I am shifting gears from doing French research to English for my wife and I am seeing abbreviations that I am unfamiliar with. I am hoping someone here can help untangle these abbreviations. Here is an example: “Edward Cope, of Hanwell and Grimsbury, esq., aet. 33, Esc. 5 Edw. 6. ob. 20 June 3 and 4 P. and M. (1557) Esc. 4 and 5 P. and M. p. 1 n. 125.” So far, I have figured out that this means that Edward Cope, esquire, was born ca. 1524, died 20 June in years 3 and 4 of the reigns of King Philip and Queen Mary (1557) age 33. But I do not know what the abbreviation Esc. stands for. From other text on the page, I assume Esc. has something to do with inheritance, but what is it? And I am mystified with the p. 1, n. 125, which I would think means page 1 note 125, but what is the reference it is pointing too. There is no key for abbreviations in this volume. Unfortunately, the books I have containing genealogy related abbreviations have been of no help. Any clues will be greatly appreciated.

I should add the book is Baker, History and Antiquities of the County of Northampton (1822-1830), 1:748.

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 8:10:50 AM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> I am shifting gears from doing French research to English for my wife and I am seeing abbreviations that I am unfamiliar with. I am hoping someone here can help untangle these abbreviations. Here is an example: “Edward Cope, of Hanwell and Grimsbury, esq., aet. 33, Esc. 5 Edw. 6. ob. 20 June 3 and 4 P. and M. (1557) Esc. 4 and 5 P. and M. p. 1 n. 125.” So far, I have figured out that this means that Edward Cope, esquire, was born ca. 1524, died 20 June in years 3 and 4 of the reigns of King Philip and Queen Mary (1557) age 33. But I do not know what the abbreviation Esc. stands for. From other text on the page, I assume Esc. has something to do with inheritance, but what is it? And I am mystified with the p. 1, n. 125, which I would think means page 1 note 125, but what is the reference it is pointing too. There is no key for abbreviations in this volume. Unfortunately, the books I have containing genealogy related abbreviations have been of no help. Any clues will be greatly appreciated.
>
> I should add the book is Baker, History and Antiquities of the County of Northampton (1822-1830), 1:748.

https://archive.org/details/HistoryAndAntiquitiesOfTheCountyOfNorthamptonBakerVol1/page/n750/mode/1up?q=Cope&view=theater

Escheat

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 8:10:50 AM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> I am shifting gears from doing French research to English for my wife and I am seeing abbreviations that I am unfamiliar with. I am hoping someone here can help untangle these abbreviations. Here is an example: “Edward Cope, of Hanwell and Grimsbury, esq., aet. 33, Esc. 5 Edw. 6. ob. 20 June 3 and 4 P. and M. (1557) Esc. 4 and 5 P. and M. p. 1 n. 125.” So far, I have figured out that this means that Edward Cope, esquire, was born ca. 1524, died 20 June in years 3 and 4 of the reigns of King Philip and Queen Mary (1557) age 33. But I do not know what the abbreviation Esc. stands for. From other text on the page, I assume Esc. has something to do with inheritance, but what is it? And I am mystified with the p. 1, n. 125, which I would think means page 1 note 125, but what is the reference it is pointing too. There is no key for abbreviations in this volume. Unfortunately, the books I have containing genealogy related abbreviations have been of no help. Any clues will be greatly appreciated.
>

Esc. is 'escheats', now commonly called inquisitions post mortem - the inquests held upon the death of someone holding property of the king in order to determine when they died, who were the heirs owing a tax to the crown to inherit, and whether the heirs were minors, in which case the crown exercised a right to guardianship and management of the estate during their minorities .

This is reporting that in the ipm for his father, in the 5th year of Edward VI, Edward Cope was reported as 'aged 33 years and more'. This ipm has never been published, and would be found in The National Archives (UK), C 142/94/43:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7821541

His own ipm was then performed in the 4th/5th year of Philip and Mary, and found that he had died 20 June of the previous regnal year. n. 125 is 'number 125' - the ipms in each batch were numbered consecutively by a later archivist. p.1 seems to refer to part 1, since though the ipms for 4/5 P&M are now divided into four record groups, they use consecutive numbering for the first two record groups, and then the numbering resets and repeats for the third and fourth record groups, so the year was originally divided into just two parts, with the document in question being no. 125 in the first part. The document is now catalogued as C 142/112/125:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7821542

These have never been published, but an image of the document can be obtained from The National Archive for a fee. Just be aware - the originals are in Latin, and often in a script that is not for the faint of heart.

taf

Wow taf, thanks for the incredibly detailed and helpful response. I would not have figured this out on my own.

OK, I have run into some more odd abbreviations I cannot find in my reference books. What would "Deft (defendant?) in fines for Ovingdean, 1544 and 1550-1551" and "Admn (administration?) at Lewes (Al. 182)" mean? Both entries come from Sussex, England.

I know I see abbreviations in French genealogy, but not that many, and most of them are pretty intuitive. Is it me or is it the case that genealogists in the United Kingdom just use more abbreviations? I have three books on my desk right now that help with abbreviations in genealogy and I am still stumped by some of the things I see.

Thanks in advance for your help.

On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 1:41:56 PM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> OK, I have run into some more odd abbreviations I cannot find in my reference books. What would "Deft (defendant?) in fines for Ovingdean, 1544 and 1550-1551" and "Admn (administration?) at Lewes (Al. 182)" mean? Both entries come from Sussex, England.
>

The first relates to a 'fine', which takes some explaining. Basically, this was a workaround that enabled land to be transferred or the predetermined succession to be altered through the mechanism of a fake lawsuit. A querant would initiate a lawsuit against a deforciant - your 'Deft' - claiming that there was a land dispute they had agreed to settle, and laid out their agreement, which was then recorded with the crown for a fee (the fine referred to). It would read something like that Y and his wife X were querants, and Z was deforciant in a dispute over a specified property. The querant might accept that the disputed land actually belonged to the deforciant, and the deforciant in turn then agreed to sell the land to the querant in exchange for a nominal one-time payment, with remainder (subsequent succession) to the querant's younger son B, and failing issue by him, to younger son C, D, and daughters E, F, and G in order. The whole thing was a pretext - the parties were actually allies, there was no dispute, the querant was the actual property owner, but was colluding with the deforciant to change the succession to the land (in the above example, standard succession would have it go to eldest son, A, so this agreement dictates it be inherited instead by a younger son - similarly this might be done following a second marriage to prefer the children of the second wife) or it's outright ownership.

These dispute resolution accounts were recorded on a single vellum sheet three times, left-right-bottom, then cut apart, with the left and right going to the parties, and the bottom, the foot of the vellum, deposited with the crown as record of the fine paid. The chancery documents thus came to be referred to as 'feet of fines', or just 'fines'.

As to Admn, I would assume this is an administration, but would need more context to be sure.

taf

Thank you taf for the quick and very thorough reply. I will have to read this over several times and try to think like a lawyer!

As for the administration here is what I know: JOHN AWOOD or A’WOOD, Married (1) —?—. Married (2) ELIZABETH MILLER. He was of Hamsey, Sussex, England. Admn (administration?) at Lewes (Al. 182). Comber, Sussex Genealogies, 3:6, 11.

Comber tends to use a lot of abbreviations and is very brief.

On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 4:15:51 PM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> Thank you taf for the quick and very thorough reply. I will have to read this over several times and try to think like a lawyer!
>
> As for the administration here is what I know: JOHN AWOOD or A’WOOD, Married (1) —?—. Married (2) ELIZABETH MILLER. He was of Hamsey, Sussex, England. Admn (administration?) at Lewes (Al. 182). Comber, Sussex Genealogies, 3:6, 11.
>
> Comber tends to use a lot of abbreviations and is very brief.

Not sure what Comber's citation is referring to, but the administration for John A'Wood of Hamsey was granted in the Archdeaconry Court of Lewes to George Miller of Compton, as trustee for Thomas, John, Mary and Elizabeth, sons and daughters, on 13 June 1551, which appears in Book A3, p. 8 per index here:
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/347571/?page=39&viewer=picture&o=&n=0&q=#page=39&viewer=picture&o=search&n=0&q=hamsey

As far as I can tell, this source can be viewed at a Family History Center:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/685691

Thanks again taf, greatly appreciate your help.

I played around with the National Archives of the United Kingdom website and was able to find and download Elizabeth (Miller) A'Wood's will from 1542. I was impressed by how easy it was to use this site and download a copy of the will. It has been over ten years since I last sought records from this archives and at that time I hired a genealogist in England to search the military records for me. I suspect that many, if not most, of these military records are now online at the archives.

I must confess I have a hard time reading script before say 1650. I have an excellent paleographer I work with for French records, but he does not do English records. Can you recommend anyone to transcribe sixteenth century records?

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 7:52:09 AM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> Thanks again taf, greatly appreciate your help.
>
> I played around with the National Archives of the United Kingdom website and was able to find and download Elizabeth (Miller) A'Wood's will from 1542. I was impressed by how easy it was to use this site and download a copy of the will. It has been over ten years since I last sought records from this archives and at that time I hired a genealogist in England to search the military records for me. I suspect that many, if not most, of these military records are now online at the archives.
>

Some are, some aren't. Given lex murphiensis, the one's you want the most are probably not.

> I must confess I have a hard time reading script before say 1650. I have an excellent paleographer I work with for French records, but he does not do English records. Can you recommend anyone to transcribe sixteenth century records?

nobody comes to mind, but I have to say, it is not as daunting as it first appears. Once you get a feel for it, figuring out the alternative letter forms and the general style, it becomes easy for the most part. Just sound it out rather than expecting modern spelling. Here is a start:

"In the name of God amen. The xiith Daye of October in the year of our lord god a thousand fyve hundred fourtie and one. I Elizabeth Wodd of Hamsey in the Countie of Sussex wedna being of hole mynd and ϼfitt remembrannce ordyn and mak this my present testament and last will, in all the holye company of hevyn my body to be buryed in the churche of Hamsey aforesayd, also I bequith to the mother churche of Chechester xiid . . ."

Some words here that may not be clear: wedna = widow; ϼfitt uses one of the standard abbreviations of the time, a crossed 'p', abbreviating 'per', so 'perfitt', i.e. perfect; ordyn = ordain; hevyn = heaven.

You will probably get the hang of it pretty quickly.

Relatives named that I spotted on a quick pass: she leaves a legacy to "my brother George Myller", and another to "ether of my two doughters Marye and Elizabeth at the daye of their maryage", giving them £10 above the bequest made by their late father to be paid by her brother Thomas Miller. Legacies to "my three sonnes, that ys to saye William Awood, John Awood and Thomas Awood." She also puts Thomas Awood, brother to her late husband, under obligation to her brother Thomas Miller.

taf

I sir am indebted to you. I have already come across the names George and Thomas Miller, now I know they are her brothers, it makes sense.

Today my wife and I sent to the MSU library and read through some records from Scotland in Scots (not Gaelic). I surprise my wife that I was able to read through most of it. I just, as you suggest, sound it out. It also helps to know that you can usually substituted W for Qu. But these were all transcribed records. I have a hard time managing script.

I really do appreciate your kind help. It is just going to take some time mastering English records. I already do fairly well with Irish and Scottish records. I just ordered a book on Medieval Genealogy that focuses on English records. I promise to read through it and not be a pest with endless questions.

I would like to give you an honorable mention in a footnote for all your assistance, but all I know you as is taf. Over the years I have read many of your posts and admire your knowledge. I understand wanting to be anonymous on this group. I would ask you to email me back with your name, but posting an email address here is reckless. If you visit my website at habitant.org and click on the email button at the bottom, then you can contact me directly.

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:

> "In the name of God amen. The xiith Daye of October in the year of our lord god a thousand fyve hundred fourtie and one. I Elizabeth Wodd of Hamsey in the Countie of Sussex wedna being of hole mynd and ϼfitt remembrannce ordyn and mak this my present

I am going to modify this ever so slightly, and give an explanation so anyone learning this stuff can better understand the thought process. The word after ϼfitt has six successive minims - nearly indistinguishable short upstrokes that could represent all or part of c, e, i, n, m, u, or y, and even some other letters if the scribe was particularly sloppy. You just have to guess from context and any slight deviation. In particular, no effort was made to distinguish i, n, m, and u at all except for the number of strokes, so 'nn' looks just like 'mi', 'im', 'uu', 'un', 'nu', or 'ini'. At a superficial level, we had remembra⍳⍳⍳⍳⍳⍳'. The ending ⍳' was clearly an 'e', matching his style for other terminal 'e's, and the minim before that connected to the 'e' off the top, rather than the typical bottom, making it an 'r' or 'c', and this scribe has rather distinct 'r's so this was a 'c'. That gives us remembra⍳⍳⍳⍳ce, clearly remembrance, but with four strokes rather than two between the remembra- and the -ce. I guessed 'nn' because it would have sounded right, but in thinking about it, it just seems too odd to repeat the 'n'. A lot of words that now have an -ance or -ant ending in modern English at this time were sometimes represented as -aunce or -aunt, so I think that is what we are seeing here, 'remembraunce'.

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 7:58:47 PM UTC-4, JPD wrote:
> I sir am indebted to you. I have already come across the names George and Thomas Miller, now I know they are her brothers, it makes sense.
>
> Today my wife and I sent to the MSU library and read through some records from Scotland in Scots (not Gaelic). I surprise my wife that I was able to read through most of it. I just, as you suggest, sound it out. It also helps to know that you can usually substituted W for Qu. But these were all transcribed records. I have a hard time managing script.
>
> I really do appreciate your kind help. It is just going to take some time mastering English records. I already do fairly well with Irish and Scottish records. I just ordered a book on Medieval Genealogy that focuses on English records. I promise to read through it and not be a pest with endless questions.
>
> I would like to give you an honorable mention in a footnote for all your assistance, but all I know you as is taf. Over the years I have read many of your posts and admire your knowledge. I understand wanting to be anonymous on this group. I would ask you to email me back with your name, but posting an email address here is reckless. If you visit my website at habitant.org and click on the email button at the bottom, then you can contact me directly.

Want to chime in quickly and also thank taf for the amazing contributions here. Without exception, your posts are clear, thorough, and so very helpful.. I always learn from them, no matter the subject. Grateful.

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
>
> > "In the name of God amen. The xiith Daye of October in the year of our lord god a thousand fyve hundred fourtie and one. I Elizabeth Wodd of Hamsey in the Countie of Sussex wedna being of hole mynd and ϼfitt remembrannce ordyn and mak this my present
> I am going to modify this ever so slightly, and give an explanation so anyone learning this stuff can better understand the thought process. The word after ϼfitt has six successive minims - nearly indistinguishable short upstrokes that could represent all or part of c, e, i, n, m, u, or y, and even some other letters if the scribe was particularly sloppy. You just have to guess from context and any slight deviation. In particular, no effort was made to distinguish i, n, m, and u at all except for the number of strokes, so 'nn' looks just like 'mi', 'im', 'uu', 'un', 'nu', or 'ini'. At a superficial level, we had remembra⍳⍳⍳⍳⍳⍳'. The ending ⍳' was clearly an 'e', matching his style for other terminal 'e's, and the minim before that connected to the 'e' off the top, rather than the typical bottom, making it an 'r' or 'c', and this scribe has rather distinct 'r's so this was a 'c'. That gives us remembra⍳⍳⍳⍳ce, clearly remembrance, but with four strokes rather than two between the remembra- and the -ce. I guessed 'nn' because it would have sounded right, but in thinking about it, it just seems too odd to repeat the 'n'. A lot of words that now have an -ance or -ant ending in modern English at this time were sometimes represented as -aunce or -aunt, so I think that is what we are seeing here, 'remembraunce'.

JPD, I'm familiar with habitant.org, having many French Canadian ancestors. Thank you for your work. I'm curious about the title of the book you ordered on medieval genealogy, focusing on English records? I really need one.

On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 10:59:12 AM UTC-7, Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57 wrote:

> On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 2:45:38 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> >
> > > "In the name of God amen. The xiith Daye of October in the year of our lord god a thousand fyve hundred fourtie and one. I Elizabeth Wodd of Hamsey in the Countie of Sussex wedna being of hole mynd and ϼfitt remembrannce ordyn and mak this my present
> > I am going to modify this ever so slightly, and give an explanation so anyone learning this stuff can better understand the thought process. The word after ϼfitt has six successive minims - nearly indistinguishable short upstrokes that could represent all or part of c, e, i, n, m, u, or y, and even some other letters if the scribe was particularly sloppy. You just have to guess from context and any slight deviation. In particular, no effort was made to distinguish i, n, m, and u at all except for the number of strokes, so 'nn' looks just like 'mi', 'im', 'uu', 'un', 'nu', or 'ini'. At a superficial level, we had remembra⍳⍳⍳⍳⍳⍳'. The ending ⍳' was clearly an 'e', matching his style for other terminal 'e's, and the minim before that connected to the 'e' off the top, rather than the typical bottom, making it an 'r' or 'c', and this scribe has rather distinct 'r's so this was a 'c'. That gives us remembra⍳⍳⍳⍳ce, clearly remembrance, but with four strokes rather than two between the remembra- and the -ce. I guessed 'nn' because it would have sounded right, but in thinking about it, it just seems too odd to repeat the 'n'. A lot of words that now have an -ance or -ant ending in modern English at this time were sometimes represented as -aunce or -aunt, so I think that is what we are seeing here, 'remembraunce'.
> JPD, I'm familiar with habitant.org, having many French Canadian ancestors. Thank you for your work. I'm curious about the title of the book you ordered on medieval genealogy, focusing on English records? I really need one.

In more modern English:
"I Elizabeth Wood of Hamsey in the County of Sussex widow being of whole mind and perfect remembrance ordain and make this my present"
It's a fairly standard opening to wills.
["I Evan Evans of sound and perfect mind and memory praise be therefore to Almighty God do make ordein this my last will and testament" - 1820]

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 4:58:47 PM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> I sir am indebted to you. I have already come across the names George and Thomas Miller, now I know they are her brothers, it makes sense.
>
> Today my wife and I sent to the MSU library and read through some records from Scotland in Scots (not Gaelic). I surprise my wife that I was able to read through most of it. I just, as you suggest, sound it out. It also helps to know that you can usually substituted W for Qu. But these were all transcribed records. I have a hard time managing script.
>
> I really do appreciate your kind help. It is just going to take some time mastering English records. I already do fairly well with Irish and Scottish records. I just ordered a book on Medieval Genealogy that focuses on English records. I promise to read through it and not be a pest with endless questions.
>
> I would like to give you an honorable mention in a footnote for all your assistance, but all I know you as is taf. Over the years I have read many of your posts and admire your knowledge. I understand wanting to be anonymous on this group. I would ask you to email me back with your name, but posting an email address here is reckless. If you visit my website at habitant.org and click on the email button at the bottom, then you can contact me directly.

No acknowledgement is necessary. Happy to help.

And another correction - this one needs no elaborate explanation. Muscle memory just led my fingers to type something different than my eyes were seeing, and I failed to catch it.

" . . . in all the holye company of hevyn . . . "

should have read

" . . . in all the holye companey of hevyn . . . "

taf

On 31-Aug-23 8:49 AM, taf wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 30, 2023 at 1:41:56 PM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
>> OK, I have run into some more odd abbreviations I cannot find in my reference books. What would "Deft (defendant?) in fines for Ovingdean, 1544 and 1550-1551" and "Admn (administration?) at Lewes (Al. 182)" mean? Both entries come from Sussex, England.
>>
>
> The first relates to a 'fine', which takes some explaining. Basically, this was a workaround that enabled land to be transferred or the predetermined succession to be altered through the mechanism of a fake lawsuit. A querant would initiate a lawsuit against a deforciant - your 'Deft' - claiming that there was a land dispute they had agreed to settle, and laid out their agreement, which was then recorded with the crown for a fee (the fine referred to). It would read something like that Y and his wife X were querants, and Z was deforciant in a dispute over a specified property. The querant might accept that the disputed land actually belonged to the deforciant, and the deforciant in turn then agreed to sell the land to the querant in exchange for a nominal one-time payment, with remainder (subsequent succession) to the querant's younger son B, and failing issue by him, to younger son C, D, and daughters E, F, and G in order. The whole thing was a pretext - the parties were actually allies, there was no dispute, the querant was the actual property owner, but was colluding with the deforciant to change the succession to the land (in the above example, standard succession would have it go to eldest son, A, so this agreement dictates it be inherited instead by a younger son - similarly this might be done following a second marriage to prefer the children of the second wife) or it's outright ownership.
>
> These dispute resolution accounts were recorded on a single vellum sheet three times, left-right-bottom, then cut apart, with the left and right going to the parties, and the bottom, the foot of the vellum, deposited with the crown as record of the fine paid. The chancery documents thus came to be referred to as 'feet of fines', or just 'fines'.
>
> As to Admn, I would assume this is an administration, but would need more context to be sure.
On a related tack, there is an interesting study of the late-medieval
property market in England available here
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/enterprise-and-society/article/medieval-property-investors-ca-13001500/8C49E706E596B871E36EF1389E3CDDDB.
It is notable that from the first half of the 14th century to the second
half of the 15th, the frequency of clergy participants fell from 55% to
29%, while that of gentry increased from 15% to 48%. And yet disdain of
commerce became a hallmark of the British gentry...
Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Jinny, thank you for your kind comment. And thank you for asking about the book.

The working title of the book for now is: The Ancestry of Major James Palmer, Inspector General of Prisons and Lunatic Asylums in Ireland: An Anglo-Irish Pedigree

It is an account of my wife's Palmer, Cope, Hamilton, Maxwell, Muschamp, McGuinness, O’ Toole, Povey, Smyth, Vesey, and other ancestors in Ireland, Scotland, England, and the United States of America.

We have been working on this book for over two decades, but I keep letting myself get distracted with my French research. The last few weeks, after an absence of over a year, I have finally returned to working on this book. To get an idea about some of my wife's ancestry you can check out her webpage at http://mcguinnessfamily.org.

My wife grew up in a large, fifteen children, Irish Catholic family. She grew up knowing about the Major, but we were somewhat surprised to find out how many Anglo-Irish and Scots-Irish ancestors she has when we started to trace this side of the family. As my mother was Irish Catholic, I grew up reading Irish history from that perspective and it has been an awkward transition researching and writing about people who oppressed and exploited my mother's people and many of my wife's McGuinness and O'Toole ancestors. For example, Major Palmer was in charge of the convict program and sent several thousand Irish men, women, and children to Australia. It can be a balancing act to write about some of these people without wanting to rip them apart sarcastically, but I have learned to tone down my Irish Republican sympathies.

For me it is a chance to change gears. I am running out of projects to do with Acadian, French-Canadian, and Métis research, so now I get to do Irish, Scottish, and English research.

Sorry to go on, back to work.

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 6:38:37 PM UTC-4, JPD wrote:
> Jinny, thank you for your kind comment. And thank you for asking about the book.
>
> The working title of the book for now is: The Ancestry of Major James Palmer, Inspector General of Prisons and Lunatic Asylums in Ireland: An Anglo-Irish Pedigree
>
> It is an account of my wife's Palmer, Cope, Hamilton, Maxwell, Muschamp, McGuinness, O’ Toole, Povey, Smyth, Vesey, and other ancestors in Ireland, Scotland, England, and the United States of America.
>
> We have been working on this book for over two decades, but I keep letting myself get distracted with my French research. The last few weeks, after an absence of over a year, I have finally returned to working on this book. To get an idea about some of my wife's ancestry you can check out her webpage at http://mcguinnessfamily.org.
>
> My wife grew up in a large, fifteen children, Irish Catholic family. She grew up knowing about the Major, but we were somewhat surprised to find out how many Anglo-Irish and Scots-Irish ancestors she has when we started to trace this side of the family. As my mother was Irish Catholic, I grew up reading Irish history from that perspective and it has been an awkward transition researching and writing about people who oppressed and exploited my mother's people and many of my wife's McGuinness and O'Toole ancestors. For example, Major Palmer was in charge of the convict program and sent several thousand Irish men, women, and children to Australia. It can be a balancing act to write about some of these people without wanting to rip them apart sarcastically, but I have learned to tone down my Irish Republican sympathies.
>
> For me it is a chance to change gears. I am running out of projects to do with Acadian, French-Canadian, and Métis research, so now I get to do Irish, Scottish, and English research.
>
> Sorry to go on, back to work.
John, Thanks for your reply...I'm excited to hear of your developments, will follow your posts for updates, and will check out your wife's web page. Again, your work on French Canadian families has been a huge help in my own research. I'm also doing some work now for a friend for whom I've found previously unknown Acadian ancestors, and will be relying on your work for insight.

I have many French and German Catholic ancestors and numbers of Protestant English, Irish, and Scottish; at times, trying to see things from each perspective gets challenging. To my regret, I haven't found a single Irish Catholic ancestor among my forebears, though both my husband and late husband have many, and their families reflect that extraordinary culture. I'm rooting for you as you change gears and undoubtedly find numerous new projects! Jinny

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 6:38:37 PM UTC-4, JPD wrote:
> Jinny, thank you for your kind comment. And thank you for asking about the book.
>
> The working title of the book for now is: The Ancestry of Major James Palmer, Inspector General of Prisons and Lunatic Asylums in Ireland: An Anglo-Irish Pedigree
>
> It is an account of my wife's Palmer, Cope, Hamilton, Maxwell, Muschamp, McGuinness, O’ Toole, Povey, Smyth, Vesey, and other ancestors in Ireland, Scotland, England, and the United States of America.
>
> We have been working on this book for over two decades, but I keep letting myself get distracted with my French research. The last few weeks, after an absence of over a year, I have finally returned to working on this book. To get an idea about some of my wife's ancestry you can check out her webpage at http://mcguinnessfamily.org.
>
> My wife grew up in a large, fifteen children, Irish Catholic family. She grew up knowing about the Major, but we were somewhat surprised to find out how many Anglo-Irish and Scots-Irish ancestors she has when we started to trace this side of the family. As my mother was Irish Catholic, I grew up reading Irish history from that perspective and it has been an awkward transition researching and writing about people who oppressed and exploited my mother's people and many of my wife's McGuinness and O'Toole ancestors. For example, Major Palmer was in charge of the convict program and sent several thousand Irish men, women, and children to Australia. It can be a balancing act to write about some of these people without wanting to rip them apart sarcastically, but I have learned to tone down my Irish Republican sympathies.
>
> For me it is a chance to change gears. I am running out of projects to do with Acadian, French-Canadian, and Métis research, so now I get to do Irish, Scottish, and English research.
>
> Sorry to go on, back to work.

I may have some modest contributions to the Muschamp ancestry, if you would like to get in touch with me at starwarsgeek8@gmail.com. I also have access to the Acadian Archives in Ft. Kent, ME if you would like copies of any materials held here.

Elizabeth A

OK, another odd one. What does P'ff stand for as in: JOHN PELHAM, son of Sir John Pelham and Joan de Courcy, ... P’ff??? for the manor of Trevere, Sussex...

Again, this comes from Comber, Sussex Genealogies, 3:204. I do not have easy access to this book anymore and I deeply regret that I did not photocopy the introductory pages. Perhaps he explains his abbreviations there.

I must say that since I retired I miss one feature of my old job. I worked in a medical library but had unlimited interlibrary loan privileges. I was able to order articles and books I needed for my research and was able to avoid having to travel to distant libraries to retrieve information. I was spoiled. Thankfully a lot of the things I use to order are now available online.

On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 3:41:44 PM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> OK, another odd one. What does P'ff stand for as in: JOHN PELHAM, son of Sir John Pelham and Joan de Courcy, ... P’ff??? for the manor of Trevere, Sussex...
>
> Again, this comes from Comber, Sussex Genealogies, 3:204. I do not have easy access to this book anymore and I deeply regret that I did not photocopy the introductory pages. Perhaps he explains his abbreviations there.
>

Hard to say with so little context. P[lainti]ff? but the syntax is odd for this. Is it possible those were the 'long s'? If so then 'P[atrone]ss for the manor . . .' would work.

This may be relevant:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b7a3dda7-3353-4145-b9a7-4e51e4778280

taf

On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:22:09 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:

> Hard to say with so little context. P[lainti]ff? but the syntax is odd for this. Is it possible those were the 'long s'? If so then 'P[atrone]ss for the manor . . .' would work.
>
> This may be relevant:
> https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b7a3dda7-3353-4145-b9a7-4e51e4778280

Thanks for the link.

To be exact, this relates to John Pelham and not his wife. And the exact quote from Comber would be: "P'ff [with the ff being superscripted and are not long ss] in fine for Trevere, as J. P. junr., 1419/20, and grants same to his son and wife 1449/50;" This John is the son of Sir John Pelham who captured John, King of France, at the Battle of Poitiers.

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 5:19:55 AM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:22:09 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
>
> > Hard to say with so little context. P[lainti]ff? but the syntax is odd for this. Is it possible those were the 'long s'? If so then 'P[atrone]ss for the manor . . .' would work.
> >
> > This may be relevant:
> > https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b7a3dda7-3353-4145-b9a7-4e51e4778280
> Thanks for the link.
>
> To be exact, this relates to John Pelham and not his wife. And the exact quote from Comber would be: "P'ff [with the ff being superscripted and are not long ss] in fine for Trevere, as J. P. junr., 1419/20, and grants same to his son and wife 1449/50;" This John is the son of Sir John Pelham who captured John, King of France, at the Battle of Poitiers.

Definitely plaintiff (i.e. querent) then. Always when you find reference to a fine, you should look and see if there is a published collection of feet of fines for the given county. If quick overview of what is available online is Chris Phillips' site here:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html
with county lists for available feet of fine publications here:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/counties.shtml
Sussex: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/sussex.shtml

He is listing only the British History Online version for the relevant volume (I have sent him an update), but it can also be viewed on Google Books or Family Search:
https://books.google.com/books?id=59hAAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/109713-an-abstract-of-feet-of-fines-relating-to-the-county-of-sussex-vol-23

19 Richard II
2667. WALTER GASCOIGNE, JOHN ROME, clerk, JOHN REDE, JOHN JOYNOUR, clerk, and JOHN BURGOYNE the younger v. HUGH BURNELL, chivaler, and JOYCE his wife, HUGH LA ZOUCHE, chivaler, and JOAN his wife and WILLIAM CROUCHERE, rector of church of Fendrayton; manors of FULBURN called SOUCHEFEE and SWAUESEY and advowsons of priory and chapel of SWAUESEY in Cambridgeshire, manor of ASSHEBY LA ZOUCHE in Leicestershire, and manors of TREUERE and NOTTEBORNE and advowsons of church of CHILTYNGTON and chapel of TREUERE in Sussex; to WALTER, etc., and heirs of JOHN BURGOYNE. (D.C.: File 57. No. 282.)

10 Henry IV
2789. ROBERT RIKEDON, THOMAS REMYS, RICHARD FOX and WILLIAM ALEYN v. HUGH BURNELL, knight; manors of TREUERE, NOTTEBOURNE and CHILTYNGTON, and advowson of church of said manor of CHILTYNGTON which JOHN PELLAM, chivaler, and JOAN his wife hold for the life of JOAN; to THOMAS, etc., and his heirs. (File 82. No. 2.)

7 Henry V
2878. JOHN PELHAM the younger, chivaler, JOHN WALLER, RICHARD LEUERER and PETER ALLERTON, clerk, v. ROBERT RIKEDON; manors of TREUERE, NOTTEBOURNE and CHILTYNGTON, and advowson of church of same manor of CHILTYNGTON, which JOHN PELHAM, knight, father of the said JOHN PELHAM, and JOAN his wife hold for the life of JOAN; to PETER, etc., and his heirs. (File 84. No. 14.)

The original fines themselves, being fictional lawsuits, don't actually express the true nature of the transactions, and so one is always reading into the documents what is really going on. However, the abstracts in this volume are rendered more opaque by their brevity. Given the continuity of Hugh Burnell in the first two, it looks like it may be the same Joan who was wife of Hugh la Zouche in the first, then holding for life in the latter two as the (remarried) wife of John Pelham. The last looks like it may have been designed to convert this life holding into a Pelham inheritance.

The originals are on AALT:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/IndexPri.html

(the numbers are those of the Sussex volume used for convenience here, but not formal cataloguing)
2667: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/CP25(1)/CP25_1_290/IMG_0056.htm (in the 'diverse counties' batch because it deals with properties in several counties, abbreviated D.C. in the Sussex volume)
2789: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_240_80-83/CP25no1no240no82/IMG_0003.htm
2878: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_240_84/CP25no1no240no84/IMG_0017.htm

taf