Replying to an interesting old post. I believe the avunculus (maternal uncle) Walter is actually Walter Giffard.

The first Walter Giffard was the first born of his mother, who subsequently remarried to Osbern de Bolbec. From FMG: the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire states ”Turketillus frater Turulphi” married “aliam sororem comitissæ Gunnoræ” and that she was the mother of “duos…filios…Walterum de Giffard primogenitum…” This does not contradict Guillaume de Jumieges who also states that Walter Giffard was her first born and that she married Osbern de Bolbec. I suspect Gunnor’s sister was Turquetil’s second wife. This was her first marriage and she first gave birth to Walter Giffard. Walter was perhaps Turquetil’s youngest and last child before he dies and his wife remarries to Osbern. Walter was not Osbern’s son and the Bolbec tenants of Giffard are maternal kinsmen. Walter’s prominence among Turquetil’s children is perhaps due to his mother, the sister-in-law of Duke Richard, King William's grandfather. This makes Walter an avunculus of King William.

Michael Harris

On Monday, October 11, 2004 at 11:53:23 PM UTC-5, Leo van de Pas wrote:
> I found an Australian genealogical publication "The Line to Ellen", a millenium of Boydells, by Barbara Treacy. It displays how Grace Barbara Boydell, Mrs. Peter Bradley Treacy, born in 1925 traces her male line, from Australia to the time of William the Conqueror.
> This lineage is broken down in segments and there are a few questions I have about the early ones.
> The first one is headed Pedigree Chart 1: to 1066
> It starts with the vague heading COUNTS OF ANJOU a line connects downwards to Raoul Taisson, Radolphus Andegavensis (or Angers) lived at Thury, married Alpaďde.
> They had two sons, the elder Raoul Taisson (wife's name unknown) Seigneur de Cinglais, Lord of Thury. Held lands in the Cotentin ca.1030. Witnessed charter of Mont St.Michel. At the battle of Val de Dunes, Founded Abbey of Fontenay. He is shown to be the father of :
> Raoul Taisson, Seigneur de Cinglais, "Taisson de Tignolles". Lived at Mutrcy. Present at the Battle of Hastings, 1066. He married Matilda, Cousin of William the Conqueror.
> The second is headed Pedigree Chart 2 : to 1066, the family of Raoul Taisson's wife
> On top we start with Fulbert of Falaise and he has two children displayed:
> Arlette (or Herleve) mother of William the Conqueror, and Walter.
> Walter has two daughters displayed, Clara and Matildas, wife of Raoul Taisson
> Pedigree chart 3 : to 1086
> Raoul Tasson, at the battle of Hastings, married to Matilda, daughter of Walter, uncle of William the Conqueror. Witnessed charter of foundation of Abbey of Fonteneay. In the Founding charter she is described as "Mathildis filia Gualteri avunculo Guglielmi Regis Anglorum." They had two sons, Osbern Fitztezzon, in Cheshire in 1086, and Jourdain, Seigneur de Cinglais.
> Jourdain, Seigneur de Cinglais, married Letitia, daughter of Neil de St.Sauveur, Vicomte de Cotentin.
> parents of Raoul, his wife unknown,
> and father of
> Jeanne, wife of Robert Bertrand, Lord of Briquebec.
> Pedigree Chart 4 : 1050-1242
> Osbern Fitztezzon, Domesday tenant. Held lands in Cheshire and Lincolnshire, living in 1119.
> Wife unknown, father of William FitzOzbern (Witnessed charter of Richard, Earl of Chester ca.1119) and Hugh FitzOsbern
> Hugh FitzOzbern, Lord of the Manor of Dodleston. Held lands in Lincs. 1114. Signed documents in 1093, 1119 and 1124, wife unknown,
> father of
> Osbern Fitzhugh "Osbern Meschyn", in 1119, signed a charter in 1124, wife unknown
> father of
> William FitzOzbern may have given tithes to nuns of St.Mary, Chester between 1153 and 1181, wife unknown
> father of
> Idonea, alive in 1242, inherited Domesday lands, married Helto de Boydell who died before 1180 they had at least four sons. From here on the Boydell family continues till the present.
> Is anyone interested in these Boydells? Is the above correct? Can anyone add to it?
> Many thanks
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia

On 14-Nov-23 5:45 AM, Michael Harris wrote:
> Replying to an interesting old post. I believe the avunculus (maternal uncle) Walter is actually Walter Giffard.
>
> The first Walter Giffard was the first born of his mother, who subsequently remarried to Osbern de Bolbec. From FMG: the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire states ”Turketillus frater Turulphi” married “aliam sororem comitissæ Gunnoræ” and that she was the mother of “duos…filios…Walterum de Giffard primogenitum…” This does not contradict Guillaume de Jumieges who also states that Walter Giffard was her first born and that she married Osbern de Bolbec.

I'm afraid you have misread Guillaume de Jumièges (acutally Robert de
Torigni in his additional book of Gesta Normannorum ducum): the passage
in question explicitly states that Walter Giffard was the son of Osbern
- "Tercia autem sororum Gunnoris comitisse, nupsit Osberno de Bolebec.
Ex qua genuit Galterium Gifardum primum et Godefridum patrem Willelmi de
Archis", literally meaning "The third sister of Countess Gunnor married
Osbern de Bolbec. By whom he begot the first Walter Giffard and Godfrey
father of William of Arques".

Robert de Torigni is not a perfectly reliable authority for genealogy,
but setting a late monastic foundation history against his information
is dicey at best. David Douglas in his biography of William the
Conqueror identified the latter's uncles Osbern and Walter as brothers
of his mother Herleve, sons of her father Fulbert, see table 6. The
names Osbern and Walter were common enough that the most prominent
bearers are not necessarily the relevant or even the likeliest ones in
every ducal context.

Peter Stewart

--
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On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 4:55:06 PM UTC-6, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 14-Nov-23 5:45 AM, Michael Harris wrote:
> > Replying to an interesting old post. I believe the avunculus (maternal uncle) Walter is actually Walter Giffard.
> >
> > The first Walter Giffard was the first born of his mother, who subsequently remarried to Osbern de Bolbec. From FMG: the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire states ”Turketillus frater Turulphi” married “aliam sororem comitissæ Gunnoræ” and that she was the mother of “duos…filios…Walterum de Giffard primogenitum…” This does not contradict Guillaume de Jumieges who also states that Walter Giffard was her first born and that she married Osbern de Bolbec.
> I'm afraid you have misread Guillaume de Jumièges (acutally Robert de
> Torigni in his additional book of Gesta Normannorum ducum): the passage
> in question explicitly states that Walter Giffard was the son of Osbern
> - "Tercia autem sororum Gunnoris comitisse, nupsit Osberno de Bolebec.
> Ex qua genuit Galterium Gifardum primum et Godefridum patrem Willelmi de
> Archis", literally meaning "The third sister of Countess Gunnor married
> Osbern de Bolbec. By whom he begot the first Walter Giffard and Godfrey
> father of William of Arques".
>
> Robert de Torigni is not a perfectly reliable authority for genealogy,
> but setting a late monastic foundation history against his information
> is dicey at best. David Douglas in his biography of William the
> Conqueror identified the latter's uncles Osbern and Walter as brothers
> of his mother Herleve, sons of her father Fulbert, see table 6. The
> names Osbern and Walter were common enough that the most prominent
> bearers are not necessarily the relevant or even the likeliest ones in
> every ducal context.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

Hi Peter. It’s good to hear from you and thank you for responding. Your reaction to the following note is also very appreciated. For context, my interest in the pedigree of the first Walter Giffard results from the numerous occurrences of Walter and his progeny in context (feudal associations, charter co-witnesses, offices, etc) suggestive of paternal kinship with the progeny of Turquetil de Tourville, son of Torf. Let’s separately address the two topics:

[1] Who is the avunculus Walter (older male relative) of Duke William?
[2] Was Turquetil de Tourville potentially the father of the first Walter Giffard?

Your reply is with respect to the second question, but let’s proceed with the first and separately address the second. A very exciting work in progress concerns William Pictavensis aka William of Poitiers, undoubtedly an extremely near relation and possibly the father of Ralph Grammaticus I, paternal ancestor of myself and many team members at https://groups.io/g/crispincousins. A leading expert concerning William Pictavensis is R.H.C. Davis, author of "from Alfred the Great to Stephen." Davis teamed up with Marjorie Chibnall, who specializes in translations of Latin, which she terms a highly fluid language. Together, they translated the work of William of Poitiers, which unfortunately exists as a single copy missing the first and last pages. The missing first page likely provides some biographical information about the author, and the absence of this page greatly distressed Davis. Consequently, Davis was forced to rely on the work of Orderic and his amazing intuition to provide a short biography of the author. With great respect to Davis and Chibnall, I will shortly publish an expansion of this biography. An excerpt from this work concerns William's pedigree. William of Poiters is the son of Anschetil, lord of Les Preaux. This Anschetil, whose brothers use the moniker Efflanc, is the son of Theroulde de Tourville and Campigny, the son of Turquetil de Tourville. This pedigree fits nicely with everything we know about Ralph Grammaticus I.

Interestingly, Davis highlights the very close connection between William of Poitiers and Bishop Odo and states that “if the connection with Odo can be established beyond doubt, we may find that we have solved some of the problems of WP’s sources (that WP’s work was not widely reproduced). The hypothesis is proposed that William of Poitiers is none other than the forefather of the family Albini Rufus and Roger de Albini is perhaps among his sons. William, the father of Roger de Albini, had very close ties with Bishop Odo, who was his overlord in Normandy. At Domesday in England, Bishop Odo is the overlord of Ilbert de Lacy, overlord of the Pictavensis and Grammaticus families.

While researching William of Poitiers, it became clear that he answered the pope's call of 1063 to save Christendom in Spain. Once again, I stumbled on Walter Giffard, perhaps second of that name, who also answered the pope’s call to arms in Spain. Interestingly, “Giffard le Peiteuin,” is the name given by Geoffrey Gaimer to Walter Giffard. This is the same moniker found among the Pictavus relations of Grammaticus in Yorkshire. Walter is likely to have known William Pictavensis well and perhaps shared William's moniker for the same reason ...as a well-educated graduate of Saint-Hilaire-le-Grand of Poitiers. Alternatively, perhaps Walter Giffard led the Poitou contingent under the banner of the Duke of Aquitaine.. I hope to finish and publish this effort soon "William Pictavensis, father of Roger de Albini," and apologies for the long prologue.

During this pivot to Walter Giffard, I inspected previous research that proposed Walter Giffard is perhaps the mysterious “Uncle Walter” of young Duke William. During the course of that effort, the true identity of "Uncle Walter" has perhaps been revealed, the chamberlain Walter who attended young Duke William. The identity of this Uncle Walter is the primary subject of this research note. Upon reflection, “Uncle Walter” of Duke William was not likely the same as Walter Giffard, chronologically most likely second of that name. Birthright was the singular driving force of these times, a fact that modern scholars often forget or overlook. This was also my mistake when first contemplating the identity of Uncle Walter. From the descriptions of Orderic, Walter was a chamberlain of the young Duke, which would have been in hereditary succession of a previous chamberlain. This realization doesn't totally rule out Walter Giffard if Walter is indeed a great grandson of Turquetil de Tourville as suspected, but we have stronger candidates as successors in the office of chamberlain.

Multiple hereditary offices of the ducal or royal chamber existed in Normandy and post-Conquest England overseen by a High Chamberlain, but period documents rarely specify which office is intended. For example, one of King William’s learned clerks of the privy exchequer (the king’s finances, not the realm) was the chamberlain Ansgot Rufus de Albini (of Rochester, Burwell and elsewhere), called “camerarius regis” in one document and simply “clerico” in another. In the same office, the chamberlain Herbert Rufus (a near kinsman of Ansgot) was specifically called “regis cubicularius et thesaurarius,” specifying that he was the king’s privy comptroller, a clerk of the privy exchequer, an office sometimes also called “clerici de Camera.” Specificity of office was often not required, since everyone of the period understood exactly who was being referenced.

Among the two most reasonable candidates, “Uncle Walter” is potentially a presumed son of the chamberlain Fulbert as suggested by Douglas. Most scholars understand “Fulberti cubicularii ducis” to mean that Fulbert was an officer of Duke William’s chamber. However, that is not necessarily the case. Fulbert may have been among the chamberlains of Duke Robert II, succeeded in that hereditary office by his son Walter, presuming the chamberlain Walter of Duke William’s minority was in fact Fulbert’s son. OK so far. However, we do not find any sons of Fulbert mentioned by Guillaume of Jumieges or by Orderic or subscribing to charters (Douglas is clearly mistaken) or named in other period documents. But for the sake of argument, suppose for the moment that Fulbert did have a son named Walter who was chamberlain to Duke William during his minority.

Orderic states "Willemus enim ex concubina Rodberti ducis nomine Herleva, Fulberti cubicularii ducis filia natus.” As is often the case, we cannot know exactly which hereditary office of the king’s chamber was occupied by Fulbert. But as a prerequisite to occupy that office, we know that Fulbert must be a member of a qualified family of some stature in descent from a great Danish family as were all the Norman nobility of that period. Such is especially true for those most trusted officers of the ducal (Normandy) or royal (England) chamber. Furthermore, the politics and rules of Norman society (some were laws, other customs) would not have allowed Duke William’s marriage to the daughter of a lowborn burgess, no matter her qualities. These two observations go hand-in-hand.

William de Jumieges says “Pelles enim et renones ad iniuriam ducis uerberauerant ipsumque pelliciarium despective vocauerunt, eo quod parentes matris eius pollinctores extiterant.” Translations of Orderic taken from a translation of this passage by William de Jumieges often make Fulbert a tradesman and tanner and embalmer. Douglas suggests “the origins of Herleve were humble.” Numerous scholars such as Douglas fail to recognize that this context would have been impossible.

On 18-Nov-23 6:03 AM, Michael Harris wrote:
> On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 4:55:06 PM UTC-6, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 14-Nov-23 5:45 AM, Michael Harris wrote:
>>> Replying to an interesting old post. I believe the avunculus (maternal uncle) Walter is actually Walter Giffard.
>>>
>>> The first Walter Giffard was the first born of his mother, who subsequently remarried to Osbern de Bolbec. From FMG: the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire states ”Turketillus frater Turulphi” married “aliam sororem comitissæ Gunnoræ” and that she was the mother of “duos…filios…Walterum de Giffard primogenitum…” This does not contradict Guillaume de Jumieges who also states that Walter Giffard was her first born and that she married Osbern de Bolbec.
>> I'm afraid you have misread Guillaume de Jumièges (acutally Robert de
>> Torigni in his additional book of Gesta Normannorum ducum): the passage
>> in question explicitly states that Walter Giffard was the son of Osbern
>> - "Tercia autem sororum Gunnoris comitisse, nupsit Osberno de Bolebec.
>> Ex qua genuit Galterium Gifardum primum et Godefridum patrem Willelmi de
>> Archis", literally meaning "The third sister of Countess Gunnor married
>> Osbern de Bolbec. By whom he begot the first Walter Giffard and Godfrey
>> father of William of Arques".
>>
>> Robert de Torigni is not a perfectly reliable authority for genealogy,
>> but setting a late monastic foundation history against his information
>> is dicey at best. David Douglas in his biography of William the
>> Conqueror identified the latter's uncles Osbern and Walter as brothers
>> of his mother Herleve, sons of her father Fulbert, see table 6. The
>> names Osbern and Walter were common enough that the most prominent
>> bearers are not necessarily the relevant or even the likeliest ones in
>> every ducal context.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
>
>
> Hi Peter. It’s good to hear from you and thank you for responding. Your reaction to the following note is also very appreciated. For context, my interest in the pedigree of the first Walter Giffard results from the numerous occurrences of Walter and his progeny in context (feudal associations, charter co-witnesses, offices, etc) suggestive of paternal kinship with the progeny of Turquetil de Tourville, son of Torf. Let’s separately address the two topics:
>
> [1] Who is the avunculus Walter (older male relative) of Duke William?
> [2] Was Turquetil de Tourville potentially the father of the first Walter Giffard?
>
> Your reply is with respect to the second question, but let’s proceed with the first and separately address the second. A very exciting work in progress concerns William Pictavensis aka William of Poitiers, undoubtedly an extremely near relation and possibly the father of Ralph Grammaticus I, paternal ancestor of myself and many team members at https://groups.io/g/crispincousins. A leading expert concerning William Pictavensis is R.H.C. Davis, author of "from Alfred the Great to Stephen." Davis teamed up with Marjorie Chibnall, who specializes in translations of Latin, which she terms a highly fluid language. Together, they translated the work of William of Poitiers, which unfortunately exists as a single copy missing the first and last pages.

There is far too much homespun fiction in your posting to tackle every
bit of misinformation in it, but for the record Davis did not "team up"
with Chibnall to translate William of Poitiers (who was a priest trained
in that place, hence bynamed 'Pictavensis', not the father of anyone).
Davis made a literal translation of William's 'Gesta Guillelmi' from the
early-17th-century edition by Duchesne, and after Davis' death Chibnall
(without the aid of psychic teamwork) revised and rewrote this for
publication.

Peter Stewart