Dear Group: I do believe there is a link to Antiquity through the wife of Philip of Swabia. He married an Irene Tornika. She was descended from a Tornik whose descendants ended up in Byzantium and the Tornik family descend from the Bagratids, Mamikonians etc. Don Stone has an excellent publication on this topic.
regards:
Loren

On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:19:50 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
> Dear Group: I do believe there is a link to Antiquity through the wife of Philip of Swabia. He married an Irene Tornika. She was descended from a Tornik whose descendants ended up in Byzantium and the Tornik family descend from the Bagratids, Mamikonians etc. Don Stone has an excellent publication on this topic.
> regards:
> Loren
I should have said that it was the mother of the wife of Philip who was the Tornika and she was the wife of Isaac Angelos.

On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 6:24:01 AM UTC-7, Loren Varga wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:19:50 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
> > Dear Group: I do believe there is a link to Antiquity through the wife of Philip of Swabia. He married an Irene Tornika. She was descended from a Tornik whose descendants ended up in Byzantium and the Tornik family descend from the Bagratids, Mamikonians etc. Don Stone has an excellent publication on this topic.
> > regards:
> > Loren
> I should have said that it was the mother of the wife of Philip who was the Tornika and she was the wife of Isaac Angelos.

"Irene was born in Constantinople, the second daughter of Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelos and his first wife, quite possibly an unknown Palaiologina with a non-Greek mother, who became a nun with the name Irene"

On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 2:28:19 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 6:24:01 AM UTC-7, Loren Varga wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:19:50 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
> > > Dear Group: I do believe there is a link to Antiquity through the wife of Philip of Swabia. He married an Irene Tornika. She was descended from a Tornik whose descendants ended up in Byzantium and the Tornik family descend from the Bagratids, Mamikonians etc. Don Stone has an excellent publication on this topic.
> > > regards:
> > > Loren
> > I should have said that it was the mother of the wife of Philip who was the Tornika and she was the wife of Isaac Angelos.
> "Irene was born in Constantinople, the second daughter of Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelos and his first wife, quite possibly an unknown Palaiologina with a non-Greek mother, who became a nun with the name Irene"

From Isaac's page we get a longer statement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_II_Angelos

"Isaac II's first wife's name, Herina (i.e., Irene), is found on the necrology of Speyer Cathedral, where their daughter Irene is interred.[18] The first wife of Isaac II is usually considered to be a Byzantine noblewoman of unknown name. In an Italian edition of the chronicle of Nicetas Choniates "Greatness and catastrophe of Byzantium" can be found an interesting note to the XIV Book. The names of Isaac II's first wife and eldest daughter, unknown from Byzantine sources, are found in an obituary in the Cathedral of Speyer, the pantheon of German kings. Here, the wife of Philip of Swabia is said to be the daughter of Isaac and Irene (there is reference to the following article: R. Hiestand, Die erste Ehe Isaaks II. Angelos und seine Kinder, in Jahrbuch der Osterreichischen Byzantinisk, XLVII 1997 pp. 199–208). This Irene could be identified with the daughter of George Paleologus Ducas Comnenus and wife Aspae, Bagratiid Princess of Ossetia; the son of this one, Andronicus Paleologus Comnenoducas is known as gambrox (gamma alpha mu beta rho o x) of Isaac II. Isaac's wife was possibly daughter of Andronikos I Komnenos, Byzantine Emperor (died 1185). A potential foreign origin is also given to her due to having the same name as her daughter, contrary to long-standing Greek custom. "

On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:24:01 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:19:50 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
> > Dear Group: I do believe there is a link to Antiquity through the wife of Philip of Swabia. He married an Irene Tornika. She was descended from a Tornik whose descendants ended up in Byzantium and the Tornik family descend from the Bagratids, Mamikonians etc. Don Stone has an excellent publication on this topic.
> > regards:
> > Loren
> I should have said that it was the mother of the wife of Philip who was the Tornika and she was the wife of Isaac Angelos.

Loren is referring to the 2011 paper in Foundations (the journal of the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) by me and Chuck Owens, accessible at https://fmg.ac/publications/journal/volume-3/category/57-fnd-3-5. (The paper is on pp. 349-390.)

Chuck and I took literally the description (in the records of the monastery of Patmos) of Konstantinos Tornikes as uncle (theios) of Emp. Alexios IV Angelos. However, some have said that theios should not necessarily be interpreted literally.

-- Don Stone

On 26-Jul-23 7:53 AM, Don Stone wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:24:01 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:19:50 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
>>> Dear Group: I do believe there is a link to Antiquity through the wife of Philip of Swabia. He married an Irene Tornika. She was descended from a Tornik whose descendants ended up in Byzantium and the Tornik family descend from the Bagratids, Mamikonians etc. Don Stone has an excellent publication on this topic.
>>> regards:
>>> Loren
>> I should have said that it was the mother of the wife of Philip who was the Tornika and she was the wife of Isaac Angelos.
>
> Loren is referring to the 2011 paper in Foundations (the journal of the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) by me and Chuck Owens, accessible at https://fmg.ac/publications/journal/volume-3/category/57-fnd-3-5. (The paper is on pp. 349-390.)
>
> Chuck and I took literally the description (in the records of the monastery of Patmos) of Konstantinos Tornikes as uncle (theios) of Emp. Alexios IV Angelos. However, some have said that theios should not necessarily be interpreted literally.

I think your literal reading of 'theios' is the most reasonable
interpretation - it may be worth adding that the line reference given in
your citation (14-15) is to the manuscript, not to the edition (where
the relevant text occurs on lines 3-4 pf p. 131).

Peter Stewart

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On 26-Jul-23 10:44 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 26-Jul-23 7:53 AM, Don Stone wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:24:01 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:19:50 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
>>>> Dear Group: I do believe there is a link to Antiquity through the
>>>> wife of Philip of Swabia. He married an Irene Tornika. She was
>>>> descended from a Tornik whose descendants ended up in Byzantium and
>>>> the Tornik family descend from the Bagratids, Mamikonians etc. Don
>>>> Stone has an excellent publication on this topic.
>>>> regards:
>>>> Loren
>>> I should have said that it was the mother of the wife of Philip who
>>> was the Tornika and she was the wife of Isaac Angelos.
>>
>> Loren is referring to the 2011 paper in Foundations (the journal of
>> the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) by me and Chuck Owens,
>> accessible at
>> https://fmg.ac/publications/journal/volume-3/category/57-fnd-3-5.
>> (The paper is on pp. 349-390.)
>>
>> Chuck and I took literally the description (in the records of the
>> monastery of Patmos) of Konstantinos Tornikes as uncle (theios) of
>> Emp. Alexios IV Angelos.  However, some have said that theios should
>> not necessarily be interpreted literally.
>
> I think your literal reading of 'theios' is the most reasonable
> interpretation - it may be worth adding that the line reference given in
> your citation (14-15) is to the manuscript, not to the edition (where
> the relevant text occurs on lines 3-4 pf p. 131).

Also in your quotation of this the letter κ (kappa) has been changed
into χ (chi) - anyone copying this should prefer

πανσε(βάστου) θείου τοῦ κρατ(αιοῦ) καὶ ἁγ(ίου) ἡμῶν β(ασι)λ(έως) καὶ
λογοθ(έ)τ(ου) τοῦ δρόμ(ου) κῦρ Κω(νσταντίνου) τοῦ Τορν(ίκη).

The document is dated in December indiction 7 (μηνὶ Δεκε(μβ)ρ(ίω)
(ἰνδικτιῶνος) ζ'), which as the editor explained must be 1203.

Peter Stewart

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Hi Peter,

Thank you so much for pointing out these corrections. Our cited source (E. Branouse & M. Nystazopoulou-Pelekidou, Βυζαντινὰ ἔγγραφα τῆς μονῆς Πάτμου (Vyzantina engrapha tēs Monēs Patmou) (1980), 2.131.3-4 (lines 14-15 in manuscript) showed the χ (chi) instead of the κ (kappa) in the text for the Greek words καὶ, κρατ(αιοῦ), and κῦρ.

And yes, the literal interpretation of theios seems to best fit the data found so far. Also, it is worth mentioning that even in the more distant relationships where theios was used, the relationships were by blood such as son of an uncle was theios to son of a nephew.

Chuck

On 26-Jul-23 9:25 PM, Charles Owens wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> Thank you so much for pointing out these corrections. Our cited source (E. Branouse & M. Nystazopoulou-Pelekidou, Βυζαντινὰ ἔγγραφα τῆς μονῆς Πάτμου (Vyzantina engrapha tēs Monēs Patmou) (1980), 2.131.3-4 (lines 14-15 in manuscript) showed the χ (chi) instead of the κ (kappa) in the text for the Greek words καὶ, κρατ(αιοῦ), and κῦρ.

It's not χ in the edition but ϰ, that is a typographic variant of κ.

> And yes, the literal interpretation of theios seems to best fit the data found so far. Also, it is worth mentioning that even in the more distant relationships where theios was used, the relationships were by blood such as son of an uncle was theios to son of a nephew.

Jean Darrouzès was cited by the editor as implying that the uncle
relationship to Alexios IV may have come about through a presumed
Komnene wife of Konstantinos Tornikes, but this is hardly a satisfactory
explanation - apart from the stretch of sense, the basis for it is only
that his son Demetrios was surnamed Tornikes Komnenos by Georgios
Akropolites. However, at this time adding or adopting a highly
prestigious surname cannot be taken as a definite indicator of a
mother's family rather than some other connection.

Peter Stewart

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On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 11:24:01 PM UTC+10, Loren Varga wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:19:50 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
> > Dear Group: I do believe there is a link to Antiquity through the wife of Philip of Swabia. He married an Irene Tornika. She was descended from a Tornik whose descendants ended up in Byzantium and the Tornik family descend from the Bagratids, Mamikonians etc. Don Stone has an excellent publication on this topic.
> > regards:
> > Loren
> I should have said that it was the mother of the wife of Philip who was the Tornika and she was the wife of Isaac Angelos.
Irene Tornikios (died 1185) was the 1st wife of Isaak II, Angelos. She was the daughter of Demitrios and a daughter (first name unknown) Mallakis. She had 3 brothers Kostas, Euthymios and George, With Isaak she had two daughters Irene and Eufrosyne ( a Nun) and a son Alexios IV. After her death, Isaak married Margarita ARPAD (daughter of Bella III) and had a further 4 children 3 sons Emmanuel, Andronikos and Ioannis and a daughter Angela. The rest is History.

Hi Peter,

"It's not χ in the edition but ϰ, that is a typographic variant of κ."

Thank you so much for pointing that out. I didn't realize that kappa could be written out also as ϰ.

"Jean Darrouzès was cited by the editor as implying that the uncle relationship to Alexios IV may have come about through a presumed Komnene wife of Konstantinos Tornikes, but this is hardly a satisfactory
explanation - apart from the stretch of sense, the basis for it is only that his son Demetrios was surnamed Tornikes Komnenos by Georgios Akropolites. However, at this time adding or adopting a highly prestigious surname cannot be taken as a definite indicator of a mother's family rather than some other connection."

There is actually a far more compelling reason for drawing the conclusion that Konstantinos' wife was a Komnene. Namely, Euthymios Tornikes, her brother-in-law, mentioned her descent from the Komnenoi. See Darrouzès, “Les discours d’Euthyme Tornikes,” Revue des Études Byzantines 26 (1968): 92, 108 (https://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_0766-5598_1968_num_26_1_1400). But I agree that it's a stretch for the theios relationship to be through her marriage to Konstantinos Tornikes. Typically the more distant theios relationships were by blood not marriage. For example, Emperor Manuel I was the theios of Emperor Isaakios II in the extended sense.

Chuck

On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 10:55:42 AM UTC+10, Charles Owens wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> "It's not χ in the edition but ϰ, that is a typographic variant of κ."
> Thank you so much for pointing that out. I didn't realize that kappa could be written out also as ϰ.
> "Jean Darrouzès was cited by the editor as implying that the uncle relationship to Alexios IV may have come about through a presumed Komnene wife of Konstantinos Tornikes, but this is hardly a satisfactory
> explanation - apart from the stretch of sense, the basis for it is only that his son Demetrios was surnamed Tornikes Komnenos by Georgios Akropolites. However, at this time adding or adopting a highly prestigious surname cannot be taken as a definite indicator of a mother's family rather than some other connection."
> There is actually a far more compelling reason for drawing the conclusion that Konstantinos' wife was a Komnene. Namely, Euthymios Tornikes, her brother-in-law, mentioned her descent from the Komnenoi. See Darrouzès, “Les discours d’Euthyme Tornikes,” Revue des Études Byzantines 26 (1968): 92, 108 (https://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_0766-5598_1968_num_26_1_1400). But I agree that it's a stretch for the theios relationship to be through her marriage to Konstantinos Tornikes. Typically the more distant theios relationships were by blood not marriage. For example, Emperor Manuel I was the theios of Emperor Isaakios II in the extended sense.
>
> Chuck
The lady you are talking was an Illegitimate daughter of Emmanuel I (Megas) Komninos, out of unknown mistress. Emmanuel had two illegitimate daughters with that Mistress. The one married the General Theodoros Mavrozoumis and the other married Konstantinos Tornikios a "Logios". Emmanuel had Two Wives, Two De-Facto Wives and at least one Mistress. Five Illegitimate Children.

On 27-Jul-23 10:55 AM, Charles Owens wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> "It's not χ in the edition but ϰ, that is a typographic variant of κ."
>
> Thank you so much for pointing that out. I didn't realize that kappa could be written out also as ϰ.
>
> "Jean Darrouzès was cited by the editor as implying that the uncle relationship to Alexios IV may have come about through a presumed Komnene wife of Konstantinos Tornikes, but this is hardly a satisfactory
> explanation - apart from the stretch of sense, the basis for it is only that his son Demetrios was surnamed Tornikes Komnenos by Georgios Akropolites. However, at this time adding or adopting a highly prestigious surname cannot be taken as a definite indicator of a mother's family rather than some other connection."
>
> There is actually a far more compelling reason for drawing the conclusion that Konstantinos' wife was a Komnene. Namely, Euthymios Tornikes, her brother-in-law, mentioned her descent from the Komnenoi. See Darrouzès, “Les discours d’Euthyme Tornikes,” Revue des Études Byzantines 26 (1968): 92, 108 (https://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_0766-5598_1968_num_26_1_1400). But I agree that it's a stretch for the theios relationship to be through her marriage to Konstantinos Tornikes. Typically the more distant theios relationships were by blood not marriage. For example, Emperor Manuel I was the theios of Emperor Isaakios II in the extended sense.

The translation given by Darrouzès on p. 92 ("première branche d'or des
Comnènes") is plainly inadequate - the phrase on p. 108 ("πρώτης και
βασιλικῆς τῶν Κομνηνῶν χρυσέας σειρᾶς") means literally "first and
imperial Komnenos golden cord". I don't see this as compelling evidence
that her surname was Komnene, as Darrouzès thought - they had plenty of
descendants with other surnames, such as Isaakios II Angelos himself
through his paternal grandmother Theodora Komnene.

Peter Stewart

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On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 10:27:05 AM UTC+10, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 27-Jul-23 10:55 AM, Charles Owens wrote:
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > "It's not χ in the edition but ϰ, that is a typographic variant of κ."
> >
> > Thank you so much for pointing that out. I didn't realize that kappa could be written out also as ϰ.
> >
> > "Jean Darrouzès was cited by the editor as implying that the uncle relationship to Alexios IV may have come about through a presumed Komnene wife of Konstantinos Tornikes, but this is hardly a satisfactory
> > explanation - apart from the stretch of sense, the basis for it is only that his son Demetrios was surnamed Tornikes Komnenos by Georgios Akropolites. However, at this time adding or adopting a highly prestigious surname cannot be taken as a definite indicator of a mother's family rather than some other connection."
> >
> > There is actually a far more compelling reason for drawing the conclusion that Konstantinos' wife was a Komnene. Namely, Euthymios Tornikes, her brother-in-law, mentioned her descent from the Komnenoi. See Darrouzès, “Les discours d’Euthyme Tornikes,” Revue des Études Byzantines 26 (1968): 92, 108 (https://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_0766-5598_1968_num_26_1_1400). But I agree that it's a stretch for the theios relationship to be through her marriage to Konstantinos Tornikes. Typically the more distant theios relationships were by blood not marriage. For example, Emperor Manuel I was the theios of Emperor Isaakios II in the extended sense.
> The translation given by Darrouzès on p. 92 ("première branche d'or des
> Comnènes") is plainly inadequate - the phrase on p. 108 ("πρώτης και
> βασιλικῆς τῶν Κομνηνῶν χρυσέας σειρᾶς") means literally "first and
> imperial Komnenos golden cord". I don't see this as compelling evidence
> that her surname was Komnene, as Darrouzès thought - they had plenty of
> descendants with other surnames, such as Isaakios II Angelos himself
> through his paternal grandmother Theodora Komnene.
> Peter Stewart
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

The name Komninos was introduced by his father (Erotikos) the sone of Isaak of Komne. The name was introduced and used after his marriage with Helena of Bulgaria. That is well documented and accepted by all historians:

"Byzantine historian Michael Psellos reported that the Komnenos family originated from the village of Komne in Thrace—usually identified with the "Fields of Komnene" (Κομνηνῆς λειμῶνας) mentioned in the 14th century by John Kantakouzenos—a view commonly accepted by modern scholarship. The first known member of the family, Manuel Erotikos Komnenos, acquired extensive estates at Kastamon in Paphlagonia etc etc.

"I don't see this as compelling evidence that her surname was Komnene, as Darrouzès thought - they had plenty of descendants with other surnames, such as Isaakios II Angelos himself through his paternal grandmother Theodora Komnene."

A valid point...The evidence suggests only that she was descended from the Komnenoi, not that her surname was necessarily Komnene.

Chuck

On 27-Jul-23 7:58 AM, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 11:24:01 PM UTC+10, Loren Varga wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 9:19:50 AM UTC-4, Loren Varga wrote:
>>> Dear Group: I do believe there is a link to Antiquity through the wife of Philip of Swabia. He married an Irene Tornika. She was descended from a Tornik whose descendants ended up in Byzantium and the Tornik family descend from the Bagratids, Mamikonians etc. Don Stone has an excellent publication on this topic.
>>> regards:
>>> Loren
>> I should have said that it was the mother of the wife of Philip who was the Tornika and she was the wife of Isaac Angelos.
> Irene Tornikios (died 1185) was the 1st wife of Isaak II, Angelos. She was the daughter of Demitrios and a daughter (first name unknown) Mallakis. She had 3 brothers Kostas, Euthymios and George, With Isaak she had two daughters Irene and Eufrosyne ( a Nun) and a son Alexios IV. After her death, Isaak married Margarita ARPAD (daughter of Bella III) and had a further 4 children 3 sons Emmanuel, Andronikos and Ioannis and a daughter Angela. The rest is History.

Where do you find the attribution of a son named Andronikos to Isaak II
Angelos?

Peter Stewart

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On 27-Jul-23 11:26 AM, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 10:55:42 AM UTC+10, Charles Owens wrote:
>> Hi Peter,
>> "It's not χ in the edition but ϰ, that is a typographic variant of κ."
>> Thank you so much for pointing that out. I didn't realize that kappa could be written out also as ϰ.
>> "Jean Darrouzès was cited by the editor as implying that the uncle relationship to Alexios IV may have come about through a presumed Komnene wife of Konstantinos Tornikes, but this is hardly a satisfactory
>> explanation - apart from the stretch of sense, the basis for it is only that his son Demetrios was surnamed Tornikes Komnenos by Georgios Akropolites. However, at this time adding or adopting a highly prestigious surname cannot be taken as a definite indicator of a mother's family rather than some other connection."
>> There is actually a far more compelling reason for drawing the conclusion that Konstantinos' wife was a Komnene. Namely, Euthymios Tornikes, her brother-in-law, mentioned her descent from the Komnenoi. See Darrouzès, “Les discours d’Euthyme Tornikes,” Revue des Études Byzantines 26 (1968): 92, 108 (https://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_0766-5598_1968_num_26_1_1400). But I agree that it's a stretch for the theios relationship to be through her marriage to Konstantinos Tornikes. Typically the more distant theios relationships were by blood not marriage. For example, Emperor Manuel I was the theios of Emperor Isaakios II in the extended sense.
>>
>> Chuck
> The lady you are talking was an Illegitimate daughter of Emmanuel I (Megas) Komninos, out of unknown mistress. Emmanuel had two illegitimate daughters with that Mistress. The one married the General Theodoros Mavrozoumis and the other married Konstantinos Tornikios a "Logios". Emmanuel had Two Wives, Two De-Facto Wives and at least one Mistress. Five Illegitimate Children.

Presumably you mean Manuel I (emperor, died 1180), not Megas Komnenos
Manuel I (of Trebizond, died 1263). The latter had three wives and
obviously lived well after Theodoros Maurozomes.

It would be helpful - not least to yourself - if you took the time and
trouble to test information against reality before posting it.

Peter Stewart

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On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 9:13:57 PM UTC+10, Charles Owens wrote:
> "I don't see this as compelling evidence that her surname was Komnene, as Darrouzès thought - they had plenty of descendants with other surnames, such as Isaakios II Angelos himself through his paternal grandmother Theodora Komnene."
> A valid point...The evidence suggests only that she was descended from the Komnenoi, not that her surname was necessarily Komnene.
>
> Chuck
Exactly. Originally there was no reference to her "father" as she was an illegitimate child (if she was a Komninos illegitimate child). Her mother's name has never been mentioned. The name Komninos was added the last century or so.