Well, I have read what everyone said going back to 2004. It is quite the jumble.

First let me say no one has noticed Piers de Braose was two people. They were both married to Joans.

The Hospital of Bidlington was claimed by Piers 1 and his wife Joan in 1305.. The article on Bidlington says that his father was William and De Ros. So I don't know the identity of this Joan.

Source: . 'Hospitals: Bidlington', in A History of the County of Sussex: Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1973), pp. 98-99. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/sussex/vol2/pp98-99 [accessed 9 September 2023]. Piers 1 & Joan 1305,

2ndly, Nicholas De Percy was said to have died dsp.

3rdly, Wiston was Crowngranted to Piers II and his wife Joan about 1357.

Daniel Lysons and Samuel Lysons, 'Parishes: Colyton - Culmstock', in Magna Britannia: Volume 6, Devonshire (London, 1822), pp. 129-151. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp129-151 [accessed 10 September 2023].

4thly, Piers II Braose had a wife Agnes when he died in 1372. She did not have to account to the Crown and there is no mention that Piers had any minor children. Therefore, Beatrice was born 1351 or before. As Shirley's father was in line with being born about 1310-1315 this makes sense.

Agnes was the widow of Henry Hussey, and she had a full gown son Henry Hussey by him. I am not thinking she was the mother.

'Parishes: Freefolk', in A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 4, ed.. William Page (London, 1911), pp. 282-285. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol4/pp282-285 [accessed 9 September 2023].

5thly, Thomas was aged 11 at his father's death in 1311. This is obviously Piers 1. This is also to be found in FMG for Braose. However, the wife Agnes, is for Piers 2. Piers II is not given either, and he is likely the brother of Thomas. The reason is that in 1361 after the death of Thomas, he granted to Beatrice, the widow of Thomas, whose name is Mortimer, several fees. She had a son Thomas who died 1395, and Piers II had no sons obviously,, or he would not have done that. Since Thomas d 1361 was the heir of Piers 1, it follows Piers II was younger. It is strange that he is not mentioned. Thomas was given a new creation of a Baronry in 1340 (CP) for good service.

6th Lysons in Volume 6 Devonshire, gives the inheritance for Whitford, from Foliot to Braose, not Percy. He says Foliot got it from Sanford and them from Basset. This part is still foggy. I don't want to complicate things.

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:19:11 PM UTC+1, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> Well, I have read what everyone said going back to 2004. It is quite the jumble.
>
> First let me say no one has noticed Piers de Braose was two people. They were both married to Joans.
>
> The Hospital of Bidlington was claimed by Piers 1 and his wife Joan in 1305. The article on Bidlington says that his father was William and De Ros. So I don't know the identity of this Joan.
>
> Source: . 'Hospitals: Bidlington', in A History of the County of Sussex: Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1973), pp. 98-99. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/sussex/vol2/pp98-99 [accessed 9 September 2023]. Piers 1 & Joan 1305,

This source does not mention Joan, so you have no evidence that a Peter de Braose was married to a Joan in 1305.

> 2ndly, Nicholas De Percy was said to have died dsp.
>
> 3rdly, Wiston was Crowngranted to Piers II and his wife Joan about 1357.
>
> Daniel Lysons and Samuel Lysons, 'Parishes: Colyton - Culmstock', in Magna Britannia: Volume 6, Devonshire (London, 1822), pp. 129-151. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp129-151 [accessed 10 September 2023].
>
> 4thly, Piers II Braose had a wife Agnes when he died in 1372. She did not have to account to the Crown and there is no mention that Piers had any minor children. Therefore, Beatrice was born 1351 or before. As Shirley's father was in line with being born about 1310-1315 this makes sense.
>
> Agnes was the widow of Henry Hussey, and she had a full gown son Henry Hussey by him. I am not thinking she was the mother.
>
> 'Parishes: Freefolk', in A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 4, ed. William Page (London, 1911), pp. 282-285. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol4/pp282-285 [accessed 9 September 2023].

Can you produce evidence that a Peter de Braose died in 1372? The Sir Peter de Braose who married Agnes died shortly before 7 March 1312:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160418011843/http://freespace.virgin.net/doug..thompson/BraoseWeb/family/peter.html

According to my notes, his younger son Sir Peter de Baose (d.1378) married first Joan de Percy (divorced 1352) and secondly Joan Howard with whom he had Sir John de Braose (c.1357-1426) and Beatrice who married Hugh Shirley.

> 5thly, Thomas was aged 11 at his father's death in 1311. This is obviously Piers 1. This is also to be found in FMG for Braose. However, the wife Agnes, is for Piers 2. Piers II is not given either, and he is likely the brother of Thomas. The reason is that in 1361 after the death of Thomas, he granted to Beatrice, the widow of Thomas, whose name is Mortimer, several fees. She had a son Thomas who died 1395, and Piers II had no sons obviously,, or he would not have done that. Since Thomas d 1361 was the heir of Piers 1, it follows Piers II was younger. It is strange that he is not mentioned. Thomas was given a new creation of a Baronry in 1340 (CP) for good service..
>
> 6th Lysons in Volume 6 Devonshire, gives the inheritance for Whitford, from Foliot to Braose, not Percy. He says Foliot got it from Sanford and them from Basset. This part is still foggy. I don't want to complicate things.

On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 12:17:52 AM UTC-7, William Acton wrote:
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:19:11 PM UTC+1, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > Well, I have read what everyone said going back to 2004. It is quite the jumble.
> >
> > First let me say no one has noticed Piers de Braose was two people. They were both married to Joans.
> >
> > The Hospital of Bidlington was claimed by Piers 1 and his wife Joan in 1305. The article on Bidlington says that his father was William and De Ros.. So I don't know the identity of this Joan.
> >
> > Source: . 'Hospitals: Bidlington', in A History of the County of Sussex: Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1973), pp. 98-99. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/sussex/vol2/pp98-99 [accessed 9 September 2023]. Piers 1 & Joan 1305,
> This source does not mention Joan, so you have no evidence that a Peter de Braose was married to a Joan in 1305.
> > 2ndly, Nicholas De Percy was said to have died dsp.
> >
> > 3rdly, Wiston was Crowngranted to Piers II and his wife Joan about 1357..
> >
> > Daniel Lysons and Samuel Lysons, 'Parishes: Colyton - Culmstock', in Magna Britannia: Volume 6, Devonshire (London, 1822), pp. 129-151. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp129-151 [accessed 10 September 2023].
> >
> > 4thly, Piers II Braose had a wife Agnes when he died in 1372. She did not have to account to the Crown and there is no mention that Piers had any minor children. Therefore, Beatrice was born 1351 or before. As Shirley's father was in line with being born about 1310-1315 this makes sense.
> >
> > Agnes was the widow of Henry Hussey, and she had a full gown son Henry Hussey by him. I am not thinking she was the mother.
> >
> > 'Parishes: Freefolk', in A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 4, ed. William Page (London, 1911), pp. 282-285. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol4/pp282-285 [accessed 9 September 2023].
> Can you produce evidence that a Peter de Braose died in 1372? The Sir Peter de Braose who married Agnes died shortly before 7 March 1312:
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20160418011843/http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/family/peter.html
>
> According to my notes, his younger son Sir Peter de Baose (d.1378) married first Joan de Percy (divorced 1352) and secondly Joan Howard with whom he had Sir John de Braose (c.1357-1426) and Beatrice who married Hugh Shirley..
> > 5thly, Thomas was aged 11 at his father's death in 1311. This is obviously Piers 1. This is also to be found in FMG for Braose. However, the wife Agnes, is for Piers 2. Piers II is not given either, and he is likely the brother of Thomas. The reason is that in 1361 after the death of Thomas, he granted to Beatrice, the widow of Thomas, whose name is Mortimer, several fees. She had a son Thomas who died 1395, and Piers II had no sons obviously,, or he would not have done that. Since Thomas d 1361 was the heir of Piers 1, it follows Piers II was younger. It is strange that he is not mentioned. Thomas was given a new creation of a Baronry in 1340 (CP) for good service.
> >
> > 6th Lysons in Volume 6 Devonshire, gives the inheritance for Whitford, from Foliot to Braose, not Percy. He says Foliot got it from Sanford and them from Basset. This part is still foggy. I don't want to complicate things..

Quite right I was just going to point out that no Joan is mentioned as well in 1305
the elder Piers was possibly

Peter de /Braose/ of Tetbury, co Glouc (by gift of his half-brother); Knt
heir of his brother Richard "aged 23" 1295
died Bef 7 Feb 1311 "Ob 4E2"
married
Agnes de /Clifford/
living in 1312

His parents were
William de /Braose/ of Bramber
died Bef 6 Jan 1290/1291 Findon, Sussex
and
Mary /Ros/ of Bramley, co Surrey 1271-93, 1326
died May 1326 19E2; seized of Bramley, co Surrey; heir was her grandson Thomas

On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 6:35:05 AM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 12:17:52 AM UTC-7, William Acton wrote:
> > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:19:11 PM UTC+1, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > > Well, I have read what everyone said going back to 2004. It is quite the jumble.
> > >
> > > First let me say no one has noticed Piers de Braose was two people. They were both married to Joans.
> > >
> > > The Hospital of Bidlington was claimed by Piers 1 and his wife Joan in 1305. The article on Bidlington says that his father was William and De Ros. So I don't know the identity of this Joan.
> > >
> > > Source: . 'Hospitals: Bidlington', in A History of the County of Sussex: Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1973), pp. 98-99. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/sussex/vol2/pp98-99 [accessed 9 September 2023]. Piers 1 & Joan 1305,
> > This source does not mention Joan, so you have no evidence that a Peter de Braose was married to a Joan in 1305.
> > > 2ndly, Nicholas De Percy was said to have died dsp.
> > >
> > > 3rdly, Wiston was Crowngranted to Piers II and his wife Joan about 1357.
> > >
> > > Daniel Lysons and Samuel Lysons, 'Parishes: Colyton - Culmstock', in Magna Britannia: Volume 6, Devonshire (London, 1822), pp. 129-151. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp129-151 [accessed 10 September 2023].
> > >
> > > 4thly, Piers II Braose had a wife Agnes when he died in 1372. She did not have to account to the Crown and there is no mention that Piers had any minor children. Therefore, Beatrice was born 1351 or before. As Shirley's father was in line with being born about 1310-1315 this makes sense.
> > >
> > > Agnes was the widow of Henry Hussey, and she had a full gown son Henry Hussey by him. I am not thinking she was the mother.
> > >
> > > 'Parishes: Freefolk', in A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 4, ed. William Page (London, 1911), pp. 282-285. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol4/pp282-285 [accessed 9 September 2023].
> > Can you produce evidence that a Peter de Braose died in 1372? The Sir Peter de Braose who married Agnes died shortly before 7 March 1312:
> >
> > https://web.archive.org/web/20160418011843/http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/family/peter.html
> >
> > According to my notes, his younger son Sir Peter de Baose (d.1378) married first Joan de Percy (divorced 1352) and secondly Joan Howard with whom he had Sir John de Braose (c.1357-1426) and Beatrice who married Hugh Shirley.
> > > 5thly, Thomas was aged 11 at his father's death in 1311. This is obviously Piers 1. This is also to be found in FMG for Braose. However, the wife Agnes, is for Piers 2. Piers II is not given either, and he is likely the brother of Thomas. The reason is that in 1361 after the death of Thomas, he granted to Beatrice, the widow of Thomas, whose name is Mortimer, several fees. She had a son Thomas who died 1395, and Piers II had no sons obviously,, or he would not have done that. Since Thomas d 1361 was the heir of Piers 1, it follows Piers II was younger. It is strange that he is not mentioned. Thomas was given a new creation of a Baronry in 1340 (CP) for good service.
> > >
> > > 6th Lysons in Volume 6 Devonshire, gives the inheritance for Whitford, from Foliot to Braose, not Percy. He says Foliot got it from Sanford and them from Basset. This part is still foggy. I don't want to complicate things.
> Quite right I was just going to point out that no Joan is mentioned as well in 1305
> the elder Piers was possibly
>
> Peter de /Braose/ of Tetbury, co Glouc (by gift of his half-brother); Knt
> heir of his brother Richard "aged 23" 1295
> died Bef 7 Feb 1311 "Ob 4E2"
> married
> Agnes de /Clifford/
> living in 1312
>
> His parents were
> William de /Braose/ of Bramber
> died Bef 6 Jan 1290/1291 Findon, Sussex
> and
> Mary /Ros/ of Bramley, co Surrey 1271-93, 1326
> died May 1326 19E2; seized of Bramley, co Surrey; heir was her grandson Thomas

This Peter who was of William and De Ros, as you said, appeared with a wife Joan in 1305, as he was taking back possession of Bedlington Hospital, which he claimed to be a Manor not a hospital, in spite of the fact his father William had increased its endowment from 1280 to 1305. I would expect that this Joan was his widow. Agnes was the widow in 1372 of Piers II. His first wife Joan, who I am advised by Lysons was Joan Foliot was living in 1346 and 1357 but died before he did in 1372. Thanks for your comments.

Re Pier II's DOD , the source I provided with Agnes, had her applying for dower against Henry her son from her first marriage to Henry who died 1290. Henry in 1346 gave her dower. She was the widow of Piers likely the one who had married Joan who he was married to in 1305. She would not be the Widow of Piers II. I made a mistake with my dates.

I am not sure the exact date of Piers II other than that he lived beyond 1361 when he gave Beatrice De Mortimer lands. I would have to assume that this Agnes had no children with Piers Braose who were living in 1346. Both Thomas and Piers were living at that time, and that makes me believe they were not her sons. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Only Piers and Joan 1305. Hospital of Bedlington.

I am not sure how these posts work, so forgive me if it is hard to follow - but this was in response to William's comment re DOD for Piers.

was two people. They were both married to Joans.
> > > >
> > > > The Hospital of Bidlington was claimed by Piers 1 and his wife Joan in 1305. The article on Bidlington says that his father was William and De Ros. So I don't know the identity of this Joan.
> > > >
> > > > Source: . 'Hospitals: Bidlington', in A History of the County of Sussex: Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1973), pp. 98-99. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/sussex/vol2/pp98-99 [accessed 9 September 2023]. Piers 1 & Joan 1305,
> > > This source does not mention Joan, so you have no evidence that a Peter de Braose was married to a Joan in 1305.

You are correct, somehow I picked this up and thought it came from this document , but in mind's eye it was in a Footnote but it is obviously not in this document. I will go back through my documents, which I kept filed away, and see if I can find it. In the very least, if this was not Joan, why then did Agnes not seek her dowry from Thomas or Piers II. I am quite happy to substitute Joan?? for Agnes De Clifford if I can be happy with the evidence that points to the marriage. Do you have any evidence for that union?

As to other comments re Joan Howard or Joan of Nicholas De Percy -- that Nicholas is noted as dsp on the Pedigree of Percy of Kildale. [History of Cleveland, P 426 and 427] No one in this family claims this.

Further, Lysons Vol 6 says Whitford came through Foliot. They follow the title back through Sandford als Sampford, and back to Basset. This path is evident, even though I have not traced that Basset backwards to the Thomas who initially owned it. How did Joan De Percy or Joan De Howard, if they did exist, well how did they get Whitford? Other than people comments that they think it is this or that, no one has given a shred of evidence for either of these two ladies.

On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 12:17:52 AM UTC-7, William Acton wrote:
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:19:11 PM UTC+1, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > Well, I have read what everyone said going back to 2004. It is quite the jumble.
> >
> > First let me say no one has noticed Piers de Braose was two people. They were both married to Joans.
> >
> > The Hospital of Bidlington was claimed by Piers 1 and his wife Joan in 1305. The article on Bidlington says that his father was William and De Ros.. So I don't know the identity of this Joan.
> >
> > Source: . 'Hospitals: Bidlington', in A History of the County of Sussex: Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1973), pp. 98-99. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/sussex/vol2/pp98-99 [accessed 9 September 2023]. Piers 1 & Joan 1305,
> This source does not mention Joan, so you have no evidence that a Peter de Braose was married to a Joan in 1305.

> > 2ndly, Nicholas De Percy was said to have died dsp.
> >
> > 3rdly, Wiston was Crowngranted to Piers II and his wife Joan about 1357..
> >
> > Daniel Lysons and Samuel Lysons, 'Parishes: Colyton - Culmstock', in Magna Britannia: Volume 6, Devonshire (London, 1822), pp. 129-151. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp129-151 [accessed 10 September 2023].
> >
> > 4thly, Piers II Braose had a wife Agnes when he died in 1372. She did not have to account to the Crown and there is no mention that Piers had any minor children. Therefore, Beatrice was born 1351 or before. As Shirley's father was in line with being born about 1310-1315 this makes sense.
> >
> > Agnes was the widow of Henry Hussey, and she had a full gown son Henry Hussey by him. I am not thinking she was the mother.
> >
> > 'Parishes: Freefolk', in A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 4, ed. William Page (London, 1911), pp. 282-285. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol4/pp282-285 [accessed 9 September 2023].
> Can you produce evidence that a Peter de Braose died in 1372? The Sir Peter de Braose who married Agnes died shortly before 7 March 1312:
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20160418011843/http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/family/peter.html
>
> According to my notes, his younger son Sir Peter de Baose (d.1378) married first Joan de Percy (divorced 1352) and secondly Joan Howard with whom he had Sir John de Braose (c.1357-1426) and Beatrice who married Hugh Shirley..
> > 5thly, Thomas was aged 11 at his father's death in 1311. This is obviously Piers 1. This is also to be found in FMG for Braose. However, the wife Agnes, is for Piers 2. Piers II is not given either, and he is likely the brother of Thomas. The reason is that in 1361 after the death of Thomas, he granted to Beatrice, the widow of Thomas, whose name is Mortimer, several fees. She had a son Thomas who died 1395, and Piers II had no sons obviously,, or he would not have done that. Since Thomas d 1361 was the heir of Piers 1, it follows Piers II was younger. It is strange that he is not mentioned. Thomas was given a new creation of a Baronry in 1340 (CP) for good service.
> >
> > 6th Lysons in Volume 6 Devonshire, gives the inheritance for Whitford, from Foliot to Braose, not Percy. He says Foliot got it from Sanford and them from Basset. This part is still foggy. I don't want to complicate things..

Re: Piers and Joan 1305

You are right. In my mind's eye, I remember this from a footnote, and it is obviously not in this document. So if I cannot find it, can you support Alice De Clifford who is living 1312, as being the wife of this Piers. Do you have any evidence, beyond notes from groups that suggest that this might be true.
Re: According to my notes, his younger son Sir Peter de Baose (d.1378) married first Joan de Percy (divorced 1352) and secondly Joan Howard with whom he had Sir John de Braose (c.1357-1426) and Beatrice who married Hugh Shirley.

History of Cleveland, P 426-427 shows Nicholas De Percy of Kildale, as DSP. They do not claim any match.

Lysons Vol 6 points that Whitford came from FOLIOT not Percy and not Howard.. From Foliot it came from Sampford als Sandford, and from them Basset, particularly Thomas Basset. The Foliot marriage to Auda Sampford has been found, and the Sampford marriage with a Basset. However, I have not tracked down that Basset with Thomas Basset who originally owned the land. That is why I said it is still fuzzy.

Do you have any hard primary evidence of Joan Howard or Joan De Percy? Because I am not looking in that direction at this point without something tangible.

As far as Agnes de Clifford is concerned, I would not be willing to change what I have without some evidence. I am not saying she is not right, but I don't move my mountains on hearsay. Would love to get some, as I would prefer a name to Joan???

..
>
> Lysons Vol 6 points that Whitford came from FOLIOT not Percy and not Howard. From Foliot it came from Sampford als Sandford, and from them Basset, particularly Thomas Basset. The Foliot marriage to Auda Sampford has been found, and the Sampford marriage with a Basset. However, I have not tracked down that Basset with Thomas Basset who originally owned the land. That is why I said it is still fuzzy.
>
THIS IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE:

The manor of Colyton was in the crown at the time that the survey of Domesday was taken. King Henry II., granted it to Sir Alan de Dunstanville. His son, Walter, gave it to Sir Thomas Basset his nephew, together with that of Whitford. (fn. n7) One of the co-heiresses of Thomas Basset brought a moiety of the manor of Colyton to Sir William Courtenay; and in the reign of Edward II., his descendant, the Earl of Devonshire, purchased the remaining moiety of the representatives of the other co-heiress. Whitford passed by marriage to the Sandfords, whose heiress married Foliot, and afterwards Brewose. The manor of Whitford, with a moiety of the hundred of Colyton, was confirmed to Peter Brewose and Joan his wife (heiress of Sandford) in 1346. (fn.. n8)

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 9:25:39 PM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> .
> >
> > Lysons Vol 6 points that Whitford came from FOLIOT not Percy and not Howard. From Foliot it came from Sampford als Sandford, and from them Basset, particularly Thomas Basset. The Foliot marriage to Auda Sampford has been found, and the Sampford marriage with a Basset. However, I have not tracked down that Basset with Thomas Basset who originally owned the land. That is why I said it is still fuzzy.
> >
> THIS IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE:
>
> The manor of Colyton was in the crown at the time that the survey of Domesday was taken. King Henry II., granted it to Sir Alan de Dunstanville. His son, Walter, gave it to Sir Thomas Basset his nephew, together with that of Whitford. (fn. n7) One of the co-heiresses of Thomas Basset brought a moiety of the manor of Colyton to Sir William Courtenay; and in the reign of Edward II., his descendant, the Earl of Devonshire, purchased the remaining moiety of the representatives of the other co-heiress. Whitford passed by marriage to the Sandfords, whose heiress married Foliot, and afterwards Brewose. The manor of Whitford, with a moiety of the hundred of Colyton, was confirmed to Peter Brewose and Joan his wife (heiress of Sandford) in 1346. (fn. n8)

I failed to mention last night that the Earl of Devonshire was actually Baldwin De Rivers, whose family through the Courtneys were the Overlords of this area. In the Inquistiion for Baldwin De Rivers, he was found in his Inquisition in 1265 to be holding the overlord of some lands held by Sampson Foliot of Noke, Oxford. Baldwin died 1265 and Sampson died 1285. Samson had only girls to pass on his estates to. He was a representative of Foliot of Noke, Oxford. Therefore, it is most likely our Foliots came from this branch, but that is also not certain.

'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry III, File 29', in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem: Volume 1, Henry III, ed. J E E S Sharp (London, 1904), pp. 171-177. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol1/pp171-177 [accessed 10 September 2023]. Fersedon manor, Devon. 100s. land held by Samson Foliot

Joan Foliot's path backwards is not certain. Walter Foliot is said to be her father, and his wife was Ada Sampford. The father of Walter was said to be Laurence Foliot and Hawise Basset.
This is the source for Laurence and Hawise only. I won't accept this line as completely solid from Joan, until I find the way backwards from them to Thomas. Timeways, I have left this arm of the investigation to my future investigation of Foliot family, but if anybody has this evidence, I would love to have it.

'Melbury Sampford', in An Inventory of the Historical Monuments in Dorset, Volume 1, West (London, 1952), pp. 161-167. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/dorset/vol1/pp161-167 [accessed 10 September 2023].

When they say that the Courtenays had a moiety in the Manor of Whitford, then purchased the rest, and that went to Sampford/Sandford -- That is the part that makes this route from Foliot unsteady I have not located the William Courtenay at this point. This is the part that is really open to discussions for me.

I also have concentrated little time on Agnes or Joan of the first Peter, as my focal point was the 2nd Peter's Joan. I went back and looked at the dates in the documents. My date of death - for Peter 2 - I did not have one. I had later than 1372, as that is the date that he gave Beatrice the lands. It would be lovely to get that deed or grant. Thomas was born 1301, as he was aged 10 at his father's death. This is how we know when Peter 1 died. It appears someone has an Inquisition for Peter I, but the spellings of the names make it incredibly difficult to find. FMG shows the wife as Agnes. It is now clear that this is Peter 1, and this article stops here just showing Thomas, Beatrice and John.

I have a lot of family in Devon and Cornwall. I have recognized that families from Dorset and Somerset have married with Devon families on a frequent basis. It is not unheard of at all. Neither does it make it 100% correct, just by that fact.

On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 8:30:46 AM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 9:25:39 PM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > .
> > >
> > > Lysons Vol 6 points that Whitford came from FOLIOT not Percy and not Howard. From Foliot it came from Sampford als Sandford, and from them Basset, particularly Thomas Basset. The Foliot marriage to Auda Sampford has been found, and the Sampford marriage with a Basset. However, I have not tracked down that Basset with Thomas Basset who originally owned the land. That is why I said it is still fuzzy.
> > >
> > THIS IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE:
> >
> > The manor of Colyton was in the crown at the time that the survey of Domesday was taken. King Henry II., granted it to Sir Alan de Dunstanville. His son, Walter, gave it to Sir Thomas Basset his nephew, together with that of Whitford. (fn. n7) One of the co-heiresses of Thomas Basset brought a moiety of the manor of Colyton to Sir William Courtenay; and in the reign of Edward II., his descendant, the Earl of Devonshire, purchased the remaining moiety of the representatives of the other co-heiress. Whitford passed by marriage to the Sandfords, whose heiress married Foliot, and afterwards Brewose. The manor of Whitford, with a moiety of the hundred of Colyton, was confirmed to Peter Brewose and Joan his wife (heiress of Sandford) in 1346. (fn. n8)
> I failed to mention last night that the Earl of Devonshire was actually Baldwin De Rivers, whose family through the Courtneys were the Overlords of this area. In the Inquistiion for Baldwin De Rivers, he was found in his Inquisition in 1265 to be holding the overlord of some lands held by Sampson Foliot of Noke, Oxford. Baldwin died 1265 and Sampson died 1285. Samson had only girls to pass on his estates to. He was a representative of Foliot of Noke, Oxford. Therefore, it is most likely our Foliots came from this branch, but that is also not certain.
>
> 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry III, File 29', in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem: Volume 1, Henry III, ed. J E E S Sharp (London, 1904), pp. 171-177. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol1/pp171-177 [accessed 10 September 2023]. Fersedon manor, Devon.. 100s. land held by Samson Foliot
>
> Joan Foliot's path backwards is not certain. Walter Foliot is said to be her father, and his wife was Ada Sampford. The father of Walter was said to be Laurence Foliot and Hawise Basset.
>
> This is the source for Laurence and Hawise only. I won't accept this line as completely solid from Joan, until I find the way backwards from them to Thomas. Timeways, I have left this arm of the investigation to my future investigation of Foliot family, but if anybody has this evidence, I would love to have it.
>
> 'Melbury Sampford', in An Inventory of the Historical Monuments in Dorset, Volume 1, West (London, 1952), pp. 161-167. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/dorset/vol1/pp161-167 [accessed 10 September 2023].
>
> When they say that the Courtenays had a moiety in the Manor of Whitford, then purchased the rest, and that went to Sampford/Sandford -- That is the part that makes this route from Foliot unsteady I have not located the William Courtenay at this point. This is the part that is really open to discussions for me.
>
> I also have concentrated little time on Agnes or Joan of the first Peter, as my focal point was the 2nd Peter's Joan. I went back and looked at the dates in the documents. My date of death - for Peter 2 - I did not have one.. I had later than 1372, as that is the date that he gave Beatrice the lands. It would be lovely to get that deed or grant. Thomas was born 1301, as he was aged 10 at his father's death. This is how we know when Peter 1 died. It appears someone has an Inquisition for Peter I, but the spellings of the names make it incredibly difficult to find. FMG shows the wife as Agnes. It is now clear that this is Peter 1, and this article stops here just showing Thomas, Beatrice and John.
>
> I have a lot of family in Devon and Cornwall. I have recognized that families from Dorset and Somerset have married with Devon families on a frequent basis. It is not unheard of at all. Neither does it make it 100% correct, just by that fact.

I have just found Henry Hussey, who died 1290 and his wife Agnes. This article is about Hungerford, and it says that Henry Hussey's son Henry was called to Parliament as a Knight in 1295. If this Agnes married Pierre De Braose, my thinking is that this was a 3rd Pierre, as she was not child bearing age in 1301. It bothered me that Agnes's first husband died in 1290, and then she was given dower in 1346? She may have lived that long,- and she may have had a life estate from that family, but she would be born about 1245.

The manor of South Standen seems to have belonged in the 12th century to
Henry Hussey of Harting (co. Sussex), C 1120 – aft 1165
who founded Dureford Abbey in 1165 and granted to it the chapel of Standen.. (fn. 339)
Henry Hussey, his Son C 1150-Aft 1199 married Clementia, of John Port
who was holding Standen in 1199, (fn. 340) confirmed his father's gift about 1189–1204.
William Hussey C 1170-1217 was followed
Henry Hussey C 1190- 1235 married Cecilia unknown
Matthew, his son C 1220- 1253 who was holding this (wife may be Maud wife of William Paynel)
Henry Hussey of Harting, his son C 1240-1290 whose widow was Agnes
who in 1268 made an exchange of lands with Maud wife of William Paynel, possibly his father's widow. He received a grant of free warren here in 1271 and died in 1290.
Standen was assigned in dower to his widow Agnes. (fn. 350)
His son Henry C 1265- 1332 was summoned to Parliament as Lord Hussey in 1295 when a third of the manor was assigned in dower to his widow Isabel.
His son Henry second Lord Hussey leased certain lands here to Isabel widow of Roger de Stokke, but in 1336 came with armed followers and seized and destroyed the deed.
Henry settled half the manor in 1347 (fn. 355) on himself for life with remainder to one of his younger sons, Richard, and contingent remainders to his issue by Catherine, his second wife; he died in 1349 (fn. 356) without leaving any issue by Catherine, and Richard inherited this moiety, (fn. 357) of which he died seised in 1361

'Parishes: Hungerford', in A History of the County of Berkshire: Volume 4, ed. William Page and P H Ditchfield (London, 1924), pp. 183-200. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/berks/vol4/pp183-200 [accessed 16 September 2023].

On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 10:05:08 AM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 8:30:46 AM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 9:25:39 PM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > > .
> > > >
> > > > Lysons Vol 6 points that Whitford came from FOLIOT not Percy and not Howard. From Foliot it came from Sampford als Sandford, and from them Basset, particularly Thomas Basset. The Foliot marriage to Auda Sampford has been found, and the Sampford marriage with a Basset. However, I have not tracked down that Basset with Thomas Basset who originally owned the land. That is why I said it is still fuzzy.
> > > >
> > > THIS IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE:
> > >
> > > The manor of Colyton was in the crown at the time that the survey of Domesday was taken. King Henry II., granted it to Sir Alan de Dunstanville. His son, Walter, gave it to Sir Thomas Basset his nephew, together with that of Whitford. (fn. n7) One of the co-heiresses of Thomas Basset brought a moiety of the manor of Colyton to Sir William Courtenay; and in the reign of Edward II., his descendant, the Earl of Devonshire, purchased the remaining moiety of the representatives of the other co-heiress. Whitford passed by marriage to the Sandfords, whose heiress married Foliot, and afterwards Brewose. The manor of Whitford, with a moiety of the hundred of Colyton, was confirmed to Peter Brewose and Joan his wife (heiress of Sandford) in 1346. (fn. n8)
> > I failed to mention last night that the Earl of Devonshire was actually Baldwin De Rivers, whose family through the Courtneys were the Overlords of this area. In the Inquistiion for Baldwin De Rivers, he was found in his Inquisition in 1265 to be holding the overlord of some lands held by Sampson Foliot of Noke, Oxford. Baldwin died 1265 and Sampson died 1285. Samson had only girls to pass on his estates to. He was a representative of Foliot of Noke, Oxford. Therefore, it is most likely our Foliots came from this branch, but that is also not certain.
> >
> > 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry III, File 29', in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem: Volume 1, Henry III, ed. J E E S Sharp (London, 1904), pp.. 171-177. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol1/pp171-177 [accessed 10 September 2023]. Fersedon manor, Devon. 100s. land held by Samson Foliot
> >
> > Joan Foliot's path backwards is not certain. Walter Foliot is said to be her father, and his wife was Ada Sampford. The father of Walter was said to be Laurence Foliot and Hawise Basset.
> >
> > This is the source for Laurence and Hawise only. I won't accept this line as completely solid from Joan, until I find the way backwards from them to Thomas. Timeways, I have left this arm of the investigation to my future investigation of Foliot family, but if anybody has this evidence, I would love to have it.
> >
> > 'Melbury Sampford', in An Inventory of the Historical Monuments in Dorset, Volume 1, West (London, 1952), pp. 161-167. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/dorset/vol1/pp161-167 [accessed 10 September 2023].
> >
> > When they say that the Courtenays had a moiety in the Manor of Whitford, then purchased the rest, and that went to Sampford/Sandford -- That is the part that makes this route from Foliot unsteady I have not located the William Courtenay at this point. This is the part that is really open to discussions for me.
> >
> > I also have concentrated little time on Agnes or Joan of the first Peter, as my focal point was the 2nd Peter's Joan. I went back and looked at the dates in the documents. My date of death - for Peter 2 - I did not have one. I had later than 1372, as that is the date that he gave Beatrice the lands. It would be lovely to get that deed or grant. Thomas was born 1301, as he was aged 10 at his father's death. This is how we know when Peter 1 died. It appears someone has an Inquisition for Peter I, but the spellings of the names make it incredibly difficult to find. FMG shows the wife as Agnes.. It is now clear that this is Peter 1, and this article stops here just showing Thomas, Beatrice and John.
> >
> > I have a lot of family in Devon and Cornwall. I have recognized that families from Dorset and Somerset have married with Devon families on a frequent basis. It is not unheard of at all. Neither does it make it 100% correct, just by that fact.
> I have just found Henry Hussey, who died 1290 and his wife Agnes. This article is about Hungerford, and it says that Henry Hussey's son Henry was called to Parliament as a Knight in 1295. If this Agnes married Pierre De Braose, my thinking is that this was a 3rd Pierre, as she was not child bearing age in 1301. It bothered me that Agnes's first husband died in 1290, and then she was given dower in 1346? She may have lived that long,- and she may have had a life estate from that family, but she would be born about 1245..
>
>
> The manor of South Standen seems to have belonged in the 12th century to
> Henry Hussey of Harting (co. Sussex), C 1120 – aft 1165
> who founded Dureford Abbey in 1165 and granted to it the chapel of Standen. (fn. 339)
> Henry Hussey, his Son C 1150-Aft 1199 married Clementia, of John Port
> who was holding Standen in 1199, (fn. 340) confirmed his father's gift about 1189–1204.
> William Hussey C 1170-1217 was followed
> Henry Hussey C 1190- 1235 married Cecilia unknown
> Matthew, his son C 1220- 1253 who was holding this (wife may be Maud wife of William Paynel)
> Henry Hussey of Harting, his son C 1240-1290 whose widow was Agnes
> who in 1268 made an exchange of lands with Maud wife of William Paynel, possibly his father's widow. He received a grant of free warren here in 1271 and died in 1290.
> Standen was assigned in dower to his widow Agnes. (fn. 350)
> His son Henry C 1265- 1332 was summoned to Parliament as Lord Hussey in 1295 when a third of the manor was assigned in dower to his widow Isabel.
> His son Henry second Lord Hussey leased certain lands here to Isabel widow of Roger de Stokke, but in 1336 came with armed followers and seized and destroyed the deed.
> Henry settled half the manor in 1347 (fn. 355) on himself for life with remainder to one of his younger sons, Richard, and contingent remainders to his issue by Catherine, his second wife; he died in 1349 (fn. 356) without leaving any issue by Catherine, and Richard inherited this moiety, (fn. 357) of which he died seised in 1361
>
> 'Parishes: Hungerford', in A History of the County of Berkshire: Volume 4, ed. William Page and P H Ditchfield (London, 1924), pp. 183-200. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/berks/vol4/pp183-200 [accessed 16 September 2023].

Okay, so the drumroll please.......

Collection towards a Description of the County of Devon Page 40-41 Thomas Basset of Coliton (Whitford) was Lord in the time of King Richard I. (1189-1199)
Page 42, Thomas Basset now styled of Whitford, in the time of King John. (1199-1216)
Page 86/135-136. Thomas Basset married Philippa of William Malbedinge, of Nantwich, Cheshire, and had:
1.Alice married 3 times:
A. William Lord Malet;
B. Thomas Sandford; and
C. John Biset.
2. Philippa (no husband given)
3. Joan, married to
A. Reginald De Valletort; and
B. Sir William Courtenay, brother of John, Lord Courtenay.

Alice and Joan collectively held Coliton, and Joan gave her portion to his husband, Sir William Courtenay, and died without issue.
Courtenays continued in their portion of the Moiety, and Alice’s issue continued in her moiety until the time of Edward II. [1307-1327] when the whole continued in the line of Courtenay until the attainter of Henry Marquess of Exon.
The 4 sisters of Edward, Earl of Devon restored by Queen Mary were the heirs of any property not aliented.
1. Arundel of Talvern
2. Trelawny,
3. Heiress of Trethurs, namely Courtenay of Landrake and Vivian; and
4. Mohun
Whitford: Page 136
Laurence Sandford was the son of Thomas Sandford and Alice Basset. ( 136) and he had issue Thomas Sandford who died without issue, and Alda Sandford who married Walter Foliot and 2ndly to Sir Peter Brewes. After this it became the Earls of Devon.

So Alda, was the wife of Peter Brewes 1, and Joan remains a mystery. But Joan was not the heiress of Whitford.

Betty

On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 12:11:16 PM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 10:05:08 AM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 8:30:46 AM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 9:25:39 PM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > > Lysons Vol 6 points that Whitford came from FOLIOT not Percy and not Howard. From Foliot it came from Sampford als Sandford, and from them Basset, particularly Thomas Basset. The Foliot marriage to Auda Sampford has been found, and the Sampford marriage with a Basset. However, I have not tracked down that Basset with Thomas Basset who originally owned the land. That is why I said it is still fuzzy.
> > > > >
> > > > THIS IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE:
> > > >
> > > > The manor of Colyton was in the crown at the time that the survey of Domesday was taken. King Henry II., granted it to Sir Alan de Dunstanville. His son, Walter, gave it to Sir Thomas Basset his nephew, together with that of Whitford. (fn. n7) One of the co-heiresses of Thomas Basset brought a moiety of the manor of Colyton to Sir William Courtenay; and in the reign of Edward II., his descendant, the Earl of Devonshire, purchased the remaining moiety of the representatives of the other co-heiress. Whitford passed by marriage to the Sandfords, whose heiress married Foliot, and afterwards Brewose. The manor of Whitford, with a moiety of the hundred of Colyton, was confirmed to Peter Brewose and Joan his wife (heiress of Sandford) in 1346. (fn. n8)
> > > I failed to mention last night that the Earl of Devonshire was actually Baldwin De Rivers, whose family through the Courtneys were the Overlords of this area. In the Inquistiion for Baldwin De Rivers, he was found in his Inquisition in 1265 to be holding the overlord of some lands held by Sampson Foliot of Noke, Oxford. Baldwin died 1265 and Sampson died 1285. Samson had only girls to pass on his estates to. He was a representative of Foliot of Noke, Oxford. Therefore, it is most likely our Foliots came from this branch, but that is also not certain.
> > >
> > > 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry III, File 29', in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem: Volume 1, Henry III, ed. J E E S Sharp (London, 1904), pp. 171-177. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol1/pp171-177 [accessed 10 September 2023]. Fersedon manor, Devon. 100s. land held by Samson Foliot
> > >
> > > Joan Foliot's path backwards is not certain. Walter Foliot is said to be her father, and his wife was Ada Sampford. The father of Walter was said to be Laurence Foliot and Hawise Basset.
> > >
> > > This is the source for Laurence and Hawise only. I won't accept this line as completely solid from Joan, until I find the way backwards from them to Thomas. Timeways, I have left this arm of the investigation to my future investigation of Foliot family, but if anybody has this evidence, I would love to have it.
> > >
> > > 'Melbury Sampford', in An Inventory of the Historical Monuments in Dorset, Volume 1, West (London, 1952), pp. 161-167. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/dorset/vol1/pp161-167 [accessed 10 September 2023].
> > >
> > > When they say that the Courtenays had a moiety in the Manor of Whitford, then purchased the rest, and that went to Sampford/Sandford -- That is the part that makes this route from Foliot unsteady I have not located the William Courtenay at this point. This is the part that is really open to discussions for me.
> > >
> > > I also have concentrated little time on Agnes or Joan of the first Peter, as my focal point was the 2nd Peter's Joan. I went back and looked at the dates in the documents. My date of death - for Peter 2 - I did not have one. I had later than 1372, as that is the date that he gave Beatrice the lands. It would be lovely to get that deed or grant. Thomas was born 1301, as he was aged 10 at his father's death. This is how we know when Peter 1 died. It appears someone has an Inquisition for Peter I, but the spellings of the names make it incredibly difficult to find. FMG shows the wife as Agnes. It is now clear that this is Peter 1, and this article stops here just showing Thomas, Beatrice and John.
> > >
> > > I have a lot of family in Devon and Cornwall. I have recognized that families from Dorset and Somerset have married with Devon families on a frequent basis. It is not unheard of at all. Neither does it make it 100% correct, just by that fact.
> > I have just found Henry Hussey, who died 1290 and his wife Agnes. This article is about Hungerford, and it says that Henry Hussey's son Henry was called to Parliament as a Knight in 1295. If this Agnes married Pierre De Braose, my thinking is that this was a 3rd Pierre, as she was not child bearing age in 1301. It bothered me that Agnes's first husband died in 1290, and then she was given dower in 1346? She may have lived that long,- and she may have had a life estate from that family, but she would be born about 1245.
> >
> >
> > The manor of South Standen seems to have belonged in the 12th century to
> > Henry Hussey of Harting (co. Sussex), C 1120 – aft 1165
> > who founded Dureford Abbey in 1165 and granted to it the chapel of Standen. (fn. 339)
> > Henry Hussey, his Son C 1150-Aft 1199 married Clementia, of John Port
> > who was holding Standen in 1199, (fn. 340) confirmed his father's gift about 1189–1204.
> > William Hussey C 1170-1217 was followed
> > Henry Hussey C 1190- 1235 married Cecilia unknown
> > Matthew, his son C 1220- 1253 who was holding this (wife may be Maud wife of William Paynel)
> > Henry Hussey of Harting, his son C 1240-1290 whose widow was Agnes
> > who in 1268 made an exchange of lands with Maud wife of William Paynel, possibly his father's widow. He received a grant of free warren here in 1271 and died in 1290.
> > Standen was assigned in dower to his widow Agnes. (fn. 350)
> > His son Henry C 1265- 1332 was summoned to Parliament as Lord Hussey in 1295 when a third of the manor was assigned in dower to his widow Isabel.
> > His son Henry second Lord Hussey leased certain lands here to Isabel widow of Roger de Stokke, but in 1336 came with armed followers and seized and destroyed the deed.
> > Henry settled half the manor in 1347 (fn. 355) on himself for life with remainder to one of his younger sons, Richard, and contingent remainders to his issue by Catherine, his second wife; he died in 1349 (fn. 356) without leaving any issue by Catherine, and Richard inherited this moiety, (fn. 357) of which he died seised in 1361
> >
> > 'Parishes: Hungerford', in A History of the County of Berkshire: Volume 4, ed. William Page and P H Ditchfield (London, 1924), pp. 183-200. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/berks/vol4/pp183-200 [accessed 16 September 2023].
> Okay, so the drumroll please.......
>
> Collection towards a Description of the County of Devon Page 40-41 Thomas Basset of Coliton (Whitford) was Lord in the time of King Richard I. (1189-1199)
> Page 42, Thomas Basset now styled of Whitford, in the time of King John. (1199-1216)
> Page 86/135-136. Thomas Basset married Philippa of William Malbedinge, of Nantwich, Cheshire, and had:
> 1.Alice married 3 times:
> A. William Lord Malet;
> B. Thomas Sandford; and
> C. John Biset.
> 2. Philippa (no husband given)
> 3. Joan, married to
> A. Reginald De Valletort; and
> B. Sir William Courtenay, brother of John, Lord Courtenay.
>
> Alice and Joan collectively held Coliton, and Joan gave her portion to his husband, Sir William Courtenay, and died without issue.
> Courtenays continued in their portion of the Moiety, and Alice’s issue continued in her moiety until the time of Edward II. [1307-1327] when the whole continued in the line of Courtenay until the attainter of Henry Marquess of Exon.
> The 4 sisters of Edward, Earl of Devon restored by Queen Mary were the heirs of any property not aliented.
> 1. Arundel of Talvern
> 2. Trelawny,
> 3. Heiress of Trethurs, namely Courtenay of Landrake and Vivian; and
> 4. Mohun
> Whitford: Page 136
> Laurence Sandford was the son of Thomas Sandford and Alice Basset. ( 136) and he had issue Thomas Sandford who died without issue, and Alda Sandford who married Walter Foliot and 2ndly to Sir Peter Brewes. After this it became the Earls of Devon.
>
> So Alda, was the wife of Peter Brewes 1, and Joan remains a mystery. But Joan was not the heiress of Whitford.
>
> Betty

So, drum Roll please again, on Nicholas Percy and his daughter Joan (who is not the daughter, but the wife, and she is Foliot of Ada)

From: History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset, Melbury Saunford, Volume 2 Page 657
By a fine levied in thr quinzine of St. Martin, 6 Edw II 1312, in which Peter de Blunt was Querent, and Walter Folyot and Ada his wife were deforcients, the manor of Melbury Saunford, Co dorset and the Manor of Whiteford, Devon were settled on the said Walter and Ada for their lives, remainder to Nicholas Percy and Joan his wife and the heirs of the body of Joan begotton by the said Nicholas, remainder to the right heires of the said Ada.

> So, drum Roll please again, on Nicholas Percy and his daughter Joan (who is not the daughter, but the wife, and she is Foliot of Ada)
>
> From: History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset, Melbury Saunford, Volume 2 Page 657
> By a fine levied in thr quinzine of St. Martin, 6 Edw II 1312, in which Peter de Blunt was Querent, and Walter Folyot and Ada his wife were deforcients, the manor of Melbury Saunford, Co dorset and the Manor of Whiteford, Devon were settled on the said Walter and Ada for their lives, remainder to Nicholas Percy and Joan his wife and the heirs of the body of Joan begotton by the said Nicholas, remainder to the right heires of the said Ada.
>
> There can be little doubt that this Joan Percy was the same Joan who was the sole daughter and heir of Sir Walter Foliot and Ada, and who afterwords became the wife of Sir John mautravers.
>
> John Mauttravers senior, Kight presented to the church of Melburty Osmond 1337; and a fine levied in thr Quinzaine of St. Hilary 12 Edw III 1338, John Mautravetrs senior and Joan his wife… etc.

Very nice find!

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:24 AM UTC-5, joseph cook wrote:
> > So, drum Roll please again, on Nicholas Percy and his daughter Joan (who is not the daughter, but the wife, and she is Foliot of Ada)
> >
> > From: History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset, Melbury Saunford, Volume 2 Page 657
> > By a fine levied in thr quinzine of St. Martin, 6 Edw II 1312, in which Peter de Blunt was Querent, and Walter Folyot and Ada his wife were deforcients, the manor of Melbury Saunford, Co dorset and the Manor of Whiteford, Devon were settled on the said Walter and Ada for their lives, remainder to Nicholas Percy and Joan his wife and the heirs of the body of Joan begotton by the said Nicholas, remainder to the right heires of the said Ada.
> >
> > There can be little doubt that this Joan Percy was the same Joan who was the sole daughter and heir of Sir Walter Foliot and Ada, and who afterwords became the wife of Sir John mautravers.
> >
> > John Mauttravers senior, Kight presented to the church of Melburty Osmond 1337; and a fine levied in thr Quinzaine of St. Hilary 12 Edw III 1338, John Mautravetrs senior and Joan his wife… etc.
> Very nice find!

I'm sorry I have not been following this entire chain too closely, but assume you have read this which touches on Joan, Nicholas Percy's wife:
http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/Joan%20Brewes.pdf

--Joe Cook

On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 9:21:43 PM UTC-8, joseph cook wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:24 AM UTC-5, joseph cook wrote:
> > > So, drum Roll please again, on Nicholas Percy and his daughter Joan (who is not the daughter, but the wife, and she is Foliot of Ada)
> > >
> > > From: History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset, Melbury Saunford, Volume 2 Page 657
> > > By a fine levied in thr quinzine of St. Martin, 6 Edw II 1312, in which Peter de Blunt was Querent, and Walter Folyot and Ada his wife were deforcients, the manor of Melbury Saunford, Co dorset and the Manor of Whiteford, Devon were settled on the said Walter and Ada for their lives, remainder to Nicholas Percy and Joan his wife and the heirs of the body of Joan begotton by the said Nicholas, remainder to the right heires of the said Ada.
> > >
> > > There can be little doubt that this Joan Percy was the same Joan who was the sole daughter and heir of Sir Walter Foliot and Ada, and who afterwords became the wife of Sir John mautravers.
> > >
> > > John Mauttravers senior, Kight presented to the church of Melburty Osmond 1337; and a fine levied in thr Quinzaine of St. Hilary 12 Edw III 1338, John Mautravetrs senior and Joan his wife… etc.
> > Very nice find!
> I'm sorry I have not been following this entire chain too closely, but assume you have read this which touches on Joan, Nicholas Percy's wife:
> http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/Joan%20Brewes.pdf
>
> --Joe Cook

I have another lovely find. Just ducky. So how about the real father of this Peter Braose who is not Peter, it is his full brother William.

I found it on TC Banks Extinct Baronage of England right before Beauchamp, and it is in Bavent. so that is how I found it, just dumb luck, as I had it filed under Beauchamp, the reason I pulled it. It is page 237 just before it, and this is 238. I will just type what it says:

Adam de Bavent married the daughter and heir of Wiliam Westoneston or Weston and had issue another Adam, Lord of the Manor of Clapkin, and of various others in the county of Sussex, the 3rd of Edward 1, who married Alice only daughter and heir of Peter de Escudamore; and had issue Roger de Bavent aged 40 in I think 11 of Edward I who by Lettice his wife had Roger de Bavent his son, who by Hawise his wife had John his son and heir living 22 of Eward III 1349 who died sp and Eleanor heir to her bother, who married William De Brews and had issue Peter de Brews to Whom Edward III confirmed the manors of Weston Sussex and Wedenshall; who had issue John de Brews whose wife Margaret daughter of Thomas Poynings de St John and died sp, 5th Henry VI whereupon his sister Beatrice the wife of Hugh Shirley of Etingdon nd Shirley in Warwick and Derby became his heir.

So wow.

On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 9:21:43 PM UTC-8, joseph cook wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:24 AM UTC-5, joseph cook wrote:
> > > So, drum Roll please again, on Nicholas Percy and his daughter Joan (who is not the daughter, but the wife, and she is Foliot of Ada)
> > >
> > > From: History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset, Melbury Saunford, Volume 2 Page 657
> > > By a fine levied in thr quinzine of St. Martin, 6 Edw II 1312, in which Peter de Blunt was Querent, and Walter Folyot and Ada his wife were deforcients, the manor of Melbury Saunford, Co dorset and the Manor of Whiteford, Devon were settled on the said Walter and Ada for their lives, remainder to Nicholas Percy and Joan his wife and the heirs of the body of Joan begotton by the said Nicholas, remainder to the right heires of the said Ada.
> > >
> > > There can be little doubt that this Joan Percy was the same Joan who was the sole daughter and heir of Sir Walter Foliot and Ada, and who afterwords became the wife of Sir John mautravers.
> > >
> > > John Mauttravers senior, Kight presented to the church of Melburty Osmond 1337; and a fine levied in thr Quinzaine of St. Hilary 12 Edw III 1338, John Mautravetrs senior and Joan his wife… etc.
> > Very nice find!
> I'm sorry I have not been following this entire chain too closely, but assume you have read this which touches on Joan, Nicholas Percy's wife:
> http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/Joan%20Brewes.pdf
>
> --Joe Cook

Joe, I downloaded this to read. I was looking at Joan the wife of Peter, and for the life of me I cannot see how she could have been the widow of Walter Folyot, as Walter was married to Ada last. I am anxious to read this to find out who Joan the mother of Joan Foliot who married Walter was, of if there was a Joan who was married to Walter or Peter.

Thanks. Betty

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 4:21:58 PM UTC-8, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 9:21:43 PM UTC-8, joseph cook wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:24 AM UTC-5, joseph cook wrote:
> > > > So, drum Roll please again, on Nicholas Percy and his daughter Joan (who is not the daughter, but the wife, and she is Foliot of Ada)
> > > >
> > > > From: History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset, Melbury Saunford, Volume 2 Page 657
> > > > By a fine levied in thr quinzine of St. Martin, 6 Edw II 1312, in which Peter de Blunt was Querent, and Walter Folyot and Ada his wife were deforcients, the manor of Melbury Saunford, Co dorset and the Manor of Whiteford, Devon were settled on the said Walter and Ada for their lives, remainder to Nicholas Percy and Joan his wife and the heirs of the body of Joan begotton by the said Nicholas, remainder to the right heires of the said Ada.
> > > >
> > > > There can be little doubt that this Joan Percy was the same Joan who was the sole daughter and heir of Sir Walter Foliot and Ada, and who afterwords became the wife of Sir John mautravers.
> > > >
> > > > John Mauttravers senior, Kight presented to the church of Melburty Osmond 1337; and a fine levied in thr Quinzaine of St. Hilary 12 Edw III 1338, John Mautravetrs senior and Joan his wife… etc.
> > > Very nice find!
> > I'm sorry I have not been following this entire chain too closely, but assume you have read this which touches on Joan, Nicholas Percy's wife:
> > http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/Joan%20Brewes.pdf
> >
> > --Joe Cook
> I have another lovely find. Just ducky. So how about the real father of this Peter Braose who is not Peter, it is his full brother William.
>
> I found it on TC Banks Extinct Baronage of England right before Beauchamp, and it is in Bavent. so that is how I found it, just dumb luck, as I had it filed under Beauchamp, the reason I pulled it. It is page 237 just before it, and this is 238. I will just type what it says:
>
> Adam de Bavent married the daughter and heir of Wiliam Westoneston or Weston and had issue another Adam, Lord of the Manor of Clapkin, and of various others in the county of Sussex, the 3rd of Edward 1, who married Alice only daughter and heir of Peter de Escudamore; and had issue Roger de Bavent aged 40 in I think 11 of Edward I who by Lettice his wife had Roger de Bavent his son, who by Hawise his wife had John his son and heir living 22 of Eward III 1349 who died sp and Eleanor heir to her bother, who married William De Brews and had issue Peter de Brews to Whom Edward III confirmed the manors of Weston Sussex and Wedenshall; who had issue John de Brews whose wife Margaret daughter of Thomas Poynings de St John and died sp, 5th Henry VI whereupon his sister Beatrice the wife of Hugh Shirley of Etingdon nd Shirley in Warwick and Derby became his heir.
>
> So wow.

So I read that work you cited and it is fantastic. I don't know how Sir William Pole got it so wrong time wise, as Alda Sanford was born c 1275-90 according to the time line that her brother died 1299. That makes all the difference in the world. So she married Walter Foliot, and had a daughter Joan, who married Nicholas Percy, of Knouke, Wiltshire, who had a daughter Joan c 1321, who married Pierre Broase, born c 1320. From TC Banks, we know his father and mother William De Braose full brother of the first Pierre Braose, and Eleanor Bavent his mother. He inherited Wiston from Bavent. So it is unclear whether Joan, his wife survived him, as it appears he hd a 2nd wife Joanna, but the first Joan is clearly the mother of Joan and Beatrice. So the question then remaining on tis, is who was Nicholas percy's parents.. The Nicholas Percy in the Kildale pedigree is 2 generations too early. It makes sense for him to come from them, as he was favouring the Lancasters. But there is no proof that he was the son of Arnold that people say. Have you heard anything about his parentge? Thanks so much here, and I am glad we are getting this sorted before February 2024.

On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 8:33:47 AM UTC-8, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 4:21:58 PM UTC-8, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 9:21:43 PM UTC-8, joseph cook wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:24 AM UTC-5, joseph cook wrote:
> > > > > So, drum Roll please again, on Nicholas Percy and his daughter Joan (who is not the daughter, but the wife, and she is Foliot of Ada)
> > > > >
> > > > > From: History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset, Melbury Saunford, Volume 2 Page 657
> > > > > By a fine levied in thr quinzine of St. Martin, 6 Edw II 1312, in which Peter de Blunt was Querent, and Walter Folyot and Ada his wife were deforcients, the manor of Melbury Saunford, Co dorset and the Manor of Whiteford, Devon were settled on the said Walter and Ada for their lives, remainder to Nicholas Percy and Joan his wife and the heirs of the body of Joan begotton by the said Nicholas, remainder to the right heires of the said Ada.
> > > > >
> > > > > There can be little doubt that this Joan Percy was the same Joan who was the sole daughter and heir of Sir Walter Foliot and Ada, and who afterwords became the wife of Sir John mautravers.
> > > > >
> > > > > John Mauttravers senior, Kight presented to the church of Melburty Osmond 1337; and a fine levied in thr Quinzaine of St. Hilary 12 Edw III 1338, John Mautravetrs senior and Joan his wife… etc.
> > > > Very nice find!
> > > I'm sorry I have not been following this entire chain too closely, but assume you have read this which touches on Joan, Nicholas Percy's wife:
> > > http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/Joan%20Brewes.pdf
> > >
> > > --Joe Cook
> > I have another lovely find. Just ducky. So how about the real father of this Peter Braose who is not Peter, it is his full brother William.
> >
> > I found it on TC Banks Extinct Baronage of England right before Beauchamp, and it is in Bavent. so that is how I found it, just dumb luck, as I had it filed under Beauchamp, the reason I pulled it. It is page 237 just before it, and this is 238. I will just type what it says:
> >
> > Adam de Bavent married the daughter and heir of Wiliam Westoneston or Weston and had issue another Adam, Lord of the Manor of Clapkin, and of various others in the county of Sussex, the 3rd of Edward 1, who married Alice only daughter and heir of Peter de Escudamore; and had issue Roger de Bavent aged 40 in I think 11 of Edward I who by Lettice his wife had Roger de Bavent his son, who by Hawise his wife had John his son and heir living 22 of Eward III 1349 who died sp and Eleanor heir to her bother, who married William De Brews and had issue Peter de Brews to Whom Edward III confirmed the manors of Weston Sussex and Wedenshall; who had issue John de Brews whose wife Margaret daughter of Thomas Poynings de St John and died sp, 5th Henry VI whereupon his sister Beatrice the wife of Hugh Shirley of Etingdon nd Shirley in Warwick and Derby became his heir.
> >
> > So wow.
> So I read that work you cited and it is fantastic. I don't know how Sir William Pole got it so wrong time wise, as Alda Sanford was born c 1275-90 according to the time line that her brother died 1299. That makes all the difference in the world. So she married Walter Foliot, and had a daughter Joan, who married Nicholas Percy, of Knouke, Wiltshire, who had a daughter Joan c 1321, who married Pierre Broase, born c 1320. From TC Banks, we know his father and mother William De Braose full brother of the first Pierre Braose, and Eleanor Bavent his mother. He inherited Wiston from Bavent. So it is unclear whether Joan, his wife survived him, as it appears he hd a 2nd wife Joanna, but the first Joan is clearly the mother of Joan and Beatrice. So the question then remaining on tis, is who was Nicholas percy's parents. The Nicholas Percy in the Kildale pedigree is 2 generations too early. It makes sense for him to come from them, as he was favouring the Lancasters. But there is no proof that he was the son of Arnold that people say. Have you heard anything about his parentge? Thanks so much here, and I am glad we are getting this sorted before February 2024.

Sorry, I meant mother of John and Beatrice...

So as the twist begins again... Well I was doing some research on Kouke Wiltshire, which manor was in the custody of Nicholas Percy [who held only a life estate] at his death, reversion to Laurence de St. Martin and his heirs.. So it turns out that after Nicholas's death, John Maultravers [his friend, accomplice etc] was the guardian of said Laurence, then still a minor after must have been the release of Isabel de Hastings, who obviously was the guardian in 1326. She then took over again after him.

(This has to do with another property, but it is still relevant) Reginald [de St. Martin] died about 1314–15, (fn. 208) and his son John about 1326–7, (fn. 209) leaving as his heir his nephew Laurence son of Laurence de St. Martin, a minor whose custody was committed in 1326–7 to Isabel de Hastings, (fn. 210) in the following year to John Maltravers, (fn. 211) and again in 1330–1 to Isabel. (fn. 212)
Laurence received livery of the manor in 1340, (fn. 213) and dying in 1385–6 left as his heirs his greatnephew • 210. Abbrev. Rot. Orig. (Rec. Com.), i, 300.• 211. Ibid. ii, 9.

'Parishes: Carisbrooke', in A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 5, ed. William Page (London, 1912), pp. 221-235. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol5/pp221-235 [accessed 1 January 2024].
, This cannot be coincidence and either Joan or Percy had some relationship with the St. Martin's and Isabel De Hastings. It is curious and may become important. It may be that John Maultravers and Nicholas Percy were cousins, not just buddies and outlaws together.

On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 12:30:13 PM UTC-5, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> So as the twist begins again... Well I was doing some research on Kouke Wiltshire, which manor was in the custody of Nicholas Percy [who held only a life estate] at his death, reversion to Laurence de St. Martin and his heirs. So it turns out that after Nicholas's death, John Maultravers [his friend, accomplice etc] was the guardian of said Laurence, then still a minor after must have been the release of Isabel de Hastings, who obviously was the guardian in 1326. She then took over again after him.
>
> (This has to do with another property, but it is still relevant) Reginald [de St. Martin] died about 1314–15, (fn. 208) and his son John about 1326–7, (fn. 209) leaving as his heir his nephew Laurence son of Laurence de St. Martin, a minor whose custody was committed in 1326–7 to Isabel de Hastings, (fn. 210) in the following year to John Maltravers, (fn. 211) and again in 1330–1 to Isabel. (fn. 212)
> Laurence received livery of the manor in 1340, (fn. 213) and dying in 1385–6 left as his heirs his greatnephew • 210. Abbrev. Rot. Orig. (Rec. Com.), i, 300.• 211. Ibid. ii, 9.
>
> 'Parishes: Carisbrooke', in A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 5, ed. William Page (London, 1912), pp. 221-235. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol5/pp221-235 [accessed 1 January 2024].
> ,
> This cannot be coincidence and either Joan or Percy had some relationship with the St. Martin's and Isabel De Hastings. It is curious and may become important. It may be that John Maultravers and Nicholas Percy were cousins, not just buddies and outlaws together.

Betty, any idea who the mother of Lawrence and Reginald was? She was named Amyphillis.