On 28-Nov-23 5:19 AM, Wibs wrote:
> Could someone confirm if the following date (on a tombstone) says that he died on the 4 October 1400 (or is it 1401)?
>
> Vicerat Octobris quem nece quarta dies. A quadringentis vno quoque mille sub annis Christi post ortum terra recepit eum

4 October 1399 (literally "from 400 one").

Peter Stewart

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On 28-Nov-23 10:46 PM, Wibs wrote:
> On Monday, 27 November 2023 at 22:00:23 UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 28-Nov-23 5:19 AM, Wibs wrote:
>>> Could someone confirm if the following date (on a tombstone) says that he died on the 4 October 1400 (or is it 1401)?
>>>
>>> Vicerat Octobris quem nece quarta dies. A quadringentis vno quoque mille sub annis Christi post ortum terra recepit eum
>> 4 October 1399 (literally "from 400 one").
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
>
> Thanks for that Peter.
>
> Just adds to my confusion though, as the man in question, John Innocent, made his will in 1401 and it was proved a few days later (TNA: PROB 11/2A/6)

It's mystifying why you would ask if the inscription says he died on 4
October 1400 knowing that he made his will in 1401.

>
> He asked that he be buried in Edmonton church, and the block tomb was covered with an inscribed lid, which said:
>
> Ista facerdotis INNOCENT est tumba Iohannis
>
> Vicerat Octobris quem nece quarta dies. A quadringentis vno quoque mille sub annis Christi post ortum terra recepit eum. Hunc bini reges, Henricus et ante Richardus Subthesaurarium regni statuere fidelem
>
> Donet rex celi gaudia Christ e fibi.
>
> So definitely the right man, but tomb and will dates don't add up :(

They add up to his death on 4 October 1401, obviously. The composer of
the inscription must have taken "a quadringentis uno" (literally "from
400 one", as noted) to mean "from 400 [onwards] one" rather than "from
400 [subtracted] one" as I supposed. By this time the use of Latin was
becoming rather affected, into virtual telegraphese, with locutions
overweighted and distorted as in the mottoes of many English families.
Other information, such as you already had, can be a clearer guide to
sense than the bare wording.

Peter Stewart

On 28-Nov-23 11:28 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 28-Nov-23 10:46 PM, Wibs wrote:
>> On Monday, 27 November 2023 at 22:00:23 UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>> On 28-Nov-23 5:19 AM, Wibs wrote:
>>>> Could someone confirm if the following date (on a tombstone) says
>>>> that he died on the 4 October 1400 (or is it 1401)?
>>>>
>>>> Vicerat Octobris quem nece quarta dies. A quadringentis vno quoque
>>>> mille sub annis Christi post ortum terra recepit eum
>>> 4 October 1399 (literally "from 400 one").
>>>
>>> Peter Stewart
>>>
>>> --
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>>> www.avg.com
>>
>> Thanks for that Peter.
>>
>> Just adds to my confusion though, as the man in question, John
>> Innocent, made his will in 1401 and it was proved a few days later
>> (TNA: PROB 11/2A/6)
>
> It's mystifying why you would ask if the inscription says he died on 4
> October 1400 knowing that he made his will in 1401.
>
>
>>
>> He asked that he be buried in Edmonton church, and the block tomb was
>> covered with an inscribed lid, which said:
>>
>> Ista facerdotis INNOCENT est tumba Iohannis
>>
>> Vicerat Octobris quem nece quarta dies. A quadringentis vno quoque
>> mille sub annis Christi post ortum terra recepit eum. Hunc bini reges,
>> Henricus et ante Richardus Subthesaurarium regni statuere fidelem
>>
>> Donet rex celi gaudia Christ e fibi.
>>
>> So definitely the right man, but tomb and will dates don't add up :(
>
> They add up to his death on 4 October 1401, obviously. The composer of
> the inscription must have taken "a quadringentis uno" (literally "from
> 400 one", as noted) to mean "from 400 [onwards] one" rather than "from
> 400 [subtracted] one" as I supposed. By this time the use of Latin was
> becoming rather affected, into virtual telegraphese, with locutions
> overweighted and distorted as in the mottoes of many English families.
> Other information, such as you already had, can be a clearer guide to
> sense than the bare wording.

According to https://www.jstor.org/stable/557961:

p. 668 - "John Innocent ... had been employed at the Receipt as early as
1368 and remained clerk until at least February 1401 ... The normal
clerk of the treasurer, such as John Innocent, is first found as an
under-clerk, and then successively as clerk of the Receipt and clerk of
the treasurer."

p. 669 - "Orgrave and Innocent held the office between them for
thirty-three years (1368-1401) ... John Innocent was replaced in the
spring or summer of 1401. He may have died then, because he was
certainly dead by 11 May 1402, or he may have retired when John Norbury
gave up the treasurership to Lawrence de Allerthorpe on 31 May 1401."

Peter Stewart

On 28-Nov-23 10:46 PM, Wibs wrote:
> On Monday, 27 November 2023 at 22:00:23 UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 28-Nov-23 5:19 AM, Wibs wrote:
>>> Could someone confirm if the following date (on a tombstone) says that he died on the 4 October 1400 (or is it 1401)?
>>>
>>> Vicerat Octobris quem nece quarta dies. A quadringentis vno quoque mille sub annis Christi post ortum terra recepit eum
>> 4 October 1399 (literally "from 400 one").
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
>
> Thanks for that Peter.
>
> Just adds to my confusion though, as the man in question, John Innocent, made his will in 1401 and it was proved a few days later (TNA: PROB 11/2A/6)
>
> He asked that he be buried in Edmonton church, and the block tomb was covered with an inscribed lid, which said:
>
> Ista facerdotis INNOCENT est tumba Iohannis
>
> Vicerat Octobris quem nece quarta dies. A quadringentis vno quoque mille sub annis Christi post ortum terra recepit eum. Hunc bini reges, Henricus et ante Richardus Subthesaurarium regni statuere fidelem
>
> Donet rex celi gaudia Christ e fibi.

If you are going to present the biography of John Innocent in print or
online, the text of his epitaph needs some corrections - it should be
set out in lines and spelled as follows (punctuation added by me for
clarity):

Ista sacerdotis Innocent est tumba Iohannis.
Vicerat Octobris quem nece quarta dies
A quadringentis uno quoque mille sub annis
Christi post ortum terra recepit eum.
Hunc bini reges Henricus et ante Richardus
Sub thesaurarium regni statuere fidelem,
Donet rex celi gaudia Christe sibi.

Peter Stewart