Rocksolid Light

Welcome to Rocksolid Light

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

For fast-acting relief, try slowing down.

interests / soc.genealogy.medieval / Re: Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz

SubjectAuthor
* Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of MetzHans Vogels
`* Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of MetzHans Vogels
 `- Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of MetzHans Vogels

1
Re: Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz

<3f2aec3d-1c37-4e5e-ad50-876a5dc23f30n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/interests/article-flat.php?id=8059&group=soc.genealogy.medieval#8059

  copy link   Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:180d:b0:66d:1371:f7e2 with SMTP id o13-20020a056214180d00b0066d1371f7e2mr346100qvw.6.1698997708290;
Fri, 03 Nov 2023 00:48:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1393:b0:3ae:2710:cfa4 with SMTP id
c19-20020a056808139300b003ae2710cfa4mr7937003oiw.2.1698997707961; Fri, 03 Nov
2023 00:48:27 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:48:27 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <41321b58-eac5-474d-9390-cd9a84e000e2n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=5.206.217.67; posting-account=TfMlLgoAAABEXp1NKc8xuu7rE0NQiyPD
NNTP-Posting-Host: 5.206.217.67
References: <41321b58-eac5-474d-9390-cd9a84e000e2n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3f2aec3d-1c37-4e5e-ad50-876a5dc23f30n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz
From: hansvogels.gen@gmail.com (Hans Vogels)
Injection-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 07:48:28 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 4982
 by: Hans Vogels - Fri, 3 Nov 2023 07:48 UTC

Op zaterdag 2 juli 2022 om 03:50:22 UTC+2 schreef Paulo Ricardo Canedo:
> Arnulf of Metz is the earliest documented male line ancestor of Charlemagne. In the late 90s, http://erwan.gil.free.fr/modules/freepages/pharaons/ramses_II.pdf, which discussed a descent from Antiquity through the Armenian route also mentioned an alternate descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz from Antiochus II of Syria through Galatian and Roman nobility
> "Generation 1 1. St. Arnulf of Metz, maiordomus in the kingdom of Austrasia
> (c.582–16.8.640). He married Dode (–?–), daughter of Arnold of Schelde,
> after 611.
> Generation 2 2. Bodogisel, ambassador to Byzantium in 589.
> Generation 3 4. Mummolin, maiordomus in 566 in Neustria.
> Generation 4 9. NN. married to Munderic.
> Generation 5 19. Artemie, married in 513to Florentinus, bishop of Geneve.
> Generation 6 38. Rustique, bishop of Lyon between 494 and 501
> Generation 7 76. Rurice de Limoges, bishop of Limoges c. 485-507
> Generation 8 152. NN.
> Generation 9 304. Adelphius.
> Generation 10 609. Anicia, married to Pontius.
> Generation 11 1219. Turrenia Anicia Iuliana, married to Quintus Clodius
> Hermogenianus Olybrius, consul in 379.
> Generation 12 2438. Anicius Auchenius Bassus, prefect in 382 in Rome, mar�ried to Turrenia Honorata.
> Generation 13 4876. Amnius Manius Cæsonius Nicomachus Anicius Paulinus
> Honorius, consul in 334.
> Generation 14 9752. Amnius Anicius Iulianus, consul in 322.
> Generation 15 19504. Sextus Anicius Faustus, consul in 298.
> Generation 16 39009. Asinia Iuliana Nichomacha, married to Quintus Ani�cius Faustus.
> Generation 17 78018. Caius Asinius Nicomachus Iulianus, proconsul in Asia
> circa 250.
> Generation 18 15603. Caius Asinius Quadratus Protimus, proconsul in A�khaia circa 220.Generation 19 312072. Caius Asinius Quadratus, historian, c. 200.
> Generation 20 624144. Caius Iulius Asinius Quadratus.
>
> Generation 21 1248288. Caius Iulius Quadratus Bassus, consul in 105, mar�ried to Asinia Marcella.
> Generation 22 2496576. Caius Iulius Bassus, proconsul in Bithynia, 98.
> Generation 23 4993152. Caius Iulius Severus, nobleman from Akmoneia in
> Galatia.
> Generation 24 9986304. Artemidoros, nobleman in Galatia.
> Generation 25 19972608. Amyntas, tetrarcus of Trocmes.
> Generation 26 39945217. NN., married to Brogitarix, king of Galatia c. 63–50
> b.C.
> Generation 27 79890435. Berenike, married to Deiotarix I, king of Galatia,
> 63–41 b.C.
> Generation 28 159780871. NN. (daughter).
> Generation 29 319561742. Attalos Philometor III, king of Pergamon, 138–133
> b.C.
> Generation 30 639123485. Stratonike of Kappadokia, married to Eumenes,
> king of Pergamon, 197–159 b.C.
> Generation 31 1278246970. Ariarathes IV Eusebes Philopator, king of Cap�padokia, 220–163b.C.
> Generation 32 2556493941. Stratonike, married to Ariarathes III.
> Generation 33 5112987882. Antiochos II Theos I, king of Syria, 261–246 b.C.,
> b. 290 b.C"
> What do you think of this possible descent from Antiquity? It bypasses the problems of the Armenian route but certainly has its own problems.

These two papers are very critical on anything beyond bishop Arnulf.

https://www.academia.edu/28031387/Die_Namen_Ansegis_el_Anschis_us_und_Anchises_im_Kontext_der_Karolingergenealogien_und_der_fr%C3%A4nkischen_Geschichtsschreibung_2014_pdf
https://mspace.lib.umanitoba.ca/items/71314969-748b-441a-b8c1-7cd4110aa32a

Hans Vogels

Re: Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz

<562e1823-ed9f-4e79-b96f-d22b19c1bdc1n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/interests/article-flat.php?id=8060&group=soc.genealogy.medieval#8060

  copy link   Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4f28:0:b0:66d:5411:3ee0 with SMTP id fc8-20020ad44f28000000b0066d54113ee0mr398169qvb.5.1698999287468; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 01:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:6193:b0:1e9:f1ce:5f4e with SMTP id a19-20020a056870619300b001e9f1ce5f4emr10184421oah.3.1698999287192; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 01:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr2.iad1.usenetexpress.com!69.80.99.11.MISMATCH!border-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2023 01:14:46 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <3f2aec3d-1c37-4e5e-ad50-876a5dc23f30n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=5.206.217.67; posting-account=TfMlLgoAAABEXp1NKc8xuu7rE0NQiyPD
NNTP-Posting-Host: 5.206.217.67
References: <41321b58-eac5-474d-9390-cd9a84e000e2n@googlegroups.com> <3f2aec3d-1c37-4e5e-ad50-876a5dc23f30n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <562e1823-ed9f-4e79-b96f-d22b19c1bdc1n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz
From: hansvogels.gen@gmail.com (Hans Vogels)
Injection-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 08:14:47 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 89
 by: Hans Vogels - Fri, 3 Nov 2023 08:14 UTC

Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 08:48:29 UTC+1 schreef Hans Vogels:
> Op zaterdag 2 juli 2022 om 03:50:22 UTC+2 schreef Paulo Ricardo Canedo:
> > Arnulf of Metz is the earliest documented male line ancestor of Charlemagne. In the late 90s, http://erwan.gil.free.fr/modules/freepages/pharaons/ramses_II.pdf, which discussed a descent from Antiquity through the Armenian route also mentioned an alternate descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz from Antiochus II of Syria through Galatian and Roman nobility
> > "Generation 1 1. St. Arnulf of Metz, maiordomus in the kingdom of Austrasia
> > (c.582–16.8.640). He married Dode (–?–), daughter of Arnold of Schelde,
> > after 611.
> > Generation 2 2. Bodogisel, ambassador to Byzantium in 589.
> > Generation 3 4. Mummolin, maiordomus in 566 in Neustria.
> > Generation 4 9. NN. married to Munderic.
> > Generation 5 19. Artemie, married in 513to Florentinus, bishop of Geneve.
> > Generation 6 38. Rustique, bishop of Lyon between 494 and 501
> > Generation 7 76. Rurice de Limoges, bishop of Limoges c. 485-507
> > Generation 8 152. NN.
> > Generation 9 304. Adelphius.
> > Generation 10 609. Anicia, married to Pontius.
> > Generation 11 1219. Turrenia Anicia Iuliana, married to Quintus Clodius
> > Hermogenianus Olybrius, consul in 379.
> > Generation 12 2438. Anicius Auchenius Bassus, prefect in 382 in Rome, mar�ried to Turrenia Honorata.
> > Generation 13 4876. Amnius Manius Cæsonius Nicomachus Anicius Paulinus
> > Honorius, consul in 334.
> > Generation 14 9752. Amnius Anicius Iulianus, consul in 322.
> > Generation 15 19504. Sextus Anicius Faustus, consul in 298.
> > Generation 16 39009. Asinia Iuliana Nichomacha, married to Quintus Ani�cius Faustus.
> > Generation 17 78018. Caius Asinius Nicomachus Iulianus, proconsul in Asia
> > circa 250.
> > Generation 18 15603. Caius Asinius Quadratus Protimus, proconsul in A�khaia circa 220.Generation 19 312072. Caius Asinius Quadratus, historian, c. 200.
> > Generation 20 624144. Caius Iulius Asinius Quadratus.
> >
> > Generation 21 1248288. Caius Iulius Quadratus Bassus, consul in 105, mar�ried to Asinia Marcella.
> > Generation 22 2496576. Caius Iulius Bassus, proconsul in Bithynia, 98.
> > Generation 23 4993152. Caius Iulius Severus, nobleman from Akmoneia in
> > Galatia.
> > Generation 24 9986304. Artemidoros, nobleman in Galatia.
> > Generation 25 19972608. Amyntas, tetrarcus of Trocmes.
> > Generation 26 39945217. NN., married to Brogitarix, king of Galatia c. 63–50
> > b.C.
> > Generation 27 79890435. Berenike, married to Deiotarix I, king of Galatia,
> > 63–41 b.C.
> > Generation 28 159780871. NN. (daughter).
> > Generation 29 319561742. Attalos Philometor III, king of Pergamon, 138–133
> > b.C.
> > Generation 30 639123485. Stratonike of Kappadokia, married to Eumenes,
> > king of Pergamon, 197–159 b.C.
> > Generation 31 1278246970. Ariarathes IV Eusebes Philopator, king of Cap�padokia, 220–163b.C.
> > Generation 32 2556493941. Stratonike, married to Ariarathes III.
> > Generation 33 5112987882. Antiochos II Theos I, king of Syria, 261–246 b.C.,
> > b. 290 b.C"
> > What do you think of this possible descent from Antiquity? It bypasses the problems of the Armenian route but certainly has its own problems.
>
>
> These two papers are very critical on anything beyond bishop Arnulf.
>
> https://www.academia.edu/28031387/Die_Namen_Ansegis_el_Anschis_us_und_Anchises_im_Kontext_der_Karolingergenealogien_und_der_fr%C3%A4nkischen_Geschichtsschreibung_2014_pdf
> https://mspace.lib.umanitoba.ca/items/71314969-748b-441a-b8c1-7cd4110aa32a
>
> Hans Vogels

Sorry for bothering you. The ancestors of Charlemagne were an issue on a Dutch forum on which I linked to this discussion. I kind of forgot that this (inbetween) was were I got the information in the first place.

Hans Vogels

Re: Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz

<25319e5c-a174-42a9-9eed-13bee5653029n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://news.novabbs.org/interests/article-flat.php?id=8071&group=soc.genealogy.medieval#8071

  copy link   Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:488e:0:b0:41c:b9a0:17c0 with SMTP id i14-20020ac8488e000000b0041cb9a017c0mr20359qtq.3.1699432683395;
Wed, 08 Nov 2023 00:38:03 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:f0c:b0:3ab:81e4:4d78 with SMTP id
m12-20020a0568080f0c00b003ab81e44d78mr645312oiw.8.1699432683136; Wed, 08 Nov
2023 00:38:03 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:38:02 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <562e1823-ed9f-4e79-b96f-d22b19c1bdc1n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=5.206.217.67; posting-account=TfMlLgoAAABEXp1NKc8xuu7rE0NQiyPD
NNTP-Posting-Host: 5.206.217.67
References: <41321b58-eac5-474d-9390-cd9a84e000e2n@googlegroups.com>
<3f2aec3d-1c37-4e5e-ad50-876a5dc23f30n@googlegroups.com> <562e1823-ed9f-4e79-b96f-d22b19c1bdc1n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <25319e5c-a174-42a9-9eed-13bee5653029n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz
From: hansvogels.gen@gmail.com (Hans Vogels)
Injection-Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2023 08:38:03 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 6013
 by: Hans Vogels - Wed, 8 Nov 2023 08:38 UTC

Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 09:14:48 UTC+1 schreef Hans Vogels:
> Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 08:48:29 UTC+1 schreef Hans Vogels:
> > Op zaterdag 2 juli 2022 om 03:50:22 UTC+2 schreef Paulo Ricardo Canedo:
> > > Arnulf of Metz is the earliest documented male line ancestor of Charlemagne. In the late 90s, http://erwan.gil.free.fr/modules/freepages/pharaons/ramses_II.pdf, which discussed a descent from Antiquity through the Armenian route also mentioned an alternate descent from Antiquity for Arnulf of Metz from Antiochus II of Syria through Galatian and Roman nobility
> > > "Generation 1 1. St. Arnulf of Metz, maiordomus in the kingdom of Austrasia
> > > (c.582–16.8.640). He married Dode (–?–), daughter of Arnold of Schelde,
> > > after 611.
> > > Generation 2 2. Bodogisel, ambassador to Byzantium in 589.
> > > Generation 3 4. Mummolin, maiordomus in 566 in Neustria.
> > > Generation 4 9. NN. married to Munderic.
> > > Generation 5 19. Artemie, married in 513to Florentinus, bishop of Geneve.
> > > Generation 6 38. Rustique, bishop of Lyon between 494 and 501
> > > Generation 7 76. Rurice de Limoges, bishop of Limoges c. 485-507
> > > Generation 8 152. NN.
> > > Generation 9 304. Adelphius.
> > > Generation 10 609. Anicia, married to Pontius.
> > > Generation 11 1219. Turrenia Anicia Iuliana, married to Quintus Clodius
> > > Hermogenianus Olybrius, consul in 379.
> > > Generation 12 2438. Anicius Auchenius Bassus, prefect in 382 in Rome, mar�ried to Turrenia Honorata.
> > > Generation 13 4876. Amnius Manius Cæsonius Nicomachus Anicius Paulinus
> > > Honorius, consul in 334.
> > > Generation 14 9752. Amnius Anicius Iulianus, consul in 322.
> > > Generation 15 19504. Sextus Anicius Faustus, consul in 298.
> > > Generation 16 39009. Asinia Iuliana Nichomacha, married to Quintus Ani�cius Faustus.
> > > Generation 17 78018. Caius Asinius Nicomachus Iulianus, proconsul in Asia
> > > circa 250.
> > > Generation 18 15603. Caius Asinius Quadratus Protimus, proconsul in A�khaia circa 220.Generation 19 312072. Caius Asinius Quadratus, historian, c. 200.
> > > Generation 20 624144. Caius Iulius Asinius Quadratus.
> > >
> > > Generation 21 1248288. Caius Iulius Quadratus Bassus, consul in 105, mar�ried to Asinia Marcella.
> > > Generation 22 2496576. Caius Iulius Bassus, proconsul in Bithynia, 98..
> > > Generation 23 4993152. Caius Iulius Severus, nobleman from Akmoneia in
> > > Galatia.
> > > Generation 24 9986304. Artemidoros, nobleman in Galatia.
> > > Generation 25 19972608. Amyntas, tetrarcus of Trocmes.
> > > Generation 26 39945217. NN., married to Brogitarix, king of Galatia c.. 63–50
> > > b.C.
> > > Generation 27 79890435. Berenike, married to Deiotarix I, king of Galatia,
> > > 63–41 b.C.
> > > Generation 28 159780871. NN. (daughter).
> > > Generation 29 319561742. Attalos Philometor III, king of Pergamon, 138–133
> > > b.C.
> > > Generation 30 639123485. Stratonike of Kappadokia, married to Eumenes,
> > > king of Pergamon, 197–159 b.C.
> > > Generation 31 1278246970. Ariarathes IV Eusebes Philopator, king of Cap�padokia, 220–163b.C.
> > > Generation 32 2556493941. Stratonike, married to Ariarathes III.
> > > Generation 33 5112987882. Antiochos II Theos I, king of Syria, 261–246 b.C.,
> > > b. 290 b.C"
> > > What do you think of this possible descent from Antiquity? It bypasses the problems of the Armenian route but certainly has its own problems.
> >
> >
> > These two papers are very critical on anything beyond bishop Arnulf.
> >
> > https://www.academia.edu/28031387/Die_Namen_Ansegis_el_Anschis_us_und_Anchises_im_Kontext_der_Karolingergenealogien_und_der_fr%C3%A4nkischen_Geschichtsschreibung_2014_pdf
> > https://mspace.lib.umanitoba.ca/items/71314969-748b-441a-b8c1-7cd4110aa32a
> >
> > Hans Vogels
> Sorry for bothering you. The ancestors of Charlemagne were an issue on a Dutch forum on which I linked to this discussion. I kind of forgot that this (inbetween) was were I got the information in the first place.
>
> Hans Vogels

I found something recent (2023) via Google Scholar:
Rewriting Inconvenient Truths How Charlemagne Rewrote his Ancestry to Justify His Leadership.
https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/1084879/Doe_FinalDraft.pdf?sequence=1

Hans Vogels

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.81
clearnet tor