As Demetrios Polemis wrote (in *The Doukai*, p. 48) it was "extremely
unusual for children in Byzantium to be named after living parents". I
would go further, suggesting that it was so rare by the 11th century as
to be perhaps unexampled - at least in imperial circles - from then on.

One of the few instances sometimes put forward to disprove this, the
case Polemis was considering, is that of the porphyrogennetos
Konstantios Doukas whose father was Konstantinos X. Their names
generationally reversed those of Constantine the Great and his father
Constantius Chlorus. Although Konstantinos is a diminutive form of
Konstantios, these names are plainly not identical. It is especially
notable that they are the names of two different saints in the Orthodox
calendar, Constantius of Perugia (died ca 170, feast day 29 January) and
Constantine the Great himself (died 337, feast day 21 May).

The celebration of a person's name day, the feast of the saint whose
name the individual shared, may have been the basis of the custom of
giving every child a name different from that of his or her parent -
effectively expanding the saintly patronage of every household by
increasing the name days celebrated within the nuclear family.

In the rare case of a child that was not yet named when the same-gender
parent (most often the father) died this reason for variation would no
longer apply. I suspect that was the circumstance for Eirene Maria
Angelina, whose mother also named Eirene may have died giving birth to her.

Historians have usually placed the birth of Eirene Maria ca 1180, before
that of her brother Alexios IV in 1182/83 so that their mother must have
survived her birth and her naming. But there is no specific evidence for
this order of birth, and in my view there is some to contradict it.

It is clearly established from contemporary sources that Eirene Maria
was named Eirene from her infancy. This name is given for her in Greek
by Niketas Choniates, who knew her father, and in Latinised forms
(Erina, Herina, etc) by several independent western sources from her
lifetime, including a charter of her second husband Philipp as duke of
Swabia (of which the original is extant in the Czech national museum,
see here https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_dd_phil/index.htm#page/27/mode/1up).

As Eirene, not yet also named Maria, she was married first in the late
summer of 1192 to Roger III, associate king of Naples & Sicily, son of
King Tancred. The dating of this marriage has led some historians to
suppose that the bride must have reached 12 years of age at the time and
consequently was born ca 1180. There has been debate about whether she
was actually married to Roger or only betrothed to him. However, in the
gesta of Innocent III, written in Italy ca 1204/09 by a member of the
papal curia and so fairly authoritative for the view taken in Rome, she
is called Roger's wife ("filiam Isacii, Constantinopolitani imperatoris,
duxerat in uxorem"), and Roger's widow at her remarriage to Philipp
("Philippus, relictam præfati Rogerii filiam imperatoris
Constantinopolitani, duxit uxorem"). Otto of St Blasien, writing in
Germany in 1209/10, called Eirene fiancée to Roger ("cum sua sponsa,
filia scilicet Constantinopolitani imperatoris"), that evidently
reflects the understanding that her marriage had not yet been
consummated rather than that a wedding had not yet been solemnised -
earlier the Weingarten continuator of Hugo of St Victor's chronicle,
writing in Germany at the end of 1197, had noted that Eirene was still
underage - i.e. not yet 12 - when betrothed to her second husband
Philipp of Swabia ca April 1195 ("filiam imperatoris Greciae, nomine
Hyrene, infra nubilies annos positam, quam in palatio Palernensi
invenit, Phylippo fratri suo in matrimonio coniunxit"). Their wedding
was not solemnised until 25 May 1197, by when she had presumably reached
the age of 12. By this reckoning she was probably born in 1184/85, not
long before her father became emperor in September 1185 after the death
of her mother. If the latter died in childbirth with her, in accord with
this circumstantial evidence, then she could have been given the same
name in her posthumous honour.

Byzantine princesses occasionally went through wedding ceremonies
underage, even as young as around 7. In Roman theory this allowed them
to repudiate the marriage on reaching the canonical qualifying age of
12, after which the marriage might be consummated, though of course
negation was most unlikely to happen given the diplomatic and personal
fallout that would have resulted.

I will post again later on the question of the younger Eirene's taking
the name Maria, probably after becoming queen for a second time, and on
the renaming of most (not all) western European imperial brides in
Constantinople though not eastern brides in the west.

Peter Stewart

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Thank you, Peter, for this very detailed explanation of historical Byzantine naming convention. It is rare to find any discussion on the subject here and it is greatly appreciated. I look forward to your next post.

Darrell E. Larocque

On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 9:37:42 AM UTC+10, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> Thank you, Peter, for this very detailed explanation of historical Byzantine naming convention. It is rare to find any discussion on the subject here and it is greatly appreciated. I look forward to your next post.
>
> Darrell E. Larocque
There was allegedly a 4YO princess forced to marry a German "Noble" of some sort.
One lady of interest to me is Irene Angelos allegedly born 1227 (some records show "about" 1226, but that's to close to her brothers birthday) she was "forced" to marry Ivan I Asen, Tsar a Bulgaria. There were many objections from the church, some religious leaders were killed, but they married in 1237 (she was 10 old?); Some say she was his second wife, some insist she was the third. Ivan had only Children from her.
What I find difficult to believe is that she (to my knowledge) had two sons, Ivan, allegedly born 1180 (She was 53 years old) and Alexander born at least 2 years later. I thought women don't get that easy pregnant after 50.

On 06-Aug-23 2:26 PM, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 9:37:42 AM UTC+10, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
>> Thank you, Peter, for this very detailed explanation of historical Byzantine naming convention. It is rare to find any discussion on the subject here and it is greatly appreciated. I look forward to your next post.
>>
>> Darrell E. Larocque
> There was allegedly a 4YO princess forced to marry a German "Noble" of some sort.
> One lady of interest to me is Irene Angelos allegedly born 1227 (some records show "about" 1226, but that's to close to her brothers birthday) she was "forced" to marry Ivan I Asen, Tsar a Bulgaria. There were many objections from the church, some religious leaders were killed, but they married in 1237 (she was 10 old?); Some say she was his second wife, some insist she was the third. Ivan had only Children from her.
> What I find difficult to believe is that she (to my knowledge) had two sons, Ivan, allegedly born 1180 (She was 53 years old) and Alexander born at least 2 years later. I thought women don't get that easy pregnant after 50.
>

Your knowledge has let you down yet again - whether or not Eirene was
"forced" to marry, her husband was Ivan II Asen - not Ivan I - and he is
said (by Akropolites) to have loved her as Anthony did Cleopatra. They
had three children: Michael II Asen, born ca 1239, and two daughters.

Ivan II Asen did not have recorded sons named Ivan or Alexander by any
wife, and obviously no offspring born in 1180 (around a decade before
his own birth) or for that matter in 1280 (almost four decades after his
death).

Peter Stewart

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On 06-Aug-23 5:11 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 06-Aug-23 2:26 PM, George Tsambourakis wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 9:37:42 AM UTC+10, Darrell E. Larocque
>> wrote:
>>> Thank you, Peter, for this very detailed explanation of historical
>>> Byzantine naming convention. It is rare to find any discussion on the
>>> subject here and it is greatly appreciated. I look forward to your
>>> next post.
>>>
>>> Darrell E. Larocque
>> There was allegedly a 4YO princess forced to marry a German "Noble" of
>> some sort.
>> One lady of interest to me is Irene Angelos allegedly born 1227 (some
>> records show "about" 1226, but that's to close to her brothers
>> birthday) she was "forced" to marry Ivan I Asen, Tsar a Bulgaria.
>> There were many objections from the church, some religious leaders
>> were killed, but they married in 1237 (she was 10 old?); Some say she
>> was his second wife, some insist she was the third. Ivan had only
>> Children from her.
>> What I find difficult to believe is that she (to my knowledge) had two
>> sons, Ivan, allegedly born 1180 (She was 53 years old) and Alexander
>> born at least 2 years later. I thought women don't get that easy
>> pregnant after 50.
>>
>
> Your knowledge has let you down yet again - whether or not Eirene was
> "forced" to marry, her husband was Ivan II Asen - not Ivan I - and he is
> said (by Akropolites) to have loved her as Anthony did Cleopatra. They
> had three children: Michael II Asen, born ca 1239, and two daughters.
>
> Ivan II Asen did not have recorded sons named Ivan or Alexander by any
> wife, and obviously no offspring born in 1180 (around a decade before
> his own birth) or for that matter in 1280 (almost four decades after his
> death).

I should have added that she was not called Eirene Angelina (much less
Angelos) but rather Einrene Komnene - her father and other male
relatives preferred to use the surnames Komnenos and Doukas instead of
their agnatic surname Angelos.

For a comprehensive discussion of the offspring of Ivan II Asen and
Eirene see the article by Ian Mladjov, 'The children of Ivan Asen II and
Eirēnē Komnēnē: contribution to the prosopography of medieval Bulgaria',
in *Bulgaria mediaevalis* 3 (2012) 485-500. This can be obtained here
https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=513153.

Peter Stewart

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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
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On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 5:32:49 PM UTC+10, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 06-Aug-23 5:11 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 06-Aug-23 2:26 PM, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> >> On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 9:37:42 AM UTC+10, Darrell E. Larocque
> >> wrote:
> >>> Thank you, Peter, for this very detailed explanation of historical
> >>> Byzantine naming convention. It is rare to find any discussion on the
> >>> subject here and it is greatly appreciated. I look forward to your
> >>> next post.
> >>>
> >>> Darrell E. Larocque
> >> There was allegedly a 4YO princess forced to marry a German "Noble" of
> >> some sort.
> >> One lady of interest to me is Irene Angelos allegedly born 1227 (some
> >> records show "about" 1226, but that's to close to her brothers
> >> birthday) she was "forced" to marry Ivan I Asen, Tsar a Bulgaria.
> >> There were many objections from the church, some religious leaders
> >> were killed, but they married in 1237 (she was 10 old?); Some say she
> >> was his second wife, some insist she was the third. Ivan had only
> >> Children from her.
> >> What I find difficult to believe is that she (to my knowledge) had two
> >> sons, Ivan, allegedly born 1180 (She was 53 years old) and Alexander
> >> born at least 2 years later. I thought women don't get that easy
> >> pregnant after 50.
> >>
> >
> > Your knowledge has let you down yet again - whether or not Eirene was
> > "forced" to marry, her husband was Ivan II Asen - not Ivan I - and he is
> > said (by Akropolites) to have loved her as Anthony did Cleopatra. They
> > had three children: Michael II Asen, born ca 1239, and two daughters.
> >
> > Ivan II Asen did not have recorded sons named Ivan or Alexander by any
> > wife, and obviously no offspring born in 1180 (around a decade before
> > his own birth) or for that matter in 1280 (almost four decades after his
> > death).
> I should have added that she was not called Eirene Angelina (much less
> Angelos) but rather Einrene Komnene - her father and other male
> relatives preferred to use the surnames Komnenos and Doukas instead of
> their agnatic surname Angelos.
>
> For a comprehensive discussion of the offspring of Ivan II Asen and
> Eirene see the article by Ian Mladjov, 'The children of Ivan Asen II and
> Eirēnē Komnēnē: contribution to the prosopography of medieval Bulgaria',
> in *Bulgaria mediaevalis* 3 (2012) 485-500. This can be obtained here
> https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=513153.
> Peter Stewart
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com
The lady I mentioned is the daughter of Theodoros I Angelos, Emperor of Thessalonika (died 1252 in Nikaia Prison, Was the son of Ioannis and Zoe Doukas (daugher f Konstantnos Doukas and Anna Komninos) and Maria Petralifas (sister of Theodoros, parents unknown to me). Irene was the sister of Ioannis, Demitrios and Anna (wife of Stephen Radoslav king of Serbia). I have seen more than a dozen different views online.

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 8:24:16 AM UTC+10, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 5:32:49 PM UTC+10, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 06-Aug-23 5:11 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > > On 06-Aug-23 2:26 PM, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 9:37:42 AM UTC+10, Darrell E. Larocque
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> Thank you, Peter, for this very detailed explanation of historical
> > >>> Byzantine naming convention. It is rare to find any discussion on the
> > >>> subject here and it is greatly appreciated. I look forward to your
> > >>> next post.
> > >>>
> > >>> Darrell E. Larocque
> > >> There was allegedly a 4YO princess forced to marry a German "Noble" of
> > >> some sort.
> > >> One lady of interest to me is Irene Angelos allegedly born 1227 (some
> > >> records show "about" 1226, but that's to close to her brothers
> > >> birthday) she was "forced" to marry Ivan I Asen, Tsar a Bulgaria.
> > >> There were many objections from the church, some religious leaders
> > >> were killed, but they married in 1237 (she was 10 old?); Some say she
> > >> was his second wife, some insist she was the third. Ivan had only
> > >> Children from her.
> > >> What I find difficult to believe is that she (to my knowledge) had two
> > >> sons, Ivan, allegedly born 1180 (She was 53 years old) and Alexander
> > >> born at least 2 years later. I thought women don't get that easy
> > >> pregnant after 50.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Your knowledge has let you down yet again - whether or not Eirene was
> > > "forced" to marry, her husband was Ivan II Asen - not Ivan I - and he is
> > > said (by Akropolites) to have loved her as Anthony did Cleopatra. They
> > > had three children: Michael II Asen, born ca 1239, and two daughters.
> > >
> > > Ivan II Asen did not have recorded sons named Ivan or Alexander by any
> > > wife, and obviously no offspring born in 1180 (around a decade before
> > > his own birth) or for that matter in 1280 (almost four decades after his
> > > death).
> > I should have added that she was not called Eirene Angelina (much less
> > Angelos) but rather Einrene Komnene - her father and other male
> > relatives preferred to use the surnames Komnenos and Doukas instead of
> > their agnatic surname Angelos.
> >
> > For a comprehensive discussion of the offspring of Ivan II Asen and
> > Eirene see the article by Ian Mladjov, 'The children of Ivan Asen II and
> > Eirēnē Komnēnē: contribution to the prosopography of medieval Bulgaria',
> > in *Bulgaria mediaevalis* 3 (2012) 485-500. This can be obtained here
> > https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=513153.
> > Peter Stewart
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > www.avg.com
> The lady I mentioned is the daughter of Theodoros I Angelos, Emperor of Thessalonika (died 1252 in Nikaia Prison, Was the son of Ioannis and Zoe Doukas (daugher f Konstantnos Doukas and Anna Komninos) and Maria Petralifas (sister of Theodoros, parents unknown to me). Irene was the sister of Ioannis, Demitrios and Anna (wife of Stephen Radoslav king of Serbia). I have seen more than a dozen different views online.
I should point out that I am aware of the recent presentations WIKI,

"Marrying Irene Komnene Doukaina, Ivan Asen II would have broken church canons, as his daughter from a previous marriage was married to Eirene's uncle Manuel of Thessalonica.[86] There is moot evidence[clarification needed] that the Bulgarian church opposed the marriage and that a patriarch (called either Spiridon or Vissarion) was deposed or executed by the irate tsar.[87][88] Akropolites recorded two lists about Ivan Asen's children by his third (or second) wife, Irene Komnene Doukaina.[89] Irene gave birth to....."

There are many presentations online. There is one which claims that Ivans great Grandmother was a ROMANOV (whatever that means).

On 07-Aug-23 8:24 AM, George Tsambourakis wrote:
> On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 5:32:49 PM UTC+10, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 06-Aug-23 5:11 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>> On 06-Aug-23 2:26 PM, George Tsambourakis wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 9:37:42 AM UTC+10, Darrell E. Larocque
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Thank you, Peter, for this very detailed explanation of historical
>>>>> Byzantine naming convention. It is rare to find any discussion on the
>>>>> subject here and it is greatly appreciated. I look forward to your
>>>>> next post.
>>>>>
>>>>> Darrell E. Larocque
>>>> There was allegedly a 4YO princess forced to marry a German "Noble" of
>>>> some sort.
>>>> One lady of interest to me is Irene Angelos allegedly born 1227 (some
>>>> records show "about" 1226, but that's to close to her brothers
>>>> birthday) she was "forced" to marry Ivan I Asen, Tsar a Bulgaria.
>>>> There were many objections from the church, some religious leaders
>>>> were killed, but they married in 1237 (she was 10 old?); Some say she
>>>> was his second wife, some insist she was the third. Ivan had only
>>>> Children from her.
>>>> What I find difficult to believe is that she (to my knowledge) had two
>>>> sons, Ivan, allegedly born 1180 (She was 53 years old) and Alexander
>>>> born at least 2 years later. I thought women don't get that easy
>>>> pregnant after 50.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Your knowledge has let you down yet again - whether or not Eirene was
>>> "forced" to marry, her husband was Ivan II Asen - not Ivan I - and he is
>>> said (by Akropolites) to have loved her as Anthony did Cleopatra. They
>>> had three children: Michael II Asen, born ca 1239, and two daughters.
>>>
>>> Ivan II Asen did not have recorded sons named Ivan or Alexander by any
>>> wife, and obviously no offspring born in 1180 (around a decade before
>>> his own birth) or for that matter in 1280 (almost four decades after his
>>> death).
>> I should have added that she was not called Eirene Angelina (much less
>> Angelos) but rather Einrene Komnene - her father and other male
>> relatives preferred to use the surnames Komnenos and Doukas instead of
>> their agnatic surname Angelos.
>>
>> For a comprehensive discussion of the offspring of Ivan II Asen and
>> Eirene see the article by Ian Mladjov, 'The children of Ivan Asen II and
>> Eirēnē Komnēnē: contribution to the prosopography of medieval Bulgaria',
>> in *Bulgaria mediaevalis* 3 (2012) 485-500. This can be obtained here
>> https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=513153.
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
> The lady I mentioned is the daughter of Theodoros I Angelos, Emperor of Thessalonika (died 1252 in Nikaia Prison, Was the son of Ioannis and Zoe Doukas (daugher f Konstantnos Doukas and Anna Komninos) and Maria Petralifas (sister of Theodoros, parents unknown to me). Irene was the sister of Ioannis, Demitrios and Anna (wife of Stephen Radoslav king of Serbia). I have seen more than a dozen different views online.

That is exactly who we are both talking about - as I said, she was not
called Angelina just as her father did not call himself Angelos: he used
the surnames Doukas and Konmnenos. From memory he at least once called
himself by the compound "Angelodoukas" but not simply Angelos. She was
known as Eirene Komnene just as in the article by Ian Mladjov linked above.

Whatever you may wish to call her now, she did not give birth to sons of
Ivan II Asen ca 40 years after his death or ca 10 years before his own
birth.

Incidentally it is not known certainly when her father Theodoros I died
as a prisoner, which may have been in or after 1253. The parentage of
his mother is also not certain.

Your habit of giving masculine surnames to Byzantine ladies is not only
contrary to their own practice but also to the conventional usage of
modern historians and genealogists. Being an eccentric rule unto
yourself may be personally satisfying but it is not very considerate to
readers.

Peter Stewart