When was Alexios Komnenos crowned co-emperor - 1119 or 1122? Both are given in separate Wiki articles. Or maybe a different date.

"He was crowned co-emperor in 1119, at 13 of age,"

"Possibly the onset of the rift between the brothers was in 1122, when John raised his own firstborn son, Alexios, to co-emperor, thus superseding Isaac"

Thank you.
Chris

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> When was Alexios Komnenos crowned co-emperor - 1119 or 1122? Both are given in separate Wiki articles. Or maybe a different date.
>
> "He was crowned co-emperor in 1119, at 13 of age,"
>
> "Possibly the onset of the rift between the brothers was in 1122, when John raised his own firstborn son, Alexios, to co-emperor, thus superseding Isaac"
>

Page 144 notes there is some disagreement perhaps:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Piroska_and_the_Pantokrator/avPADwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=alexios+Komnenos+1122+crowned+1119&pg=PA144&printsec=frontcover

On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 17:52:50 UTC, joseph cook wrote:
> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > When was Alexios Komnenos crowned co-emperor - 1119 or 1122? Both are given in separate Wiki articles. Or maybe a different date.
> >
> > "He was crowned co-emperor in 1119, at 13 of age,"
> >
> > "Possibly the onset of the rift between the brothers was in 1122, when John raised his own firstborn son, Alexios, to co-emperor, thus superseding Isaac"
> >
> Page 144 notes there is some disagreement perhaps:
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Piroska_and_the_Pantokrator/avPADwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=alexios+Komnenos+1122+crowned+1119&pg=PA144&printsec=frontcover

Thank you. I see that a Wiki article states thst:

"He was crowned co-emperor by his father in 1119, between 12 July and 7 October (historians often date his coronation to 1122, but this is a mistake)." footnoting to Hendy: Catalogue of the Byzantine Coins in the Dumbarton Oaks Collection. Vol. 4. Dumbarton Oaks. p. 244. ISBN 9780884022336. So that looks like a solid numismatic base for a reassessment.

Chris

On 05-Nov-23 5:14 AM, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 17:52:50 UTC, joseph cook wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
>>> When was Alexios Komnenos crowned co-emperor - 1119 or 1122? Both are given in separate Wiki articles. Or maybe a different date.
>>>
>>> "He was crowned co-emperor in 1119, at 13 of age,"
>>>
>>> "Possibly the onset of the rift between the brothers was in 1122, when John raised his own firstborn son, Alexios, to co-emperor, thus superseding Isaac"
>>>
>> Page 144 notes there is some disagreement perhaps:
>> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Piroska_and_the_Pantokrator/avPADwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=alexios+Komnenos+1122+crowned+1119&pg=PA144&printsec=frontcover
>
> Thank you. I see that a Wiki article states thst:
>
> "He was crowned co-emperor by his father in 1119, between 12 July and 7 October (historians often date his coronation to 1122, but this is a mistake)." footnoting to Hendy: Catalogue of the Byzantine Coins in the Dumbarton Oaks Collection. Vol. 4. Dumbarton Oaks. p. 244. ISBN 9780884022336. So that looks like a solid numismatic base for a reassessment.

The evidence is not numismatic but rather diplomatic - from three
charters, with almost very similar wording in the dating clause, issued
in Naples between July 1119 and October 1120. The first of these is
dated 1 December in indiction 13 (= 1119), in the first year of Alexios
as co-emperor with his father; the second is dated 12 July in indiction
13 (= 1120) also in the first co-imperial year of Alexios; and the third
is dated 7 October in indiction 14 (= 1120) in the second co-imperial
year of Alexios.

The assertion that Alexios was made co-emperor ca 1122 was just an
insecure deduction from the mention of this by Niketas Choniates after
Ioannes II had gone to war with the Serbs (actually in 1123) and before
an incursion by Hungarians (in the summer of 1127). But Choniates was
not following strict chronology in his narrative, as he went on to say
that Ioannes had a dream interpreted as meaning that the recently
crowned co-emperor would never reign in his own right, although going on
to place this prophetic nightmare shortly before the death of Alexios.
Since the latter died in 1142, no point in a span of around 20-23 years
as co-emperor is hardly soon after the coronation or shortly before the
demise.

Peter Stewart

--
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On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 21:38:33 UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 05-Nov-23 5:14 AM, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 17:52:50 UTC, joseph cook wrote:
> >> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> >>> When was Alexios Komnenos crowned co-emperor - 1119 or 1122? Both are given in separate Wiki articles. Or maybe a different date.
> >>>
> >>> "He was crowned co-emperor in 1119, at 13 of age,"
> >>>
> >>> "Possibly the onset of the rift between the brothers was in 1122, when John raised his own firstborn son, Alexios, to co-emperor, thus superseding Isaac"
> >>>
> >> Page 144 notes there is some disagreement perhaps:
> >> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Piroska_and_the_Pantokrator/avPADwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=alexios+Komnenos+1122+crowned+1119&pg=PA144&printsec=frontcover
> >
> > Thank you. I see that a Wiki article states thst:
> >
> > "He was crowned co-emperor by his father in 1119, between 12 July and 7 October (historians often date his coronation to 1122, but this is a mistake)." footnoting to Hendy: Catalogue of the Byzantine Coins in the Dumbarton Oaks Collection. Vol. 4. Dumbarton Oaks. p. 244. ISBN 9780884022336. So that looks like a solid numismatic base for a reassessment.
> The evidence is not numismatic but rather diplomatic - from three
> charters, with almost very similar wording in the dating clause, issued
> in Naples between July 1119 and October 1120. The first of these is
> dated 1 December in indiction 13 (= 1119), in the first year of Alexios
> as co-emperor with his father; the second is dated 12 July in indiction
> 13 (= 1120) also in the first co-imperial year of Alexios; and the third
> is dated 7 October in indiction 14 (= 1120) in the second co-imperial
> year of Alexios.
>
> The assertion that Alexios was made co-emperor ca 1122 was just an
> insecure deduction from the mention of this by Niketas Choniates after
> Ioannes II had gone to war with the Serbs (actually in 1123) and before
> an incursion by Hungarians (in the summer of 1127). But Choniates was
> not following strict chronology in his narrative, as he went on to say
> that Ioannes had a dream interpreted as meaning that the recently
> crowned co-emperor would never reign in his own right, although going on
> to place this prophetic nightmare shortly before the death of Alexios.
> Since the latter died in 1142, no point in a span of around 20-23 years
> as co-emperor is hardly soon after the coronation or shortly before the
> demise.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

Thank you for the correction, Peter. Thar's vey helpful. I just wanted ro clear that up. Back I go to the Battle of Beroia.

Chris