On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> At this point, the following extra information is available
> • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> It seemed a brick wall.
> Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> • Geni (very patchy)
> • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> The case for Thomas depends on;
> • Dates are right
> • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
> Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> .
> *********************************************************************
> Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> Children as follows;
> • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> Alexander St John references
> • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
>
> All feedback welcome!
>
> Colin Piper

It was Scandinavian custom to provide for all children - especially the younger ones. The St. Johns in numerous wills provided for all children and their siblings because they were all equal heirs. It's why you'll see properties divided into moieties or equal parts or a form of that. Often the eldest child received a double portion. They didn't follow primogeniture. This custom is seen all the way down to the St. Johns that came to Colonial America - often leaving their homesteads to the younger children after the elder children left to make a life of their own. In Wales it's often described as Gavelkind.

On Saturday, August 5, 2023 at 2:02:08 AM UTC+9, Suzanne St. John wrote:
> It was Scandinavian custom to provide for all children - especially the younger ones. The St. Johns in numerous wills provided for all children and their siblings because they were all equal heirs. It's why you'll see properties divided into moieties or equal parts or a form of that. Often the eldest child received a double portion. They didn't follow primogeniture. This custom is seen all the way down to the St. Johns that came to Colonial America - often leaving their homesteads to the younger children after the elder children left to make a life of their own. In Wales it's often described as Gavelkind.
It may be a Scandinavian custom, certainly it was a German one. But, under medieval English commonlaw, it could not be done with regard to land simply by making a will. There legal procedures to go, court cases to undergo, and, occasionally, royal dispensation. It's not that it couldn't happen. It's just that, if it did happen, there would have been legally required documentation which, being official, would still be available in the National Archives for those making a search.