Hello,

I am BRAND NEW to this world, so please go easy on me. I have only been studying medieval genealogy for about a year, and only in my limited spare time. I am working on an application to the Descendants of Lady Godiva. I have previously established my line up to Joan of Lancaster with other societies.

My question is this: I see that many online resources have the Beauchamp line connecting up through the Braose line, and thus onto Lady Godiva through Bertha of Hereford. However, this seems a bit shaky. I have reviewed prior posts on this group from back in 2017 discussing this issue...but can find nothing more recent. I have several sources naming Bertha de Braose, daughter of William de Braose as the wife of William Bello Campo, (Beauchamp), but this has been debated and the relationships there are unclear.

Here is the line as I have it:

William de Braose = Bertha of Hereford

Were the parents of:

Bertha de Braose = William de Beauchamp

Were the parents of:

Walter de Beauchamp = Joane Mortimer

So...my questions are:

1. Is this accurate? I see it used in countless online resources, but it is poorly documented. While there are several decent sources noting that "Berta / Bertha, daughter of William de Braose, was wife of William Bello Campo (de Beauchamp), I find nothing confirming that Bertha was even an actual daughter of William de Braose AND Bertha of Hereford. Could the "Bertha" who married de Beauchamp be the daughter of a different William de Braose, and as such have no relation to Bertha of Hereford...(thus no link to Lady Godiva)?

Asked more clearly...are there any good sources confirming the link between Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp AND Bertha of Hereford?

Again...my apologies if this has already been ironed out. I could find nothing on this topic more recent than 2017 in this group. I certainly could have missed it though.

Thank you all for any advice you can provide! Have a great Sunday.

V/r

Josh

On Sunday, 27 August 2023 at 18:36:10 UTC+1, Fran Tuck wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am BRAND NEW to this world, so please go easy on me. I have only been studying medieval genealogy for about a year, and only in my limited spare time. I am working on an application to the Descendants of Lady Godiva. I have previously established my line up to Joan of Lancaster with other societies.
>
> My question is this: I see that many online resources have the Beauchamp line connecting up through the Braose line, and thus onto Lady Godiva through Bertha of Hereford. However, this seems a bit shaky. I have reviewed prior posts on this group from back in 2017 discussing this issue...but can find nothing more recent. I have several sources naming Bertha de Braose, daughter of William de Braose as the wife of William Bello Campo, (Beauchamp), but this has been debated and the relationships there are unclear.
>
> Here is the line as I have it:
>
> William de Braose = Bertha of Hereford
>
> Were the parents of:
>
> Bertha de Braose = William de Beauchamp
>
> Were the parents of:
>
> Walter de Beauchamp = Joane Mortimer
>
> So...my questions are:
>
> 1. Is this accurate? I see it used in countless online resources, but it is poorly documented. While there are several decent sources noting that "Berta / Bertha, daughter of William de Braose, was wife of William Bello Campo (de Beauchamp), I find nothing confirming that Bertha was even an actual daughter of William de Braose AND Bertha of Hereford. Could the "Bertha" who married de Beauchamp be the daughter of a different William de Braose, and as such have no relation to Bertha of Hereford...(thus no link to Lady Godiva)?
>
> Asked more clearly...are there any good sources confirming the link between Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp AND Bertha of Hereford?
>
> Again...my apologies if this has already been ironed out. I could find nothing on this topic more recent than 2017 in this group. I certainly could have missed it though.
>
> Thank you all for any advice you can provide! Have a great Sunday.
>
> V/r
>
> Josh

Greetings Josh

I regret that I too am not an experienced researcher in Medieval ancestry. In respect of the Braose family my research suggests the following:

According to Sir John Edward Lloyd in A History of Wales from Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest Vol 2 Sir John Edward Lloyd. Longmans Green & Co 1912. pp547 Bertha was the daughter of Miles de Gloucestershire and Sybille de Neufmarche.

Brock Holden in Lords of the Central Marches English Aristocracy and Frontier Society 1087-1265 Oxford Historical Monographs. Brock W Holden. 9780199548576 pp254 suggests that William II Braose who died c1190 married Bertha de Gloucester.

William and Bertha had a daughter named Bertha de Braose. I regret that I do not have a record of who Bertha married as this is not my line.

However, the following is taken from: The Barons de Braose by Lynda Denyer

The Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp:

“Father: William de Braose, 4th Lord of Bramber
Mother: Matilda de St. Valery
Married to William de Beauchamp (d 1197) of Elmley, Worcs
Child 1: Walter de Beauchamp (d 1235)
The evidence for this marriage is quite complex. There is definitely a marriage between a Bertha de Braose and a Beauchamp but authorities differ as to the details.
The question has been discussed in Sep 2002 on soc.genealogy.medieval. The archives give a good review of the evidence. Thanks to Chris Phillips and Cris Nash for a valuable discussion.
The view I take seems to be the one best supported by the available evidence.
More evidence came to light in June 2017 but it did not alter my conclusion..
Keats-Rohan in Domesday Descendants gives a different view but it is not clear what evidence she uses to come to her position.
The arms shown are attributed to William de Beauchamp in a roll of Ed I. (Foster's Dictionary of Heraldry)”

I trust this helps.

Regards

John

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 3:48:27 PM UTC+2, jdr1...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 27 August 2023 at 18:36:10 UTC+1, Fran Tuck wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am BRAND NEW to this world, so please go easy on me. I have only been studying medieval genealogy for about a year, and only in my limited spare time. I am working on an application to the Descendants of Lady Godiva. I have previously established my line up to Joan of Lancaster with other societies.
> >
> > My question is this: I see that many online resources have the Beauchamp line connecting up through the Braose line, and thus onto Lady Godiva through Bertha of Hereford. However, this seems a bit shaky. I have reviewed prior posts on this group from back in 2017 discussing this issue...but can find nothing more recent. I have several sources naming Bertha de Braose, daughter of William de Braose as the wife of William Bello Campo, (Beauchamp), but this has been debated and the relationships there are unclear.
> >
> > Here is the line as I have it:
> >
> > William de Braose = Bertha of Hereford
> >
> > Were the parents of:
> >
> > Bertha de Braose = William de Beauchamp
> >
> > Were the parents of:
> >
> > Walter de Beauchamp = Joane Mortimer
> >
> > So...my questions are:
> >
> > 1. Is this accurate? I see it used in countless online resources, but it is poorly documented. While there are several decent sources noting that "Berta / Bertha, daughter of William de Braose, was wife of William Bello Campo (de Beauchamp), I find nothing confirming that Bertha was even an actual daughter of William de Braose AND Bertha of Hereford. Could the "Bertha" who married de Beauchamp be the daughter of a different William de Braose, and as such have no relation to Bertha of Hereford...(thus no link to Lady Godiva)?
> >
> > Asked more clearly...are there any good sources confirming the link between Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp AND Bertha of Hereford?
> >
> > Again...my apologies if this has already been ironed out. I could find nothing on this topic more recent than 2017 in this group. I certainly could have missed it though.
> >
> > Thank you all for any advice you can provide! Have a great Sunday.
> >
> > V/r
> >
> > Josh
> Greetings Josh
>
> I regret that I too am not an experienced researcher in Medieval ancestry.. In respect of the Braose family my research suggests the following:
>
> According to Sir John Edward Lloyd in A History of Wales from Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest Vol 2 Sir John Edward Lloyd. Longmans Green & Co 1912. pp547 Bertha was the daughter of Miles de Gloucestershire and Sybille de Neufmarche.
>
> Brock Holden in Lords of the Central Marches English Aristocracy and Frontier Society 1087-1265 Oxford Historical Monographs. Brock W Holden. 9780199548576 pp254 suggests that William II Braose who died c1190 married Bertha de Gloucester.
>
> William and Bertha had a daughter named Bertha de Braose. I regret that I do not have a record of who Bertha married as this is not my line.
>
> However, the following is taken from: The Barons de Braose by Lynda Denyer
>
> The Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp:
>
> “Father: William de Braose, 4th Lord of Bramber
> Mother: Matilda de St. Valery
> Married to William de Beauchamp (d 1197) of Elmley, Worcs
> Child 1: Walter de Beauchamp (d 1235)
> The evidence for this marriage is quite complex. There is definitely a marriage between a Bertha de Braose and a Beauchamp but authorities differ as to the details.
> The question has been discussed in Sep 2002 on soc.genealogy.medieval. The archives give a good review of the evidence. Thanks to Chris Phillips and Cris Nash for a valuable discussion.
> The view I take seems to be the one best supported by the available evidence.
> More evidence came to light in June 2017 but it did not alter my conclusion.
> Keats-Rohan in Domesday Descendants gives a different view but it is not clear what evidence she uses to come to her position.
> The arms shown are attributed to William de Beauchamp in a roll of Ed I. (Foster's Dictionary of Heraldry)”
>
> I trust this helps.
>
> Regards
>
>
> John

Josh because I sense that you want to work out how to solve such questions here is a link to some relevant Wikitree profiles https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Braose-52 and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Braose-8 and I think this "FitzMiles" is your Hereford: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/FitzMiles-14
Wikitree is certainly not always right, but in many pre 1500 profiles like this you can see the notations about questions that might exist. It includes references to this discussion group on SGM.
It is ongoing work, and perhaps if you used to working through such questions you can also play a role in projects like that.

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 12:02:45 PM UTC-7, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 3:48:27 PM UTC+2, jdr1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 27 August 2023 at 18:36:10 UTC+1, Fran Tuck wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I am BRAND NEW to this world, so please go easy on me. I have only been studying medieval genealogy for about a year, and only in my limited spare time. I am working on an application to the Descendants of Lady Godiva. I have previously established my line up to Joan of Lancaster with other societies.
> > >
> > > My question is this: I see that many online resources have the Beauchamp line connecting up through the Braose line, and thus onto Lady Godiva through Bertha of Hereford. However, this seems a bit shaky. I have reviewed prior posts on this group from back in 2017 discussing this issue...but can find nothing more recent. I have several sources naming Bertha de Braose, daughter of William de Braose as the wife of William Bello Campo, (Beauchamp), but this has been debated and the relationships there are unclear.
> > >
> > > Here is the line as I have it:
> > >
> > > William de Braose = Bertha of Hereford
> > >
> > > Were the parents of:
> > >
> > > Bertha de Braose = William de Beauchamp
> > >
> > > Were the parents of:
> > >
> > > Walter de Beauchamp = Joane Mortimer
> > >
> > > So...my questions are:
> > >
> > > 1. Is this accurate? I see it used in countless online resources, but it is poorly documented. While there are several decent sources noting that "Berta / Bertha, daughter of William de Braose, was wife of William Bello Campo (de Beauchamp), I find nothing confirming that Bertha was even an actual daughter of William de Braose AND Bertha of Hereford. Could the "Bertha" who married de Beauchamp be the daughter of a different William de Braose, and as such have no relation to Bertha of Hereford...(thus no link to Lady Godiva)?
> > >
> > > Asked more clearly...are there any good sources confirming the link between Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp AND Bertha of Hereford?
> > >
> > > Again...my apologies if this has already been ironed out. I could find nothing on this topic more recent than 2017 in this group. I certainly could have missed it though.
> > >
> > > Thank you all for any advice you can provide! Have a great Sunday.
> > >
> > > V/r
> > >
> > > Josh
> > Greetings Josh
> >
> > I regret that I too am not an experienced researcher in Medieval ancestry. In respect of the Braose family my research suggests the following:
> >
> > According to Sir John Edward Lloyd in A History of Wales from Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest Vol 2 Sir John Edward Lloyd. Longmans Green & Co 1912. pp547 Bertha was the daughter of Miles de Gloucestershire and Sybille de Neufmarche.
> >
> > Brock Holden in Lords of the Central Marches English Aristocracy and Frontier Society 1087-1265 Oxford Historical Monographs. Brock W Holden. 9780199548576 pp254 suggests that William II Braose who died c1190 married Bertha de Gloucester.
> >
> > William and Bertha had a daughter named Bertha de Braose. I regret that I do not have a record of who Bertha married as this is not my line.
> >
> > However, the following is taken from: The Barons de Braose by Lynda Denyer
> >
> > The Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp:
> >
> > “Father: William de Braose, 4th Lord of Bramber
> > Mother: Matilda de St. Valery
> > Married to William de Beauchamp (d 1197) of Elmley, Worcs
> > Child 1: Walter de Beauchamp (d 1235)
> > The evidence for this marriage is quite complex. There is definitely a marriage between a Bertha de Braose and a Beauchamp but authorities differ as to the details.
> > The question has been discussed in Sep 2002 on soc.genealogy.medieval. The archives give a good review of the evidence. Thanks to Chris Phillips and Cris Nash for a valuable discussion.
> > The view I take seems to be the one best supported by the available evidence.
> > More evidence came to light in June 2017 but it did not alter my conclusion.
> > Keats-Rohan in Domesday Descendants gives a different view but it is not clear what evidence she uses to come to her position.
> > The arms shown are attributed to William de Beauchamp in a roll of Ed I.. (Foster's Dictionary of Heraldry)”
> >
> > I trust this helps.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> > John
> Josh because I sense that you want to work out how to solve such questions here is a link to some relevant Wikitree profiles https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Braose-52 and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Braose-8 and I think this "FitzMiles" is your Hereford: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/FitzMiles-14
> Wikitree is certainly not always right, but in many pre 1500 profiles like this you can see the notations about questions that might exist. It includes references to this discussion group on SGM.
> It is ongoing work, and perhaps if you used to working through such questions you can also play a role in projects like that.

FitzMiles is an odd name given that she is a female
She could be called filiaMiles I suppose but since her father and brother were both successivley Earls of Hereford "of Hereford" is as good a surname as any

See CP here

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Complete_Peerage_of_England_Scotland_Ire/27EKAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=editions:LCCN06022397&printsec=frontcover#PPA12,M1

Since he is supposed to have obtained the Lordship of Brecknock *by* this marriage and that she was a co-heiress it seems like the identification is fairly secure, no?

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 10:36:10 AM UTC-7, Fran Tuck wrote:

> Asked more clearly...are there any good sources confirming the link between Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp AND Bertha of Hereford?

You should probably start by doing an archive dive in this group. Often the most informative discussions are not the most recent ones. A couple of relevant threads:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/29yKxPboF-4
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/3B9_RLZWTgo
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/PiCtYcXgXsg

taf

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 12:25:41 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 12:02:45 PM UTC-7, lancast...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 3:48:27 PM UTC+2, jdr1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 27 August 2023 at 18:36:10 UTC+1, Fran Tuck wrote:
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > I am BRAND NEW to this world, so please go easy on me. I have only been studying medieval genealogy for about a year, and only in my limited spare time. I am working on an application to the Descendants of Lady Godiva.. I have previously established my line up to Joan of Lancaster with other societies.
> > > >
> > > > My question is this: I see that many online resources have the Beauchamp line connecting up through the Braose line, and thus onto Lady Godiva through Bertha of Hereford. However, this seems a bit shaky. I have reviewed prior posts on this group from back in 2017 discussing this issue...but can find nothing more recent. I have several sources naming Bertha de Braose, daughter of William de Braose as the wife of William Bello Campo, (Beauchamp), but this has been debated and the relationships there are unclear.
> > > >
> > > > Here is the line as I have it:
> > > >
> > > > William de Braose = Bertha of Hereford
> > > >
> > > > Were the parents of:
> > > >
> > > > Bertha de Braose = William de Beauchamp
> > > >
> > > > Were the parents of:
> > > >
> > > > Walter de Beauchamp = Joane Mortimer
> > > >
> > > > So...my questions are:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Is this accurate? I see it used in countless online resources, but it is poorly documented. While there are several decent sources noting that "Berta / Bertha, daughter of William de Braose, was wife of William Bello Campo (de Beauchamp), I find nothing confirming that Bertha was even an actual daughter of William de Braose AND Bertha of Hereford. Could the "Bertha" who married de Beauchamp be the daughter of a different William de Braose, and as such have no relation to Bertha of Hereford...(thus no link to Lady Godiva)?
> > > >
> > > > Asked more clearly...are there any good sources confirming the link between Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp AND Bertha of Hereford?
> > > >
> > > > Again...my apologies if this has already been ironed out. I could find nothing on this topic more recent than 2017 in this group. I certainly could have missed it though.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you all for any advice you can provide! Have a great Sunday.
> > > >
> > > > V/r
> > > >
> > > > Josh
> > > Greetings Josh
> > >
> > > I regret that I too am not an experienced researcher in Medieval ancestry. In respect of the Braose family my research suggests the following:
> > >
> > > According to Sir John Edward Lloyd in A History of Wales from Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest Vol 2 Sir John Edward Lloyd. Longmans Green & Co 1912. pp547 Bertha was the daughter of Miles de Gloucestershire and Sybille de Neufmarche.
> > >
> > > Brock Holden in Lords of the Central Marches English Aristocracy and Frontier Society 1087-1265 Oxford Historical Monographs. Brock W Holden. 9780199548576 pp254 suggests that William II Braose who died c1190 married Bertha de Gloucester.
> > >
> > > William and Bertha had a daughter named Bertha de Braose. I regret that I do not have a record of who Bertha married as this is not my line.
> > >
> > > However, the following is taken from: The Barons de Braose by Lynda Denyer
> > >
> > > The Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp:
> > >
> > > “Father: William de Braose, 4th Lord of Bramber
> > > Mother: Matilda de St. Valery
> > > Married to William de Beauchamp (d 1197) of Elmley, Worcs
> > > Child 1: Walter de Beauchamp (d 1235)
> > > The evidence for this marriage is quite complex. There is definitely a marriage between a Bertha de Braose and a Beauchamp but authorities differ as to the details.
> > > The question has been discussed in Sep 2002 on soc.genealogy.medieval.. The archives give a good review of the evidence. Thanks to Chris Phillips and Cris Nash for a valuable discussion.
> > > The view I take seems to be the one best supported by the available evidence.
> > > More evidence came to light in June 2017 but it did not alter my conclusion.
> > > Keats-Rohan in Domesday Descendants gives a different view but it is not clear what evidence she uses to come to her position.
> > > The arms shown are attributed to William de Beauchamp in a roll of Ed I. (Foster's Dictionary of Heraldry)”
> > >
> > > I trust this helps.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> > Josh because I sense that you want to work out how to solve such questions here is a link to some relevant Wikitree profiles https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Braose-52 and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Braose-8 and I think this "FitzMiles" is your Hereford: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/FitzMiles-14
> > Wikitree is certainly not always right, but in many pre 1500 profiles like this you can see the notations about questions that might exist. It includes references to this discussion group on SGM.
> > It is ongoing work, and perhaps if you used to working through such questions you can also play a role in projects like that.
> FitzMiles is an odd name given that she is a female
> She could be called filiaMiles I suppose but since her father and brother were both successivley Earls of Hereford "of Hereford" is as good a surname as any
>
> See CP here
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Complete_Peerage_of_England_Scotland_Ire/27EKAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=editions:LCCN06022397&printsec=frontcover#PPA12,M1
>
> Since he is supposed to have obtained the Lordship of Brecknock *by* this marriage and that she was a co-heiress it seems like the identification is fairly secure, no?

And yet there was a detailed discussion here in 2002 and at least two recent scholars have concluded differently, so perhaps there is more to it than that.
taf

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 3:36:40 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 12:25:41 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
> > On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 12:02:45 PM UTC-7, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 3:48:27 PM UTC+2, jdr1...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, 27 August 2023 at 18:36:10 UTC+1, Fran Tuck wrote:
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am BRAND NEW to this world, so please go easy on me. I have only been studying medieval genealogy for about a year, and only in my limited spare time. I am working on an application to the Descendants of Lady Godiva. I have previously established my line up to Joan of Lancaster with other societies.
> > > > >
> > > > > My question is this: I see that many online resources have the Beauchamp line connecting up through the Braose line, and thus onto Lady Godiva through Bertha of Hereford. However, this seems a bit shaky. I have reviewed prior posts on this group from back in 2017 discussing this issue...but can find nothing more recent. I have several sources naming Bertha de Braose, daughter of William de Braose as the wife of William Bello Campo, (Beauchamp), but this has been debated and the relationships there are unclear.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is the line as I have it:
> > > > >
> > > > > William de Braose = Bertha of Hereford
> > > > >
> > > > > Were the parents of:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bertha de Braose = William de Beauchamp
> > > > >
> > > > > Were the parents of:
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter de Beauchamp = Joane Mortimer
> > > > >
> > > > > So...my questions are:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Is this accurate? I see it used in countless online resources, but it is poorly documented. While there are several decent sources noting that "Berta / Bertha, daughter of William de Braose, was wife of William Bello Campo (de Beauchamp), I find nothing confirming that Bertha was even an actual daughter of William de Braose AND Bertha of Hereford. Could the "Bertha" who married de Beauchamp be the daughter of a different William de Braose, and as such have no relation to Bertha of Hereford...(thus no link to Lady Godiva)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Asked more clearly...are there any good sources confirming the link between Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp AND Bertha of Hereford?
> > > > >
> > > > > Again...my apologies if this has already been ironed out. I could find nothing on this topic more recent than 2017 in this group. I certainly could have missed it though.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you all for any advice you can provide! Have a great Sunday..
> > > > >
> > > > > V/r
> > > > >
> > > > > Josh
> > > > Greetings Josh
> > > >
> > > > I regret that I too am not an experienced researcher in Medieval ancestry. In respect of the Braose family my research suggests the following:
> > > >
> > > > According to Sir John Edward Lloyd in A History of Wales from Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest Vol 2 Sir John Edward Lloyd. Longmans Green & Co 1912. pp547 Bertha was the daughter of Miles de Gloucestershire and Sybille de Neufmarche.
> > > >
> > > > Brock Holden in Lords of the Central Marches English Aristocracy and Frontier Society 1087-1265 Oxford Historical Monographs. Brock W Holden. 9780199548576 pp254 suggests that William II Braose who died c1190 married Bertha de Gloucester.
> > > >
> > > > William and Bertha had a daughter named Bertha de Braose. I regret that I do not have a record of who Bertha married as this is not my line.
> > > >
> > > > However, the following is taken from: The Barons de Braose by Lynda Denyer
> > > >
> > > > The Bertha de Braose who married William de Beauchamp:
> > > >
> > > > “Father: William de Braose, 4th Lord of Bramber
> > > > Mother: Matilda de St. Valery
> > > > Married to William de Beauchamp (d 1197) of Elmley, Worcs
> > > > Child 1: Walter de Beauchamp (d 1235)
> > > > The evidence for this marriage is quite complex. There is definitely a marriage between a Bertha de Braose and a Beauchamp but authorities differ as to the details.
> > > > The question has been discussed in Sep 2002 on soc.genealogy.medieval. The archives give a good review of the evidence. Thanks to Chris Phillips and Cris Nash for a valuable discussion.
> > > > The view I take seems to be the one best supported by the available evidence.
> > > > More evidence came to light in June 2017 but it did not alter my conclusion.
> > > > Keats-Rohan in Domesday Descendants gives a different view but it is not clear what evidence she uses to come to her position.
> > > > The arms shown are attributed to William de Beauchamp in a roll of Ed I. (Foster's Dictionary of Heraldry)”
> > > >
> > > > I trust this helps.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > Josh because I sense that you want to work out how to solve such questions here is a link to some relevant Wikitree profiles https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Braose-52 and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Braose-8 and I think this "FitzMiles" is your Hereford: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/FitzMiles-14
> > > Wikitree is certainly not always right, but in many pre 1500 profiles like this you can see the notations about questions that might exist. It includes references to this discussion group on SGM.
> > > It is ongoing work, and perhaps if you used to working through such questions you can also play a role in projects like that.
> > FitzMiles is an odd name given that she is a female
> > She could be called filiaMiles I suppose but since her father and brother were both successivley Earls of Hereford "of Hereford" is as good a surname as any
> >
> > See CP here
> >
> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Complete_Peerage_of_England_Scotland_Ire/27EKAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=editions:LCCN06022397&printsec=frontcover#PPA12,M1
> >
> > Since he is supposed to have obtained the Lordship of Brecknock *by* this marriage and that she was a co-heiress it seems like the identification is fairly secure, no?
> And yet there was a detailed discussion here in 2002 and at least two recent scholars have concluded differently, so perhaps there is more to it than that.
> taf

Thank you all! This is great information. I can see that I'll have to give up my day job to commit the time that this kind of research requires! I love it though...
Have a great holiday weekend everyone.

V/r

Josh