I thought I remembered seeing some discussion of David Camerons
descent from William III when he became PM [now FS] but I cant
find any sign of it. Maybe it was on another site but I recall William
had at least 10 illegitimate children and that 1 of his mistresses was
a west indian woman. Has anyone actually researched any lines from
William III? As royal bastards are usually a fertile area for imaginative
descents, is they any authority on both the hanoverians and their
predecessors, stuarts and tudors?

Mike

On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 7:17:25 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
> I thought I remembered seeing some discussion of David Camerons
> descent from William III when he became PM [now FS] but I cant
> find any sign of it. Maybe it was on another site but I recall William
> had at least 10 illegitimate children and that 1 of his mistresses was
> a west indian woman. Has anyone actually researched any lines from
> William III? As royal bastards are usually a fertile area for imaginative
> descents, is they any authority on both the hanoverians and their
> predecessors, stuarts and tudors?

Wrong king. Cameron's descent is from William IV, who indeed had 10 bastards by his mistress, actress 'Mrs Jordan' (a stage name, born Dorothea Bland).. The 'West Indian mistress' attribution probably also applies to him and not William III, as he commanded HMS Pegasus on the West Indies station and interacted with the planter society there.

From Wikipedia:
William IV by Dorothea Bland (Mrs Jordan)
Elizabeth FitzClarence
Agnes Duff, Countess of Fife
Stephanie Agnes Cooper
Enid Agnes Maud Levita
Ian Donald Cameron
David Cameron

William III does not seem to have any confirmed bastards, and only one reputed mistress, Elizabeth Villiers, later Countess of Orkney.

In the 1960s, Walter Lee Sheppard published a series of three articles ("Royal Bye-Blows" in their title) in NEHGR that addressed the claimed illegitimate children of the English and Scottish monarchs through the Stuarts. About 15 years ago, Alison Weir published a book, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy" that addresses the various claimed bastards as well as the legitimate children.

taf

On 24-Nov-23 3:44 AM, taf wrote:
> On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 7:17:25 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
>> I thought I remembered seeing some discussion of David Camerons
>> descent from William III when he became PM [now FS] but I cant
>> find any sign of it. Maybe it was on another site but I recall William
>> had at least 10 illegitimate children and that 1 of his mistresses was
>> a west indian woman. Has anyone actually researched any lines from
>> William III? As royal bastards are usually a fertile area for imaginative
>> descents, is they any authority on both the hanoverians and their
>> predecessors, stuarts and tudors?
>
> Wrong king. Cameron's descent is from William IV, who indeed had 10 bastards by his mistress, actress 'Mrs Jordan' (a stage name, born Dorothea Bland). The 'West Indian mistress' attribution probably also applies to him and not William III, as he commanded HMS Pegasus on the West Indies station and interacted with the planter society there.
>
> From Wikipedia:
> William IV by Dorothea Bland (Mrs Jordan)
> Elizabeth FitzClarence
> Agnes Duff, Countess of Fife
> Stephanie Agnes Cooper
> Enid Agnes Maud Levita
> Ian Donald Cameron
> David Cameron
>
> William III does not seem to have any confirmed bastards, and only one reputed mistress, Elizabeth Villiers, later Countess of Orkney.
>
> In the 1960s, Walter Lee Sheppard published a series of three articles ("Royal Bye-Blows" in their title) in NEHGR that addressed the claimed illegitimate children of the English and Scottish monarchs through the Stuarts. About 15 years ago, Alison Weir published a book, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy" that addresses the various claimed bastards as well as the legitimate children.

Better than this:

Peter Beauclerk-Dewar and Roger Powell, 'Royal Bastards: Illegitimate
Children of the British Family' (Stroud, 2008).

Better yet for medieval bastards:

Sara McDougall, 'Royal Bastards: The Birth of Illegitimacy, 800-1230',
Oxford Studies in Medieval European History series (Oxford, 2017)

and

Chris Given-Wilson & Alice Curteis, 'The Royal Bastards of Medieval
England' (London, 1984).

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 2:00:22 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 24-Nov-23 3:44 AM, taf wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 7:17:25 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
> >> I thought I remembered seeing some discussion of David Camerons
> >> descent from William III when he became PM [now FS] but I cant
> >> find any sign of it. Maybe it was on another site but I recall William
> >> had at least 10 illegitimate children and that 1 of his mistresses was
> >> a west indian woman. Has anyone actually researched any lines from
> >> William III? As royal bastards are usually a fertile area for imaginative
> >> descents, is they any authority on both the hanoverians and their
> >> predecessors, stuarts and tudors?
> >
> > Wrong king. Cameron's descent is from William IV, who indeed had 10 bastards by his mistress, actress 'Mrs Jordan' (a stage name, born Dorothea Bland). The 'West Indian mistress' attribution probably also applies to him and not William III, as he commanded HMS Pegasus on the West Indies station and interacted with the planter society there.
> >
> > From Wikipedia:
> > William IV by Dorothea Bland (Mrs Jordan)
> > Elizabeth FitzClarence
> > Agnes Duff, Countess of Fife
> > Stephanie Agnes Cooper
> > Enid Agnes Maud Levita
> > Ian Donald Cameron
> > David Cameron
> >
> > William III does not seem to have any confirmed bastards, and only one reputed mistress, Elizabeth Villiers, later Countess of Orkney.
> >
> > In the 1960s, Walter Lee Sheppard published a series of three articles ("Royal Bye-Blows" in their title) in NEHGR that addressed the claimed illegitimate children of the English and Scottish monarchs through the Stuarts. About 15 years ago, Alison Weir published a book, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy" that addresses the various claimed bastards as well as the legitimate children.
> Better than this:
>
> Peter Beauclerk-Dewar and Roger Powell, 'Royal Bastards: Illegitimate
> Children of the British Family' (Stroud, 2008).
>
> Better yet for medieval bastards:
>
> Sara McDougall, 'Royal Bastards: The Birth of Illegitimacy, 800-1230',
> Oxford Studies in Medieval European History series (Oxford, 2017)
>
> and
>
> Chris Given-Wilson & Alice Curteis, 'The Royal Bastards of Medieval
> England' (London, 1984).

I knew about the Given-Wilson one but had forgotten. The McDougall one just turned up on a text search I did a few weeks ago, but Google Books was not letting me see enough to get a feel for how far from a generalized discussion of the social phenomenon it went. The Beauclerk-Dewar and Powell one I was unaware of, but certainly it has to be more serious than Weir's style of popular history research. The last thing I looked up in her work unknowingly split a single person into siblings in one place, while presenting her/them as a unified individual on a different page, unrecognized because she used different century-old secondary sources for the two identifiable from the content given, though not cited).

taf

On 24-Nov-23 9:35 AM, taf wrote:
> On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 2:00:22 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 24-Nov-23 3:44 AM, taf wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 7:17:25 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
>>>> I thought I remembered seeing some discussion of David Camerons
>>>> descent from William III when he became PM [now FS] but I cant
>>>> find any sign of it. Maybe it was on another site but I recall William
>>>> had at least 10 illegitimate children and that 1 of his mistresses was
>>>> a west indian woman. Has anyone actually researched any lines from
>>>> William III? As royal bastards are usually a fertile area for imaginative
>>>> descents, is they any authority on both the hanoverians and their
>>>> predecessors, stuarts and tudors?
>>>
>>> Wrong king. Cameron's descent is from William IV, who indeed had 10 bastards by his mistress, actress 'Mrs Jordan' (a stage name, born Dorothea Bland). The 'West Indian mistress' attribution probably also applies to him and not William III, as he commanded HMS Pegasus on the West Indies station and interacted with the planter society there.
>>>
>>> From Wikipedia:
>>> William IV by Dorothea Bland (Mrs Jordan)
>>> Elizabeth FitzClarence
>>> Agnes Duff, Countess of Fife
>>> Stephanie Agnes Cooper
>>> Enid Agnes Maud Levita
>>> Ian Donald Cameron
>>> David Cameron
>>>
>>> William III does not seem to have any confirmed bastards, and only one reputed mistress, Elizabeth Villiers, later Countess of Orkney.
>>>
>>> In the 1960s, Walter Lee Sheppard published a series of three articles ("Royal Bye-Blows" in their title) in NEHGR that addressed the claimed illegitimate children of the English and Scottish monarchs through the Stuarts. About 15 years ago, Alison Weir published a book, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy" that addresses the various claimed bastards as well as the legitimate children.
>> Better than this:
>>
>> Peter Beauclerk-Dewar and Roger Powell, 'Royal Bastards: Illegitimate
>> Children of the British Family' (Stroud, 2008).
>>
>> Better yet for medieval bastards:
>>
>> Sara McDougall, 'Royal Bastards: The Birth of Illegitimacy, 800-1230',
>> Oxford Studies in Medieval European History series (Oxford, 2017)
>>
>> and
>>
>> Chris Given-Wilson & Alice Curteis, 'The Royal Bastards of Medieval
>> England' (London, 1984).
>
> I knew about the Given-Wilson one but had forgotten.

It is fairly forgettable, though not as purposefully so as any book by
Alison Weir.

The McDougall one just turned up on a text search I did a few weeks ago,
but Google Books was not letting me see enough to get a feel for how far
from a generalized discussion of the social phenomenon it went.

The chapter headings may give a clearer impression:

1. The Language of Illegitimacy in Medieval Europe
2. The Carolingian Example: The Sons of Concubines
3. Illegitimacy and the Making of Medieval Dynasties c.900-c.1050
4. Maternal Lineage and Anglo-Norman Succession c.950-c.1150
5. Canon Law, Canonists, and Bastards in the World of Ivo of Chartres
6. Redefining Marriage and Legitimacy c.1140-1200: Ideas and Practices
7. Royal Bastards of the Twelfth Century: The Monk-King of Aragon’s
Daughter, the Abbess-Countess of Boulogne’s Daughter, and Tancred of Lecce
8. Illegitimacy and Legitimation in the Thirteenth Century: Pope
Innocent III, King Philip II, and Emperor Frederick II
9. Scandal in Jerusalem: Royal Succession and Illegitimacy
10. Saint Fernando III: The Bastard King of León

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 4:01:05 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart wrote:
> The McDougall one just turned up on a text search I did a few weeks ago,
> but Google Books was not letting me see enough to get a feel for how far
> from a generalized discussion of the social phenomenon it went.
> The chapter headings may give a clearer impression:

Using a broad definition of what constitutes bastardy, if some of the titles are any indication.

> 4. Maternal Lineage and Anglo-Norman Succession c.950-c.1150

> 7. Royal Bastards of the Twelfth Century: The Monk-King of Aragon’s
> Daughter . . .
(this is what I stumbled upon, seeking any recent scholarship about a [falsely claimed] bastard of the other Ramiro II)

> 10. Saint Fernando III: The Bastard King of León

taf

On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 10:00:22 PM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 24-Nov-23 3:44 AM, taf wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 7:17:25 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
> >> I thought I remembered seeing some discussion of David Camerons
> >> descent from William III when he became PM [now FS] but I cant
> >> find any sign of it. Maybe it was on another site but I recall William
> >> had at least 10 illegitimate children and that 1 of his mistresses was
> >> a west indian woman. Has anyone actually researched any lines from
> >> William III? As royal bastards are usually a fertile area for imaginative
> >> descents, is they any authority on both the hanoverians and their
> >> predecessors, stuarts and tudors?
> >
> > Wrong king.

no wonder i couldnt find any ref to william III

> >Cameron's descent is from William IV, who indeed had 10 bastards by his mistress, actress 'Mrs Jordan' (a stage name, born Dorothea Bland).

its a wonder she had any time act if all 10 were hers. were they all called Fitzclarence?

> >The 'West Indian mistress' attribution probably also applies to him and not William III, as he commanded HMS Pegasus on the West Indies station and interacted with the planter society there.
> >
> > From Wikipedia:
> > William IV by Dorothea Bland (Mrs Jordan)
> > Elizabeth FitzClarence
> > Agnes Duff, Countess of Fife
> > Stephanie Agnes Cooper
> > Enid Agnes Maud Levita
> > Ian Donald Cameron
> > David Cameron
> >
> > William III does not seem to have any confirmed bastards, and only one reputed mistress, Elizabeth Villiers, later Countess of Orkney.
> >
> > In the 1960s, Walter Lee Sheppard published a series of three articles ("Royal Bye-Blows" in their title) in NEHGR that addressed the claimed illegitimate children of the English and Scottish monarchs through the Stuarts. About 15 years ago, Alison Weir published a book, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy" that addresses the various claimed bastards as well as the legitimate children.
> Better than this:
>
> Peter Beauclerk-Dewar and Roger Powell, 'Royal Bastards: Illegitimate
> Children of the British Family' (Stroud, 2008).
>
> Better yet for medieval bastards:
>
> Sara McDougall, 'Royal Bastards: The Birth of Illegitimacy, 800-1230',
> Oxford Studies in Medieval European History series (Oxford, 2017)
>
> and
>
> Chris Given-Wilson & Alice Curteis, 'The Royal Bastards of Medieval
> England' (London, 1984).
>
> Peter Stewart
>
thanks to both of you. My interest was who many lines persist to present day.
Apart from William IV, i was wondering if someone had traced the lines
from Charles IIs many bastards, eg Lennox, Mary Tudor rather than just a general study.
Also the cases of Richard Fitzroy [son of king john] and Arthur Plantagenet [Lisle],
who i think have both been discussed before.

Mike

On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 8:20:11 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:

> thanks to both of you. My interest was who many lines persist to present day.
> Apart from William IV, i was wondering if someone had traced the lines
> from Charles IIs many bastards, eg Lennox, Mary Tudor rather than just a general study.
> Also the cases of Richard Fitzroy [son of king john] and Arthur Plantagenet [Lisle],
> who i think have both been discussed before.

Though individual lines have garnered attention (e.g. Lady Di's descent from Charles II), I am unaware of any systematic study of descendants via illegitimate children. Perhaps the Royal Bastards (don't remember their formal name - the society for those with proven descent from illegitimate children of British monarchs) have done some work on this, to streamline evaluation of membership applications.

taf

On 25-Nov-23 3:20 AM, mike davis wrote:
> On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 10:00:22 PM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 24-Nov-23 3:44 AM, taf wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 7:17:25 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
>>>> I thought I remembered seeing some discussion of David Camerons
>>>> descent from William III when he became PM [now FS] but I cant
>>>> find any sign of it. Maybe it was on another site but I recall William
>>>> had at least 10 illegitimate children and that 1 of his mistresses was
>>>> a west indian woman. Has anyone actually researched any lines from
>>>> William III? As royal bastards are usually a fertile area for imaginative
>>>> descents, is they any authority on both the hanoverians and their
>>>> predecessors, stuarts and tudors?
>>>
>>> Wrong king.
>
> no wonder i couldnt find any ref to william III
>
>>> Cameron's descent is from William IV, who indeed had 10 bastards by his mistress, actress 'Mrs Jordan' (a stage name, born Dorothea Bland).
>
> its a wonder she had any time act if all 10 were hers. were they all called Fitzclarence?

Yes, and before partnering with William (later IV as king) she already
had three other daughters who were brought up along with the
Fitzclarence brood of 5 sons and 5 daughters. There are plenty of
descendants today.

William also had at least one illegitimate son by another woman
(unknown), his eldest child, William Henry Courtney. He was lost at sea
as a midshipman on the Blenheim in 1807, aged around 18. He was first
fully identified by Hugh Owen in 'The sailor king's lost sailor son', in
*The Mariner's Mirror* 82 (1996).

>>> The 'West Indian mistress' attribution probably also applies to him and not William III, as he commanded HMS Pegasus on the West Indies station and interacted with the planter society there.
>>>
>>> From Wikipedia:
>>> William IV by Dorothea Bland (Mrs Jordan)
>>> Elizabeth FitzClarence
>>> Agnes Duff, Countess of Fife
>>> Stephanie Agnes Cooper
>>> Enid Agnes Maud Levita
>>> Ian Donald Cameron
>>> David Cameron
>>>
>>> William III does not seem to have any confirmed bastards, and only one reputed mistress, Elizabeth Villiers, later Countess of Orkney.
>>>
>>> In the 1960s, Walter Lee Sheppard published a series of three articles ("Royal Bye-Blows" in their title) in NEHGR that addressed the claimed illegitimate children of the English and Scottish monarchs through the Stuarts. About 15 years ago, Alison Weir published a book, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy" that addresses the various claimed bastards as well as the legitimate children.
>> Better than this:
>>
>> Peter Beauclerk-Dewar and Roger Powell, 'Royal Bastards: Illegitimate
>> Children of the British Family' (Stroud, 2008).
>>
>> Better yet for medieval bastards:
>>
>> Sara McDougall, 'Royal Bastards: The Birth of Illegitimacy, 800-1230',
>> Oxford Studies in Medieval European History series (Oxford, 2017)
>>
>> and
>>
>> Chris Given-Wilson & Alice Curteis, 'The Royal Bastards of Medieval
>> England' (London, 1984).
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
> thanks to both of you. My interest was who many lines persist to present day.
> Apart from William IV, i was wondering if someone had traced the lines
> from Charles IIs many bastards, eg Lennox, Mary Tudor rather than just a general study.
> Also the cases of Richard Fitzroy [son of king john] and Arthur Plantagenet [Lisle],
> who i think have both been discussed before.

I am told that the book I cited by Beauclerk-Dewar and Powell was also
published under the title *Right Royal Bastards: The Fruits of Passion*
(2006). Beauclerk-Dewar also co-wrote (with Donald Adamson) *The House
of Nell Gwynn: The Fortunes of the Beauclerk Family, 1670-1974* .

You may find useful references in the latest study I know of, *Charles
II’s Illegitimate Children: Royal Bastards* by Sarah-Beth Watkins (2023).

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 9:40:14 PM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 25-Nov-23 3:20 AM, mike davis wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 10:00:22 PM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
> >> On 24-Nov-23 3:44 AM, taf wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 7:17:25 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
> >>>> I thought I remembered seeing some discussion of David Camerons
> >>>> descent from William III when he became PM [now FS] but I cant
> >>>> find any sign of it. Maybe it was on another site but I recall William
> >>>> had at least 10 illegitimate children and that 1 of his mistresses was
> >>>> a west indian woman. Has anyone actually researched any lines from
> >>>> William III? As royal bastards are usually a fertile area for imaginative
> >>>> descents, is they any authority on both the hanoverians and their
> >>>> predecessors, stuarts and tudors?
> >>>
> >>> Wrong king.
> >
> > no wonder i couldnt find any ref to william III
> >
> >>> Cameron's descent is from William IV, who indeed had 10 bastards by his mistress, actress 'Mrs Jordan' (a stage name, born Dorothea Bland).
> >
> > its a wonder she had any time act if all 10 were hers. were they all called Fitzclarence?
> Yes, and before partnering with William (later IV as king) she already
> had three other daughters who were brought up along with the
> Fitzclarence brood of 5 sons and 5 daughters. There are plenty of
> descendants today.
>
> William also had at least one illegitimate son by another woman
> (unknown), his eldest child, William Henry Courtney. He was lost at sea
> as a midshipman on the Blenheim in 1807, aged around 18. He was first
> fully identified by Hugh Owen in 'The sailor king's lost sailor son', in
> *The Mariner's Mirror* 82 (1996).
> >>> The 'West Indian mistress' attribution probably also applies to him and not William III, as he commanded HMS Pegasus on the West Indies station and interacted with the planter society there.
> >>>
> >>> From Wikipedia:
> >>> William IV by Dorothea Bland (Mrs Jordan)
> >>> Elizabeth FitzClarence
> >>> Agnes Duff, Countess of Fife
> >>> Stephanie Agnes Cooper
> >>> Enid Agnes Maud Levita
> >>> Ian Donald Cameron
> >>> David Cameron
> >>>
> >>> William III does not seem to have any confirmed bastards, and only one reputed mistress, Elizabeth Villiers, later Countess of Orkney.
> >>>
> >>> In the 1960s, Walter Lee Sheppard published a series of three articles ("Royal Bye-Blows" in their title) in NEHGR that addressed the claimed illegitimate children of the English and Scottish monarchs through the Stuarts. About 15 years ago, Alison Weir published a book, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy" that addresses the various claimed bastards as well as the legitimate children.
> >> Better than this:
> >>
> >> Peter Beauclerk-Dewar and Roger Powell, 'Royal Bastards: Illegitimate
> >> Children of the British Family' (Stroud, 2008).
> >>
> >> Better yet for medieval bastards:
> >>
> >> Sara McDougall, 'Royal Bastards: The Birth of Illegitimacy, 800-1230',
> >> Oxford Studies in Medieval European History series (Oxford, 2017)
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >> Chris Given-Wilson & Alice Curteis, 'The Royal Bastards of Medieval
> >> England' (London, 1984).
> >>
> >> Peter Stewart
> >>
> > thanks to both of you. My interest was who many lines persist to present day.
> > Apart from William IV, i was wondering if someone had traced the lines
> > from Charles IIs many bastards, eg Lennox, Mary Tudor rather than just a general study.
> > Also the cases of Richard Fitzroy [son of king john] and Arthur Plantagenet [Lisle],
> > who i think have both been discussed before.
> I am told that the book I cited by Beauclerk-Dewar and Powell was also
> published under the title *Right Royal Bastards: The Fruits of Passion*
> (2006). Beauclerk-Dewar also co-wrote (with Donald Adamson) *The House
> of Nell Gwynn: The Fortunes of the Beauclerk Family, 1670-1974* .
>
> You may find useful references in the latest study I know of, *Charles
> II’s Illegitimate Children: Royal Bastards* by Sarah-Beth Watkins (2023).
> Peter Stewart
>

Thanks, those all sound like excellent places to start.

Mike

On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 8:20:54 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
> On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 9:40:14 PM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 25-Nov-23 3:20 AM, mike davis wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 10:00:22 PM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > >> On 24-Nov-23 3:44 AM, taf wrote:
> > >>> On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 7:17:25 AM UTC-8, mike davis wrote:
> > >>>> I thought I remembered seeing some discussion of David Camerons
> > >>>> descent from William III when he became PM [now FS] but I cant
> > >>>> find any sign of it. Maybe it was on another site but I recall William
> > >>>> had at least 10 illegitimate children and that 1 of his mistresses was
> > >>>> a west indian woman. Has anyone actually researched any lines from
> > >>>> William III? As royal bastards are usually a fertile area for imaginative
> > >>>> descents, is they any authority on both the hanoverians and their
> > >>>> predecessors, stuarts and tudors?
> > >>>
> > >>> Wrong king.
> > >
> > > no wonder i couldnt find any ref to william III
> > >
> > >>> Cameron's descent is from William IV, who indeed had 10 bastards by his mistress, actress 'Mrs Jordan' (a stage name, born Dorothea Bland).
> > >
> > > its a wonder she had any time act if all 10 were hers. were they all called Fitzclarence?
> > Yes, and before partnering with William (later IV as king) she already
> > had three other daughters who were brought up along with the
> > Fitzclarence brood of 5 sons and 5 daughters. There are plenty of
> > descendants today.
> >
> > William also had at least one illegitimate son by another woman
> > (unknown), his eldest child, William Henry Courtney. He was lost at sea
> > as a midshipman on the Blenheim in 1807, aged around 18. He was first
> > fully identified by Hugh Owen in 'The sailor king's lost sailor son', in
> > *The Mariner's Mirror* 82 (1996).
> > >>> The 'West Indian mistress' attribution probably also applies to him and not William III, as he commanded HMS Pegasus on the West Indies station and interacted with the planter society there.
> > >>>
> > >>> From Wikipedia:
> > >>> William IV by Dorothea Bland (Mrs Jordan)
> > >>> Elizabeth FitzClarence
> > >>> Agnes Duff, Countess of Fife
> > >>> Stephanie Agnes Cooper
> > >>> Enid Agnes Maud Levita
> > >>> Ian Donald Cameron
> > >>> David Cameron
> > >>>
> > >>> William III does not seem to have any confirmed bastards, and only one reputed mistress, Elizabeth Villiers, later Countess of Orkney.
> > >>>
> > >>> In the 1960s, Walter Lee Sheppard published a series of three articles ("Royal Bye-Blows" in their title) in NEHGR that addressed the claimed illegitimate children of the English and Scottish monarchs through the Stuarts. About 15 years ago, Alison Weir published a book, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy" that addresses the various claimed bastards as well as the legitimate children.
> > >> Better than this:
> > >>
> > >> Peter Beauclerk-Dewar and Roger Powell, 'Royal Bastards: Illegitimate
> > >> Children of the British Family' (Stroud, 2008).
> > >>
> > >> Better yet for medieval bastards:
> > >>
> > >> Sara McDougall, 'Royal Bastards: The Birth of Illegitimacy, 800-1230',
> > >> Oxford Studies in Medieval European History series (Oxford, 2017)
> > >>
> > >> and
> > >>
> > >> Chris Given-Wilson & Alice Curteis, 'The Royal Bastards of Medieval
> > >> England' (London, 1984).
> > >>
> > >> Peter Stewart
> > >>
> > > thanks to both of you. My interest was who many lines persist to present day.
> > > Apart from William IV, i was wondering if someone had traced the lines
> > > from Charles IIs many bastards, eg Lennox, Mary Tudor rather than just a general study.
> > > Also the cases of Richard Fitzroy [son of king john] and Arthur Plantagenet [Lisle],
> > > who i think have both been discussed before.
> > I am told that the book I cited by Beauclerk-Dewar and Powell was also
> > published under the title *Right Royal Bastards: The Fruits of Passion*
> > (2006). Beauclerk-Dewar also co-wrote (with Donald Adamson) *The House
> > of Nell Gwynn: The Fortunes of the Beauclerk Family, 1670-1974* .
> >
> > You may find useful references in the latest study I know of, *Charles
> > II’s Illegitimate Children: Royal Bastards* by Sarah-Beth Watkins (2023).
> > Peter Stewart
> >
> Thanks, those all sound like excellent places to start.
>
> Mike

test