in 1567" by M.A. Chisolm (2009, University of Minnesota) which claims Magdalena was the mother of 17 children, although it refers to her simply as "Magdalena Fuchs." The work it cites, "Castel Belasi e i conti Khuen" by Mariano Turrini, (2005, Cles), is not available in my interlibrary loan. So, too, "I Gonzaga e l'impero : itinerari dello spettacolo" by Umberto Artiloli, 2005, which gives a description of the wedding of Magdalena's son, Rudolf, and his bride, Baronness von Pálffy.
> > >
> > > Europäische Stammtafeln has a tree for the Freundsberg/Freuntsperg family, but since I haven't been able to get my hands on it, I'm not sure if it descends as far as Magdalena.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis," Joannes Praetorius, 1602, lists the family tree in full, about 50 years after Magdalena's (putative) death, including her son Rudolf who became a councillor for the Imperial Privy Council for the Lower Austrian estates, not Tyrol like his forebears. But it's hardly a primary source and 1602 is now fully Early Modern: https://tinyurl.com/58bwesd7 .
> > >
> > > Any thoughts or insights? I really appreciate your time!
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Maggie Brady
> > Accidently I did come across two name variation of "De Belasi". From Middle Italy BELLACCI; From Southern Italy (Monte Leone) two women have/use the name BELLACERA, one has the title Princess of MonteLeone.
> A bit more: It appears, "Freundsberg" maybe incorrectly spelled.It appears, the correct spelling may be "zu Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg". That's a family that exists today and member of the family use just the name Freudenberg. There should be some info and references in a book called "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, "Fürstliche Häuser".

George, earlier you mentioned that you have been an avid medieval genealogy researcher since 1955. I know you have been in this group for some 25+ years. And later (above) you posted that you didn't believe someone else's research because the individuals didn't already appear in your personal database.
Now you are posting that a name from the 16th century may be "incorrectly spelled" because there is someone alive today--500 years later--who has a similar name. But not terribly similar at all "Freund" and "Freuden" are "Friend" and "Joy"...

I want to say this as sincerely as possible...I hope everything is OK. If its me, I apologize, but I am worried about you
--Joe C

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 1:41:22 PM UTC+10, Maggie Brady wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for your responses. I'm glad to have some new avenues to go down.
>
> I do want to point out a personal erratum in my initial post, to aid future searchers. "Causae hereditatis Georgii de Freundsberg baronis" confirms the marriage of Eva von Frendsberg and Degan Fuchs von Fuchsberg, but it actually claims she died without children! This is unlikely to be accurate, since most historians record as their son, Christoph, captain of Kufstein, later a priest and finally prince-bishop of Brixen. But regardless, Magdalena Fuchs von Fuchsberg and her offspring with Khuen von Belasy are definitely not mentioned in this text. My apologies! Humility moment.
>
> I *had* been thinking of "Annales Ferdinandei," published 1640, by Franz Christoph von Khevenhüller. The author himself comes from an old (and still extant!) Austrian family. Later volumes were published posthumously. From what I've seen it is well regarded by historians as a record of the 17th century, but for earlier genealogical purposes, still not a primary source. https://tinyurl.com/y9xht9j6
>
> Thanks again!
I am aware of the book. The author's family was well established and connected around Vienna, Austria. He was well connected with other many other noble families. That's why I mentioned the Vienna University.