On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 11:07:55 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 9:58:50 PM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
> > Perhaps Shawn could confirm the parents at the end of the branch found in Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667, folio 15?
> Hi Andrew,
>
> As you mentioned, on page 54 of our book, we illustrate Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add.. 18667, folio 25 verso, The British Library Manuscript Department, Boston Spa, Wetherby, West Yorkshire, UK.
>
> As you requested, we looked at folio 25 recto of the above manuscript, and note that the line continues for one more generation below Antonius Dyot to his son “Richardus Dyot Armiger filius et hares duxit in uxorem Dorotheam filiae et her. Richi Doington.” But this copy of the Weston pedigree does not continue the line of Joan Dyott and her husband, Richard Creswell, on folio 25 recto.
>
> However, the second copy of the Weston Pedigree, Illuminated Genealogy of the Family of Weston of Weston-under-Lizard, co. Stafford, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 74251A, folio 19 recto, The British Library Manuscript Department, Boston Spa, Wetherby, West Yorkshire, UK, does continue the line of Joan Dyott and her husband, Richard Creswell, for another generation to – “Suzana Cresswell nupta 1o Edwardo Elwes de London Armigero demde renupta Johi Curzon militi.”
> I hope this helps.
>
> Shawn

Hi Shawn,

I hope you've been well! I am researching the coat of arms for the Creswells and found some conflicting information about it:

Azure, three plates each charged with a squirrel gules, holding a nut Or
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_History_of_the_Parish_of_Tettenhall_in/N__lAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA89&printsec=frontcover

Gules, three plates each charged with a squirrel gules, cracking a nut (as recorded for George Cresswell in Northumberland)
https://archive.org/details/McGillLibrary-hssl_visitation-yorkshire_CS437Y4A2-19990/page/n171/mode/2up

Gules, three plates each charged with a squirrel sejant of the field (Cresswells of Pinkney park who were the descendants of Richard Cresswell of Barneshurst and Joan Dyott)
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=C8fTAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA281#v=onepage&q&f=false

I was wondering if you had access to the colour copies of the Weston Pedigree pages cited in your post and could confirm the tincture of Cresswell arms and see if a nut is visible (being cracked, held or absent altogether)?

Many thanks,

Andrew

On Thursday, August 31, 2023 at 6:58:25 AM UTC-7, Andrew Z wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 11:07:55 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> > On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 9:58:50 PM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
> > > Perhaps Shawn could confirm the parents at the end of the branch found in Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667, folio 15?
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > As you mentioned, on page 54 of our book, we illustrate Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667, folio 25 verso, The British Library Manuscript Department, Boston Spa, Wetherby, West Yorkshire, UK.
> >
> > As you requested, we looked at folio 25 recto of the above manuscript, and note that the line continues for one more generation below Antonius Dyot to his son “Richardus Dyot Armiger filius et hares duxit in uxorem Dorotheam filiae et her. Richi Doington.” But this copy of the Weston pedigree does not continue the line of Joan Dyott and her husband, Richard Creswell, on folio 25 recto.
> >
> > However, the second copy of the Weston Pedigree, Illuminated Genealogy of the Family of Weston of Weston-under-Lizard, co. Stafford, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 74251A, folio 19 recto, The British Library Manuscript Department, Boston Spa, Wetherby, West Yorkshire, UK, does continue the line of Joan Dyott and her husband, Richard Creswell, for another generation to – “Suzana Cresswell nupta 1o Edwardo Elwes de London Armigero demde renupta Johi Curzon militi.”
> > I hope this helps.
> >
> > Shawn
>
> Hi Shawn,
>
> I hope you've been well! I am researching the coat of arms for the Creswells and found some conflicting information about it:
>
> Azure, three plates each charged with a squirrel gules, holding a nut Or
> https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_History_of_the_Parish_of_Tettenhall_in/N__lAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA89&printsec=frontcover
>
> Gules, three plates each charged with a squirrel gules, cracking a nut (as recorded for George Cresswell in Northumberland)
> https://archive.org/details/McGillLibrary-hssl_visitation-yorkshire_CS437Y4A2-19990/page/n171/mode/2up

You are missing a word here: ". . . each charged with a squirrel sejant gules, . . . "

> Gules, three plates each charged with a squirrel sejant of the field (Cresswells of Pinkney park who were the descendants of Richard Cresswell of Barneshurst and Joan Dyott)
> https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=C8fTAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA281#v=onepage&q&f=false

FWIW, Burke's General Armory assigns the first (blue background) to Creswell of Purston, Northants, and also Creswell of Ravenstone, Leics. The red coat is assigned to Creswell of Pinkney Park, Staffordshire, to which Papworth adds Creswell of Bycock, Northumberland, and families of Norwich, of Yorkshire and of Staffordshire. He also gives one that is Erminois, three torteaux, 2 & 1, each charged with a squirrel sejant argent for Cresswell of Cresswell. There are also two that bear no resemblance to these, one for a Cresswell family of co. Hants temp Ed I that has three bars, and one for a Creswell or Creswyll of unspecified location with three rams heads on a bend.

taf

> You are missing a word here: ". . . each charged with a squirrel sejant gules, . . . "
> > Gules, three plates each charged with a squirrel sejant of the field (Cresswells of Pinkney park who were the descendants of Richard Cresswell of Barneshurst and Joan Dyott)
> > https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=C8fTAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA281#v=onepage&q&f=false
> FWIW, Burke's General Armory assigns the first (blue background) to Creswell of Purston, Northants, and also Creswell of Ravenstone, Leics. The red coat is assigned to Creswell of Pinkney Park, Staffordshire, to which Papworth adds Creswell of Bycock, Northumberland, and families of Norwich, of Yorkshire and of Staffordshire. He also gives one that is Erminois, three torteaux, 2 & 1, each charged with a squirrel sejant argent for Cresswell of Cresswell. There are also two that bear no resemblance to these, one for a Cresswell family of co. Hants temp Ed I that has three bars, and one for a Creswell or Creswyll of unspecified location with three rams heads on a bend..
>
> taf

Many thanks, taf, your help is always very appreciated! I think I was thinking of this letter from the College of Arms when I accidently omitted the word "sejant" above.
According to A.T. Butler, Portcullis, the arms of George Cresswell of Cresswell (co. Northumberland) were recorded in 1584 as gules, three plates each charged with a squirrel gules, cracking a nut of the field.
Pg. 24 of https://www.thebrownlows.com/PDF/The%20Cresswell%20Family%20and%20The%20American%20Criswells%20by%20Edgar%20Golden%20Criswell.pdf

I wonder when these arms were adopted by the Cresswells of Barneshurt since the the funerary monument for the daughter of Catherine Weston and John Dyott, Joan Dyott who married Richard Cresswell, only shows the Dyott and Weston arms. Their descendants, the Cresswells of Pinkney Park, used the arms described in this post, but without the nut (according to Burke's General Armoury that you referenced above and Burke's Landed Gentry).
https://books.google.ca/books?id=N__lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA252&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

All the best!

Andrew

On Sunday, 3 September 2023 at 12:42:01 UTC+1, Andrew Z wrote:
> <snip>
> I wonder when these arms were adopted by the Cresswells of Barneshurt since the the funerary monument for the daughter of Catherine Weston and John Dyott, Joan Dyott who married Richard Cresswell, only shows the Dyott and Weston arms. Their descendants, the Cresswells of Pinkney Park, used the arms described in this post, but without the nut (according to Burke's General Armoury that you referenced above and Burke's Landed Gentry).
> https://books.google.ca/books?id=N__lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA252&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> All the best!
>
> Andrew

The earliest examples of these Creswell arms are to be found in William Jenyns’ Ordinary, dating from somewhere around 1360. The arms are painted, some on banners, most on shields. As an ordinary, it has similar arms arranged together, so the Creswell arms are all in the section covering roundels, although they are not all consecutive. Since the normal way of depicting a squirrel was sitting and holding a nut, those two details were often assumed and therefore omitted. The three entries are:
WJ 775 Creswell: shield painted Gules, three roundels argent each charged with a squirrel sejant holding a nut gules.
WJ 776 Alexander Cressewell: shield painted Gules, three roundels each charged with a squirrel etc. gules, an annulet argent at fess point [in the centre of the shield]
WJ 780 John de Creswell: shield pained Gules, three roundels each charged with a squirrel etc. gules, an annulet argent at fess point
I have not come across any suggestions as to who these three were. My guess is that the first, with just a surname, represents the head of the family branch involved. For the other two, I have come across two or three families where a younger son in one generation had the same differenced arms and the same small manor as a younger son in the next generation. Younger sons, if they couldn't find themselves an heiress, were expected not to marry, to avoid breaking up the family estate.

General rolls of arms like William Jenyns’ Ordinary have to be dated by those armigers mentioned for whom we have dates. The trouble is that the method does not produce precise dates. Wagner (1950), looking at all the rolls he could find, estimated this one at 1377-80. Clemmensen (2008), in a more detailed look at just this roll, estimated the date at around 1360.

Peter Howarth

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 18:29:22 UTC+1, Peter Howarth wrote:
> On Sunday, 3 September 2023 at 12:42:01 UTC+1, Andrew Z wrote:
> > <snip>
> > I wonder when these arms were adopted by the Cresswells of Barneshurt since the the funerary monument for the daughter of Catherine Weston and John Dyott, Joan Dyott who married Richard Cresswell, only shows the Dyott and Weston arms. Their descendants, the Cresswells of Pinkney Park, used the arms described in this post, but without the nut (according to Burke's General Armoury that you referenced above and Burke's Landed Gentry).
> > https://books.google.ca/books?id=N__lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA252&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
> >
> > All the best!
> >
> > Andrew
> The earliest examples of these Creswell arms are to be found in William Jenyns’ Ordinary, dating from somewhere around 1360. The arms are painted, some on banners, most on shields. As an ordinary, it has similar arms arranged together, so the Creswell arms are all in the section covering roundels, although they are not all consecutive. Since the normal way of depicting a squirrel was sitting and holding a nut, those two details were often assumed and therefore omitted. The three entries are:
> WJ 775 Creswell: shield painted Gules, three roundels argent each charged with a squirrel sejant holding a nut gules.
> WJ 776 Alexander Cressewell: shield painted Gules, three roundels each charged with a squirrel etc. gules, an annulet argent at fess point [in the centre of the shield]
> WJ 780 John de Creswell: shield pained Gules, three roundels each charged with a squirrel etc. gules, an annulet argent at fess point
> I have not come across any suggestions as to who these three were. My guess is that the first, with just a surname, represents the head of the family branch involved. For the other two, I have come across two or three families where a younger son in one generation had the same differenced arms and the same small manor as a younger son in the next generation. Younger sons, if they couldn't find themselves an heiress, were expected not to marry, to avoid breaking up the family estate.
>
> General rolls of arms like William Jenyns’ Ordinary have to be dated by those armigers mentioned for whom we have dates. The trouble is that the method does not produce precise dates. Wagner (1950), looking at all the rolls he could find, estimated this one at 1377-80. Clemmensen (2008), in a more detailed look at just this roll, estimated the date at around 1360..
>
> Peter Howarth

My mistake: the roundels should all be blazoned argent.

PH

On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 1:29:22 PM UTC-4, Peter Howarth wrote:
> On Sunday, 3 September 2023 at 12:42:01 UTC+1, Andrew Z wrote:
> > <snip>
> > I wonder when these arms were adopted by the Cresswells of Barneshurt since the the funerary monument for the daughter of Catherine Weston and John Dyott, Joan Dyott who married Richard Cresswell, only shows the Dyott and Weston arms. Their descendants, the Cresswells of Pinkney Park, used the arms described in this post, but without the nut (according to Burke's General Armoury that you referenced above and Burke's Landed Gentry).
> > https://books.google.ca/books?id=N__lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA252&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
> >
> > All the best!
> >
> > Andrew
> The earliest examples of these Creswell arms are to be found in William Jenyns’ Ordinary, dating from somewhere around 1360. The arms are painted, some on banners, most on shields. As an ordinary, it has similar arms arranged together, so the Creswell arms are all in the section covering roundels, although they are not all consecutive. Since the normal way of depicting a squirrel was sitting and holding a nut, those two details were often assumed and therefore omitted. The three entries are:
> WJ 775 Creswell: shield painted Gules, three roundels argent each charged with a squirrel sejant holding a nut gules.
> WJ 776 Alexander Cressewell: shield painted Gules, three roundels each charged with a squirrel etc. gules, an annulet argent at fess point [in the centre of the shield]
> WJ 780 John de Creswell: shield pained Gules, three roundels each charged with a squirrel etc. gules, an annulet argent at fess point
> I have not come across any suggestions as to who these three were. My guess is that the first, with just a surname, represents the head of the family branch involved. For the other two, I have come across two or three families where a younger son in one generation had the same differenced arms and the same small manor as a younger son in the next generation. Younger sons, if they couldn't find themselves an heiress, were expected not to marry, to avoid breaking up the family estate.
>
> General rolls of arms like William Jenyns’ Ordinary have to be dated by those armigers mentioned for whom we have dates. The trouble is that the method does not produce precise dates. Wagner (1950), looking at all the rolls he could find, estimated this one at 1377-80. Clemmensen (2008), in a more detailed look at just this roll, estimated the date at around 1360..
>
> Peter Howarth

Hi Peter,

Thank you so much for posting this information, this is very helpful and interesting. According to the College of Arms Letter I referenced above, the Cresswell arms were entered in 1584 and were then recognized as being the ancient arms of that family. In this case, William Jenyns’ Ordinary seems to confirm that.

Oddly enough (and quite fortunately), the page with the Creswel entries that you referred to can be found in Wikipedia's article on William Jenyns’ Ordinary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinary_of_arms#/media/File:Jenyn's_Ordinary_circa_1360.png

Many thanks again!

Andrew